Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

Click170 · Dec 21, 2010, 08:10 PM

Given The Crusades, the Vatican's position that condoms are bad, their despicable position on homosexuality, and their flagrant human rights violations, I submit that Christianity is not a force for good in the world.

olePigeon · Dec 21, 2010, 08:13 PM

I'd say it's a mixed bag. There are a lot of charities and organizations run via churches that do a lot of good. However, I find that religion in general (and not Christianity or Islam specifically) causes more harm than good.

imitchellg5 · Dec 21, 2010, 08:16 PM

The Catholic Church does not equal Christianity.

Click170 · Dec 21, 2010, 08:16 PM

Oh, I forgot to mention the widespread pedophilia as well as the complicity with said acts from high-ranking members of the Church itself.

The Pope himself is accused of masterminding the Catholic Church sex abuse cover-up.

Doofy · Dec 21, 2010, 08:23 PM

Yer Catholic kiddie-fiddling rate is actually lower than the general population's.
Granted, it shouldn't happen at all, but let's not twist the facts

Can we have some kind of newb introduction pack so we don't have to go over the same thing month in month out?

Demonhood · Dec 21, 2010, 08:23 PM

Is this some ploy to get us to watch those Intelligence Squared debates?

Click170 · Dec 21, 2010, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

The Catholic Church does not equal Christianity.

Granted, I don't spend my time studying these things, but I don't see a huge difference here aside from one being a church and the other being a group of people that attend that church and follow it's teachings.
If that's not what you meant, then how do you delineate the two?

Click170 · Dec 21, 2010, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Demonhood

Is this some ploy to get us to watch those Intelligence Squared debates?

lmao
No, but admittedly it is where I got the idea for the title.

Click170 · Dec 21, 2010, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Yer Catholic kiddie-fiddling rate is actually lower than the general population's.
Granted, it shouldn't happen at all, but let's not twist the facts

Can we have some kind of newb introduction pack so we don't have to go over the same thing month in month out?

Do excuse me for not taking your assertion at face value, but can you present studies that show this? Any citations of any kind for that matter? Google is failing at helping me find these references...

Doofy · Dec 21, 2010, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by Click170

Do excuse me for not taking your assertion at face value, but can you present studies that show this? Any citations of any kind for that matter?

Yes, just go Google it.

You're going to have to learn how to research your topics if you're gonna stand any chance in the pol lounge, dude. Seriously.

imitchellg5 · Dec 21, 2010, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by Click170

Granted, I don't spend my time studying these things, but I don't see a huge difference here aside from one being a church and the other being a group of people that attend that church and follow it's teachings.
If that's not what you meant, then how do you delineate the two?

The Catholic church denies the deity of Christ. The Christian church says that the only thing in between you and God is sin, not hundreds of saints and Jesus's mom that you have to pray through. The Catholic church is also one institution, the Christian church has many different variations, but they still all believe in the deity of Christ.

Click170 · Dec 21, 2010, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Yes, just go Google it.

You're going to have to learn how to research your topics if you're gonna stand any chance in the pol lounge, dude. Seriously.

Fair enough, I haven't given up looking.
That said, your unwillingness to prove your own point is.. disheartening to say the least. Kind of leads me to believe you don't believe the very posts your making..

imitchellg5 · Dec 21, 2010, 08:30 PM

Ha ha. Uncle Doof knows best, Click.

Athens · Dec 21, 2010, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by Click170

Given The Crusades, the Vatican's position that condoms are bad, their despicable position on homosexuality, and their flagrant human rights violations, I submit that Christianity is not a force for good in the world.

Any religion is what its followers make it out to be. Sadly any religion is easily corrupted for those same reasons.

Athens · Dec 21, 2010, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

The Catholic Church does not equal Christianity.

What is it then Muslim?

Click170 · 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Yes, just go Google it.

You're going to have to learn how to research your topics if you're gonna stand any chance in the pol lounge, dude. Seriously.

Fair enough, but your going to have to learn to cite your sources if you expect me to take you seriously.

You make claims, and when asked to present evidence, mock the asker. Bravo, you've made the most convincing argument EVAR!

Never-the-less, my continued googling has found this little gem;

In a statement read out by Archbishop Silvano Maria Tomasi in September 2009, the Holy See stated "We know now that in the last 50 years somewhere between 1.5% and 5% of the Catholic clergy has been involved in sexual abuse cases", adding that this figure was comparable with that of other groups and denominations.[10] A Perspective on Clergy Sexual Abuse by Dr. Thomas Plante of Stanford University and Santa Clara University states that "approximately 4% of priests during the past half century (and mostly in the 1960s and 1970s) have had a sexual experience with a minor" which "is consistent with male clergy from other religious traditions and is significantly lower than the general adult male population which may double these numbers".[11][12] Additionally, according to Newsweek magazine, the figure in the Catholic Church is similar to that in the rest of the adult population.[13]

Ok, first of all, "May"? Thats the best they can do?
Doesn't sound like much of a qualifier to me.
Secondly, if that _is_ what your referring to when you said

Originally Posted by Doofy

Yer Catholic kiddie-fiddling rate is actually lower than the general population's.
Granted, it shouldn't happen at all, but let's not twist the facts

Can we have some kind of newb introduction pack so we don't have to go over the same thing month in month out?

Then I have to ask: Do you realize that the very next sentence is this:

However, statistics from the US Department of Health an Human Services show that this figure was less than 0,2% for the rest of the population of the US during the last decade.[14][15]

imitchellg5 · Dec 21, 2010, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

What is it then Muslim?

Um, Catholicism?

Click170 · Dec 21, 2010, 08:53 PM

Oh, and the source of that excerpt is this;
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ope_and_nature

See, citation.

It wasn't even that hard either!

Athens · Dec 21, 2010, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Can we have some kind of newb introduction pack so we don't have to go over the same thing month in month out?

There are only so many topics to pick from. Fresh versions of old topics allows for fresh ideas and fresh debate. Would you prefer bumping up old threads? Let me know, there is about 200 dating back all the way to 2003 I have interest in, I'll start bumping them up right away.

Athens · Dec 21, 2010, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Yes, just go Google it.

You're going to have to learn how to research your topics if you're gonna stand any chance in the pol lounge, dude. Seriously.

Its up to the poster to provide the facts for his claims not the reader. If I had to google for the facts of every persons claims on the PL I would be at my computer for 200 years lol

Athens · 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

Um, Catholicism?

What book does Catholicism use? Sorry I didn't know it was a totally separate religion. I thought it was a branch of Christianity and used the Holly Bible.

lpkmckenna · Dec 21, 2010, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

The Catholic church denies the deity of Christ.

Ha ha ha ha, no.

The Christian church says that the only thing in between you and God is sin, not hundreds of saints and Jesus's mom that you have to pray through.

You don't have to "pray thru" Mary and the saints. Asking saints to pray for you is no different that asking other people to pray for you. Besides, "the communion of saints" is a part of the Apostle's Creed. Don't you agree with the Creed?

/ex-Catholic. Amazed at the stupid things non-Catholics believe about Catholicism.

imitchellg5 · Dec 21, 2010, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

What book does Catholicism? Sorry I didn't know it was a totally separate religion. I thought it was a branch of Christianity and used the Holly Bible.

They have the Bible, but also include the Apocrypha and Septuagint as canon.

imitchellg5 · Dec 21, 2010, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

Ha ha ha ha, no.
You don't have to "pray thru" Mary and the saints. Asking saints to pray for you is no different that asking other people to pray for you. Besides, "the communion of saints" is a part of the Apostle's Creed. Don't you agree with the Creed?

/ex-Catholic. Amazed at the stupid things non-Catholics believe about Catholicism.

Okay, so you don't "have" to pray to Mary, but the idea that you can communicate with those in heaven and they petition to God on your behalf certainly isn't a part of Christianity. The nearly outright worship of Mary is enough in my mind to break the Catholic tradition of no God besides the Trinity. You won't find anybody in the modern Christian church praying to a dead person or asking a dead person to pray for you, they are gone and unreachable. Why wouldn't you just pray directly to God? And no, I don't agree with that part of the Creed.

Click170 · 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

The Catholic Church does not equal Christianity.

So just to clarify, are you saying that The Vatican's decrees aren't [intended to be?] followed by Christians?
I ask honestly because I want to understand your objection so that we can continue the discussion.

If we're all caught up on the Catholic v Christian thing then we're not debating if Christianity is a force for good in the world.

Athens · Dec 21, 2010, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

They have the Bible, but also include the Apocrypha and Septuagint as canon.

I'll have to look into Apocrypha and Septuagint, honestly don't know much about it. I never spent a lot of time figuring out the smaller differences between all the different Christian religions just like I haven't bothered to look up all the differences between all the Muslim religions.

Its one of the reasons why I could never understand the violence in Ireland between the 2 types of Catholics.

imitchellg5 · Dec 21, 2010, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by Click170

So just to clarify, are you saying that The Vatican's decrees aren't [intended to be?] followed by Christians?

I'm sure the Pope would love for everyone who calls themselves a Christian to follow his decrees and abandon condoms. But Protestants such as myself couldn't care less about the Pope; he's clearly disconnected from the reality of the world, but I'm sure that sitting on a chair worth millions of dollars in a multi-billion dollar mansion classified as its own country will do that.

SpaceMonkey · Dec 21, 2010, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by Click170

If we're all caught up on the Catholic v Christian thing then we're not debating if Christianity is a force for good in the world.

And we should be worrying about this because...?

imitchellg5 · Dec 21, 2010, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

I'll have to look into Apocrypha and Septuagint, honestly don't know much about it. I never spent a lot of time figuring out the smaller differences between all the different Christian religions just like I haven't bothered to look up all the differences between all the Muslim religions.

Its one of the reasons why I could never understand the violence in Ireland between the 2 types of Catholics.

The Septuagint is basically just a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, but it does have some content that isn't considered canon by Protestants. The Apocrypha is considered by most to be useful text, but it's hard to establish validity for all of it and thus is not to be used as a single basis for doctrine. There simply isn't the evidence of manuscripts that is available behind the Gospels.

The violence in Ireland is more political than anything, simply hundreds of years of Anglican Parliaments passing law to repress Catholicism (the religion of England's greatest hatreds, Spain and France), even though the Anglican Church is just Catholicism lite.

imitchellg5 · Dec 21, 2010, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey

And we should be worrying about this because...?

I don't think the Catholic church is a force for good, but I think that the Christian church is. But the discussion is all my fault, sorry.

lpkmckenna · Dec 21, 2010, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

Okay, so you don't "have" to pray to Mary, but the idea that you can communicate with those in heaven and they petition to God on your behalf certainly isn't a part of Christianity.

Be honest: it's a part of some denominations of Christianity and not others.

The nearly outright worship of Mary is enough in my mind to break the Catholic tradition of no God besides the Trinity.

I was a Catholic for 20 years. I never met a Catholic who worshipped Mary. Read the Hail Mary: the first half is a quote from Luke, the second half is a request for Mary to pray for us. That's not worship.

...they are gone and unreachable.

How do you know that?

Why wouldn't you just pray directly to God?

Catholics do pray to God. They also ask living people and departed people to pray for them. It's not an either/or situation.

And no, I don't agree with that part of the Creed.

The Creed is the definitive statement of Christian belief. If you don't agree with it, maybe you aren't a "real Christian." I have no problem saying Mormons or JWs aren't Christians because their doctrines defy the Creed.

lpkmckenna · Dec 21, 2010, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Click170

So just to clarify, are you saying that The Vatican's decrees aren't [intended to be?] followed by Christians?
I ask honestly because I want to understand your objection so that we can continue the discussion.

Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity. There are many, many denominations. All Catholics are Christian, not all Christians are Catholic. It's a dogs :: poodles kind of thing.

I think you need to learn a little more about Christianity before you're ready to debate the bigger issues.

imitchellg5 · Dec 21, 2010, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

Be honest: it's a part of some denominations of Christianity and not others.
I was a Catholic for 20 years. I never met a Catholic who worshipped Mary. Read the Hail Mary: the first half is a quote from Luke, the second half is a request for Mary to pray for us. That's not worship.

Prayer isn't worship?

How do you know that?

The Bible always refers to the idea of communion with saints in the future-tense.

Catholics do pray to God. They also ask living people and departed people to pray for them. It's not an either/or situation.

But if you're praying to God, and God is the only diety, why is there any need to ask dead people to pray for you? Or why can't I ask God himself for forgiveness of sin instead of going through a priest at confession?

The Creed is the definitive statement of Christian belief. If you don't agree with it, maybe you aren't a "real Christian." I have no problem saying Mormons or JWs aren't Christians because their doctrines defy the Creed.

I would consider the Nicene Creed to be a stronger statement of Christian belief. The Apostolic Creed leaves out the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. But I also don't think that any man-made Creed can be authoritative.

SpaceMonkey · Dec 21, 2010, 10:08 PM

I think we can agree that poodle worship is wrong, though.

Click170 · Dec 21, 2010, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

...
Its one of the reasons why I could never understand the violence in Ireland between the 2 types of Catholics.

I'm not sure that's what the conflic in Ireland is about...
Northern Ireland Conflict Briefing
Correct me if I'm wrong...

SpaceMonkey · Dec 21, 2010, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

Prayer isn't worship?

No. If you ask someone else to pray for you, are you worshiping them? It seems pretty straightforward to me.

imitchellg5 · Dec 21, 2010, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by Click170

I'm not sure that's what the conflic in Ireland is about...
Northern Ireland Conflict Briefing
Correct me if I'm wrong...

That's within a modern context, but this conflict goes back centuries. Read Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" to understand the gravity of the situation in the 1700s.

Click170 · Dec 21, 2010, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey

And we should be worrying about this because...?

First of all, "worrying" seems like the wrong word.
Secondly, um, it's the topic of the thread...

imitchellg5 · Dec 21, 2010, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey

No. If you ask someone else to pray for you, are you worshiping them? It seems pretty straightforward to me.

No, I mean the act of praying to a deity.

SpaceMonkey · Dec 21, 2010, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

No, I mean the act of praying to a deity.

Granted, for this to make sense you have to buy in to the Catholic Church's hierarchical depiction of heaven and the afterlife, but it's consistent within that framework. Catholics believe that Mary as a deity has a particular relationship with God, so it makes sense to address her in that context. There is no belief that she has any kind of power other than communing with God (a capability theoretically available to all of us). I don't see it as fundamentally different from praying with your friends here on Earth.

I find the objection to this idea puzzling, because it's not like protestant denominations deny the existence of deities (broadly defined as supernatural beings) other than God (e.g. Satan and the angels).

Athens · Dec 21, 2010, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

I'm sure the Pope would love for everyone who calls themselves a Christian to follow his decrees and abandon condoms. But Protestants such as myself couldn't care less about the Pope; he's clearly disconnected from the reality of the world, but I'm sure that sitting on a chair worth millions of dollars in a multi-billion dollar mansion classified as its own country will do that.

Tax free million dollar chair and tax free billion dollar mansion

Gotta love religious exemptions. Donations hard at work

imitchellg5 · Dec 21, 2010, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey

Granted, for this to make sense you have to buy in to the Catholic Church's hierarchical depiction of heaven and the afterlife, but it's consistent within that framework. Catholics believe that Mary as a deity has a particular relationship with God, so it makes sense to address her in that context. There is no belief that she has any kind of power other than communing with God.

I find the objection to this idea puzzling, because it's not like protestant denominations deny the existence of deities (broadly defined as supernatural beings) other than God (e.g. Satan and the angels).

I'm using the dictionary definition of deity, which is basically an all-powerful being, which Satan and angels are not. Satan and angels exist within boundaries, God has no boundaries.

Athens · Dec 21, 2010, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

I don't think the Catholic church is a force for good, but I think that the Christian church is. But the discussion is all my fault, sorry.

I just learned something so i wouldn't say it was wasted post's lol its been more educational then most of the stuff posted here.

SpaceMonkey · Dec 21, 2010, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

I'm using the dictionary definition of deity, which is basically an all-powerful being, which Satan and angels are not. Satan and angels exist within boundaries, God has no boundaries.

The primary dictionary definition of deity (according to the Dashboard app) is "a god or goddess (in a polytheistic religion): a deity of ancient Greece. Using ancient Greece as an example, their deities were neither all-powerful, boundary-less, nor immortal. Angels are deities (god with a small 'g', deity with a small 'd') in the general and more ancient sense of the term. They are not God (the Deity), obviously.

Anyway, my point is that virtually all denominations of Christianity recognize the existence of supernatural actors that interact with God in various ways. Harping on the fact that Catholics institutionalize their recognition of this more than most seems like a minor issue in the grand scheme of things. Of course they do. It doesn't seem like a huge theological break though.

SpaceMonkey · Dec 21, 2010, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Click170

First of all, "worrying" seems like the wrong word.
Secondly, um, it's the topic of the thread...

I dislike the topic. But my answer to the question is yes.

turtle777 · Dec 21, 2010, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by Click170

The Pope himself is accused of masterminding the Catholic Church sex abuse cover-up.

Which one ?

-t

Click170 · Dec 21, 2010, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

Which one ?

-t

Not one, all of them.

To quote Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' | News

In 2001, while he [Ratzinger] was a cardinal, he issued a secret Vatican edict to Catholic bishops all over the world, instructing them to put the Church's interests ahead of child safety.

Sealobo · Dec 22, 2010, 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by Click170

Given The Crusades, the Vatican's position that condoms are bad, their despicable position on homosexuality, and their flagrant human rights violations, I submit that Christianity is not a force for good in the world.

religion is politics.

there is no good or bad in politics. it's just endless power struggle.

church attendance in Europe is reaching new low i heard.

olePigeon · Dec 22, 2010, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Yes, just go Google it.

You're going to have to learn how to research your topics if you're gonna stand any chance in the pol lounge, dude. Seriously.

Originally Posted by Click170

Fair enough, I haven't given up looking.
That said, your unwillingness to prove your own point is.. disheartening to say the least. Kind of leads me to believe you don't believe the very posts your making..

Don't, it's a trap. No matter of evidence will change his mind.

Jawbone54 · Dec 22, 2010, 01:23 AM

People who are truly Christian in their behavior are always a force for good in the world.

Whether you're an atheist, agnostic, or follower of another religion, you know a true Christian when you meet them.