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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Cover-up worse than the crime?

Cover-up worse than the crime? (Page 7)
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OAW
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Mar 10, 2011, 06:14 PM
 
So Stupdendousman ....

Are you going to put your "money" where your mouth is or what? What say you? Obama on the ballot in all 50 states or not?

OAW
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 06:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
So Stupdendousman ....

Are you going to put your "money" where your mouth is or what? What say you? Obama on the ballot in all 50 states or not?

OAW
I'm not a betting man. It doesn't matter what the subject is.

While I suspect that there is no "long form" on file with the State of Hawaii (meaning that he did not tell the truth about his birth), I wouldn't be willing to bet on that either.

Gambling is not one of my vices.
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 06:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
It's that sort of argument is what rates as getting "pwned" around here, I'm not sure some of you guys are worth the trouble. I'll debate my 5 year old daughter instead.
At least she's not old enough to smell your bullshit.
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 06:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
At least she's not old enough to smell your bullshit.
She can smell fine and is in good health.

She at least knows enough not to call people names when she can't win an argument. I taught her that, but I understand that often times you can't teach "old dogs" new tricks.
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 06:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
I'm not a betting man. It doesn't matter what the subject is.

While I suspect that there is no "long form" on file with the State of Hawaii (meaning that he did not tell the truth about his birth), I wouldn't be willing to bet on that either.

Gambling is not one of my vices.
Uh huh .... figured as much.

OAW
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 06:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
It's not a matter of guilt or innocence. It's a matter of qualifications and verifying them. A refusal to allow this to happen to a reasonable extent infers that the person in question is hiding something, and the issue would seem to rationally require additional investigation.
His Certificate of Live Birth was the qualification. Everything else is griping and hoping.
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 06:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
She at least knows enough not to call people names when she can't win an argument.
I didn't call you a name, I said your argument is bullshit, and it is.

Obama provided what lawfully is enough to qualify him for the seat of President. Nutters and Whackos continue to push for 'better' qualifications which have not been deemed necessary by anyone that matters.

If anything I've said is false please let me know.
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 09:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
His Certificate of Live Birth was the qualification. Everything else is griping and hoping.
Same as the brother and sister with the marriage license, or the guy with the acceptance letter from Harvard but no diploma. We know.
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 09:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
I didn't call you a name, I said your argument is bullshit, and it is.
You called (and still call) people who have reasonable expectations for honesty and openness"Nutters and Whackos" even though many of them are being much more reasonable than Obama.

If anything I've said is false please let me know.
See above. It's been shown that Obama's "proof" of qualification doesn't actually prove qualification. If he's qualified, there should be a document on file with the State of Hawaii that proves it. Obama refuses to ask for it's release. The "Nutters and Whackos" aren't forcing him at gunpoint to keep hiding this. He's choosing to do it on his own.

A man who was born in the State of Hawaii shouldn't have anything to fear in regards to his qualifications if this document is on record with the state. The only rational reason that anyone has been able to come up with for not doing so is that it doesn't exist, and he lied about the circumstances regarding his birth.

Doesn't seem like that "whacko" or "nutty" of a premise. If you can figure out how it is, let us know. We've had lots of claims of this, but not a lot of intellectual back up to convince anyone with half a brain.
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 05:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
I'll debate my 5 year old daughter instead.
Now you're talking.
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 11:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Same as the brother and sister with the marriage license, or the guy with the acceptance letter from Harvard but no diploma. We know.
English please?
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 12:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
English please?
"Married Siblings" argument. It's already been offered and refuted soundly. Look through the thread if you've missed it.
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 12:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
"Married Siblings" argument. It's already been offered and refuted soundly. Look through the thread if you've missed it.
Less dickish please?
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 12:29 PM
 
Chronic hysteresis.
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 12:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
English please?
Translation: the birthers have come up with another likely scenario as a means to justify their belief in that Obama lacks natural born status. Ultimately, it centers around their need to believe that a certificate of live birth can be obtained through government ineptitude.
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 12:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Less dickish please?
Read the thread.

I don't think that declining an offer to repost a rebuttal of the same circular argument that's been offered over and over, and rebutted over and over, is being "dickish." It's being effective at good time management.
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 12:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Chronic hysteresis.
Broken Recorditis.
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 12:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Read the thread.

I don't think that declining an offer to repost a rebuttal of the same circular argument that's been offered over and over, and rebutted over and over, is being "dickish." It's being effective at good time management.
The tone is dickish. And if you're really into time management, you wouldn't take the time to keep responding to what you consider a waste of time.

Speaking of time management, I don't have the time to wade through seven pages hoping to find the one post you're referring to when you know what I'm looking for and link to it.
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 12:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Broken Recorditis.
exactly.
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 12:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Translation: the birthers have come up with another likely scenario as a means to justify their belief in that Obama lacks natural born status. Ultimately, it centers around their need to believe that a certificate of live birth can be obtained through government ineptitude.
It's not a "need to believe."

The relevant law which only requires evidence of a year of residency in Hawaii has already been posted. You can believe that the law in question that was provided was not the standard if you choose, and whether you blame Hawaii's lack of due dillegence on ineptitude, or trying to do the best they could given tough circumstances is up to you. The fact remains that the only legal requirement needed to get the document in question was not enough to be granted United States citizenship according to the laws at the time.

Again, instead of refuting the facts, we just get lame attacks.
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 01:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
The tone is dickish. And if you're really into time management, you wouldn't take the time to keep responding to what you consider a waste of time.
I'm really only responding to new information or arguments. If my tone is "dickish," it's because I get tired of people pretending that a point hasn't been refuted or haven't taken the time to read a thread to know it has. I'm looking for new information or an argument that doesn't have a lot of irrational holes in it. The "married siblings" defense doesn't meet those guidelines.

Speaking of time management, I don't have the time to wade through seven pages hoping to find the one post you're referring to when you know what I'm looking for and link to it.
There's a search engine at the top of the page. Take the phrase I gave and do a search. It takes seconds. I wouldn't expect as much if it were not for the fact that the same point has been given and rebutted on just about every page of this topic, giving way to the "broken recorditis."
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 01:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
whether you blame Hawaii's lack of due dillegence on ineptitude
Uh, far as I recall, none of the states questioned the authenticity of Obama's birth certificate. So either that 50 examples of a lack of due dillegence on ineptitude, or your standard for proof of citizenship is different than the state governments.
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 01:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
I'm really only responding to new information or arguments. If my tone is "dickish," it's because I get tired of people pretending that a point hasn't been refuted or haven't taken the time to read a thread to know it has.
It's not pretending if you haven't followed the entire thread. I'm tired of you pretending like everyone has read the entire thread.

Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
I'm looking for new information or an argument that doesn't have a lot of irrational holes in it. The "married siblings" defense doesn't meet those guidelines.
I haven't mentioned married siblings.

Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
There's a search engine at the top of the page. Take the phrase I gave and do a search. It takes minutes. I wouldn't expect as much if it were not for the fact that the same point has been given and rebutted on just about every page of this topic, giving way to the "broken recorditis."
For not wanting to waste time with a simple link to the rebuttal, you sure do post a lot.
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 01:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's not pretending if you haven't followed the entire thread. I'm tired of you pretending like everyone has read the entire thread.
You don't have to read the entire thread. In fact, if you have just been following since your first post (page 6), you could see just a few posts after yours I offered the following:

We've already went over this line of argument. I referred to it as the "married siblings" rebuttal and it doesn't go towards answering the problem in question.

I will guarantee you that if you've got a brother and sister with different last names, who get a marriage license - if you ask anyone in a "positition of authority" in the matter they'll tell you that the marriage certificate in their possession is all that is required to get legal status as being "married."

The question is, once you find out that lax vetting in getting the document was the reason the status was procurred, and those in question really weren't eligible, does that mean they can keep the status. I know that in this case, the few times I've heard of it happening the answer is "no."
Really, I thought that even if someone hadn't been following, they'd be able to understand that "married siblings" could only get that status if there was lax verification, despite the fact that the agency responsible for giving the status probably followed all relevant laws and procedures in place - same as what was possible for someone getting a Hawaiian COLB and not even being eligible for citizenship. I apparently assumed too much.

If you don't want to read the thread, and don't want to do a search when someone points you in the right direction, I'm not sure why someone should have to waste their time doing the work for you. Seriously. Why should I have to go search for a link when I gave you all the information that was needed for you to figure it out for yourself? What kind of intellectual welfare scheme do we have going on here!?!?!
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 01:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Uh, far as I recall, none of the states questioned the authenticity of Obama's birth certificate.
No one has actually seen Obama's "birth certificate." However, no one reasonable really questioned the Certificate of Live Birth he presented because no one took the time to investigate what was required to get such a document. Now that it's understood that Obama could have not been born in Hawaii and still gotten the COLB he presented, many states are now changing the requirements to ensure that adequate evidence of being naturally born citizen is in place.

So either that 50 examples of a lack of due diligence on ineptitude, or your standard for proof of citizenship is different than the state governments.
See above. No one - not the states, not Journalists, not Congress, took the time to investigate the laws of the State of Hawaii to see what the requirements for the "evidence" Obama supplied really shows. It wasn't until several years later that those kooky "birthers" found additional information that shows a Hawaiian COLB doesn't actually prove that someone was eligible, per the Constitution, to be President. You can blame lack of due diligence, ineptitude, or a massive conspiracy (like the nuttier among the birthers might) for why they didn't do their jobs. The facts are the facts.
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
No one has actually seen Obama's "birth certificate." However, no one reasonable really questioned the Certificate of Live Birth he presented because no one took the time to investigate what was required to get such a document.
I call bullshit. Not even McCain's camp investigated Obama's birth background on a chance they could disqualify him and run unopposed? Fox News wouldn't have dug around?

Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Now that it's understood that Obama could have not been born in Hawaii and still gotten the COLB he presented
That's called a loophole. Whether that's what occurred or not, I think it's noteworthy that by today's standards Obama would be considered a legal citizen.

Anyway, the real point is there is no evidence that Obama was not born in this country and in absence of it there is no reason for him to have to prove anything.

Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
many states are now changing the requirements to ensure that adequate evidence of being naturally born citizen is in place.
Exactly, changing requirements, i.e., according to the law his previous certificate met all requirements. And how many have followed through thus far?

Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
See above. No one - not the states, not Journalists, not Congress, took the time to investigate the laws of the State of Hawaii to see what the requirements for the "evidence" Obama supplied really shows. It wasn't until several years later that those kooky "birthers" found additional information that shows a Hawaiian COLB doesn't actually prove that someone was eligible, per the Constitution, to be President. You can blame lack of due diligence, ineptitude, or a massive conspiracy (like the nuttier among the birthers might) for why they didn't do their jobs.
Or you could go by Occam's Razor and accept the simplest answer is the most likely one – they did do their jobs and nothing came up.

Let's see... 50 states, 1 Republican Presidential campaign, and countless news outlets are involved in a mass conspiracy or Obama is a citizen. Tough call.

Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
The facts are the facts.
The facts are that no one has any proof that Obama is not a US Citizen, and as you've alluded to, the real impetus behind wanting to look at his original birth citificate is the hopes of finding something politically damaging, not verifying his qualifications, as the certificate of live birth already meets those needs.
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 11:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I call bullshit. Not even McCain's camp investigated Obama's birth background on a chance they could disqualify him and run unopposed? Fox News wouldn't have dug around?
You can call bullshit all you want. The question is, at the time of the election did ANYONE report the fact that Hawaiian state law (which I cited) only required someone to prove they lived there the past year, to get a COLB?

Did they or didn't they? If they didn't, then there's nothing to "call bullshit" on. The facts are the facts.

Anyway, the real point is there is no evidence that Obama was not born in this country and in absence of it there is no reason for him to have to prove anything.
His grandmother claimed in an interview that he was born in Kenya. After she stated this herself, the person doing the interpreting insisted that she was just mistaken even though she never claims such a thing herself.

Also, there have been witnesses that claim that records in Kenya have details regarding Obama's birth but they are sealed and the fact that we know that there is evidence that his mother traveled overseas not far from the date of Obama's birth.

Of course, you can claim that's all circumstantial, but the fact that these witnesses make these claims, and Obama refuses to ask for the release of his birth certificate, provides reasonable doubt that we know all the information necessary about Obama's birth.

Exactly, changing requirements, i.e., according to the law his previous certificate met all requirements. And how many have followed through thus far?
Don't know. This is all just now being put into play.

Or you could go by Occam's Razor and accept the simplest answer is the most likely one – they did do their jobs and nothing came up.
Already proven false.

The facts are that no one has any proof that Obama is not a US Citizen, and as you've alluded to, the real impetus behind wanting to look at his original birth citificate is the hopes of finding something politically damaging, not verifying his qualifications, as the certificate of live birth already meets those needs.
Facts are that no one has any proof that Obama IS a citizen. The only verifiable evidence that has been given is a document, which according to state law can be gotten from people not born in Hawaii, to parents who are not legally citizens (in other words, not eligible for citizenship).

Not a single hospital record, birth certificate, or even a witness who was there on the day of his birth.

Nada. Nothing. Zip. Only Obama's word, and we know what that is worth.
     
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Mar 12, 2011, 05:47 AM
 
No one cares.
     
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Mar 12, 2011, 09:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
No one cares.
Seven pages, several of which you are a participant, seems to refute your assertion.

No one is forcing you to post.
     
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Mar 12, 2011, 11:49 AM
 
Prediction: stupendousman is not going to be persuaded
     
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Mar 12, 2011, 02:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Seven pages, several of which you are a participant, seems to refute your assertion.

No one is forcing you to post.
I know, but you got to admit, you are the only one pushing it, the rest are just trying to get you to save face.
Hell, I've even been soft on you because, well, it's just so sad.
     
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Mar 12, 2011, 07:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Prediction: stupendousman is not going to be persuaded
By a document anyone could get as long as one parent lived in Hawaii for at least a year and did not require actual proof that the person in question was really born in Hawaii?

If that's the best you have, I think that any reasonable person would understand it's lack of power to persuade.

I asked if there was more, and there really doesn't seem to be anything else. All we know for sure is that one of Obama's parents lived in Hawaii for the year before he was born. That is not enough to be eligible for President, so I'm not sure what I'm going to be persuaded of unless there's something more.

Originally Posted by screener View Post
I know, but you got to admit, you are the only one pushing it, the rest are just trying to get you to save face.
Hell, I've even been soft on you because, well, it's just so sad.
You've been "soft" because that's what your argument is - soft. I was looking for more and no one could rise to the challenge. I was hoping there was info that hadn't already been widely known that would be verifiable. Apparently, there isn't. I don't have to have my face saved when it's everyone else who were not able to rise to the challenge. If you couldn't provide the goods and decided to weigh in, then it's you who should be saving your own face.
     
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Mar 12, 2011, 10:12 PM
 
What challenge? The courts, the Republican party, and even the news agencies (most notably Fox News) don't seem think there's much to risk their reputations on here
     
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Mar 12, 2011, 10:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
What challenge?
The one I gave at the start of the thread.

Can I start giving demerits for not following directions and paying attentions?
     
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Mar 12, 2011, 10:57 PM
 
It looks like my prediction is holding true.

I like being bold like that.
     
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Mar 13, 2011, 07:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
You've been "soft" because that's what your argument is - soft. I was looking for more and no one could rise to the challenge. I was hoping there was info that hadn't already been widely known that would be verifiable. Apparently, there isn't. I don't have to have my face saved when it's everyone else who were not able to rise to the challenge. If you couldn't provide the goods and decided to weigh in, then it's you who should be saving your own face.
So sad, bordering on pathetic.
Can I start giving demerits for not following directions and paying attentions?
You must have a hell of a headache by now.
Give it up,
No one cares.
     
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Mar 13, 2011, 11:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
The one I gave at the start of the thread.
That wasn't a challenge. That was an exercise seeing how blind you could keep yourself from reality while keeping yourself blindfolded by the "facts" generated by WND.

We could travel back in time to the moment of Obama's birth, and you'd still try to find an excuse to claim he wasn't qualified for natural born status.
     
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Mar 13, 2011, 11:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
That wasn't a challenge. That was an exercise seeing how blind you could keep yourself from reality while keeping yourself blindfolded by the "facts" generated by WND.
I'm more than willing to have my eyes opened. I asked for facts and evidence. All I seem to get is the same "married siblings" defense that offers a document that could be gotten by people who did not qualify for US citizenship, according to Hawaiian law. For all your bluster and personal attack, that's the bottom line. You can wave your hands in the air...talk real loud...shake your head in disbelief, but the facts are facts.

We could travel back in time to the moment of Obama's birth, and you'd still try to find an excuse to claim he wasn't qualified for natural born status.
All it would take is for him to release his official birth certificate. I've said that many times. Which part of that don't you understand?

There's a document (or isn't) that would show that he was born in the manner he's claimed, which would settle this matter, and would likely be the only thing that's been offered which is verification that he was born in Hawaii. He refuses to ask for it's release despite the controversy. "Occam's Razor" would seem to suggest that's because it doesn't exist, and if that's the case then he was not born in either of the hospitals that have been suggested as his place of birth. There's a clear reason for disbelief here. If Obama takes that away, then I believe it will be settled. You can stop with your false accusations.
     
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Mar 13, 2011, 11:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
It looks like my prediction is holding true.

I like being bold like that.
What was your prediction? That Obama would continue to hide his birth certificate, and this would continue to be an issue?

Given that no one has really provided any other certifiable evidence, I can't see how such a prediction would be all that impressive.
     
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Mar 13, 2011, 11:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
Give it up,
No one cares.
Keep telling yourself that, and keep posting.
     
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Mar 13, 2011, 01:36 PM
 
Ummmm. This isn't even PWL fodder anymore, guys. If we can get back to discussing issues rather than each other, maybe the thread will survive. Otherwise it's curtains. OK?

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Mar 17, 2011, 08:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Ummmm. This isn't even PWL fodder anymore, guys. If we can get back to discussing issues rather than each other, maybe the thread will survive. Otherwise it's curtains. OK?
Agreed! Thanks!

Now if those fringe kooks would just stop talking about where Obama was born we'd be set!

Trump says he has doubts about Obama’s birth place – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs
     
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Mar 17, 2011, 08:42 PM
 
I think they should make Energizer battery commercials starring stupendousman
     
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Mar 17, 2011, 09:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Agreed! Thanks!

Now if those fringe kooks would just stop talking about where Obama was born we'd be set!

Trump says he has doubts about Obama’s birth place – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs
You mean Donald Trump, potential 2012 Presidential candidate?
     
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Mar 17, 2011, 09:07 PM
 
...
( Last edited by stupendousman; Mar 17, 2011 at 09:40 PM. )
     
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Mar 17, 2011, 10:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I think they should make Energizer battery commercials starring stupendousman
Right next to Summer's Eve commercials starring you.
     
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Mar 17, 2011, 10:38 PM
 
And Preparation H ads starring Crash Harddrive.

Why are you white knighting Stup? Gay crush?
     
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Mar 17, 2011, 10:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
You mean Donald Trump, potential 2012 Presidential candidate?
Is every reality tv star running for the GOP nomination now?
     
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Mar 17, 2011, 10:55 PM
 
Could you guys please follow the request of the administrator and keep the personal stuff out of it?

If people are trying to get the thread locked, I suggest that you might get banned instead.
     
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Mar 17, 2011, 11:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
And Preparation H ads starring Crash Harddrive.

Why are you white knighting Stup? Gay crush?
Using homosexuality as some kind of veiled insult homophobe?
ebuddy
     
 
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