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Wisconsin state politics LOL! (Page 7)
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Mar 9, 2011, 11:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
King's hearings smack of McCarthyism and will only increase the fear and paranoia.
And no comment on the retarded belief that,
McCarthy's critics only wanted him politically dead, King has received an increased number of death threats, enough so that his security detail has been increased.(all homeland security related chairman have them)

Republicans are the party of fear as the Bush years have shown and what has that got you, more fear and paranoia.
Lets see, every election cycle Democrats accuse Republicans of: wanting to starve children(or it's for the kids); pollute the environment; deprive seasoned citizens of their retirement and health care; start WW III, etc.
One of my faves "Republicans Want You To Die Quickly"
Here's a new one:
Democrats Essentially Accuse GOP of Causing Cancer - Peter Roff (usnews.com)
( Last edited by Chongo; Mar 9, 2011 at 02:51 PM. )
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 12:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
King's hearings smack of McCarthyism and will only increase the fear and paranoia.

And no comment on the retarded belief that...

Republicans are the party of fear as the Bush years have shown and what has that got you, more fear and paranoia.

Be like the turtle and retreat into your shell, ignore anything that doesn't fit your view and maybe it'll go away.
How sad.
As for King: I'm not sure how we CAN overstate the fear and paranoia of organized groups who are trying to kill us and end our way of life, and who would kill as many people as it took to be able to do that, I'nsh Allah. So to the extent that King exposes hate and prejudice against ME and MY WAY OF LIFE, I say "rock on." There seem to be plenty of people telling the rest of us that we have to be careful not to "discriminate" against Muslims (CAIR, etc.) when they should be looking inward and making hay with their own "people" (their words). The Muslim modernists should be leading this charge for hearings, trying to get everything into the historical record and out in the open ASAP.

No retreating, I just didn't figure you plan to respond to any response I'd give. Arguing on the Internet is like (to borrow your framing) competing in the Special Olympics - when you're done, even some of the winners are still retarded. Clearly. [That framing is offensive, by the way, and not used in polite discussion. But the IntarWeb is OK.]

There is clearly one group that has been very successful in carving this country up into little tiny groups and then pitting them all against each other for political purposes over the past 5 generations, especially the last 2.

If you think it's the folks on The Right, I suggest that you study up. Don't feel like you're alone; the fact that many people feel the way you do is just more evidence that public schools don't quite work, except for the propaganda aspect. When people can learn & understand nothing, they are apt to believe anything.
( Last edited by finboy; Mar 9, 2011 at 12:40 PM. )
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Mar 9, 2011, 01:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
I'm not sure how we CAN overstate the fear and paranoia of organized groups who are trying to kill us and end our way of life...
That is why you fail.

     
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Mar 9, 2011, 06:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
That is why you fail.
it's not about fear (because fear leads to anger, yada yada) but it's about HEALTHY RESPECT.

And King's hearings are celebrating cultural diversity, I think. After all, don't we WANT to learn about different lifestyles? Isn't that encouraged in a modern, PC world?
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Mar 9, 2011, 07:23 PM
 
I've never understood this "radical Muslims = a threat to me and my way of life" nonsense.

Radical Muslims might harm your safety at best, and might result in the government making further plays to take away liberties in the name of additional security such as airport groping, but our way of life? How in any way is this the case?
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 08:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I've never understood this "radical Muslims = a threat to me and my way of life" nonsense.

Radical Muslims might harm your safety at best, and might result in the government making further plays to take away liberties in the name of additional security such as airport groping, but our way of life? How in any way is this the case?
It's ironic that "taking away liberties" is in no way connected to "threat to me and my way of life" for you.

Seems like you don't treasure liberties and freedom much.

-t
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 08:21 PM
 
The GOP senators in WI have passed a separate bill stripping public employees of their collective bargaining rights. Supposedly because this separate bill was non-financial a lesser number of senators was needed for a quorum, so the absent Democratic senators weren't needed. I have two observations…

1. The fact that this passed in a non-financial bill proves that this aspect of the legislation was never about the money. It's about union busting. Plain and simple. And these coordinates attacks by GOP legislatures and governors around the country all at the same time is no coincidence.

2. The Senate Democrats are crying foul and contending that this maneuver was against the rules. I can't say one way or the other. All I can say is that it does seem questionable since if this was all that it took the GOP senators and Gov. Walker could have done it a long time ago and not taken the huge PR hit that they have over the last few weeks.

All you Reagan Democrats out there working a 9 to 5 ..… especially those of you in unions are witnessing just how much you are NOT really part of the club.

OAW
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 08:30 PM
 


WI Republicans : 1
WI Democrats : - eleventy billion

Suffice to say: the Democrats heed to STFU about crying foul.
Their actions (fleeing WI) are as undemocratic of an act as it gets.

-t
( Last edited by turtle777; Mar 9, 2011 at 09:16 PM. )
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 09:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post


WI Republicans : 1
WI Democrats : - eleventy billion

Suffice to say: the Democrats heed to STFU about crying foul.
There action (fleeing WI) are as undemocratic of an act as it gets.


As if this measure is the only matter on the WI docket that half the representation can abandon ship. I think they've made their allegiances clear and it has zero to do with "working people" or "workers' rights" as most of the good folks in WI (for now) aren't union workers. I wonder how long this can go on before the remainder of their electorate feels disenfranchised by the unequal-rights agenda the Dems feel is the only worthy cause in office. Kind of illustrates the type of croneyism that got them in this mess to begin with.

This is only "union-busting" if one admits that the Union/government croneyism has been "WI-busting", otherwise it's just more hollow rhetoric.
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Mar 9, 2011, 09:21 PM
 
20 of the biggest lies that Walker is trying to buffalo the ignorant with:

20 of the Biggest Lies Told by Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker | Tea Party and the Right | AlterNet
     
OAW
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Mar 9, 2011, 09:21 PM
 
I would encourage everyone to view the video of the conference committee where the GOP senators held a vote over the strenuous objections of the Dem Assemblyman who said that 1) he hadn't had an opportunity to review the modified legislation, and 2) it was a clear violation of the open meetings law that requires 24 hours notice for such meetings to even take place.

It was a shady move to say the least. If this was all it would take it would have been done long ago And again. There's no way to get around it now. All that talking the GOP did about how the collective bargaining issue was a budget issue is now undeniably proven to be utter and complete BS. The public was solidly against this but they served their corporate masters and rammed it through anyway with a maneuver that will undoubtedly result in a (successful?) legal challenge.

OAW
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 09:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I would encourage everyone to view the video of the conference committee where the GOP senators held a vote over the strenuous objections of the Dem Assemblyman who said that 1) he hadn't had an opportunity to review the modified legislation, and 2) it was a clear violation of the open meetings law that requires 24 hours notice for such meetings to even take place.

It was a shady move to say the least.
Oh don't be such a baby.

Walker has nothing on the Washington Democrats. They were repeatedly ramming through legislation with more than 2,000 pages, w/o giving any time to read and process, let alone post it to solicit public opinion.

Again, you are complaining about things that Obama has been doing the last two years in a much bigger way.

-t
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 10:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Oh don't be such a baby.

Walker has nothing on the Washington Democrats. They were repeatedly ramming through legislation with more than 2,000 pages, w/o giving any time to read and process, let alone post it to solicit public opinion.

Again, you are complaining about things that Obama has been doing the last two years in a much bigger way.

-t
Democrat or Republican, they both do it.
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 10:03 PM
 
What you mean like healthcare reform that was debated for over a year?

I'll just note that you or no one else is disputing the facts that I'm outlining about what the GOP senators in WI just pulled. You're just cheering because you think you are on the winning side. And that's cool. I understand. You see it's one thing when you are convinced that such measures only affect "those people". When you buy into the belief that you are on the same team as those who orchestrate such things. And it's quite another when you eventually find that your are also in their crosshairs.

OAW
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 10:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
What you mean like healthcare reform that was debated for over a year?
NOT the actual *bill*.

It was put together by the Democrats, w/o any involvement by the Republicans.
Most in congress had to vote on something they never read, let alone understood. That's why you got so much crap in there (like the 1099 requirement etc...)

-t
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 10:36 PM
 
Wisconsin democratic state senators issuing their response to it being passed tonight from their hideout in IL. That sentence says everything you need to know.

****ing Priceless.

cause we're not quite "the fuzz"
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 10:39 PM
 
Then again, the thought has occurred to me that the GOP senators know that this probably won't stand up in court and it's all just a ruse to lure the Dem senators back into the state so they can vote on the original bill.

OAW
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 11:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I've never understood this "radical Muslims = a threat to me and my way of life" nonsense.
That's right, and I'm not sure you ever will.

See, there's a whole bunch of people who'd really like to blow themselves up in the US to take out bunches of us. Or maybe they'll set off a nuke or let go with some nerve gas.

If it was some RANDOM bunch of folks we probably couldn't sit down and worry about it, but since it's this one group of people (Islamists) who believe that jihad is OK, we can and probably should work to constrain their activities, and if they don't get the message, to constrain their lives.

How do they impact my life? Right now, gas is $4 per gallon and we have community organizer in the White House. They've already changed my way of life, Sparky.

Anything else you'd like to know?
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Mar 9, 2011, 11:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
1. The fact that this passed in a non-financial bill proves that this aspect of the legislation was never about the money.
No, the fact that it passed in a nonfinancial bill proves that passing financial bills in WI requires a quorum. By law.

Doh!
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Mar 9, 2011, 11:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
That's right, and I'm not sure you ever will.

See, there's a whole bunch of people who'd really like to blow themselves up in the US to take out bunches of us. Or maybe they'll set off a nuke or let go with some nerve gas.

If it was some RANDOM bunch of folks we probably couldn't sit down and worry about it, but since it's this one group of people (Islamists) who believe that jihad is OK, we can and probably should work to constrain their activities, and if they don't get the message, to constrain their lives.

How do they impact my life? Right now, gas is $4 per gallon and we have community organizer in the White House. They've already changed my way of life, Sparky.

Anything else you'd like to know?

Yeah, I'd like to know whether you feel that statements about how radical Islam is changing your way of life is a little dramatic and hyperbolic? Maybe you didn't mean it to be, and maybe this is a little knee jerky on my part, but when I hear this sentiment it usually seems to be in the context of radical Islam posing some sort of grave and urgent threat to our democracy and whole empire.
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 11:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
See, there's a whole bunch of people who'd really like to blow themselves up in the US to take out bunches of us.
That's the problem right there; you're so irrationally paranoid, you'll believe anything spoon fed to by your handlers. There isn't a whole bunch of people; there are, in the percentage of the Muslim population, an extremely small number who would like to blow you up. The problem with them doing that of course is that most of them are in the Middle East, and they're too busy fighting each other. I promise you that you're going to die of any of a multitude of other causes than terrorism. I know you won't believe me, because facts matter little to paranoid people, who are easy to hook with emotionalist and sensationalistic rhetoric that's blasted at them so often they come to accept it as fact, but it really isn't true. Thirty times as many Americans die every year due to medical mistakes as were killed on 9/11, about six times as many die every year due to automobile accidents, hundreds of thousands die every year due to cancer, just to give you an example of what's really killing large numbers of Americans annually, yet the gullible are afraid of Mohammed hiding under their bed, just waiting for the opportunity to take off your insignificant little head. Those numbers, BTW, are facts you can verify (and take to the bank), yet you'll continue to rail against someone else just because your handlers tell you to. It requires logic and thinking to put things in perspective, and it's quite obvious to me that there are a whole lot of people who are painfully short in those departments.


How do they impact my life? Right now, gas is $4 per gallon and we have community organizer in the White House. They've already changed my way of life, Sparky.
Gas is heading towards $4/gallon because of any of a number of other reasons, but you obviously need to believe in your delusions. Facts have very little importance in your life.

Anything else you'd like to know?
I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I would like to know how sad it must be to live so afraid of something that will never happen to you. I'm curious; do you ever leave your house, or is it wrapped in a bubble?
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 01:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
That's the problem right there; you're so irrationally paranoid, you'll believe anything spoon fed to by your handlers. There isn't a whole bunch of people; there are, in the percentage of the Muslim population, an extremely small number who would like to blow you up. The problem with them doing that of course is that most of them are in the Middle East, and they're too busy fighting each other. I promise you that you're going to die of any of a multitude of other causes than terrorism. I know you won't believe me, because facts matter little to paranoid people, who are easy to hook with emotionalist and sensationalistic rhetoric that's blasted at them so often they come to accept it as fact, but it really isn't true. Thirty times as many Americans die every year due to medical mistakes as were killed on 9/11, about six times as many die every year due to automobile accidents, hundreds of thousands die every year due to cancer, just to give you an example of what's really killing large numbers of Americans annually, yet the gullible are afraid of Mohammed hiding under their bed, just waiting for the opportunity to take off your insignificant little head. Those numbers, BTW, are facts you can verify (and take to the bank), yet you'll continue to rail against someone else just because your handlers tell you to. It requires logic and thinking to put things in perspective, and it's quite obvious to me that there are a whole lot of people who are painfully short in those departments.




Gas is heading towards $4/gallon because of any of a number of other reasons, but you obviously need to believe in your delusions. Facts have very little importance in your life.



I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I would like to know how sad it must be to live so afraid of something that will never happen to you. I'm curious; do you ever leave your house, or is it wrapped in a bubble?
If we get a collection going, would you be up for flying to Egypt, standing on a corner in Tahrir Square and reading from the bible?

You know, since you aren't paranoid or anything.

cause we're not quite "the fuzz"
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 03:48 AM
 
The fear and paranoia is palpable from the right in this forum.
Deny it, blame the Dems or the teachers and pull your brain into the shell.
Freaking amazing.
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 06:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
What you mean like healthcare reform that was debated for over a year?
I"m pretty sure that stripping public workers of collective bargaining rights was debated and negotiated for some time.

If the Democrats wanted to be part of the process, they could have not left town. The reason why it was done the way it was done was because of the childish temper tantrum the Democrats were having because they weren't going to have enough votes to get their way, not because they were trying to do something they hadn't already made clear they were going to do.
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 06:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Lint Police View Post
If we get a collection going, would you be up for flying to Egypt, standing on a corner in Tahrir Square and reading from the bible?

You know, since you aren't paranoid or anything.
Typical answer from you; short, irrational, and totally missing the point. You need to get your sound bytes from somewhere beside the six o'clock news.
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 07:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I would encourage everyone to view the video of the conference committee where the GOP senators held a vote over the strenuous objections of the Dem Assemblyman who said that 1) he hadn't had an opportunity to review the modified legislation, and 2) it was a clear violation of the open meetings law that requires 24 hours notice for such meetings to even take place.

It was a shady move to say the least. If this was all it would take it would have been done long ago And again. There's no way to get around it now. All that talking the GOP did about how the collective bargaining issue was a budget issue is now undeniably proven to be utter and complete BS. The public was solidly against this but they served their corporate masters and rammed it through anyway with a maneuver that will undoubtedly result in a (successful?) legal challenge.

OAW
WI Open Meetings Law - Section 19.84, item 3: Public notice of every meeting of a governmental body shall be given at least 24 hours prior to the commencement of such meeting unless for good cause such notice is impossible or impractical, in which case shorter notice may be given, but in no case may the notice be provided less than 2 hours in advance of the meeting.

There is a way around every obstructive measure the Party of "no" perpetrates by hiding out in Illinois kidnapped by the Union lobby having abandoned their electorate weeks ago. I would say the inability to actually have a hearing of anything other than the slobbering-angry union mobs in the State House makes a hearing impractical in the least. Desperate times and all that. This is what happens when your representatives hold the line on their positions. Hey, at least they didn't close the doors on one Democrat and promise his district a few billion in kickbacks.

Besides, I don't know what the Union goons are all up in arms over. I mean you've gotta pass the bill to know what's in it right? Riiiiiiggggghhhht.
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Mar 10, 2011, 07:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
I"m pretty sure that stripping public workers of collective bargaining rights was debated and negotiated for some time.
Yeah... like the entire Walker campaign duration in which unions passed out fliers indicating this was exactly what Walker would do.

If the Democrats wanted to be part of the process, they could have not left town. The reason why it was done the way it was done was because of the childish temper tantrum the Democrats were having because they weren't going to have enough votes to get their way, not because they were trying to do something they hadn't already made clear they were going to do.
ebuddy
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 12:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
WI Open Meetings Law - Section 19.84, item 3: Public notice of every meeting of a governmental body shall be given at least 24 hours prior to the commencement of such meeting unless for good cause such notice is impossible or impractical, in which case shorter notice may be given, but in no case may the notice be provided less than 2 hours in advance of the meeting.

There is a way around every obstructive measure the Party of "no" perpetrates by hiding out in Illinois kidnapped by the Union lobby having abandoned their electorate weeks ago. I would say the inability to actually have a hearing of anything other than the slobbering-angry union mobs in the State House makes a hearing impractical in the least.
It appears you are missing the point my friend. The Open Meetings Law applies to ALL government meetings ... not just SENATE sessions. The complaint that was registered quite vociferously and completely ignored ... purportedly in violation of the law ... was that the CONFERENCE COMMITTEE between the GOP SENATORS and the State ASSEMBLY REPS did not have the 24 hour notice. The point being ... the Dem Senators that left the state were NOT required for that meeting. But the State Assembly Reps were since it is a conference committee between members of both chambers. There were Dem Assembly Reps available because none of them have left the state. It didn't even appear that a 2 hour notice was given. Perhaps they did .... but there was no reason to NOT give 24 hour notice since the presence of the missing Dem Senators wasn't necessary by law for a conference committee ....

Other than to pull a fast one at the same time you were actively negotiating a compromise with the Dem Senators ... releasing emails to the press showing how you were actually trying to reach a deal and not being an unreasonable hard ass because your poll numbers were taking a serious hit. Come now my friend ... surely you can acknowledge that the GOP Senators and Gov. Walker were not negotiating in GOOD FAITH if at the exact same time they were putting this maneuver in motion. Even if you agree with the outcome ... which is your prerogative ... you have to admit that this was underhanded. And even if you refuse to acknowledge that, one thing is most definitely clear ....

The attack on collective bargaining rights had nothing to do with the budget. Despite the REPEATED DENIALS of Gov. Walker and his GOP cohorts. Otherwise, they wouldn't have been able to utilize this maneuver. And that my friend is a FACT that needs no corroboration. To deny it is like disputing the fact that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

OAW
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 12:32 PM
 
Well I'm glad to see no one here thinks two wrongs make a right. Oh wait
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 12:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
I"m pretty sure that stripping public workers of collective bargaining rights was debated and negotiated for some time.

If the Democrats wanted to be part of the process, they could have not left town. The reason why it was done the way it was done was because of the childish temper tantrum the Democrats were having because they weren't going to have enough votes to get their way, not because they were trying to do something they hadn't already made clear they were going to do.
Yet, for some reason this standard wasn't good enough for the GOP during Obama's health care reform process.

"One ticket to Washington, please. I have a date with destiny."
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 12:42 PM
 
So Obama and his radical buddies just can't keep from tampering in WI state politics.

Wisconsin Republicans Claim Obama Advisers Behind Recall Campaign - FoxNews.com
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 05:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
Yet, for some reason this standard wasn't good enough for the GOP during Obama's health care reform process.
I don't remember the GOP not wanting to be a part of the debate, or refusing to vote. I don't remember them leaving the country to avoid having to allow the bills to pass. I remember them very actively debating and very actively insisting that everything be put to a vote.

In fact, it was the Democrats who wanted no part of signing their name to the legislation, having to be bribed and going so far as trying to pull a fast one by passing another bill which essentially stated that they'd already voted the bill in so they didn't have to admit that they voted for it.

So...no, the same standards weren't in place for the GOP.
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 05:24 PM
 
As this point it's pretty much all over except for the screaming and the shouting. Even if the Dems challenge this in court successfully over the Open Meetings Law violation and it's tossed out ... the GOP can simply do the same maneuver again after giving proper notice. They have the votes. It's as simple as that. But as I've said before, by resorting to such tactics they've undeniably demonstrated that their insistence that stripping public workers of their collective bargaining rights was a budget issue was a lie. There's no way to spin it otherwise. So they've won this battle .... but we'll see who wins the war. I suspect this will be settled one way or the other politically at the ballot box. Be it in a recall election or the next general election. The polling data proves what I said from the beginning. Gov. Walker and his GOP allies seriously overreached on this one. Mark my word ... this will come back to haunt them.

OAW
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 05:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
I don't remember the GOP not wanting to be a part of the debate, or refusing to vote. I don't remember them leaving the country to avoid having to allow the bills to pass. I remember them very actively debating and very actively insisting that everything be put to a vote.
Wow, not was I was talking about at all. Nice spin, though. I'm not comparing the opposition parties' reactions, I'm comparing their dispute of the governing party's assertion of a mandate. The Obama administration went full bore on economic stimulus on health reform, claiming essentially that was what the American people had elected them to do (or as Obama famously -- infamously, according to Republicans -- stated in that closed-door meeting with GOP Congressional leaders, "I won"). This translated into the GOP complaining that the process wasn't bipartisan enough, even though, as you say, they were "very actively debating." Somehow when a Republican governor makes a similar claim in order to enact a sweeping change (elimination of collective bargaining rights), lack of bipartisanship isn't a problem, and these annoying Democratic legislators need to just get on board the train!

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Mar 10, 2011, 06:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
As this point it's pretty much all over except for the screaming and the shouting. Even if the Dems challenge this in court successfully over the Open Meetings Law violation and it's tossed out ... the GOP can simply do the same maneuver again after giving proper notice. They have the votes. It's as simple as that. But as I've said before, by resorting to such tactics they've undeniably demonstrated that their insistence that stripping public workers of their collective bargaining rights was a budget issue was a lie. There's no way to spin it otherwise. So they've won this battle .... but we'll see who wins the war. I suspect this will be settled one way or the other politically at the ballot box. Be it in a recall election or the next general election. The polling data proves what I said from the beginning. Gov. Walker and his GOP allies seriously overreached on this one. Mark my word ... this will come back to haunt them.

OAW
Oh stop the whining. Walker got elected to do this, during the campaign he said explicitly what he was intending to do.

The poeple in WI are much smarter than you give them credit for.

-t
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 06:16 PM
 
G-d bless Governor Scott Walker and the Wisconsin Republican legislators.

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Mar 10, 2011, 06:41 PM
 
He blessed WI with Walker

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Mar 10, 2011, 08:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
Wow, not was I was talking about at all. Nice spin, though. I'm not comparing the opposition parties' reactions, I'm comparing their dispute of the governing party's assertion of a mandate. The Obama administration went full bore on economic stimulus on health reform, claiming essentially that was what the American people had elected them to do (or as Obama famously -- infamously, according to Republicans -- stated in that closed-door meeting with GOP Congressional leaders, "I won").
The problem was that there was no mandate for socialized healthcare. The evidence? Even the Democrats didn't want to vote for it knowing it was a dog.

In both cases, it's the Democrats who wanted the unpopular action, but didn't want to have to vote for it.
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 09:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
It appears you are missing the point my friend. The Open Meetings Law applies to ALL government meetings ... not just SENATE sessions. The complaint that was registered quite vociferously and completely ignored ... purportedly in violation of the law ... was that the CONFERENCE COMMITTEE between the GOP SENATORS and the State ASSEMBLY REPS did not have the 24 hour notice.
Show me where it is absolutely necessary they have 24 HOUR NOTICE. Otherwise, I've already given you the only out the Republicans needed to have done what they did.

The point being ... the Dem Senators that left the state were NOT required for that meeting. But the State Assembly Reps were since it is a conference committee between members of both chambers. There were Dem Assembly Reps available because none of them have left the state. It didn't even appear that a 2 hour notice was given. Perhaps they did .... but there was no reason to NOT give 24 hour notice since the presence of the missing Dem Senators wasn't necessary by law for a conference committee ....
Show me where a 2-hour notice had not been given. They opened @ 4pm and closed the vote shortly after 6pm as far as I know.

Other than to pull a fast one at the same time you were actively negotiating a compromise with the Dem Senators ... releasing emails to the press showing how you were actually trying to reach a deal and not being an unreasonable hard ass because your poll numbers were taking a serious hit. Come now my friend ... surely you can acknowledge that the GOP Senators and Gov. Walker were not negotiating in GOOD FAITH if at the exact same time they were putting this maneuver in motion. Even if you agree with the outcome ... which is your prerogative ... you have to admit that this was underhanded. And even if you refuse to acknowledge that, one thing is most definitely clear ....
Desperate times. When the other elected party representatives abandon their posts during the legislative process, it is going to have an adverse impact on the legislative process. The legislative process and the subsequent budget bill will not look the same when the other party decides to hide out in the state you're trying to lure businesses from. What would you have done had you been a Republican in this scenario who held strong to his position? You might try jacking with their parking spaces, you may try to appeal to their better senses on TV and elsewhere, you may try to reach out to a few you believe you can pick off; all tried and failed. The Dems were insisting they'd return the following day and it is now what... three weeks later? Like I said, the only apparent thing here is their allegiance to the Union lobby.

The attack on collective bargaining rights had nothing to do with the budget. Despite the REPEATED DENIALS of Gov. Walker and his GOP cohorts. Otherwise, they wouldn't have been able to utilize this maneuver. And that my friend is a FACT that needs no corroboration. To deny it is like disputing the fact that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
Then why was it part of a budget bill until yesterday? Are you saying that collective bargaining has no impact on the budget? Where does the money come from, union dues? Nope. Are you denying this move had anything to do with the fact that the other party was not present during the legislative process? While I'm sure you wouldn't have appreciated that outcome either, the fact of the matter is that had even one Democrat been present during the process, none of this would have occurred.

What is beyond dispute IMO is that WI Dems have chosen their allegiance to the Unions in spite of the fact that most workers in WI are non-union tax payers. This is not the only issue on the WI docket.
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Mar 10, 2011, 09:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Well I'm glad to see no one here thinks two wrongs make a right. Oh wait
I'll bite... what two "wrongs" are being compared in your complaint?
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Mar 10, 2011, 09:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
The problem was that there was no mandate for socialized healthcare. The evidence? Even the Democrats didn't want to vote for it knowing it was a dog.

In both cases, it's the Democrats who wanted the unpopular action, but didn't want to have to vote for it.
So you accept the premise that electoral victory minimizes the need to work across party lines, especially if the issue in question was an explicit topic in the election? That's all I was pointing out. I bring it up because I remember you cheerleading the refrain about Obama and the Democrats' failing to include the Republicans, but here you deny the reverse. Your hypocrisy is showing.

Personally I think if you are on the wrong side of the legislative voting math you don't deserve to whine about it regardless of what party you belong to, but I'm never disappointed by your shameless partisan boosterism.

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Mar 10, 2011, 10:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
So you accept the premise that electoral victory minimizes the need to work across party lines, especially if the issue in question was an explicit topic in the election?
If the issue was explicit, it would depend on a couple of things.

A. Was the solution also explicit.
B. If not, is the proposed solution supported by the majority of the voters.

In other words, you can't claim a mandate for an unpopular solution you didn't essentially spell out at the time of your election and expect that to be "cover" for not engaging in some bi-partisan give and take. If it's pretty clear what your solution is and you get into office, then the other side really can't cry foul when the plan is implemented.

That's all I was pointing out. I bring it up because I remember you cheerleading the refrain about Obama and the Democrats' failing to include the Republicans, but here you deny the reverse. Your hypocrisy is showing.
The problem with your claim is that not only did Obama fail to include Republicans, but he initially failed to include enough of the mainstream of his party to get the votes to pass it. He had to end up bribing several members, and then they even tried to legislatively try to pretend that it was already passed so that members of his own party might not be punished by their electorate for voting for such a crummy deal.

You are dealing with apples and oranges here.
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 10:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
If the issue was explicit, it would depend on a couple of things.

A. Was the solution also explicit.
B. If not, is the proposed solution supported by the majority of the voters.

In other words, you can't claim a mandate for an unpopular solution you didn't essentially spell out at the time of your election and expect that to be "cover" for not engaging in some bi-partisan give and take. If it's pretty clear what your solution is and you get into office, then the other side really can't cry foul when the plan is implemented.



The problem with your claim is that not only did Obama fail to include Republicans, but he initially failed to include enough of the mainstream of his party to get the votes to pass it. He had to end up bribing several members, and then they even tried to legislatively try to pretend that it was already passed so that members of his own party might not be punished by their electorate for voting for such a crummy deal.

You are dealing with apples and oranges here.
The argument was about process, not substance. I am really not dealing with apples and oranges here. Squabbles within the Democratic party are immaterial. The purported unpopularity of the measure in question is irrelevant. Once the election is over, the party who is not governing does not get to cry foul about not being treated like the governing party, regardless of whether they are Ds or Rs. Wisconsin Democrats should get back to work, and Republicans in Congress should not have pretended (on national TV, no less) that there was never a fair opportunity for their views to be included.

You, however, have a different standard depending on the letter.
( Last edited by SpaceMonkey; Mar 10, 2011 at 11:09 PM. )

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Mar 11, 2011, 02:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
Facts have very little importance in your life.
Does the implication that I have or need "handlers" constitute a personal attack? How lovely.

I understand that I'm pissing in the wind here, but the Left's talking points shift to portray those of us who take the threat of Muslim terrorism seriously as kooks doesn't seem to be working except with the very weak minded. There are Muslim terrorists trying to kill Americans, and getting caught here and now, and most folks have picked up on that and just dig in when confronted with the apologies.

And, I define "whole bunch" as "more than 3 or 4".
( Last edited by finboy; Mar 11, 2011 at 03:28 AM. Reason: It just isn't worth it.)
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Mar 11, 2011, 06:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
The argument was about process, not substance. I am really not dealing with apples and oranges here. Squabbles within the Democratic party are immaterial. The purported unpopularity of the measure in question is irrelevant. Once the election is over, the party who is not governing does not get to cry foul about not being treated like the governing party, regardless of whether they are Ds or Rs.
No one says that they have to. What is relevant, is that after the election is over, are our elected officials doing what it is that we sent them there to do? This isn't about the elected officials - it's about those who elected them. If they choose to do exactly what they said they would do prior to the election, then the party that isn't in power has no right to cry foul.

However, if they did not give specifics on what they were going to do, then the assumption should be that they would do things with input from the other side to craft a solution that both sides can agree on (or least get a decent size chunk of the other side on board), and that the majority of those who elected them would agree on as well. Of course, the party in power will always be able to manipulate the process in their favor somewhate, as that's one of the "spoils" of victory.

Winning does not give you carte blanche to do whatever you want regardless of the wishes of the people though. You tell them you are going to do exactly (A) though, and you get into office, you have a mandate to do (A) and the other side shouldn't obstruct. That's what's happening in Wisconsin. If you generally suggest that there needs to be a solution to a problem without giving a specific solution, then you have no mandate to put into place an essentially one sided solution that is not popular with the electorate. Of course, you CAN TRY, but then you end up with huge losses the next election like the Democrats saw.

Wisconsin Democrats should get back to work, and Republicans in Congress should not have pretended (on national TV, no less) that there was never a fair opportunity for their views to be included.

You, however, have a different standard depending on the letter.
Nope. I have a different standard based on the wishes of the electorate, and what was asked of them. It doesn't matter if it's a D or R in charge. It's the difference between saying:

A. I told the people I would do this, they elected me, I'm going to do this.

and.

B. I told the people there was a problem, they elected me and I'm going to force my unpopular solution that benefits me and my party and not find any real bipartisan support, because I won.

BIG difference. There's not many better examples of "apples and oranges."
( Last edited by stupendousman; Mar 11, 2011 at 06:46 AM. )
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 08:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
Does the implication that I have or need "handlers" constitute a personal attack? How lovely.

I understand that I'm pissing in the wind here, but the Left's talking points shift to portray those of us who take the threat of Muslim terrorism seriously as kooks doesn't seem to be working except with the very weak minded. There are Muslim terrorists trying to kill Americans, and getting caught here and now, and most folks have picked up on that and just dig in when confronted with the apologies.

And, I define "whole bunch" as "more than 3 or 4".
As usual, you ignored the facts I pointed out about your chances of being killed by a terrorist. Denial is a powerful motivator, resulting in paranoia. History is replete with the damage caused by people who are afraid of those who are different than them, a lot of it unnecessary. When I was a young child, it was the Communists who were coming to get us. We had air raid drills, and I thought, even then, how foolish some grown ups were.

While this country crumbles from within, due to our own ignorance and outright stupidity, we manufacture fear of others, probably to divert our attention from solving our own internal problems.

It must be sad to live in such irrational fear.
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 08:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
How do they impact my life? Right now, gas is $4 per gallon and we have community organizer in the White House. They've already changed my way of life, Sparky.
Gas isn't at $4/gallon because of terrorism. There hasn't been a significant act of terror since 2001. Gas is at $4/gallon because people in the Middle East are fighting for democracy and because people who buy and sell oil in the stock market are scared that might affect oil supplies.
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 11:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Oh stop the whining. Walker got elected to do this, during the campaign he said explicitly what he was intending to do.
-t
Oh stop the lying. Gov. Walker did NOT campaign on eliminating collective bargaining for public worker unions. Just look at poll numbers dude. He wouldn't have been elected had he come out and said that.

Now, we thought we were following the campaign pretty closely.

It seemed to us like the first public hint Walker gave that he was considering eliminating many union bargaining rights was at a Dec. 7, 2010 Milwaukee Press Club forum, some four weeks after the election.

So Walker’s claim he campaigned on all of this caught our attention -- and that of many readers, who have been e-mailing us asking us to check it out.

There is no dispute that Walker campaigned on getting concessions on health and pension benefits from state employees. And, to be sure, that is an important part of the measure.

But for Walker to be right, he has to be correct on the entirety of the plan. So we’ll look more deeply at the collective bargaining side of the equation, which has caused the ongoing firestorm in Madison.

Here is a summary of the changes:

For public employee unions except those covering public safety workers, the measure would narrow collective bargaining to wage issues, and only then within specific limits. It would end bargaining on such things as health care costs, pensions and working conditions -- rights granted to the public unions more than 50 years ago.

Additionally: Wage increases would be limited to inflation or less. Employees would be able to opt out of paying union dues. An annual certification vote on the existence of each union would be required. And public employers would be barred from withholding union dues from worker’s paychecks.

Walker’s proposal also repeals all rights to collective bargaining for more than 30,000 University of Wisconsin employees, something granted in 2009.

For this item, we reviewed dozens of news accounts and various proposals on Walker’s campaign website to determine what he said about collective bargaining during the campaign. We talked to both campaigns in the governor’s race, and union officials.

During the campaign, Walker prided himself on presenting many specific proposals to voters. Our Walk-O-Meter includes 60-plus specific promises. Indeed, his plans for the state Department of Natural Resources include at least seven specific elements, including appointment of a "whitetail deer trustee" to review deer counts.

But nowhere in our search did we find any such detailed discussion of collective bargaining changes as sweeping as Walker proposed.

......

Let’s sum up our research.

Walker contends he clearly "campaigned on" his union bargaining plan.

But Walker, who offered many specific proposals during the campaign, did not go public with even the bare-bones of his multi-faceted plans to sharply curb collective bargaining rights. He could not point to any statements where he did. We could find none either.

While Walker often talked about employees paying more for pensions and health care, in his budget-repair bill he connected it to collective bargaining changes that were far different from his campaign rhetoric in terms of how far his plan goes and the way it would be accomplished.

We rate his statement False.
PolitiFact Wisconsin | Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker says he campaigned on his budget repair plan, including curtailing collective bargaining

OAW
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 12:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Show me where it is absolutely necessary they have 24 HOUR NOTICE.
You already know the answer to that. After all it was YOU who posted the following:

WI Open Meetings Law - Section 19.84, item 3: Public notice of every meeting of a governmental body shall be given at least 24 hours prior to the commencement of such meeting unless for good cause such notice is impossible or impractical, in which case shorter notice may be given, but in no case may the notice be provided less than 2 hours in advance of the meeting.
That part in blue is pretty explicit n'est-ce pas?

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Otherwise, I've already given you the only out the Republicans needed to have done what they did.
Well let's examine your argument in this regard shall we?

Originally Posted by ebuddy
There is a way around every obstructive measure the Party of "no" perpetrates by hiding out in Illinois kidnapped by the Union lobby having abandoned their electorate weeks ago. I would say the inability to actually have a hearing of anything other than the slobbering-angry union mobs in the State House makes a hearing impractical in the least.
Now when you examine the part of your statement that is in blue ... it's clear that the crux of your argument is centered around the supposed inability or impracticality of actually HAVING the hearing. But when you examine the actual text of the LAW that is in blue .... it's clear that the requirement actually says "unless for good cause such NOTICE is impossible or impractical". And again, there was nothing stopping the GOP Senators from providing 24 hours of public notice.

Originally Posted by ebuddy
Show me where a 2-hour notice had not been given. They opened @ 4pm and closed the vote shortly after 6pm as far as I know.
I can't. As I said earlier I don't know if they did or didn't give 2 hour notice. The real question is what was the "good cause" that 24 hour notice wasn't given? Was there something stopping them from posting a notice of the scheduled meeting on the Wisconsin state government website at a minimum?

Then why was it part of a budget bill until yesterday? Are you saying that collective bargaining has no impact on the budget? Where does the money come from, union dues? Nope. Are you denying this move had anything to do with the fact that the other party was not present during the legislative process? While I'm sure you wouldn't have appreciated that outcome either, the fact of the matter is that had even one Democrat been present during the process, none of this would have occurred.
You're missing the point again my friend. The only way GOP Senators could utilize this maneuver and LEGALLY hold a vote without a quorum of 20 was to strip all the budget or fiscally related language out of the bill. You know ... like the language requiring the public workers to kick in more out of their paycheck for their healthcare and pension plans. Everything! If anything financial was left in the bill then BY LAW the quorum of 20 would have been necessary. The fact that they could even do it like this proves that collective bargaining rights for public workers does not in and of itself impact the budget. Therefore ... Gov. Walker's insistence that this was a budget issue is patently false. What does requiring union members to re-certify the union every year have to do with the state budget? Nothing! What does eliminating the convenience of union members paying their union dues directly out of their own paychecks have to do with the state budget? Nothing! It's their money!! Please ... explain to me how that is any different than an employer automatically making contributions to the United Way for an employee out of their own paycheck? This was all about busting the union my friend. Come on now ... I can understand if in your view the union should be busted. That's fine ... we can agree to disagree on that point. But you generally aren't one of our resident conservatives who refuses to acknowledge the obvious.

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Mar 11, 2011, 12:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
He blessed WI with Walker
Apparently he blessed Japan with an 8.9 earthquake. What a pal!
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