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Obama and the Israeli borders (Page 2)
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OAW
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May 20, 2011, 08:37 PM
 
IIRC it was divvied up that way based more upon population centers than geographic continuity. Additionally the Zionists ensured that they got the lions share if the most fertile land.

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May 20, 2011, 09:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
IIRC it was divvied up that way based more upon population centers than geographic continuity. Additionally the Zionists ensured that they got the lions share if the most fertile land.

OAW
Oh of course and now Israel wants breathing room with large buffers.
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May 21, 2011, 09:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
I think you're forgetting that Israel was created specifically as a Jewish state. Only 10 years before 1948, just 3% of Palestine (now Israel's) population was actually Jewish.
I'm certain you're forgetting that 0% were of this self-identified Palestinian people until approximately 1967; almost 20 years after 1948. There was little of any interest in this region described by Samuel Clemens as a "silent mournful expanse, desolate, weed-infested, human-less, and with hardly a tree or shrub anywhere." The region was developed under Jewish stewardship and the product of this labor shared with Arab immigrants who only then realized its potential and explosive population growth. In fact, there was zero Arab interest in what had been the Jewish capital for over 3300 years, particularly when occupied by Jordanians from 1948-67. The ancestors of today's Palestinian "refugees" were comprised of those who left for the promise of the spoils of war upon their return, many to clear the way for Arab armies, and your standard fleeing from war. They lost the bet.

What you and my friend OAW fail to acknowledge is that the conflict stems from adherence to a religion and/or philosophy that has made life throughout most of the Middle East, at best, a dicey affair for the Jew. What would you have them do? (I know how some would answer, but I'm assuming a degree of reason here) It is patently logical to me that a people wishing to worship as they please in the Middle East would have to establish a place where they could do so. If size doesn't matter, why is 8,000 sq miles so much to ask? For those that claim a wedge driven through the middle of Israel does not make them any less safe than they are presently, there will be no nuke deployed within Israel proper and the term "divide and conquer" exists for a reason.

The fact of the matter is that borders exist to segregate people based on legislative principles. There is no unique legislative principle by which a Palestinian should require a greater portion of Jewish freedoms. The Palestinian people have been made pawns by a surrounding religious hostility that would not allow their own brethren amongst them to perpetuate a "refugee" problem. So you can go back 50 years or 3000 years, the only reason this ugliness has gone on so long is because Israel is too concerned of its image abroad to simply have a nation-state not unlike any other friggin' nation-state on the globe. Otherwise a hell-bent, mighty force as Israel is claimed to be would simply vanquish its hostile elements. Good intentions gone awry and the political wrangling of a hopeless "diplomacy" that eventually brings out the worst in everyone, Israeli and Palestinian alike.

There can be no agreement in the region. They are at deeply-seeded odds and a Muslim purveyor of territory has proven incapable of allowing for Jewish freedoms. One in this case will simply have to relent to the other or there will never be peace in Israel. Like lions fighting over the gazelle-laden plains, it is the way of things. One wins, one loses and relents. It is ugly, but it is the foundation of every nation-state known to mankind.
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May 21, 2011, 10:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Well the "reason" was because European Christians couldn't get it together and accept European Jews amongst them. And the Palestinians had Europe's "Jewish Problem" solved at their expense. So let's just be clear about that. Now having said that, the State of Israel is a fait d'accompli at this stage in the game. It's not going anywhere. So the Jewish homeland already exists. That's no longer the issue. The issue now is the Palestinian homeland. Whether one will exist or not. And the entity preventing that from happening right now is the State of Israel because it is not satisfied with the homeland that the UN granted to it in 1948. There are really only a few options here:

A. Israel expels all the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza and annexes the lands by force.

B. Israel formally annexes the West Bank and Gaza and creates an apartheid system where the Palestinians are legally second-class citizens ... thereby maintaining Israel's status as a "Jewish State" regardless of their numbers.

C. Israel annexes the West Bank and Gaza and creates a "one person/one vote" democracy for all the residents of the land historically known as Palestine. A "single state solution" that would eventually result in the country no longer having a Jewish majority.

D. Israel gives up the West Bank and Gaza as a starting point in order to have a "two state solution" thereby maintaining Israel as a "Jewish State". Land swaps may occur to accommodate large Israeli settlements in the West Bank that are geographically closer to the existing Israeli border.

E. Israel continues the occupation of the West Bank indefinitely. Continually expanding its settlement expansions until option B is the de facto reality. Sowing the seeds for continued militancy among the occupied Palestinian population.

Which one most accurately represents "compromise"?

OAW
Personally, I think the optimal solution would be a single state—with or without a Jewish majority—in which the rights of all people are respected equally. If everyone is protected, then, by definition, Jews are protected. This new state must continue to offer a homeland to any and all Jews who want or need it. This is roughly the situation that currently exists within the state of Israel right now expanded to include the whole of the land and the people who currently live there. Obviously this solution is not amenable to everyone, and has strong detractors on both sides (which is what would make it a compromise). The question is whether or not this would work in practice, and I'm not convinced that it would.

In a well designed democracy, minority groups should not have to fear the will of the majority. This requires strong constitutional limits and constraints on the government to prevent populist takeover and ensure the protection of all. This is one area where I feel that Israel's current government is definitely deficient, and should be remedied regardless.

Regardless of what approach is taken, a necessary precondition of any settlement must be official recognition of the State of Israel and of the right of the Jewish People to live there by the Palestinians (the specifics of what constitutes an official recognition would have to be negotiated). The problem is that right now the official position of the official and more or less democratically elected government of the Palestinian Territories is in contradiction to that. As long as this remains the case, I believe it is unworkable—and undesirable—to attempt to put the Palestinians on an equal footing.
     
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May 21, 2011, 11:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I'm certain you're forgetting that 0% were of this self-identified Palestinian people until approximately 1967; almost 20 years after 1948. There was little of any interest in this region described by Samuel Clemens as a "silent mournful expanse, desolate, weed-infested, human-less, and with hardly a tree or shrub anywhere." The region was developed under Jewish stewardship and the product of this labor shared with Arab immigrants who only then realized its potential and explosive population growth. In fact, there was zero Arab interest in what had been the Jewish capital for over 3300 years, particularly when occupied by Jordanians from 1948-67. The ancestors of today's Palestinian "refugees" were comprised of those who left for the promise of the spoils of war upon their return, many to clear the way for Arab armies, and your standard fleeing from war. They lost the bet.

What you and my friend OAW fail to acknowledge is that the conflict stems from adherence to a religion and/or philosophy that has made life throughout most of the Middle East, at best, a dicey affair for the Jew. What would you have them do? (I know how some would answer, but I'm assuming a degree of reason here) It is patently logical to me that a people wishing to worship as they please in the Middle East would have to establish a place where they could do so. If size doesn't matter, why is 8,000 sq miles so much to ask? For those that claim a wedge driven through the middle of Israel does not make them any less safe than they are presently, there will be no nuke deployed within Israel proper and the term "divide and conquer" exists for a reason.

The fact of the matter is that borders exist to segregate people based on legislative principles. There is no unique legislative principle by which a Palestinian should require a greater portion of Jewish freedoms. The Palestinian people have been made pawns by a surrounding religious hostility that would not allow their own brethren amongst them to perpetuate a "refugee" problem. So you can go back 50 years or 3000 years, the only reason this ugliness has gone on so long is because Israel is too concerned of its image abroad to simply have a nation-state not unlike any other friggin' nation-state on the globe. Otherwise a hell-bent, mighty force as Israel is claimed to be would simply vanquish its hostile elements. Good intentions gone awry and the political wrangling of a hopeless "diplomacy" that eventually brings out the worst in everyone, Israeli and Palestinian alike.

There can be no agreement in the region. They are at deeply-seeded odds and a Muslim purveyor of territory has proven incapable of allowing for Jewish freedoms. One in this case will simply have to relent to the other or there will never be peace in Israel. Like lions fighting over the gazelle-laden plains, it is the way of things. One wins, one loses and relents. It is ugly, but it is the foundation of every nation-state known to mankind.
Then Israel should annihilate the Palestinians or the Arabs should annihilate Israel. Perhaps the Mighty USofA can give a portion of Florida to be the new Jewish State and they can all migrate there.
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May 21, 2011, 12:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I'm certain you're forgetting that 0% were of this self-identified Palestinian people until approximately 1967; almost 20 years after 1948. There was little of any interest in this region described by Samuel Clemens as a "silent mournful expanse, desolate, weed-infested, human-less, and with hardly a tree or shrub anywhere." The region was developed under Jewish stewardship and the product of this labor shared with Arab immigrants who only then realized its potential and explosive population growth. In fact, there was zero Arab interest in what had been the Jewish capital for over 3300 years, particularly when occupied by Jordanians from 1948-67. The ancestors of today's Palestinian "refugees" were comprised of those who left for the promise of the spoils of war upon their return, many to clear the way for Arab armies, and your standard fleeing from war. They lost the bet.

What you and my friend OAW fail to acknowledge is that the conflict stems from adherence to a religion and/or philosophy that has made life throughout most of the Middle East, at best, a dicey affair for the Jew. What would you have them do? (I know how some would answer, but I'm assuming a degree of reason here) It is patently logical to me that a people wishing to worship as they please in the Middle East would have to establish a place where they could do so. If size doesn't matter, why is 8,000 sq miles so much to ask? For those that claim a wedge driven through the middle of Israel does not make them any less safe than they are presently, there will be no nuke deployed within Israel proper and the term "divide and conquer" exists for a reason.

The fact of the matter is that borders exist to segregate people based on legislative principles. There is no unique legislative principle by which a Palestinian should require a greater portion of Jewish freedoms. The Palestinian people have been made pawns by a surrounding religious hostility that would not allow their own brethren amongst them to perpetuate a "refugee" problem. So you can go back 50 years or 3000 years, the only reason this ugliness has gone on so long is because Israel is too concerned of its image abroad to simply have a nation-state not unlike any other friggin' nation-state on the globe. Otherwise a hell-bent, mighty force as Israel is claimed to be would simply vanquish its hostile elements. Good intentions gone awry and the political wrangling of a hopeless "diplomacy" that eventually brings out the worst in everyone, Israeli and Palestinian alike.

There can be no agreement in the region. They are at deeply-seeded odds and a Muslim purveyor of territory has proven incapable of allowing for Jewish freedoms. One in this case will simply have to relent to the other or there will never be peace in Israel. Like lions fighting over the gazelle-laden plains, it is the way of things. One wins, one loses and relents. It is ugly, but it is the foundation of every nation-state known to mankind.
Well said, eBuddy
     
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May 21, 2011, 12:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
This puts it in perspective.
If I were a Jew who migrated to Israel, I'd be questioning my rationality of choosing to live in an area where I'm surrounded by my enemies.
     
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May 21, 2011, 12:56 PM
 
ebuddy,

Surely you aren't resorting to "the land was uninhabited" argument? The same line the Europeans used when they settled in South Africa? Like … really? Furthermore, I'm not going to quibble over the "Palestinian" identity. Because quite frankly, some of our good friends on the right get overly hung up on semantics and legalities as defined by the European powers that created this clusterf*ck in the first place. What I'm talking about are the people who were already living on the land when the Ashkenazi Jews immigrated from Europe to the same spot of land. Call those people what you want. Call them Arabs. Call them Bedouin. Call them by their tribal lineage. You can even call them the Watusi! What you call them or what they call themselves is beside the point. The point is that they were human beings who were displaced from their homes. Some straight up ethnically cleansed ... others fled as is typical in warfare. And you have Israelis to this day who settled in houses and neighborhoods and farms that were previously owned by "Palestinians". Now this is a FACT which is quite frankly undeniable. Unless, of course, you've bought into the crazy notion that the land was uninhabited until white people showed up. And even if you won't take it that far … which given your typical reasonableness I'd be truly surprised if you would … I still must take issue with your "stewardship" argument.

If you own a house, can I run you out of your home at gunpoint … leaky roof, dandelions all over the yard, really janky wallpaper, appliances and all … and then morally claim that I deserve this house because I renovated it to the point that it could be a showcased on HGTV?

OAW

PS: Now if you are a making a "might makes right" argument then fine. I can respect that. All I'd ask is that you just put it out there on those terms explicitly.
     
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May 21, 2011, 07:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post

What you and my friend OAW fail to acknowledge is that the conflict stems from adherence to a religion and/or philosophy that has made life throughout most of the Middle East, at best, a dicey affair for the Jew..
Nope, nope, nope, nope. The Arab/Israeli conflict has little to NOTHING to do with religion. You're one of the people who believes Iran's official line that they hate Israel because they're Jewish, aren't you? Maybe the hatred of Israel comes from something else. Like Israel being the recipient of billions of dollars of international aid, after the international community left the rest of the Middle East literally a smoldering ruin.

Islam considers Jews (and Christians) as people of the book. 99% of all Muslims you'll meet on the streets of Cairo, or wherever, will have Jewish friends and family. They aren't okay with the idea of ISRAEL, but are fine with JEWS. Religious accommodation has been the norm in that region for a millenium. Jews enjoy plenty of freedoms throughout the Middle East. Just like Arabs or Muslims within Israel enjoy plenty of freedom.
     
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May 21, 2011, 07:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
There can be no agreement in the region. They are at deeply-seeded odds and a Muslim purveyor of territory has proven incapable of allowing for Jewish freedoms. One in this case will simply have to relent to the other or there will never be peace in Israel. Like lions fighting over the gazelle-laden plains, it is the way of things. One wins, one loses and relents. It is ugly, but it is the foundation of every nation-state known to mankind.
Nope. There had been agreement in the region for a millenium. Under Ottoman, Greek, and Roman Empires. Stop arguing with stereotypes.
     
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May 21, 2011, 10:28 PM
 
Terrorists can never be negotiated with. As long as Hamas continues to call for the destruction of Israel, there is no point in wasting time with negotiations of any kind. In reality, there is no such thing as "Palestinians". They are either Syrian, Jordanian or Egyptian. So if the "palestinians" want land they should talk to those other countries because they were the initial aggressors in the 1967 war which Israel won fair and square despite being ganged up on by several nations.

Maybe Israel should have kept the Sinai Peninsula.

I think it is a crying shame that the US government is turning their back on Israel because any nation that blesses Israel will be blessed but any nation that curses Israel will be cursed. Fortunately the Canadian government has not abandoned Israel which is why Canada is so blessed.

@imitchellg5: Yeah, the Greek and Roman empires at their height of power preceded the rise of Islam and their bloody crusades against non-muslims. The Muslim armies invaded Europe in 700 AD from the Straight of GIbraltar. How do you think the Ottoman Empire came into existence? Through peaceful means? Please.

@OAW: The land was basically uninhabited dessert and the Israelis turned it back into fertile land with oranges growing there. The muslims wanted it back after they saw how fertile it had become.
( Last edited by aristotles; May 21, 2011 at 10:38 PM. )
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May 21, 2011, 10:43 PM
 
If anyone doubts that this conflict is about religion, check out this guy:
Mohammad Amin al-Husayni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/bosnia.html
http://www.ausairpower.net/DT-Islamo-Fascism-2007.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1089006/posts

He was closely connected with the Nazi SS and he is the uncle of Yasser Arafat.

The symbolism and stereotypes used in anti-israeli propaganda by the PLO/Hamas is almost identical to the propaganda of the Nazis against the Jews in WW2.

http://mondediplo.com/2010/05/14blamethemufti
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May 21, 2011, 10:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Islam considers Jews (and Christians) as people of the book. 99% of all Muslims you'll meet on the streets of Cairo, or wherever, will have Jewish friends and family. They aren't okay with the idea of ISRAEL, but are fine with JEWS. Religious accommodation has been the norm in that region for a millenium. Jews enjoy plenty of freedoms throughout the Middle East. Just like Arabs or Muslims within Israel enjoy plenty of freedom.
I find it unlikely that 99% of Muslims you meet in any Muslim country will have Jewish friends. This is especially true in the Middle East where all the Muslim countries expelled (most of?) their Jewish population (if they were lucky) in the 60s and 70s.
     
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May 21, 2011, 10:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by aristotles View Post
If anyone doubts that this conflict is about religion, check out this guy:
Mohammad Amin al-Husayni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He was closely connected with the Nazi SS and he is the uncle of Yasser Arafat.

The symbolism and stereotypes used in anti-israeli propaganda by the PLO/Hamas is almost identical to the propaganda of the Nazis against the Jews in WW2.

Blame the Grand Mufti - Le Monde diplomatique - English edition
Umm, the Nazi policies regarding Jews weren't about religion... They were about scapegoating a (generally unpopular) minority group for larger societal problems. Unless you happen to think that gays and gypsies are religious groups as well.

This is not to say there was no religious component; Hitler and the nazis certainly did not abstain from exploiting the (often not-so) latent anti-semitism of the contemporary German Christianity, but I do not think it's fair to say that religion was a primary motivation.
     
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May 21, 2011, 10:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
I find it unlikely that 99% of Muslims you meet in any Muslim country will have Jewish friends. This is especially true in the Middle East where all the Muslim countries expelled (most of?) their Jewish population (if they were lucky) in the 60s and 70s.
Um, okay. 99% of Muslims that you will meet WILL have Jewish friends.
     
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May 21, 2011, 11:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Umm, the Nazi policies regarding Jews weren't about religion... They were about scapegoating a (generally unpopular) minority group for larger societal problems. Unless you happen to think that gays and gypsies are religious groups as well.

This is not to say there was no religious component; Hitler and the nazis certainly did not abstain from exploiting the (often not-so) latent anti-semitism of the contemporary German Christianity, but I do not think it's fair to say that religion was a primary motivation.
Do us all a favour, turn off your computer and visit a local "library" to brush up on your history. Please do this, thanks.

I wrote several papers on WW2 about both the Soviets and Nazi Germany. I know what I'm talking about and you don't. Seriously, enlighten yourself before you turn into an anti-semite. Reading is fundamental.
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May 21, 2011, 11:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by aristotles View Post
Do us all a favour, turn off your computer and visit a local "library" to brush up on your history. Please do this, thanks.

I wrote several papers on WW2 about both the Soviets and Nazi Germany. I know what I'm talking about and you don't. Seriously, enlighten yourself before you turn into an anti-semite. Reading is fundamental.
Oooooh, several pages, let me bow to you!

Well since I'm a Middle Eastern Studies major, why is anyone even arguing with me? I've written hundreds of pages on the Arab/Israeli conflict just over the past four months!
     
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May 21, 2011, 11:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by aristotles View Post
Do us all a favour, turn off your computer and visit a local "library" to brush up on your history. Please do this, thanks.

I wrote several papers on WW2 about both the Soviets and Nazi Germany. I know what I'm talking about and you don't. Seriously, enlighten yourself before you turn into an anti-semite. Reading is fundamental.
Right... It's pretty rare for Zionist Jews to become anti-Semites, but ok... I hadn't realized that you've written papers about it; obviously if that's the case you must know what you're talking about.
     
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May 21, 2011, 11:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Oooooh, several pages, let me bow to you!

Well since I'm a Middle Eastern Studies major, why is anyone even arguing with me? I've written hundreds of pages on the Arab/Israeli conflict just over the past four months!
Single or double spaced?
     
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May 21, 2011, 11:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Single or double spaced?
Double.
     
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May 21, 2011, 11:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Oooooh, several pages, let me bow to you!

Well since I'm a Middle Eastern Studies major, why is anyone even arguing with me? I've written hundreds of pages on the Arab/Israeli conflict just over the past four months!
Good for you but you need to brush up on WW2 and the connection between the Grand Mufti and the SS. They used the same symbols in their propaganda films and posters.

Do a quick search on Youtube if you dare. I dare you.
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May 21, 2011, 11:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Jews enjoy plenty of freedoms throughout the Middle East.
Is this a joke? Do you know any Jews who have vacationed in Syria or Lebanon recently? The number of Jews left in middle eastern countries (other than Israel of course) is pathetically small.

The claim that 99% of Muslims have Jewish friends is just impossible to believe. The numbers don't allow for that unless every Jew has a thousand Muslim buddies. There are so few Jews in the world, and they are typically concentrated in small areas, that many Muslims probably never even meet a Jew, never-mind befriend them.
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May 21, 2011, 11:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by aristotles View Post
Good for you but you need to brush up on WW2 and the connection between the Grand Mufti and the SS. They used the same symbols in their propaganda films and posters.

Do a quick search on Youtube if you dare. I dare you.
Yes, because YouTube is the safest resource in the world. I'll pass, but I'll be happy to read any academic links you'd like to provide.
     
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May 21, 2011, 11:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
Is this a joke? Do you know any Jews who have vacationed in Syria or Lebanon recently? The number of Jews left in middle eastern countries (other than Israel of course) is pathetically small.
I know Jews in Syria and Lebanon. I'm staying with a Jewish family actually in Beirut this summer. (I don't know anyone in the Middle East who vacations).

The claim that 99% of Muslims have Jewish friends is just impossible to believe. The numbers don't allow for that unless every Jew has a thousand Muslim buddies. There are so few Jews in the world, and they are typically concentrated in small areas, that many Muslims probably never even meet a Jew, never-mind befriend them.
And where are they concentrated? In the Middle East, a small, geographically-confined area.
     
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May 21, 2011, 11:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
I know Jews in Syria and Lebanon. I'm staying with a Jewish family actually in Beirut this summer. (I don't know anyone in the Middle East who vacations).
Are they religious? Do they publicly acknowledge their religion? I'm reading the section on Judaism (Religion in Syria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and it says there are fewer than 200 Jews remaining in Syria. Although the article lacks citations, I'm inclined to believe it. I have never heard of any practicing Jews living in Syria or Lebanon, any kosher restaurants, active synagogues, etc. I know Morocco also has about 200 Jews left. When I was in Jordan I didn't see a single Jew other than tourists and I don't know how many would still go there.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
And where are they concentrated? In the Middle East, a small, geographically-confined area.
I was actually referring to the world as a whole and the US specifically. Are you saying that Muslims worldwide all have Jewish friends or only Muslims in a particular area? There are parts of the US where there isn't a religious Jew for hundreds of miles.
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May 22, 2011, 12:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
Are they religious? Do they publicly acknowledge their religion? I'm reading the section on Judaism (Religion in Syria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and it says there are fewer than 200 Jews remaining in Syria. Although the article lacks citations, I'm inclined to believe it. I have never heard of any practicing Jews living in Syria or Lebanon, any kosher restaurants, active synagogues, etc. I know Morocco also has about 200 Jews left. When I was in Jordan I didn't see a single Jew other than tourists and I don't know how many would still go there.
I assume they are "religious" since they have a "religion." Just over 1% of Lebanon's population is Jewish, they are the largest minority ahead of Druze. Out of 4.5m people, that's a decent enough spread where it seems likely that the every day person would have a Jew within your sphere of influence.

Syria and Jordan are hard to judge because immigration (legal and illegal), especially between minorities, make it hard to get absolute numbers. For example, there are roughly 40k resident Palestinians in Jordan, yet over 1m Palestinian refugees. It's less popular in the media, but Jews, as well as plenty of other people, immigrate all the time between countries in the Middle East.

I was actually referring to the world as a whole and the US specifically. Are you saying that Muslims worldwide all have Jewish friends or only Muslims in a particular area? There are parts of the US where there isn't a religious Jew for hundreds of miles.
Oh, no, I'm talking about the Middle East. I'm guessing that most Indonesian Muslims haven't ever seen a Jew.
     
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May 22, 2011, 03:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by aristotles View Post
Terrorists can never be negotiated with. As long as Hamas continues to call for the destruction of Israel, there is no point in wasting time with negotiations of any kind. In reality, there is no such thing as "Palestinians". They are either Syrian, Jordanian or Egyptian. So if the "palestinians" want land they should talk to those other countries because they were the initial aggressors in the 1967 war which Israel won fair and square despite being ganged up on by several nations.
Not true, the IRA was a successfully negotiated with. All freedom fighters/rebels can be negotiated with as long as there is actual substance from both parties. There has been zero substance from Israel.

I think it is a crying shame that the US government is turning their back on Israel because any nation that blesses Israel will be blessed but any nation that curses Israel will be cursed. Fortunately the Canadian government has not abandoned Israel which is why Canada is so blessed.
And your proud of this, I'm ashamed that my government lacks the balls to do the right thing.

@OAW: The land was basically uninhabited dessert and the Israelis turned it back into fertile land with oranges growing there. The muslims wanted it back after they saw how fertile it had become.
The Muslims wanted it back because of a lot of reasons. Most of them just reasons.
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May 22, 2011, 03:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by aristotles View Post
If anyone doubts that this conflict is about religion, check out this guy:
Mohammad Amin al-Husayni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Turning the West Bank into another "Bosnia"
Hitler's Legacy / Modern Islamo-fascism and its Nazi Origins
Al Qaeda`s Neo-Nazi Connections

He was closely connected with the Nazi SS and he is the uncle of Yasser Arafat.

The symbolism and stereotypes used in anti-israeli propaganda by the PLO/Hamas is almost identical to the propaganda of the Nazis against the Jews in WW2.

Blame the Grand Mufti - Le Monde diplomatique - English edition
Ok so both sides took pages out of the Nazi hand book. One side with symbolism and stereotypes plus propaganda and the other side with open air prison and human kind mistreatment. Top leaders from both sides need to be held accountable for war crimes and crimes against humanity.


Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
I find it unlikely that 99% of Muslims you meet in any Muslim country will have Jewish friends. This is especially true in the Middle East where all the Muslim countries expelled (most of?) their Jewish population (if they were lucky) in the 60s and 70s.


Most of the world has expelled them. First through murder and forced relocation (nazi's) then through voluntary relocation through the creation of Israel. The world didn't go to war with Nazi Germany to save the Jewish people. The world had abandoned Jewish people and turned a blind eye towards it. The quick creation of Israel was not to help Jewish people it was because no one wanted to deal with the refugees created from Nazi Germany.


Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Yes, because YouTube is the safest resource in the world. I'll pass, but I'll be happy to read any academic links you'd like to provide.
Thats not totally fair, a lot of universities have content on youtube now. You can find useful stuff on there that is credible as long as you know how to look and what to look for.

Middle East Jews

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5367892.stm

Oh I love this, Jews that don't support what the nation of Israel does, didn't think this was possible
Mr Hammami says state-run television confuses Zionism and Judaism so that "ordinary people may think that whatever the Israelis do is supported by all Jews".
oh it gets better
Despite the offence Mahmoud Ahmedinejad has caused to Jews around the world, his office recently donated money for Tehran's Jewish hospital.

It is one of only four Jewish charity hospitals worldwide and is funded with money from the Jewish diaspora - something remarkable in Iran where even local aid organisations have difficulty receiving funds from abroad for fear of being accused of being foreign agents.

Most of the patients and staff are Muslim these days, but director Ciamak Morsathegh is Jewish.

"Anti-Semitism is not an eastern phenomenon, it's not an Islamic or Iranian phenomenon - anti-Semitism is a European phenomenon," he says, arguing that Jews in Iran even in their worst days never suffered as much as they did in Europe.

Thousands of them in Iran. If you look at Judaism as a religion only it makes sense that you have Jewish people in Iran, Iraq, Syria and other places because you have people born and raised in these places following a faith. Its like how you have Chinese Muslims in China. They are Chinese people but believe in the Muslim Faith. Is a Stereotypical white man with a long beard born in the US who is Jewish going to be living in Syria, no. But will a Syrian born man stand out a lot in Syria for being Jewish, prob not either. And considering the some what dangerous aspects of being a public Jew in some of these places, the numbers and counts are no doubt not going to reflect real numbers.
( Last edited by Athens; May 22, 2011 at 03:49 AM. )
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May 22, 2011, 03:53 AM
 
Seems the problem is Muslims are against the STATE of Israel not Jewish people. No wonder Jewish people are brain washed into believing that speaking out against Israel is anti Jewish, with out it the state would have no support from even the people that state was created for.
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May 22, 2011, 10:57 AM
 
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May 22, 2011, 11:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Then Israel should annihilate the Palestinians or the Arabs should annihilate Israel. Perhaps the Mighty USofA can give a portion of Florida to be the new Jewish State and they can all migrate there.
The USofA doesn't need to grant land to Jews any more than Canada needs to fix your teeth. The Arabs living in Israel can relent to the governance of Israel just as any people have relented to the governance of their region or they can expect eternal strife in fighting it. They could hop a short bus to any of the surrounding regions of religious solidarity or they can continue attempting to drive the Jew into the Sea politically and otherwise. Their choice is clear, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it or placate you by proposing to relocate Jews.
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May 22, 2011, 11:20 AM
 
A lot has transpired in this thread since I last saw it on Friday.
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
I think you're forgetting that Israel was created specifically as a Jewish state. Only 10 years before 1948, just 3% of Palestine (now Israel's) population was actually Jewish.
What wildly false Arab propaganda have you been taking your talking points from, mitchell? If that were anywhere close to the truth, Israeli independence would have been utterly impossible.

It's strange with you, mitchell - sometimes (well, rarely but at times) you're spot on politically and other times (especially most recently) you're hopelessly lost, confused and deceived. I can't really figure out how that can be. Have you been attending a madrassa or something? Maybe I'll stop it at that. It doesn't make sense to argue with someone who is, for the most part, an ignorant child who thinks himself to be mature and wise.
Originally Posted by aristotles View Post
Seriously, enlighten yourself before you turn into an anti-semite. Reading is fundamental.
aristotles, thank you for adding your pro-Israel voice to the discussion. It's nice to be able to say I'm not the only one around here who puts "Palestinian" in quotation marks because I counted myself among a select few who do so. (I bet some wrongly assumed you were a socket puppet of mine on that very basis.) However, I can assure you that you're barking up the wrong tree with your negative remarks toward non-human. Don't feel bad, though, I once misjudged him too, but in truth he's a brother and friend.
( Last edited by Big Mac; May 22, 2011 at 11:55 AM. )

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May 22, 2011, 11:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Nope, nope, nope, nope. The Arab/Israeli conflict has little to NOTHING to do with religion. You're one of the people who believes Iran's official line that they hate Israel because they're Jewish, aren't you? Maybe the hatred of Israel comes from something else. Like Israel being the recipient of billions of dollars of international aid, after the international community left the rest of the Middle East literally a smoldering ruin.
Or maybe it is Zionism that threatens the Islamic World ~ Ahmadinejad
The "smoldering ruin" you're talking about has already been the result of rival Islamic factions.

You've been duped and the Islamic academia you're peddling to impressionable minds here is bent. It is entirely religious.

Islam considers Jews (and Christians) as people of the book. 99% of all Muslims you'll meet on the streets of Cairo, or wherever, will have Jewish friends and family. They aren't okay with the idea of ISRAEL, but are fine with JEWS.
Okay, so what do you suppose is the "idea of ISRAEL"? I'll answer for you to ensure a little clarity here; the self determination of Jewish people in a sovereign, Jewish national homeland. Your notion of Muslims throughout the Middle East regularly entertaining their Jewish friends and family is laughable, ignorant, and absurd. Your appeal to authority was the idea that you'll be staying with a Jewish family in the Middle East and while you don't know whether or not they're practicing Jews (I'm not buyin' this bs for a second), you just assume they are. Remember this when they tell you the laws of apostasy for Muslims or the laws regarding the proselytization of anything other than Islam. Although we employ a form of jizya in the US, it's usually contingent upon your income.

Religious accommodation has been the norm in that region for a millenium. Jews enjoy plenty of freedoms throughout the Middle East. Just like Arabs or Muslims within Israel enjoy plenty of freedom.
No, sorry. This is patently false. I'd be willing to bet there are more functioning synagogues in Jerusalem than the remainder of the entire Middle East. Of course, you're welcome to tout this religious freedom to those of hundreds of burned-out churches and women and children lured out and chopped down by machetes based on... why... the idea of ISRAEL of course. In this you're correct, it's not always about JEWS. Sometimes it's about anyone other than practicing Muslims.
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May 22, 2011, 12:06 PM
 
Wow, I didn't even read that "stellar" post from mitch to which you've responded so eloquently ebuddy. He's so ridiculously deluded that the only thing I can assume is that he's been actively brainwashed by Arab-Islamic propaganda. He thinks that Jews are liked in Egypt? I guess he missed seeing the testimony of Lara Logan - when they were tearing at her limbs and violating her private areas with their disgusting hands, shouting at her all the while "Jew Jew Jew!" Jew is a derogatory term in the Arab-Islamic world. Not among all obviously, but among vast quantities of populations. In Iraq they refer to Saddam Hussein as a Jew because of their hatred for him. When the masses shout "death to Israel," they also commonly shout "death to the Jews." And it's absolutely a fact that the vast majority of the Arab-Islamic world has no contact with Jews because their Jewish population was ethnically cleansed and expelled when Israel achieved independence. If you, mitchell, think anything else is true, you're simply ignorant and just completely out to lunch.

Mitchell, you objectively have no business participating in discussions on this topic as long as you're so out of touch with reality. You're a space cadet. I don't say that out of anger or spite. I say objectively and seriously. Your ignorant and delusional rhetoric is astounding. Even Muslim propagandists would tell you you're wrong in many of these outlandish claims you've made.
( Last edited by Big Mac; May 22, 2011 at 12:16 PM. )

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May 22, 2011, 12:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
ebuddy,

Surely you aren't resorting to "the land was uninhabited" argument? The same line the Europeans used when they settled in South Africa? Like … really?
Don't get all "texty" with me with the "like... really?" nonsense OAW. You'll have to trust your reading comprehension and the fact that you've not addressed a well-documented trait of that region prior to its development.

Furthermore, I'm not going to quibble over the "Palestinian" identity.
It is good that you wouldn't as the identity was birthed from a mispronounced, later contrived attempt at self-determination for a non-sect of people to perpetuate strife in the region.

Because quite frankly, some of our good friends on the right get overly hung up on semantics and legalities as defined by the European powers that created this clusterf*ck in the first place. What I'm talking about are the people who were already living on the land when the Ashkenazi Jews immigrated from Europe to the same spot of land. Call those people what you want. Call them Arabs. Call them Bedouin. Call them by their tribal lineage. You can even call them the Watusi! What you call them or what they call themselves is beside the point. The point is that they were human beings who were displaced from their homes. Some straight up ethnically cleansed ... others fled as is typical in warfare. And you have Israelis to this day who settled in houses and neighborhoods and farms that were previously owned by "Palestinians". Now this is a FACT which is quite frankly undeniable. Unless, of course, you've bought into the crazy notion that the land was uninhabited until white people showed up. And even if you won't take it that far … which given your typical reasonableness I'd be truly surprised if you would … I still must take issue with your "stewardship" argument.
None of this addresses the "stewardship" argument. So... we're going to have a pissing contest over who was the more oppressed in the region and who is living on who's land? You want to talk recent history, someone addresses that, now you want to pop back into the last century and earlier? Make up your mind. The "Palestinian" identity people keep bring up that annoys you so is critical to understanding why an 8,000 sq mi piece of land is so highly contentious today. People have been driven out an immigrated back to this region since time immemorial. If we're talking today, we're talking about a people who will not relent to the governance of the territory. They can insist on fighting it, but this will only perpetuate strife.

If you own a house, can I run you out of your home at gunpoint … leaky roof, dandelions all over the yard, really janky wallpaper, appliances and all … and then morally claim that I deserve this house because I renovated it to the point that it could be a showcased on HGTV?
Yeah, it's called taking over the taxes for people obviously not capable of paying them and assuming their property. Happens all the time. It doesn't matter if you're talking about 5 years ago or 3,000 years ago. A people unwilling to relent to the governance of a region will be forever in strife against it. If the ruling faction over the region relents more to their image abroad than addressing the hostile element within it, they too will be subjected to endless turmoil. This is the plight, in a nutshell, today.

PS: Now if you are a making a "might makes right" argument then fine. I can respect that. All I'd ask is that you just put it out there on those terms explicitly.
The only reason you felt it necessary to add this little bit was precisely because I was perfectly clear and explicit.
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May 22, 2011, 01:12 PM
 
Among other objections, did anyone else notice the inherent racism in OAW's post?

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May 22, 2011, 07:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
What wildly false Arab propaganda have you been taking your talking points from, mitchell? If that were anywhere close to the truth, Israeli independence would have been utterly impossible.
What? It's the UN's own numbers.
It's strange with you, mitchell - sometimes (well, rarely but at times) you're spot on politically and other times (especially most recently) you're hopelessly lost, confused and deceived. I can't really figure out how that can be. Have you been attending a madrassa or something? Maybe I'll stop it at that. It doesn't make sense to argue with someone who is, for the most part, an ignorant child who thinks himself to be mature and wise.
I'm pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian. Go figure it out, I've explained more in other threads. I don't want Israel to be wiped off the face of the planet, and I don't want Palestine to be either.
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May 22, 2011, 07:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
You've been duped and the Islamic academia you're peddling to impressionable minds here is bent. It is entirely religious.
What? What "Islamic academia?" You don't understand me or know me at all. I'm looking this objectively. I read books that are pretty much unbiased narratives. Arthur Goldschmidt's Concise History of the Modern Middle East, for example. Or are you just believing what you see on CNN? Because your viewpoint seems like every stereotypical American who forms opinions based off of mass media or the line from the White House.

Edit: Read the Wikipedia article, if you want: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire#Religion

Okay, so what do you suppose is the "idea of ISRAEL"? I'll answer for you to ensure a little clarity here; the self determination of Jewish people in a sovereign, Jewish national homeland. Your notion of Muslims throughout the Middle East regularly entertaining their Jewish friends and family is laughable, ignorant, and absurd. Your appeal to authority was the idea that you'll be staying with a Jewish family in the Middle East and while you don't know whether or not they're practicing Jews (I'm not buyin' this bs for a second), you just assume they are. Remember this when they tell you the laws of apostasy for Muslims or the laws regarding the proselytization of anything other than Islam. Although we employ a form of jizya in the US, it's usually contingent upon your income.
What do you define as a practicing Jew? I haven't asked if they go to synagogue for bar mitzvahs or have a menorah in their home. Because if they call themselves Jews (especially in Lebanon), they're more than likely not taking the claim because they think it's cute. You don't have to go to synagogue or wear clothes that identify you as a religion to be a part of that religion.

There are no such laws in Lebanon. Or any country I care to visit.


No, sorry. This is patently false. I'd be willing to bet there are more functioning synagogues in Jerusalem than the remainder of the entire Middle East. Of course, you're welcome to tout this religious freedom to those of hundreds of burned-out churches and women and children lured out and chopped down by machetes based on... why... the idea of ISRAEL of course. In this you're correct, it's not always about JEWS. Sometimes it's about anyone other than practicing Muslims.
No duh, because it's the center of the Jewish faith. Hundreds of burned out churches today, sure. But there is a historical precedent for peace in the area, not the typical CNN-style "war-torn for centuries" BS. And that historical precedent for peace gives me hope, because I know that if both sides agree to put aside certain differences for the betterment of their future, that peace is possible. NEITHER side is going to be able to get what they want, but that's what happens when you compromise. The Ottomans were able to keep a handle on the area (with much more varied beliefs than just Islam and Judaism) through the allowance of the same rights regardless of political or religious background. Yet people would rather argue and fight about it then try it out, I suppose. What a shame. Instead the medium for Israelis and Palestinians remains suffering off of each other. The only thing that can be guaranteed is that if people keep saying the same thing that you or Big Mac are arguing, there will never be peace or justice, for any side.
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May 22, 2011, 08:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
What? It's the UN's own numbers.
Aside from the fact that the UN has always been Arab-biased, I find it quite impossible that such a stat was ever published. Not only do I know that to be false based on population statistics I know, it would have been logistically impossible for Israel to have had a sufficient population to fend of the "conquering Arab armies" if they had been such a small fraction of the population a decade earlier. That's especially true because the British curtailed Jewish immigration to the territory as a matter of policy.

So I call absolute BS on that claim, Mitch. Please provide the source of that alleged statistic (and I hope it's not palestineforever.org).

I'm pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian. Go figure it out, I've explained more in other threads. I don't want Israel to be wiped off the face of the planet, and I don't want Palestine to be either.
Being pro-Israel and pro-Palestine is oxymoronic since the Palestinian identity is predicated nearly exclusively on the destruction of Israel, and on all sorts of terrorism - suicide bombings, purposeful murdering of infants in their cribs, kidnapping of soldiers, launching of rockets on civilians purposely - and other such acts of barbarous conduct. You can be pro-Arab to an extent and still be pro-Israel, but pro-Palestine is a different level. Pro-Palestine puts you in league with that which is intrinsically evil (although I don't mean to imply by that that all who identify as Palestinians are evil but rather that the underlying identity is based on evil premises). You may as well call yourself pro-Nazi or pro-Al Qaeda if you're pro-Palestine by choice and with knowledge of what that identity truly entails.
( Last edited by Big Mac; May 22, 2011 at 08:30 PM. )

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May 22, 2011, 08:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Aside from the fact that the UN has always been Arab-biased, I find it quite impossible that such a stat was ever published. Not only do I know that to be false based on population statistics I know, it would have been logistically impossible for Israel to have had a sufficient population to fend of the "conquering Arab armies" if they had been such a small fraction of the population a decade earlier. That's especially true because the British curtailed Jewish immigration to the territory as a matter of policy.

So I call absolute BS on that claim, Mitch. Please provide the source of that alleged statistic (and I hope it's not palestineforever.org).
It was the prompt for a final exam I just took in a Political Science class. "According to UN statistics, in 1937, 3% of the region called Palestine claimed to be Jewish. By 1943, that number had grown to 33%. Discuss." Though when I'm looking up those numbers, it seems as though that is from the Peel Commission, which was British, and also likely biased. I'll edit when I can find concrete numbers.

EDIT: This site has a lot of sources. So it isn't as lopsided, but still very predominately Palestinian in 1936. Historic Population of Israel/Palestine

Also, I've never been to palestineforever.org. I'm not looking at sitess like that for information.

Being pro-Israel and pro-Palestine is oxymoronic since the Palestinian identity is predicated nearly exclusively on the destruction of Israel, on terrorism, suicide bombings, purposeful murdering of infants in their cribs and other such acts of barbarous conduct.
Says the one who has vested interests in the matter. And I cannot make claims to either identity.

Dangit, I added a ton of stuff and my tethering crapped out. Apologies, I'm working from a 700~kbps connection ATM.

I didn't explain it well. I believe that Israelis and Palestinians are both entitled to their own states. As I believe the Kurds are as well. They are able to attach themselves to certain notions of identity that exist within the realms of a nation, thus I feel they should be allowed to form their own government if they so desire. Israel already has its own government, which is great. But, I would argue that because of the Husien-McMahon agreement as well as the Balfour Declaration, and because of the fragmented reality of post-World War I and WWII, that the creation of the state of Israel alone (regardless of religious belief), was enough spark to engage the region in conflict. Israel exists within geographical confines that aren't easily overcome, as you can see with issues like water rights. So, in essence, the creation of the state (no matter what your personal beliefs are), upset the status quo enough to create this conflict. I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, because it happened, and it's done. Israel is a sovereign state, and it certainly wouldn't do ANYONE good to take away that sovereignty. Perhaps now you can see where I am coming from. In my view, factors such as "Muslim" or "Jew" only are a factor if they are being attached to the idea of "Israeli" or "Palestinian." Which they aren't always, as we've discussed at length.
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May 22, 2011, 08:42 PM
 
Thank you for the link. I have a lecture to attend to tonight so I'll have to look at it later.

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May 22, 2011, 08:56 PM
 
Sure. I am finding academic sources now that have pretty much those same numbers now through academic search engines (EBSCOhost, etc).

Concrete numbers for any of this (even today) is difficult to find.
     
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May 22, 2011, 09:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
What do you define as a practicing Jew? I haven't asked if they go to synagogue for bar mitzvahs or have a menorah in their home. Because if they call themselves Jews (especially in Lebanon)...
Say no more. You've obviously gotten the point.

Enjoy your time with this Jewish family and all their Muslim friends.
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May 22, 2011, 10:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Say no more. You've obviously gotten the point.

Enjoy your time with this Jewish family and all their Muslim friends.
I wasn't referring to specifically them, but I guess you're not taking anything seriously, so why bother?
     
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May 22, 2011, 11:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
What do you define as a practicing Jew? I haven't asked if they go to synagogue for bar mitzvahs or have a menorah in their home. Because if they call themselves Jews (especially in Lebanon), they're more than likely not taking the claim because they think it's cute. You don't have to go to synagogue or wear clothes that identify you as a religion to be a part of that religion.
I'll accept that there might be individuals in the Arab countries whose mothers are Jewish so technically they are Jewish. But, with zero active synagogues, schools, or restaurants there are essentially zero observant Jews. Why? Because if they outwardly practiced their religion they would be killed.

Like I said, I've been to Jordan, and many of my Jewish friends have been to Egypt and Morocco and you can count the Jews there on two hands. Once sort of exception is Turkey, which until this past year has always had a lot of Israeli and Jewish tourists (myself included). However, even there the kosher restaurants are too afraid to advertise themselves as being kosher in the window. Religious tolerance my ass (even in the more moderate countries!).
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May 23, 2011, 12:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
The USofA doesn't need to grant land to Jews any more than Canada needs to fix your teeth. The Arabs living in Israel can relent to the governance of Israel just as any people have relented to the governance of their region or they can expect eternal strife in fighting it. They could hop a short bus to any of the surrounding regions of religious solidarity or they can continue attempting to drive the Jew into the Sea politically and otherwise. Their choice is clear, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it or placate you by proposing to relocate Jews.
Whats the problem with a new Israel being placed in America. Oh right, forgot like most of the world its happy the Jews are self exiling so its not their problems any more. Why the hell are Jews hated so much. Can some one please explain this to me. And I dont mean the Muslims, I mean Europe in the 1900's including North America.
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May 23, 2011, 12:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
I'll accept that there might be individuals in the Arab countries whose mothers are Jewish so technically they are Jewish. But, with zero active synagogues, schools, or restaurants there are essentially zero observant Jews. Why? Because if they outwardly practiced their religion they would be killed.

Like I said, I've been to Jordan, and many of my Jewish friends have been to Egypt and Morocco and you can count the Jews there on two hands. Once sort of exception is Turkey, which until this past year has always had a lot of Israeli and Jewish tourists (myself included). However, even there the kosher restaurants are too afraid to advertise themselves as being kosher in the window. Religious tolerance my ass (even in the more moderate countries!).
So you're saying that to be Jewish, you must have access to Jewish synagogues, schools, and restaurants? That seems quite different from the days when Jews would practice their faith quietly in their homes when faced with oppression.
     
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May 23, 2011, 12:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Among other objections, did anyone else notice the inherent racism in OAW's post?
maybe you can post the racist part becauase I don't recall seeing anything racist in his posts.
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May 23, 2011, 12:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
What? It's the UN's own numbers.


I'm pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian. Go figure it out, I've explained more in other threads. I don't want Israel to be wiped off the face of the planet, and I don't want Palestine to be either.
Im Pro Jew, Anti Israel, nutrual on Palestinian lol
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May 23, 2011, 12:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Whats the problem with a new Israel being placed in America. Oh right, forgot like most of the world its happy the Jews are self exiling so its not their problems any more. Why the hell are Jews hated so much. Can some one please explain this to me. And I dont mean the Muslims, I mean Europe in the 1900's including North America.
It's the same thing with Palestinians. Why doesn't Egypt or Saudi Arabia proffer land for Palestinians, instead of giving them millions of dollars? The world would rather they stay in the back yard, instead of invite them inside. Even though Iran funds many Palestinian militants, remember that Iran HATES the idea of Arabs just as much as Jews. Arabs may be the lesser evil to them, because of Islam, but Iran distinctly claims a different identity than that of an Arab.
     
 
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