[mattyb]

Sometimes its hard to know when Capital Punishment should be used.

This isn't one of those times.

Words fail me.

[Oisín]

That is appalling.

So is (but on a much, much smaller scale, of course) this thread being in the Lounge. Moving to PWL.

[Doofy]

Nah. Still not down with the capital punishment. Too easy.
Beating the crap out of him times a day for the rest of his life? That I'm down with.

[ghporter]

I have to agree with Doofy on this; it would be infinitely more satisfying to me on an emotional level for this guy to have to endure a sample of the suffering he inflicted. Then the adult part kicks in and says that not only is that an immature impulse, it's really impractical, and it would be difficult to properly administer without actually "accidentally" killing the guy.

On the other hand, a minimum of 24 years of incarceration simply doesn't seem like enough. Nowhere near enough. This isn't even a case of the guy having terrible self control and "snapping" after the baby cries too often and too loudly. That sort of thing is known as the "live in boyfriend syndrome" around here, and we have an unfortunate history of seeing just how that works. No, this is a case of sadistic actions against a completely defenseless individual.

Do they still have steamrollers in the UK? Not "diesel powered road roller," but a real, steam powered roller/compactor... I'm thinking of something that's not nearly as fast as lethal injection, but much more satisfying for other reasons as well... Oops! Bad monkey! That was another immature impulse.

In another situation where capital punishment was in question, Steven Hayes was sentenced to die for the slaying/torture/rape of a woman and her two daughters in a home invasion. The problem? He wants to die. I think there's a good argument for not executing him. Make him live with his acts, live with his conscience, for an extended period. Maybe solitary confinement for 20 years... Just a thought.

[Athens]

Pretty much the same feelings as Doofy and phporter. I like to ad that no system is perfect either and while this is a clear cut and dry case others are not and mistakes happen. The problem with capital punishment is that its kinda permanent. You can't exactly undo it when a mistake is made or worse a fraud is uncovered. Some people have gone to jail that seemed to be pretty clear of a guilty sentence then only years later new evidence shows it was a frame or setup. It should never be allowed for any one as long as its possible to make mistakes. And its to much of a easy way out.

The article didn't say exactly what his sentence is such as life. He is just not eligible for parole for 24 years. If the UK system is similar to Canada's and it should be since ours is based off it they can keep denying him for life due to the nature of the crime.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I have to agree with Doofy on this; it would be infinitely more satisfying to me on an emotional level for this guy to have to endure a sample of the suffering he inflicted. Then the adult part kicks in and says that not only is that an immature impulse, it's really impractical, and it would be difficult to properly administer without actually "accidentally" killing the guy.

Nah man. They could have it televised on Saturday night TV, scheduled right in between "Z-List-Factor" and "Britain Hasn't Got Talent". With Ant and Dec presenting. And a phone vote on who was the best "punisher".

You really should try to lose that "adult" bit Glenn, especially over the Christmas season.

I mean, just think of the possibilities. Sharks, oubliettes, big sticks with rusty nails, Lady Gaga on repeat play, etc., etc..

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Do they still have steamrollers in the UK? Not "diesel powered road roller," but a real, steam powered roller/compactor...

There's a few still knocking about. I'm not sure their owners would appreciate bits of this scum on their nice, polished roller though.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Athens 

The article didn't say exactly what his sentence is such as life. He is just not eligible for parole for 24 years. If the UK system is similar to Canada's and it should be since ours is based off it they can keep denying him for life due to the nature of the crime.

In special cases like this it's usually down to the Home Secretary to decide whether the guy ever gets out. I don't think he will.
Check Ian Brady for an example.

[OAW]

A kid man? If the death penalty is going to be imposed here's a case where it certainly seems appropriate. Having said that … as a matter of public policy the criminal justice system is too error prone and filled with a history of bias for me to support capital punishment. At least in the US. Can't speak for the other side of the pond.

OAW

[hayesk]

I agree with Doofy - until we have a perfect justice system (i.e. never) then we can't put people to death without being as bad as the people we kill.

Although I must say, it's difficult to hold that position after reading about this guy.

[andi*pandi]

Usually I don't agree with the death penalty for all the above reasons, but Matty is right, this case is so crystal clear I'd be perfectly ok with hanging. Wasting tax dollars (or pounds) on his upkeep is an insult. I hope he gets beat up in prison and has an accident.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Eesh. Just when you think human beings can't get any more f'ed up.

In that creep's case, I agree with life in prison. He doesn't deserve a quick, merciful execution.

It seems child abusers (let alone infant murderers) don't make out too well in prison. Even among the worst scum on earth, aholes like that rank lowest of the low. He should spend every remaining moment of his miserable life feeling as helpless, preyed upon and abused by 99% of the other prison population as what he visited on that baby.

[Jawbone54]

I'm not an advocate for the death penalty (though I've vacillated on this opinion a time or two), but I do have a suggestion concerning the handling of all child molesters/abusers/killers:

When they bring them into the prison, announce publicly to all the inmates what brought them there.

[besson3c]

I'm all for the death penalty. Life might be spiritually sacred, but it is also biologically cheap and financially expensive to support. I mean, other than the satisfaction of him suffering with life in prison, why should tax payers continue to keep him alive? Just kill him and be done with it.

[mattyb]

The trouble is, 20 years after the fact, somebody ends up feeling sorry for the guy and lets him out. It happened with certain Nazis, it can easily happen with child killers/torturers. While I agree that our justice systems are completely screwed up (US and UK) this seems pretty clear that he is the culprit.

Apologies that I posted in the Lounge, it was a bit late here.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

You really should try to lose that "adult" bit Glenn, especially over the Christmas season.

I'll work on that. Problem is that I'm supposed to "be an example," and that interferes with self expression. Long habit, that sort of thing.

I could also point out to steam roller owners that hardened steel is really easy to clean up. Again just a thought...

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I'm all for the death penalty. Life might be spiritually sacred, but it is also biologically cheap and financially expensive to support. I mean, other than the satisfaction of him suffering with life in prison, why should tax payers continue to keep him alive? Just kill him and be done with it.

In cases like this one, I have to admit I agree.

Life may be sacred, but it’s not so sacred we don’t run around taking it away from each other every day anyway. And in cases like this, I see absolutely no benefit from a prolonged incarceration—it’s a waste of money, administration, space, and resources. Just removing him from the face of the earth is both cheaper and safer for society. Keeping someone locked up just to be able to feel vengeful is hardly productive. Why would you want to continue feeling vengeful for such a long time?

The really difficult part—and the reason I remain, in practice, against capital punishment in general—is deciding when a case is clear enough to warrant this.

[olePigeon]

This happened yesterday. Some guy just grabbed a little girl in the middle of a store and began raping her. Just out of the blue.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

This happened yesterday. Some guy just grabbed a little girl in the middle of a store and began raping her. Just out of the blue.

Props to the two bystanders for the level of restraint they showed.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Props to the two bystanders for the level of restraint they showed.

Seriously. I'd probably be in jail right now after smashing that 's head in with a frying pan.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

The really difficult part—and the reason I remain, in practice, against capital punishment in general—is deciding when a case is clear enough to warrant this.

I've thought a new legal standard "beyond a shadow of doubt" could be generated. Another idea I've heard is that if you're going for the death penalty, you shouldn't be able to suppress evidence. Personally, I'd want both.

I don't have any problem with killing people, only killing the wrong people. There's a moratorium on the death penalty where I live because it came to light just how many times innocent people ended up getting executed.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

In special cases like this it's usually down to the Home Secretary to decide whether the guy ever gets out. I don't think he will.
Check Ian Brady for an example.

Are you sure of that? From the article you linked to:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Less than two weeks after Hindley's death, on 25 November 2002, the Law Lords agreed that judges, not politicians, should decide how long a criminal spends behind bars, and thus stripped the Home Secretary of the power to set minimum sentences.

[BadKosh]

"Braveheart" him!

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

This happened yesterday. Some guy just grabbed a little girl in the middle of a store and began raping her. Just out of the blue.

WHAT the... ?!?? A 2 year old??? A TWO YEAR OLD??? I mean, I can sort of understand why someone would target, say, a 15 year old, as they're nearly grown, but it takes an especially sick, twisted individual to do that to an infant. Damn.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Nah man. They could have it televised on Saturday night TV, scheduled right in between "Z-List-Factor" and "Britain Hasn't Got Talent". With Ant and Dec presenting. And a phone vote on who was the best "punisher".

Give me the Justice Department, Entertainment Division!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Person Man 

Are you sure of that?

Yep. That's referring to minimum sentences (given at time of conviction). As far as I'm aware, if someone's got life every so often they'll come up for parole, at which point the Home Secretary says "yay" or "nay".

[finboy]

Originally Posted by hayesk 

I agree with Doofy - until we have a perfect justice system (i.e. never) then we can't put people to death without being as bad as the people we kill.

Although I must say, it's difficult to hold that position after reading about this guy.

Whatever. The problem with the criminal justice system is that we don't kill enough of these bastards - show people consequences for their actions. Plus, who wants to warehouse these pieces of sh*t? Harvest their organs, for God's sake.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by finboy 

Whatever. The problem with the criminal justice system is that we don't kill enough of these bastards - show people consequences for their actions. Plus, who wants to warehouse these pieces of sh*t? Harvest their organs, for God's sake.

The problem comes when you kill someone who was not guilty of the crimes of which they were convicted.

You'd also think that if God cared, he wouldn't let a 2-year-old get raped in a grocery store.

[andi*pandi]

Damn freaks out there...

[finboy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

The problem comes when you kill someone who was not guilty of the crimes of which they were convicted.

You'd also think that if God cared, he wouldn't let a 2-year-old get raped in a grocery store.

I know, I know. It's one of those "ethical dilemmas" that you guys are always on about.

I know there's error, but when there isn't, we should fry these sick bastards.

Just to show everyone what could happen to them if they decided to act on the weird, Satanic voices inside their heads.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by finboy 

Just to show everyone what could happen to them if they decided to act on the weird, Satanic voices inside their heads.

Yeah, because people listening to weird Satanic voices in their heads always consider the possible repercussions before acting.

Of all the possible examples to use, you try to tie logic with the crazies? Or are you implying we all have weird, Satanic voices in our heads?

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Of all the possible examples to use, you try to tie logic with the crazies? Or are you implying we all have weird, Satanic voices in our heads?

His decisions are based on testimonies from playboy models, logic has nothing to do with it.

Not to mention that it was God, not Satan, that ordered the murder of infants, children, and helpless people.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

The problem comes when you kill someone who was not guilty of the crimes of which they were convicted.

You'd also think that if God cared, he wouldn't let a 2-year-old get raped in a grocery store.

Originally Posted by finboy 

I know, I know. It's one of those "ethical dilemmas" that you guys are always on about.

I know there's error, but when there isn't, we should fry these sick bastards.

Just to show everyone what could happen to them if they decided to act on the weird, Satanic voices inside their heads.

There's no ethical dilemma involved when someone who has been violent before and who intentionally avoids treatment or counseling goes out and commits more crimes. Satanic voices usually go away with the correct meds, and in fact a whole lot of people who are schizophrenic KNOW that the voices are unreal-at least at the beginning, and definitely when they're taking their meds. More modern meds are also without the sedating, "zombifying" side effects of old meds. They work, as long as they're taken. Someone who says "satan made me do it" and who has a history of being treated for such things - but quit treatments - has no ethical leg to stand on. Their act of stopping therapy (meds or counseling) is the step that they take, on purpose, to go back to their uncontrolled behaviors. "Not responsible?" Yes, they are.

[turtle777]

I say fry him.

Why should society pay for his life sentence?
Prisons are expensive these days.

-t

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I say fry him.

Why should society pay for his life sentence?
Prisons are expensive these days.

-t

So is Death Row - death sentences pretty much automatically get appealed, and then the prosecutors have to get paid to work on it

[Chongo]

The death penalty is not meant to be a deterrent. It's to keep dirt bags from repeating their heinous acts.
If there was anyone deserving of the death penalty it was Ted Bundy. After he escaped, (more than once) he was finally apprehended in Florida, but not before he raped and killed several more women.

[OAW]

Actually life in prison w/o the possibility of parole is much cheaper than death row. It may not be as "emotionally satisfying" as an execution in situations like this ... but it is undeniably the smarter thing to do from a financial perspective.

OAW

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

The death penalty is not meant to be a deterrent.

This is certainly right - and, in general, I think most people who study these things agree that "harsher" sentences are not more of a deterrence, in general.

Which makes sense.

greg

[olePigeon]

Thunderdome!

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

The problem comes when you kill someone who was not guilty of the crimes of which they were convicted.

You'd also think that if God cared, he wouldn't let a 2-year-old get raped in a grocery store.

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

His decisions are based on testimonies from playboy models, logic has nothing to do with it.

Not to mention that it was God, not Satan, that ordered the murder of infants, children, and helpless people.

You're reeeeally trying to bring religion into this, aren't you?

[The Final Dakar]

Not exactly. He just likes to take cheap shots where he sees them.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Actually life in prison w/o the possibility of parole is much cheaper than death row.

No, it depends how long he's on death row.

With a clear conviction, there's no reason to drag it out. Why the hell the US takes 20 years or more to execute someone is beyond me. Be sure and do it right away, or convert to life sentence if there is any doubt.

-t

[OAW]

I understand where you are coming from Turtle. But most states have mandatory appeals for capital cases. So "getting it over with" just isn't going to happen. Then when you factor in the the slew of exonerations in recent years based on DNA evidence … a "swift and speedy execution" simply becomes one of those things that sounds good in theory.

OAW

[Shaddim]

I see sh*t like that and I start to doubt my stance against capital punishment.

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

I'm not an advocate for the death penalty (though I've vacillated on this opinion a time or two), but I do have a suggestion concerning the handling of all child molesters/abusers/killers:

When they bring them into the prison, announce publicly to all the inmates what brought them there.

Then I see comments like this and I feel better, because I know there's a more satisfying way of handling these "people".

Yes, the inmates will find out what he did. Yes, people like this get what's coming to them in the showers. Often.

[tightsocks]

You guys think that you are being tough with the whole, 'shower justice thing?'

Who is going to be doing the beatin' and rapin'? It's the other inmates...

Those inmates are just as guilty as all of their fellow convicts. So, you want to have some guy who murdered your grandmother having a grand time in the shower giving the other guys what they 'deserve."

But, then where is the justice for your murdered grandma? Her killer is living it up everyday having his way with the other inmates...

Doesn't sound like a very 'get tough' policy to me.

[imitchellg5]

If you like beating a baby to death, you're probably not going to mind being raped in the shower...

[Athens]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

No, it depends how long he's on death row.

With a clear conviction, there's no reason to drag it out. Why the hell the US takes 20 years or more to execute someone is beyond me. Be sure and do it right away, or convert to life sentence if there is any doubt.

-t

How many dozens of people have been let go from Death Row because they where found to be innocent. That long time period is actually saving lives from mistakes.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Athens 

How many dozens of people have been let go from Death Row because they where found to be innocent. That long time period is actually saving lives from mistakes.

Like I said, if there is no hard evidence, make it a life sentence.

Only give capital punishment when there is absolutely no reasonable doubt.

-t

[Athens]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Like I said, if there is no hard evidence, make it a life sentence.

Only give capital punishment when there is absolutely no reasonable doubt.

-t

But many of these people did get capital punishment and there was absolutely no reasonable doubt at the time. Does not change the fact some one can be setup for a crime get the death penalty then later the truth bleeds out. Its very rare that its 100% positive

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Its very rare that its 100% positive

Here's the first example that came to mind for which we have 100% positive proof:



Perfect conditions for the DP, although lethal injection is too humane for him, IMO. Far too humane.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by OAW 

A kid man? If the death penalty is going to be imposed here's a case where it certainly seems appropriate. Having said that … as a matter of public policy the criminal justice system is too error prone and filled with a history of bias for me to support capital punishment. At least in the US. Can't speak for the other side of the pond.

OAW

What he said ^