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Obama and the Israeli borders (Page 5)
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May 26, 2011, 02:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Well what do you think I believe? Don't subscribe to BigMacs false BS about me because its all lies.
I don't know anything about you or your ethnic or educational background so I don't know what you believe. I'm here to share my thoughts and learn what I can learn and teach what I can teach.
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May 26, 2011, 02:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
I don't know anything about you or your ethnic or educational background so I don't know what you believe. I'm here to share my thoughts and learn what I can learn and teach what I can teach.
Then let me clear up my position and point of view because BigMac is doing nothing but propaganda against me.

I don't like the State of Israel. I hold its government and military in contempt for its methods and actions on the way it deals with Terrorism and how the Country does everything it can to provoke the Palestinians.

I have no Problems with Jewish People or Culture or Faith. I do see the Country of Israel as just that a country no different then Egypt, Germany, Australia. I hold it to account the same as I do any other nation on this planet. I refuse to believe that being Anti Israel automatically makes me Anti Jew.

Do I think that Israel has taken some lessons and pages out of the Nazi play book on how it does some things like Gaza being same thing as the Warsaw Ghetto, you bet. It might be offensive but its how I feel about the current situation. Does that make me a Jew hater no. Until I meet BigMac I didn't hate a single Jew on this planet. I've never had a issue with them and still to this day don't understand why they are hated which no one has answered. But im starting to see if most of them are like BigMac it could be a personality problem leading to it.
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May 26, 2011, 02:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
WHAT THE F### ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT HOW THE F*** DID YOU MAKE THIS INTO A RACE THING Im racist because I don't believe in races and that we are all one people. Thats just F'ing great.
Dude, I can see you're melting down there, but you're the one who made it about race when you brought up the discredited racist theory of the Khazars in an attempt to delegitimatize European Jewry. You have no right to be offended when you're the one who caused the offense. Now that I pointed it out to you and made you look stupid, you want to shoot the messenger. Very impressive. And again, even OAW called you out for bringing up the Khazars in the way you did, so why aren't you screaming at him, jerkass?

I'm sorry that you're so agitated because you brought up a stupid claim and lost the debate. Now you're throwing temper tantrums and it's really unseemly.
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Then let me clear up my position and point of view because BigMac is doing nothing but propaganda against me.
If you think it's just propaganda I'm spreading about you then why are you so agitated to the point that you're cursing and screaming, virtually speaking? Remember, once again, you're the one who brought up a discredited racist theory that even a natural ally of yours OAW told you was discredited.

I don't like the State of Israel. I hold its government and military in contempt for its methods and actions on the way it deals with Terrorism and how the Country does everything it can to provoke the Palestinians.
Everything it can do to provoke the "Palestinians"? Like giving them water and electricity infrastructure that they often don't pay for? Like educating them? Like giving them arms in the course of the Oslo Accords for them to supposedly rule themselves, which they then turned on Israeli soldiers? Like withdrawing from Gaza and ethnically cleansing it of Jews in the name of peace? Like falsely legitimizing their illegitimate terrorist identities and aspirations? Like saving their lives even while others among them are attacking Israelis? Like giving them Israeli tax money? Like giving them jobs and opportunity? Like giving Arab citizens of Israel, 1 million strong, the highest Arab standard of living in the Middle East? Like protecting the religious sites of all religions in the country, especially Islam's?

Oh, wait, I guess any action Israel takes to protect itself is endlessly provocative and evil in your eyes. So Israel should just lay all its arms down, right?

I have no Problems with Jewish People or Culture or Faith. I do see the Country of Israel as just that a country no different then Egypt, Germany, Australia. I hold it to account the same as I do any other nation on this planet. I refuse to believe that being Anti Israel automatically makes me Anti Jew.
When you're so utterly delusional that you see tiny Israel as the aggressor instead of the victim. When all you can do is bring up how evil Israeli actions are. When you can't say anything good about the only stable democracy in the Middle East. When you see no fault of the so-called "Palestinians" and don't have any words of condemnation when they commit war crimes When you lose an argument by bringing up a discredited racist theory and then have an open temper tantrum because you can't force your pathetically ignorant views on this forum. That makes you anti-Jew. And oh yeah, when you say with all your hatred that the entire region - Jew and Arab - should be nuked. All that makes you very decidedly a Jew-hater. You should go ahead and wear it proudly Athens.

Do I think that Israel has taken some lessons and pages out of the Nazi play book on how it does some things like Gaza being same thing as the Warsaw Ghetto, you bet. It might be offensive but its how I feel about the current situation.
You know nothing of the truth about Israel, and you know nothing of the Warsaw ghetto. The fact you invoke the memory of the Warsaw ghetto in condemning Israel - essentially calling Israel Nazi Germany - makes you one of the most despicable creatures ever on these forums. I understand that you would like to see Israel turned into a modern Warsaw ghetto. I can tell that it infuriates you that Arabs didn't commit genocide in 1948. The joke is on you, Athens. And it will continue to be on you because my people have no intention of lying down to die like the easily victimized, oven-bound kikes you want us to be. (And for the record I use that vile term very carefully, not as a slap to Holocaust victims but to describe the way Jew-haters truly think of us.)

Does that make me a Jew hater no. Until I meet BigMac I didn't hate a single Jew on this planet.
I seldom get bigger compliments than your hatred. Thank you so much.

I've never had a issue with them and still to this day don't understand why they are hated which no one has answered. But im starting to see if most of them are like BigMac it could be a personality problem leading to it.
I want you to sit down for this one because this will upset you. After the triumph of the Six Day War Israel immediately began conceding to the enemy. And those concessions ultimately led to the self-destructive Oslo Accords that have led us to where we are today. But Israelis are tired of rewarding radical and terrorist Muslims with more and more and getting nothing in return. Jews in general are tired of it too. The only reason why Netanyahu was able to be as strong as he was to Obama this month was because he has a center-right coalition that is fed up with the Oslo, post-Zionist mentality.

So the great news is, Athens, you'll have many more Jews to hate because more and more Jews are exactly like me. And you know what else, to my surprise, I meet more and more guys my age who are just as right-wing if not more so than I am! All the opinion polls show that young Israelis especially are sick of the destruction that the sham peace process has wrought in their country and are turning right wing. Isn't that delightful news? Aren't you pleased? You'll have so many more Jews to hate! And the best part is, we're just going to keep growing in numbers. You better go run to join the Canadian Nazi Party and put on your Hitler mustache because Jews like me are taking control, and we're not afraid to tell you the truth that you don't like to hear.
( Last edited by Big Mac; May 26, 2011 at 03:01 PM. )

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May 26, 2011, 02:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Dude, I can see you're melting down there, but you're the one who made it about race when you brought up the discredited racist theory of the Khazars in an attempt to delegitimatize European Jewry. You have no right to be offended when you're the one who caused the offense. Now that I pointed it out to you and made you look stupid, you want to shoot the messenger. Very impressive.
NO I DIDN'T, I brought up something about Jews being from many different ethnic backgrounds to disprove the theory of Jews themselves being a separate race. Had nothing to do with delegitimatizing European Jewry. That all came from you.
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May 26, 2011, 02:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
NO I DIDN'T, I brought up something about Jews being from many different ethnic backgrounds to disprove the theory of Jews themselves being a separate race. Had nothing to do with delegitimatizing European Jewry. That all came from you.
No. Nuh uh. Now you're just lying:

Originally Posted by Athens
Most Jews of today are whites pretending to be Hebrews, not all but most.

Most of the Jews in Israel are Khazar Jews, AshkeNAZI Jews. The real Middle East Jews, the Sephardic Jews are secondclass citizens in Israel. They are the Semitic Jews not the Khazars. The Zionist Jews are AshkeNAZI, Khazar Jews therefore they are not Semitic people. The use of the word "anti-semetic" a tool created by the zionist ADL is fraudulent and used as a weapon of all who oppose or question Zionism or the Zionist state's(Israel) wrong doings. The only true semites are ARABS and Sephardim Jews. Khazaria is situated in Eastern Europe where even AshkeNAZI "Jewish" historians can trace their lineage to. There is no link to "Israel" whatsoever. The AshkeNAZI/ Khazar "Jew" is a 7th century convert to Judaism.
You accused both myself and Big Mac (and many others) of being 'whites pretending to be Hebrews' based purely on our ethnic persuasion (Ashkenazi). I don't know how that could be interpreted other than as an attempt to 'delegitimize European Jewry'. You go on to 'justify' this accusation by using the thoroughly discredited theory of the Khazar Jews and ignoring the many genetic studies that illustrate a direct lineage of even us Ashkenazim to the Middle East. Not only was your accusation personal and offensive, it's based on outdated, discredited information.

And don't even get me started on your 'AshkeNAZI' cleverness.

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May 26, 2011, 02:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
No. Nuh uh. Now you're just lying:



You accused both myself and Big Mac (and many others) of being 'whites pretending to be Hebrews' based purely on our ethnic persuasion (Ashkenazi). You go on to 'justify' this accusation by using the thoroughly discredited theory of the Khazar Jews and ignoring the many genetic studies that illustrate a direct lineage of even us Ashkenazim to the Middle East. Not only was your accusation personal and offensive, it's based on outdated, discredited information.

And don't even get me started on your 'AshkeNAZI' cleverness.

Ass.
Oh ya great job cherry picking lets try this again


[QUOT=Chongo;4080052]Catholic is not an ethnic group, nor is Muslim, Shinto, Sikh, etc. Jewish is both a religion and an ethnicity.[/QUOT]

I call BS on the ethnicity claim

Why write it better when I can steal some one elses opinion on it that lays it out better then I could

Most Jews of today are whites pretending to be Hebrews, not all but most.

Most of the Jews in Israel are Khazar Jews, AshkeNAZI Jews. The real Middle East Jews, the Sephardic Jews are secondclass citizens in Israel. They are the Semitic Jews not the Khazars. The Zionist Jews are AshkeNAZI, Khazar Jews therefore they are not Semitic people. The use of the word "anti-semetic" a tool created by the zionist ADL is fraudulent and used as a weapon of all who oppose or question Zionism or the Zionist state's(Israel) wrong doings. The only true semites are ARABS and Sephardim Jews. Khazaria is situated in Eastern Europe where even AshkeNAZI "Jewish" historians can trace their lineage to. There is no link to "Israel" whatsoever. The AshkeNAZI/ Khazar "Jew" is a 7th century convert to Judaism.

Ashkenazi Jews are white, The Sephardic/Mizrahim Hews are Semetic or Middle Eastern origins which btw generically are the same people as the Palestinians which is why I say its the same people but of 2 different faiths. Palestinians and Semetic Jews have a common genetic ancestry going back 2000 years. Basically the Jews of the day are the ones that left, and the ones that stayed became the Palestinians. DNA suggests the Khazar Jews are supposed to be Central Asian, maybe Turkish who are converts from a long time ago.

When it comes to Ethnics Semetic Jews, Syrians and Palestinians are the same people. The rest are converts of recent history or modern day and a mix like every one else of Europeans, Blacks and Asians. I believe the Falasha Jews are from Africa?


I clearly states I took that from some one else. Its should be clear that my intentions where to disprove claims that Jews are a race itself when they are made up of a ton of different ethnic groups. At best its a culture not a race.

So perhaps one of you iceholes would be kind enough to explain to me what is racist about the Khazar Jews. BigMac you know dam well I know little about jewish people otherwise I wouldn't have been asking you to clear up stuff in the past. I REALLY don't see what is racist in that post outside of saying Jews are not a race.
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May 26, 2011, 02:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
I don't like the State of Israel. I hold its government and military in contempt for its methods and actions on the way it deals with Terrorism and how the Country does everything it can to provoke the Palestinians.
I'm sorry you don't like the state of Israel. As I asked earlier, how could they be doing things differently? It is hard to describe living in a country under threat of daily terrorist attacks so I don't expect you to understand what that's like, but given those conditions I've seen nothing but restraint on the part of the Israeli military.

Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Do I think that Israel has taken some lessons and pages out of the Nazi play book on how it does some things like Gaza being same thing as the Warsaw Ghetto, you bet.
I take significant exception to anyone comparing the Nazis to anyone. Having closed borders with Gaza is no different than any other country in the world securing their borders from their neighbors. Furthermore, Israel doesn't maintain the border with Gaza for the purpose of systematically exterminating them. It does so for its protection and in compliance with international law.
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May 26, 2011, 02:53 PM
 
I think I did learn something though, seems Jews are racist against each other more then any other cultural groups, perhaps the most racist people on this planet if one kind of Jew sparks such a massive emotional response for other kinds of Jews.
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May 26, 2011, 02:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Oh ya great job cherry picking lets try this again

I clearly states I took that from some one else. Its should be clear that my intentions where to disprove claims that Jews are a race itself when they are made up of a ton of different ethnic groups. At best its a culture not a race.

So perhaps one of you iceholes would be kind enough to explain to me what is racist about the Khazar Jews. BigMac you know dam well I know little about jewish people otherwise I wouldn't have been asking you to clear up stuff in the past. I REALLY don't see what is racist in that post outside of saying Jews are not a race.
Doesn't really seem reasonable to call it cherry picking when it's a specifically relevant quote from you (yes, maybe it came from someone else originally, but you chose to post it as support for your ideas).

It's totally fine for you to think that there isn't a Jewish race. What isn't fine is your tossing about accusations about who and who isn't a Jew and ethnic slurs.

Posting that you don't believe that Jews represent a race is not racist, and is even a defensible position. It's the way in which you chose to represent and support your ideas that is both offensive and racist (and yes, it's certainly racist; look it up).

And if you admittedly know so little about Jewish people perhaps you should stop running your mouth about what we are and are not. I don't think anyone here would have a problem with a calm, civil discussion about these issues, but I fail to see how you could reasonably believe that quoting racist drivel (yes, even if you don't believe there's a Jewish race it would be racist to claim that 'white' Ashkenazim are somehow inferior, or less Jewish, than Mizrahim based solely on their racial characteristics) and clearly defamatory plays on the word 'Ashkenazi' could be anything other than inflammatory.

Perhaps you didn't realize that these things would be offensive. That's fine. I hope you do now. And I hope that knowing that these things are offensive you now realize how posting them severely damages your credibility in this discussion, not to mention anyone's desire to deal with you civilly.
     
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May 26, 2011, 02:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
No. Nuh uh. Now you're just lying:

You accused both myself and Big Mac (and many others) of being 'whites pretending to be Hebrews' based purely on our ethnic persuasion (Ashkenazi). I don't know how that could be interpreted other than as an attempt to 'delegitimize European Jewry'. You go on to 'justify' this accusation by using the thoroughly discredited theory of the Khazar Jews and ignoring the many genetic studies that illustrate a direct lineage of even us Ashkenazim to the Middle East. Not only was your accusation personal and offensive, it's based on outdated, discredited information.

And don't even get me started on your 'AshkeNAZI' cleverness.

Ass.
QFT QFT QFT! Perfect. Absolutely perfect. I missed his "pretending to be Hebrews" and "AshkeNAZI" bits because I have him on ignore. Golden. An online debate with a thinly-veiled rabid Jew-hater doesn't get much better than this.

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May 26, 2011, 02:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
I think I did learn something though, seems Jews are racist against each other more then any other cultural groups, perhaps the most racist people on this planet if one kind of Jew sparks such a massive emotional response for other kinds of Jews.
I honestly have no idea what you mean by this.
     
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May 26, 2011, 03:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
I honestly have no idea what you mean by this.
Yeah, WTF is he referring by that? Is Athens calling himself a Jew now? Actually, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he had some Jewish ancestry since some Jews in history have turned out to be some of the most passionate haters of fellow Jews.

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May 26, 2011, 03:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
I'm sorry you don't like the state of Israel. As I asked earlier, how could they be doing things differently? It is hard to describe living in a country under threat of daily terrorist attacks so I don't expect you to understand what that's like, but given those conditions I've seen nothing but restraint on the part of the Israeli military.
Option one, investigate the rocket attack, identify the persons involved, then arrest them and in court convict them.

Option two, bomb buildings, blow up shit and kill people to inspire fear hoping enough fear might stop the rocket attacks.

I take significant exception to anyone comparing the Nazis to anyone. Having closed borders with Gaza is no different than any other country in the world securing their borders from their neighbors. Furthermore, Israel doesn't maintain the border with Gaza for the purpose of systematically exterminating them. It does so for its protection and in compliance with international law.
Gaza isn't a closed off Border, its a open prison. Otherwise aid groups wouldn't be shoot at when trying to reach Gaza by water. All 4 sides are closed off to a military blockage by Israel, its a prison not a closed off border. It is very much like the Eastern European Ghettos before in 1943 they got transformed into concentration camps. Walls, Fences, underground tunnels people sneaking in and out, Gaza totally Dependant on Israel. Its offensive but it is still very similar.
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May 26, 2011, 03:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Doesn't really seem reasonable to call it cherry picking when it's a specifically relevant quote from you (yes, maybe it came from someone else originally, but you chose to post it as support for your ideas).

It's totally fine for you to think that there isn't a Jewish race. What isn't fine is your tossing about accusations about who and who isn't a Jew and ethnic slurs.

Posting that you don't believe that Jews represent a race is not racist, and is even a defensible position. It's the way in which you chose to represent and support your ideas that is both offensive and racist (and yes, it's certainly racist; look it up).

And if you admittedly know so little about Jewish people perhaps you should stop running your mouth about what we are and are not. I don't think anyone here would have a problem with a calm, civil discussion about these issues, but I fail to see how you could reasonably believe that quoting racist drivel (yes, even if you don't believe there's a Jewish race it would be racist to claim that 'white' Ashkenazim are somehow inferior, or less Jewish, than Mizrahim based solely on their racial characteristics) and clearly defamatory plays on the word 'Ashkenazi' could be anything other than inflammatory.
I didn't say any one kind of Jew was inferior then another kind. This is what has me totally awwed, I found something that looked like it explained a bunch of different kind of Jews of different ethnic groups to support there is no one race for jews and then all this blows up around me.

Perhaps you didn't realize that these things would be offensive. That's fine. I hope you do now. And I hope that knowing that these things are offensive you now realize how posting them severely damages your credibility in this discussion, not to mention anyone's desire to deal with you civilly.
Ok there is a misconception here, i didn't know those where ethnic slurs. I thought those represented different kinds of Jewish people. Like how you have many tribes in african countries. I didn't know any of that was racist in any way.
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May 26, 2011, 03:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
I honestly have no idea what you mean by this.
The strong reaction against different kind of Jews by you and BigMac. its like if your a Hebrew Jew, the European ones are nothing neither are the black ones and so one. That appears racist against your own people.
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May 26, 2011, 03:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
The occupation of the West Bank and blockades against Gaza are and will remain a matter of security for Israelis. This is their reality. Forced expulsion sounds terrible, but of course Israel has forcibly expelled her own people from settlements as well. By granting anything West of the Jordan exclusively to Palestinians, you would be talking about a forced expulsion of Jews.
I don't believe anyone calling for independent state of Palestine is advocating it be "exclusively for Palestinians". You could have Jewish citizens of Palestine just like you have Palestinian citizens of Israel.

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
The fact of the matter is that while Israel has included in its laws protections for Arabs, allows them seats in their government assembly, and grants Arabs more freedoms including women's suffrage, than virtually anywhere else in the Middle East; there is nothing that will convince them they are not second-class citizens.
There are well-documented discriminatory policies against Arab citizens of Israel with regard to ...

- Issuance of building permits
- Omission of Arab towns from government economic and social programs
- Investing 3 times as much money into the education of Jewish children versus Arab children
- Israel Land Administration refusal to lease land to non-Jewish foreign national .. including Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem
- The Absentees Property Law which stipulates that Palestinians who fled or were expelled from their homes during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war ... including those who remained in the country and because Arab citizens of Israel ... lost all rights to their property. Yet ....
- The Law and Administration Arrangements Law allows Jews who lost their property in East Jerusalem or the West Bank during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war to recover their property.
- Etc.

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Occupation occurs in response to approximately 7,000 rocket-launches into Israel annually. I would not expect the Palestinians to work any more quietly toward peace than they have been, hence the problem.
The Occupation has been ongoing since 1967. Rocket launches into Israel is a fairly recent phenomenon. In any event, this 7000 figure is often bandied about but it reflects a high point in hostilities during the height of the last Israeli war in Gaza. This simply isn't the case now, quite frankly, because Hamas has by and large respected a cold truce with Israel since it took over Gaza. Most attacks that have occurred have been carried out by other militant factions.

According to the Israel Security Agency's annual report, Palestinians carried out 150 rocket launches and 215 mortar launches at Israel during the year. This represented a decrease in both types of attacks compared to 2009, in which there were 569 rocket launches and 289 mortar launches.
List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2010 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
This is a non-starter for the Palestinians. The Allon Plan was a non-starter and IMO was still too gratuitous for secure borders. (for either entity if empathetic toward the Palestinian plight)
I'm not so sure about this my friend. It appears that the Palestinian Authority is growing quite exasperated with Israeli intransigence on the issue of settlement expansion. The more it continues the less land there will be for a viable "two state solution". It seems that the tack now is to continue to build the institutions for self-governance, and then take their case directly to the UN to declare an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem because the decades long "peace process" is going absolutely nowhere fast. The European powers are also becoming rather exasperated with Israeli intransigence on the issue and it's looking as if they very well might support it. It could very well boil down to the only thing that could block such a move would be a UN Security Council veto by the US government. Which would have the effect of isolating the US and Israel against ... umm let's see ... the rest of the entire planet. Sure it can be done ... but at what cost to US diplomatic standing in the world? Perhaps the UN votes regarding the Occupation and the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians isn't the result of "anti-semitism" among its members, but rather the result of the State of Israel being in the wrong on some pretty major issues with respect to human rights? I'm just saying ...

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
If we are not bound by the laws of reality; the restraining order should have the Palestinians remain on the East side of the Jordan, Israel on the West because they simply cannot peacefully coexist. Any plan that attempts to force them both into the same tiny region only perpetuates the powder-keg of hostility between them.
There is that. But to do that you would have had to expel the entire indigenous population across the river. Much of that occurred in Israel proper during 1948 ... estimates are that 80% of the Arab population fled or were expelled. But not so much in the West Bank and Gaza. And beyond that, the British in their infinite wisdom decided to carve the territory east of the Jordan river out of the original British Mandate of Palestine several years prior to the 1948 UN Partition and give it to King Abdullah to rule as the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. Which created its own conflicts with that land having a majority Palestinian population being ruled by a minority of Jordanians.

Unfortunately, there is that "laws of reality" thing to contend with. So at this point, I'd say the only way forward to a genuine peace is to establish a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza .... or if Israel insists on gobbling up more of that land then just annex it all and truly implement the following:

Israel's Declaration of Independence called for the establishment of a Jewish state with equality of social and political rights, irrespective of religion, race, or sex.

Continuing to occupy the West Bank and blockade Gaza will surely result in further conflict. Perhaps the time has come to actually try a different approach.

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May 26, 2011, 03:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
The strong reaction against different kind of Jews by you and BigMac. its like if your a Hebrew Jew, the European ones are nothing neither are the black ones and so one. That appears racist against your own people.
Ah, say what now? Are you high? What in the world are you prattling on about? You're the one who started throwing around highly offensive racist propaganda against European Jews - openly declaring we aren't real Hebrews and brining up the Khazar propaganda - and now you're accusing me of being racist?

I dare you, I double dare you, to pick out any portion of anything I've posted to this thread to try to substantiate whatever absurd claim you're making against me. You won't be able to because what you're claiming about me simply doesn't exist. The only thing Jew v. Jew that I can think of engaging in was when I briefly debated nonhuman in friendly terms (because we are friends) about was whether or not it made sense to maintain the trappings of Judaism without belief in the G-d of Judaism, but that has nothing to do with issues of Jewish ethnicity or race, let alone bigotry toward Jews of one ethnicity against another. Either you're high or you're trying to cover up your own racism that you were called out on by blindly accusing others of it. Which of those explanations is most close to the bizarre things going on in your head, Athens?

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May 26, 2011, 03:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Option one, investigate the rocket attack, identify the persons involved, then arrest them and in court convict them.

Option two, bomb buildings, blow up shit and kill people to inspire fear hoping enough fear might stop the rocket attacks.
Investigating the attack would involve physically going into the area and determining who launched the rocket. When Israeli soldiers go into Gaza they get killed. They are entitled to defend themselves and so again we have loss of life on both sides. Not helping matters is that Hamas launches rockets from schools and hides behind women and children and move locations frequently. Israel makes as many arrests as it can and tries everyone of them. Even the US doesn't do this.

Claiming that Israel needs to do more to call itself morally superior demands that you come up with a better answer than arrest the people responsible for attacks which they already do when possible.

Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Gaza isn't a closed off Border, its a open prison. Otherwise aid groups wouldn't be shoot at when trying to reach Gaza by water. All 4 sides are closed off to a military blockage by Israel, its a prison not a closed off border. It is very much like the Eastern European Ghettos before in 1943 they got transformed into concentration camps. Walls, Fences, underground tunnels people sneaking in and out, Gaza totally Dependant on Israel. Its offensive but it is still very similar.
Those "aid" groups have been proven to be transporting weapons time and time again. Israel's blockade is entirely legal. I'm sorry, but there is no similarity whatsoever. No amount of good behavior on the part of the Jews would have convinced the Nazis to open up the ghettos, while it is clear that in times when the residents of Gaza ease off on their terrorist activities they are given additional freedoms. The reality is that it doesn't matter. Israel doesn't owe the Gazans any more than any other country is obligated to accept me.

Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Ok there is a misconception here, i didn't know those where ethnic slurs. I thought those represented different kinds of Jewish people. Like how you have many tribes in african countries. I didn't know any of that was racist in any way.
Yea, AshkeNAZI's are what we call the self-hating Jews
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May 26, 2011, 03:33 PM
 
Im not racist you ****ing asshole
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May 26, 2011, 03:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
Investigating the attack would involve physically going into the area and determining who launched the rocket. When Israeli soldiers go into Gaza they get killed. They are entitled to defend themselves and so again we have loss of life on both sides. Not helping matters is that Hamas launches rockets from schools and hides behind women and children and move locations frequently. Israel makes as many arrests as it can and tries everyone of them. Even the US doesn't do this.

Claiming that Israel needs to do more to call itself morally superior demands that you come up with a better answer than arrest the people responsible for attacks which they already do when possible.
IT's not that they have to do more, its they need to stop doing some of the things they do, like mass arrests. How do you justify the settlements as not proactive.

Those "aid" groups have been proven to be transporting weapons time and time again. Israel's blockade is entirely legal. I'm sorry, but there is no similarity whatsoever. No amount of good behavior on the part of the Jews would have convinced the Nazis to open up the ghettos, while it is clear that in times when the residents of Gaza ease off on their terrorist activities they are given additional freedoms. The reality is that it doesn't matter. Israel doesn't owe the Gazans any more than any other country is obligated to accept me.
I would argue the blockage being legal, at best its legal in the eyes of Israel and in question by many others outside of Israel. And in the early days of the Ghettos Jews did come and go from the Ghettos for work. It was not until later stages it was closed off totally and turned into concentration camps. But I like this the most, how you explain that when Gazans reduce terrorist activities they get additional freedoms. Perhaps providing additional freedoms will result in less terrorist activities. You have some people who launch rockets but you make every single person suffer. This only breeds resentment causing more to want to launch rockets and fight back the only way they can.

Yea, AshkeNAZI's are what we call the self-hating Jews
A self hating Jew? You mean some one that actually is Jewish but hates other Jews or some one who was born Jewish but decided to be Muslim or Atheist?
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May 26, 2011, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
Off topic: So why do people in the US demand to be called "African American" if their connection to Africa is a few hundred years old and is as loose as yours?
Because it's descriptive and it works for identifying a specific sub-population of the US. It's simply a matter of Heritage-Nationality. So an African-American is one who has an African heritage and an American nationality. It's no different than when people say Jewish-American or Irish-American or Italian-American.

Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
How many centuries is the cut-off exactly, and how far back do we look? European Jews may not have lived en mass in Israel for a few hundred years (although some have been there continually since the first Jews) so you looked back to the Arabs who have been there for centuries. It is undisputed that Judaism is older than Islam and the first Jews lived in Israel therefore if we go back a few extra centuries the Jews were in fact there first.
Well if one is to consider the timing of the Jewish Diaspora .....

The diaspora is commonly accepted to have begun with the 8th–6th century BC conquests of the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah, destruction of the First Temple (c.586 BC), and expulsion of the population, and is also associated with the destruction of the Second Temple and aftermath of the Bar Kokhba revolt during the Roman occupation of Judea in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD.

A number of Jewish communities were then established in the Middle East like in Persia when Cyrus the Great invited them as a result of tolerant policies and remained notable centers of Torah life and Judaism for centuries to come as in Iran. The defeat of the Great Jewish Revolt in the year 70 AD and of Bar Kokhba's revolt against the Roman Empire in 135 AD notably contributed to the diaspora as many Jews were scattered after losing control over Judea or were sold into slavery throughout the empire.
... then one can argue that European Jews may not have "lived en mass in Israel" for a lot longer than a few hundred years. Indeed there has always been some remnants of the Jewish population present in the region. And Judaism is in fact older than Islam. But let's not forget that the Hebrews/Jews were not the original inhabitants either. That distinction would belong to the Canaanites and the Egyptians. Furthermore, of the 5000 year recorded history of Palestine the ancient Jews controlled it for approximately 500+ years in total. Far less than the ancient Canaanites, Egyptians, Romans, or the Muslim empires. So therein lies the fundamental problem with using religious documents that your community authors as a real estate deed when other people are living there.

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May 26, 2011, 03:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I don't believe anyone calling for independent state of Palestine is advocating it be "exclusively for Palestinians". You could have Jewish citizens of Palestine just like you have Palestinian citizens of Israel.
Do you honestly believe that this would work? Take a step back and acknowledge that Jews have been expelled from just about every Arab state that has ever existed and tell me again that you think there will be Jewish citizens in Palestine living as equals. Did Jews ever have access to the holy sites when they were under Jordanian control? No, they were trashed and desecrated. Holy sites, whether Jewish or Christian, will meet the same fate if the Palestinians are put in charge of them.

I'm sorry to say it, but when Big Mac calls people delusional it is for saying statements like this one.
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May 26, 2011, 03:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
I didn't say any one kind of Jew was inferior then another kind. This is what has me totally awwed, I found something that looked like it explained a bunch of different kind of Jews of different ethnic groups to support there is no one race for jews and then all this blows up around me.
Did you actually read it? In what way is 'Most Jews of today are whites pretending to be Hebrews, not all but most.' where 'most Jews' is obviously specifically referring to Ashkenazi Jews not implying that Ashkenazim (one kind of Jew) is inferior to Mizrahim and/or Sephardim (other kinds of Jews)? It is a direct accusation towards Ashkenazim (such as myself) of, essentially, being 'posers' specifically for the purpose of defrauding the Semitic peoples of Eretz Yisroel of their land. I honestly cannot see how this could be interpreted in any way that isn't insulting to myself, to Big Mac, to the 'most Jews' it refers to, hell, to ALL Jews.

Also, your explanation of why you choose it would seem to reveal that you're completely failing to do actual research. You don't look for citations that confirm your beliefs, you look at the facts and adjust your beliefs to fit them. The specific theory forwarded in that quote is one that has been discredited, thoroughly. To make use of it to support your views belays either an ignorance of the subject matter or a malicious intent to misrepresent falsehoods as credible facts.

Does that help explain why we found it upsetting?

Ok there is a misconception here, i didn't know those where ethnic slurs. I thought those represented different kinds of Jewish people. Like how you have many tribes in african countries. I didn't know any of that was racist in any way.
Slight miscommunication here. Nothing wrong whatsoever with using the terms Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Sephardi, &c. There is, however, a problem with blatantly and maliciously misusing them: e.g. 'AshkeNAZI'. Yes, this was in material you were quoting, but it's also material that you chose to represent and support your views.

The entire passage that you quoted was an attack on a specific ethnicity (Ashkenazi Jews), a specific ethnicity that several of the people involved in this discussion belong to. That is what made it an ethnic slur.

If nothing else, I have a hard time reconciling your claim that you 'didn't know any of that was racist in any way' with the fact that it contains a play on words comparing a sub-group of Jews with Nazis. I mean really, did you even read what you were copying and pasting?
     
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May 26, 2011, 04:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
The strong reaction against different kind of Jews by you and BigMac. its like if your a Hebrew Jew, the European ones are nothing neither are the black ones and so one. That appears racist against your own people.
We're not reacting against other kinds of Jews, we're reacting against the explicit accusation that we are not actually Jews ourselves and the implicit accusation contained therein that the presence of Ashkenazim in Israel should be viewed as an affront against the 'real' Jews. We're reacting against what is essentially an attack on the unity of all Jews, an attempt to fracture us into groups and deny the legitimacy of some of us.

In fact it's the exact opposite of what you seem to think: we're reacting against an attempt to separate us from our fellow Jews.
     
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May 26, 2011, 04:03 PM
 
OMG, is he now claiming he thought that the term Ashkenazi Jew meant "Nazi Jew"? If that's what he's trying to make us believe he must be playing tricks now. Right?

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May 26, 2011, 04:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
OMG, is he now claiming he thought that the term Ashkenazi Jew meant "Nazi Jew"?
I'm working under the (generous) assumption that he barely read the passage and just copied it and pasted it without comprehending it...
     
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May 26, 2011, 04:06 PM
 
So, Jewish and Israeli are races now?

And I'm the one who is misguided?
     
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May 26, 2011, 04:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
A self hating Jew? You mean some one that actually is Jewish but hates other Jews or some one who was born Jewish but decided to be Muslim or Atheist?
I was being sarcastic. I didn't mean anything except to point out that your claimed ignorance with regard to that word doesn't hold water since it is so obviously offensive.

Also, Israel's military blockade in the Mediterranean Sea is legal by international standards not just Israel's. Legal or not, it still is a sidestep of the fact that they were pretending to transport aid when they were transporting weapons!

Originally Posted by OAW View Post
So therein lies the fundamental problem with using religious documents that your community authors as a real estate deed when other people are living there.
I haven't referred to any religious document anywhere in this thread that I can recall. I had actually written more in my post but deleted it. I was going to rhetorically ask whether it matters who was first, who had the most people living there, who lived there for longer, etc.
( Last edited by SSharon; May 26, 2011 at 10:48 PM. Reason: Mistakenly attributed first quote to OAW instead of Athens.)
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May 26, 2011, 04:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
So, Jewish and Israeli are races now? And I'm the one who is misguided?
Yes, you are misguided, generally speaking. Anyone who claimed that Jewish or Israeli are racial designations was wrong, or perhaps you misread what they wrote. Jewish is a religious-national designation, a designation that can be made with further specificity by noting the large ethnic groups (primarily Ashkenazi and Sephardic for the sake of simplicity) and other more minor ones, but it is also a designation applied to converts to Judaism who may come from other groups of humanity. Converts are accepted as full, equal members of the Jewish nation as if they were natively born. Israeli (n.) refers to a member of the nation-state/country Israel, the great majority of whom are Jewish.
( Last edited by Big Mac; May 26, 2011 at 04:45 PM. )

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May 26, 2011, 04:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Yes, you are misguided, generally speaking. Anyone who claimed that Jewish or Israeli are racial designations was wrong, or perhaps you misread what they wrote. Jewish is a religious-national designation, a designation that can be made with further specificity by noting the large ethnic groups (primarily Ashkenazi and Sephardic for the sake of simplicity) and other more minor ones, but it is also a designation applied to converts to Judaism who may come from other groups of humanity. Converts are accepted as full, equal members of the Jewish nation as if they were natively born. Israeli (n.) refers to a member of the nation-state/country Israel, the great majority of whom are Jewish.
I know what Jewish is, I was responding to Athens. But thanks for taking the opportunity to tell me again how misguided I am.
     
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May 26, 2011, 04:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
I'm working under the (generous) assumption that he barely read the passage and just copied it and pasted it without comprehending it...
Thank you, because thats what it was.
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May 26, 2011, 05:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
You should see the glee on my face in writing this reply.

Most who bring up that Ashkenazim were European are doing so because they're making a racist claim about skin color, so please forgive my presumption on that point.
Not a problem.

Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
But if the Ashkenazim were merely European they wouldn't have been relegated to ghettos by European law until the liberalization of law by Napoleon. If they were merely European they wouldn't have been prohibited from most trades except for the ones Christians viewed as undignified like money lending. If they were merely European they wouldn't have experienced widespread persecution and various massacres. If they were merely European one of the great European powers wouldn't have exterminated them en masse .....
I appreciate the sentiment being expressed here. Believe me, as a member of a community that has long-suffered for simply being different than the dominant culture I understand. But what I'm trying to get across to you is that for a great many non-Jews, the Ashkenazi are simply viewed as "white people with a different religion". Were it not for some distinctive mode of dress or a Jewish sounding name or seeing you walking the streets on a Saturday in 90 degree weather .... I imagine that I and most other people would find you indistinguishable from any other white guy we may come across. So this thing you describe is a European issue. As I said earlier, European Christians couldn't seem to get it together and accept European Jews living amongst them. And it's sad really. Truly sad. From the centuries of oppression and discrimination to the unspeakable horrors of the Holocaust. But this injustice won't be solved by oppressing Palestinians who had nothing to do with this foolishness in the name of Israeli "security".

Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
You're very much misinformed. The vast majority of the Arab population migrated to the area at the same time Jews were returning the later 19th and early 20th centuries. Arab tribes prior to that point were largely nomadic and not permanently settled there. So when you argue to the contrary you're either ignorant of the true historical record or are willfully engaged in perpetuating myths and propaganda about historical Arab settlement. It was nowhere near as robust or developed as you claim. If it had been the case, there would have been a movement to declare an Arab state there when the Ottoman Empire ended officially in 1923, but that didn't happen. If it had been the case, the Balfour Declaration wouldn't have been seen as credible and wouldn't have been adopted as the policy of the Class-A powers of the League Nations at San Remo. And as I pointed out before, if it had been the case, a relatively low population of poorly equipped, isloated Jews wouldn't have been able to overwhelm and defeat not only the Arab population but also the six "conquering Arab armies" who sought to "drive the Jews to the sea."
Really? So the Rashidun Caliphate conquering Palestine in 638 AD was just a figment in the historical imagination? I mean, an empire like this ....



... is established and maintained by a bunch of camel herders?

Beyond that, even if a people are a nomadic culture ... that doesn't mean they don't live on the land. It means they live on a wide area of land. There are nomadic tribes in the deserts of Oman. Would you say they don't live on that land and it can be taken from them because they move around a lot in order to survive? Did Native Americans tribes not live on the land even though many were nomadic hunters with no concept of private ownership of land? Or does the right to live on the land only apply when "permanent settlements" are established according to a Western cultural outlook?

Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Again,. they were exiles returning to their homeland, which they prayed for and sought after ever since they were exiled. It's not the Arab homeland. It's not the Muslim homeland - that's 800 miles away in Saudi Arabia. It's the Jewish homeland.
I could quibble with you regarding this "Jewish homeland" thing but I'll skip all that. That'll just delve into religion and it's, quite frankly, next to impossible to have a logical conversation about this topic once you bring all that into it. But I will say this. There is no such thing as a "Muslim" homeland and its definitely not Saudi Arabia. Mecca and Medina are certainly the two holiest cities to Muslims ... followed by Jerusalem which is third. But the majority of Muslims in the world aren't even Arab. So why would Saudi Arabia be their "homeland"? Indeed Saudi Arabia is the "homeland" or origins of the Arab people. But Arabs have spread out quite a bit since the sixth century. To say that a Palestinian Arab's "homeland" is Saudi Arabia simply because that's where Arabs originate is like saying a Nigerian's "homeland" is Kenya simply because that's where Africans originated.

Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
To the contrary. If you and your brethren decided that living in the United States was no longer tolerable and there was an undeveloped region of Africa with no sovereign statehood that could serve as a viable homeland to you, why wouldn't you contemplate returning home? And actually, that in fact did happen. I'm sure you've heard of the African country of Liberia. So the exact scenario that you paint as being preposterous actually happened in history to people you have common genetic and historical ties to. Did you not just prove my point, at least in part? Who needs the smilie now?
Not at all. Liberia is a classic case of what I'm talking about. The fundamental conflict that arises when a group of foreigners settles in an area and then begins to rule over the indigenous population:

In 1822, the American Colonization Society (A.C.S.), working to "repatriate" black Americans to greater freedom in Africa, established Liberia[12] as a place to send people who were formerly enslaved.[5][13] This movement of black people by the A.C.S. had broad support nationwide among white people in the United States, including politicians such as Henry Clay and James Monroe. They believed this was preferable to emancipation of slaves in the United States. Clay said, because of "unconquerable prejudice resulting from their color, they never could amalgamate with the free whites of this country. It was desirable, therefore, as it respected them, and the residue of the population of the country, to drain them off."[14] The institution of slavery in the U.S. had grown, reaching almost four million slaves by the mid 19th century.[15] Some free African Americans chose to emigrate to Liberia.[16] The immigrants became known as Americo-Liberians, and about 5% of present-day Liberians trace their ancestry to them. On July 26, 1847, Americo-Liberian settlers declared the independence of the Republic of Liberia.[17][18]

The settlers regarded Africa as a "promised land". However, they did not choose to integrate into African society. They still referred to themselves as Americans, and were recognized as such by local Africans and by British colonial authorities in neighboring Sierra Leone. The symbols of their nation — its flag, motto, and seal, and the form of government that they chose—all reflected their American background and diaspora experience. Ashmun Institute, founded in Pennsylvania in 1854 for the education of black Americans, played an important role in supplying Americo-Liberians with leadership for the new nation. The first graduating class of Ashmun Institute (later renamed Lincoln University in honor of the slain president), consisting of James R. Amos, his brother Thomas H. Amos, and Armistead Miller, sailed for Liberia shortly after graduation on the brig Mary C. Stevens in April 1859.
The newly arrived settlers formed a new ethnic group called the Americo-Liberians. However, this introduction of a new ethnic mix resulted in ethnic tensions with the sixteen other main ethnicities already residing in Liberia.
The parallels are striking. Europeans tried to solve their "Jewish Problem" by shipping the Jews off to Palestine and establishing a state for them there. Just as European Americans tried to solve their "Black Problem" by shipping off former black slaves to Liberia and establishing a state for them there. And in neither case did the indigenous population have a say in any of it. And none of this is justified merely because an area doesn't have "sovereign statehood" in a Western sense of the term. Not all peoples designate their land and territory by arbitrary lines on a map as Europeans are wont to do.

Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Of course, the point can never be made often enough - one key difference in circumstance between Liberia and Israel is that Africans have an entire continent full of countries. By the same token, there are 50+ Muslim majority countries, including 22 Arab countries that control 99% of the land mass of the middle east. The Jewish people in all the world only have one small Jewish country, and Jews are happy with that alone. And yet we're still hated and some Muslim terrorist groups aspire to exterminate all Jews in all the world, not only Jews in Israel. How preposterous is that? How evil is that? And how evil do you become when you side with them?
All of this is neither here nor there. By this logic it would make more sense for the Ashkenazi to return to Europe where they would have a "continent full of countries" with their European brethren. Dysfunctional family dynamics aside. But beyond that, I certainly haven't sided with any Muslim terrorist groups that aspire to exterminate Jews. I'm just stating the obvious. The continued occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem along with the continued blockade of Gaza will never result in Israel being able to live in peace. After a while, the people with the strongest military and economy in the middle east ... with tanks and F-16s that afford it a 5-1 kill ratio advantage over an indigenous population throwing rocks and launching crappy, unguided rockets ... simply lose credibility when they continue to play the victim under such circumstances.

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( Last edited by OAW; May 26, 2011 at 05:31 PM. )
     
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May 26, 2011, 05:07 PM
 
*Braces for onslaught*

I thought Hebrew was only a language. I looked it up on Wikipedia and this part confuses me.

By the Roman period, "Hebrews" could be used to designate the Jews, who use the Hebrew language.[7] The Epistle to the Hebrews was probably written for Jewish Christians.[8]
In some modern languages, including Greek, Italian, Romanian, and many Slavic languages, the name Hebrews survives as the standard ethnonym for Jews, but in many other languages in which there exist both terms, it is considered derogatory to call modern Jews "Hebrews." Among certain left-wing or liberal circles of Judaic cultural lineage, the word "Hebrew" is used as an alternatively secular description of the Jewish people (e.g., Bernard Avishai's The Hebrew Republic or left-wing wishes for a "Hebrew-Arab" joint cultural republican state).
Its considered derogatory to call modern Jews Hebrews, so why is that and is Hebrew a Language or a slang term?
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May 26, 2011, 05:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
Do you honestly believe that this would work? Take a step back and acknowledge that Jews have been expelled from just about every Arab state that has ever existed and tell me again that you think there will be Jewish citizens in Palestine living as equals. Did Jews ever have access to the holy sites when they were under Jordanian control? No, they were trashed and desecrated. Holy sites, whether Jewish or Christian, will meet the same fate if the Palestinians are put in charge of them.

I'm sorry to say it, but when Big Mac calls people delusional it is for saying statements like this one.
It's my understanding that Jews were expelled from Arab states after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. People were taking sides and lots of stupidity ensued. As for whether or not it's workable, that remains to be seen. I imagine if any Jewish settlers in the West Bank were uncomfortable remaining they could easily migrate to Israel under the Law of Return. And given the tremendous scrutiny that an independent Palestinian state would be under, it would be most unwise to engage in rampant oppression of the Jewish minority. And I'd also imagine that the 5% of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza along with the 10% of Palestinians in Israel who are Christians would take serious issue with Christian Holy Sites being desecrated. Indeed there will be problems. But there are problems now. The status quo is simply unsustainable in the long-run.

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May 26, 2011, 05:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
I know what Jewish is, I was responding to Athens. But thanks for taking the opportunity to tell me again how misguided I am.
I'm sorry about that, then. I was being unfair to you with that reply because you've annoyed me in recent times, and I wanted to rub it in a bit (more).

I've stated my case with clarity. I think I'll take leave from this thread now. Oh, well, one more response to Athens since he calmed down and seems to genuinely be interested in learning things:

Originally Posted by Athens View Post
I thought Hebrew was only a language. I looked it up on Wikipedia and this part confuses me.
Hebrew refers in modern usage primarily to the language. It can also, however, be used as a synonym for Jewish people, although it's much less common. Abraham is sometimes referred to Abraham HaIvri (Abraham the Hebrew). There's nothing derogatory in my mind about calling a Jew a Hebrew in modern times, but it's just not a common thing to do. Now calling Jews from Europe fake Hebrews as you appeared to do certainly is derogatory.

Is Hebrew a Language or a slang term?
Hebrew is the English name of the language. The term itself is an anglicized form of the Hebrew word. The word comes from the name Eber, עֵבֶר, an ancestor of Abraham. Hebrew in Hebrew is pronounced Ivrit and spelled עִבְרִית
( Last edited by Big Mac; May 26, 2011 at 06:04 PM. )

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May 26, 2011, 05:36 PM
 
@SSharon ....

Your 3:06 PM post attributes a quote to me that I didn't make. I haven't even participated in that particular tangent of the discussion. I trust this was merely a copy/paste error.

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May 26, 2011, 05:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
I'm sorry about that, then. I was being unfair to you with that reply because you've annoyed me in recent times, and I wanted to rub it in a bit (more).

I've stated my case with clarity. I think I'll take leave from this thread now.
Now if you could only say the same thing to me we could go back to being friendly and civil to each other again
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May 26, 2011, 07:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I don't believe anyone calling for independent state of Palestine is advocating it be "exclusively for Palestinians". You could have Jewish citizens of Palestine just like you have Palestinian citizens of Israel.
There is simply too much history of this problem to ignore the fact that Jews would not be welcomed in a formal Palestinian State. You could have Jewish citizens of Palestine on paper as an academic endeavor, but ideals like these that do not account for reality are non-starters IMO. The fact is you won't have Jewish citizens of Palestine and I think you know this. Israelis have been relocated by Israelis to facilitate Palestinian settlement before and it would have to happen again.

There are well-documented discriminatory policies against Arab citizens of Israel with regard to ...
- Issuance of building permits
- Omission of Arab towns from government economic and social programs
- Investing 3 times as much money into the education of Jewish children versus Arab children
- Israel Land Administration refusal to lease land to non-Jewish foreign national .. including Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem
- The Absentees Property Law which stipulates that Palestinians who fled or were expelled from their homes during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war ... including those who remained in the country and because Arab citizens of Israel ... lost all rights to their property. Yet ....
- The Law and Administration Arrangements Law allows Jews who lost their property in East Jerusalem or the West Bank during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war to recover their property.
- Etc.
From your link:
The Israeli government and many groups within Israel have undertaken efforts to combat discrimination, and have denied some instances of racism. Israel has broad anti-discrimination laws, which prohibit discrimination by both government and nongovernment entities on the basis of race, religion, and political beliefs, and prohibits incitement to racism.
  • Can you cite any such similar proclamation from a Palestinian authority or document?
  • Using your argument I could say that because the official policy of the Israeli government is anti-discrimination; the examples you cite above must have been carried out by other militant factions.
  • I happen to concur with Big Mac in that I believe Israel has the edge over Palestinians in morality and the examples of oppression you cite above pale in comparison to the oppression of Jews throughout the remainder of the Middle East. For that matter, the rights of Arabs outside of Israel pale in comparison to those they enjoy inside Israel.
  • At the end of the day, all these examples do is illustrate that the two obviously cannot peacefully coexist. Either there will be racism, perceived racism, or rockets. None of these are the ingredients for peace.

The Occupation has been ongoing since 1967. Rocket launches into Israel is a fairly recent phenomenon. In any event, this 7000 figure is often bandied about but it reflects a high point in hostilities during the height of the last Israeli war in Gaza. This simply isn't the case now, quite frankly, because Hamas has by and large respected a cold truce with Israel since it took over Gaza. Most attacks that have occurred have been carried out by other militant factions.
List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2010 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I'm glad the rocket attacks are slowing.

I wonder how many rocket attacks Americans might find acceptable from say... a Native American Reservation in Nevada fired into California. I'm thinking somewhere around <1. If it came from a compound of zealots, we'd simply fire-bomb it.

I'm not so sure about this my friend. It appears that the Palestinian Authority is growing quite exasperated with Israeli intransigence on the issue of settlement expansion. The more it continues the less land there will be for a viable "two state solution". It seems that the tack now is to continue to build the institutions for self-governance, and then take their case directly to the UN to declare an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem because the decades long "peace process" is going absolutely nowhere fast. The European powers are also becoming rather exasperated with Israeli intransigence on the issue and it's looking as if they very well might support it. It could very well boil down to the only thing that could block such a move would be a UN Security Council veto by the US government. Which would have the effect of isolating the US and Israel against ... umm let's see ... the rest of the entire planet. Sure it can be done ... but at what cost to US diplomatic standing in the world? Perhaps the UN votes regarding the Occupation and the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians isn't the result of "anti-semitism" among its members, but rather the result of the State of Israel being in the wrong on some pretty major issues with respect to human rights? I'm just saying ...
I'm sorry I cannot address the issue of Israeli intransigence in a unidirectional argument that has no regard for the thoughts, attitudes, and actions of Palestinians including the fact that nearly half (according to your link) of Arab-Israelis deny the holocaust. Proof that if you have someone by the age of 12, you have them for life. The problem is more deeply-seeded than just land.

There is that. But to do that you would have had to expel the entire indigenous population across the river. Much of that occurred in Israel proper during 1948 ... estimates are that 80% of the Arab population fled or were expelled. But not so much in the West Bank and Gaza. And beyond that, the British in their infinite wisdom decided to carve the territory east of the Jordan river out of the original British Mandate of Palestine several years prior to the 1948 UN Partition and give it to King Abdullah to rule as the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. Which created its own conflicts with that land having a majority Palestinian population being ruled by a minority of Jordanians.

Unfortunately, there is that "laws of reality" thing to contend with. So at this point, I'd say the only way forward to a genuine peace is to establish a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza .... or if Israel insists on gobbling up more of that land then just annex it all and truly implement the following:

Israel's Declaration of Independence called for the establishment of a Jewish state with equality of social and political rights, irrespective of religion, race, or sex.

Continuing to occupy the West Bank and blockade Gaza will surely result in further conflict. Perhaps the time has come to actually try a different approach.

OAW
Proposing a solution the very people you're trying to protect find unacceptable is a non-starter. Continuing to deny the legitimacy of a Jewish Nation-State and addressing it with hateful rhetoric, croneyism with hostility outside Israel, and rocket-fire will likewise result in further conflict. Israel has the same right at Statehood as any other State known to mankind. The only reason this problem continues to fester in the region is Israeli concern for their image abroad and a sect of people that refuse to relent; the Hatfields and McCoys. It is clear that a restraining order is necessary regardless of who you feel is in the right or wrong.
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May 26, 2011, 08:44 PM
 
ebuddy,

I think we can both agree that chances are our grand kids could very well have this same debate one day my friend. And while I tend to lean more to the Palestinian perspective from a justice point of view, I certainly don't support all the actions that certain members of that community commit. Launching those silly rockets into Israel is beyond retarded for a whole host of reasons. And blowing up buses full of civilians is despicable to say the least. At the same time dropping a 5000 lb bomb from an F-16 in the middle of the night on a crowded apartment building to get one militant is just as despicable IMO. It's most unfortunate that these two peoples who have a lot more in common than they would publicly care to admit both seem unwilling to simply live together in peace. So the BS is likely to persist on both sides for generations.

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May 26, 2011, 10:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
@SSharon ....

Your 3:06 PM post attributes a quote to me that I didn't make. I haven't even participated in that particular tangent of the discussion. I trust this was merely a copy/paste error.

OAW
Yes, my sincerest apologies, I'm not sure what happened. The first quote should have been attributed to Athens and only the second one was yours. I must have copy/pasted incorrectly as I was editing my post.

Originally Posted by OAW View Post
At the same time dropping a 5000 lb bomb from an F-16 in the middle of the night on a crowded apartment building to get one militant is just as despicable IMO.
I am willing to bet Israel has never dropped a 5000lb bomb on any target that was not 100% military in nature. Many people have the perception that Israel uses is vastly superior military to tease and torture the Palestinians, but that isn't the case. How and why the media has portrayed the Palestinians as defenseless people with only rocks is amazing given how many dozens of tons of weapons have been seized.

On rare occasion helicopter gunships have been used, but I can't think of any examples where an F16 (or any other jet) dropped a 5000lb bomb on any target never mind a heavily populated one. Israel's tactics have involved precision strikes, going from door to door, using UAVs, and only using heavier weapons to destroy structures once they have informed the inhabitants to leave. This is akin to Osama telling us to evacuate the WTC before destroying them. If Israel really unleashed its military might we wouldn't be having this conversation at all, Gaza would be a giant pit 100 feet deep. For a country that doesn't even have a death penalty for tried and convicted killers (with extremely limited exceptions) the notion that Israel intentionally kills civilians just doesn't compute.
( Last edited by SSharon; May 26, 2011 at 10:59 PM. )
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May 27, 2011, 02:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
Yes, my sincerest apologies, I'm not sure what happened. The first quote should have been attributed to Athens and only the second one was yours. I must have copy/pasted incorrectly as I was editing my post.
No problem. I figured as much.

Originally Posted by SSharon
I am willing to bet Israel has never dropped a 5000lb bomb on any target that was not 100% military in nature. Many people have the perception that Israel uses is vastly superior military to tease and torture the Palestinians, but that isn't the case. How and why the media has portrayed the Palestinians as defenseless people with only rocks is amazing given how many dozens of tons of weapons have been seized.

On rare occasion helicopter gunships have been used, but I can't think of any examples where an F16 (or any other jet) dropped a 5000lb bomb on any target never mind a heavily populated one. Israel's tactics have involved precision strikes, going from door to door, using UAVs, and only using heavier weapons to destroy structures once they have informed the inhabitants to leave. This is akin to Osama telling us to evacuate the WTC before destroying them. If Israel really unleashed its military might we wouldn't be having this conversation at all, Gaza would be a giant pit 100 feet deep. For a country that doesn't even have a death penalty for tried and convicted killers (with extremely limited exceptions) the notion that Israel intentionally kills civilians just doesn't compute.
It appears I misspoke when I said a 5000 lb bomb from an F-16. Apparently it was a 1000 lb bomb.

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Peres 'regrets Gaza bombing mistake'

And just in case one were to think this to be an isolated incident we have the following from the 2006 war in Lebanon …

Qana airstrike

So let's say you are correct about how Israel conducts its military operations. At the end of the day the kill ratios between Israelis and Arabs (Palestinian or otherwise) is not even remotely comparable. I've said it before and I'll say it again ..,

The Israeli military kills way more Arabs by "accident" than Arab terrorists kill on purpose. It's not even close.

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May 27, 2011, 09:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
And just in case one were to think this to be an isolated incident we have the following from the 2006 war in Lebanon …

Qana airstrike
Notice that the example is still one from a "war" of sorts and not a daily occurrence in the streets of Gaza or the West Bank as the media might have you believe. Once again, if you look closely, you will notice that Israel told the residents of Southern Lebanon to get out of the way. I'm not sure why everyone always ignores Israel when they give these warnings . . .

Originally Posted by OAW View Post
The Israeli military kills way more Arabs by "accident" than Arab terrorists kill on purpose. It's not even close.
That's an interesting metric, but it doesn't prove anything. Arab civilians are killed by accident because they are used as human shields. Additional Israelis aren't killed because of the roadblocks, intelligence, and other security measures that prevent even more terrorist actions. If every Jew in the world walked into Gaza waiving a white flag, every Jew in the world would be killed. These sites looks very bias (Iraq Body Count and #1. Over One Million Iraqi Deaths Caused by US Occupation | Project Censored) but even if the numbers are off by an order of magnitude the US has probably accidentally killed more civilians in Iraq/Afghanistan than Osama killed on 9/11.

There is also a huge moral difference between purposely killing civilians and accidentally killing civilians after warning them to leave, believing they have left, and discovering they are being used as shields.

The value of each human life is important and the Palestinians also have a terrible habit of overestimating their deaths for the purpose of extra media attention and then later updating them once they are caught lying. Initial estimates were 37 dead children, but in the end it was only (forgive my poor word choice) 16. How did they misplace 21 children in the middle of the night? 28 civilians total were killed, but somehow they claimed 37 children? Compare this to the deaths in Joplin. We value life and so we hope that the deaths are at a minimum so only when we are absolutely certain do we increase the death toll.

Are you aware that the Palestinians have been caught transporting already dead bodies to attack sites to claim them as casualties of Israeli military actions?

Please, please, don't think that I am dismissive of even a single innocent civilian's loss of life, but in the harsh reality of combat (not just ME conflicts) civilian deaths are a certainty, not a possibility. Fighting terrorists who all wear civilian clothing doesn't make anything easier. I won't deny that accidents have happened, in the same way friendly fire accidents happen to every military, but I honestly believe that Israel does more than any other country to minimize civilian deaths.
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May 27, 2011, 12:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post

Hebrew refers in modern usage primarily to the language. It can also, however, be used as a synonym for Jewish people, although it's much less common. Abraham is sometimes referred to Abraham HaIvri (Abraham the Hebrew). There's nothing derogatory in my mind about calling a Jew a Hebrew in modern times, but it's just not a common thing to do. Now calling Jews from Europe fake Hebrews as you appeared to do certainly is derogatory.


Hebrew is the English name of the language. The term itself is an anglicized form of the Hebrew word. The word comes from the name Eber, עֵבֶר, an ancestor of Abraham. Hebrew in Hebrew is pronounced Ivrit and spelled עִבְרִית
Was Hebrew originally used to refer to any descendant of Israel (Jacob) and Jewish for the descendants of Judah?
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May 27, 2011, 01:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
I'm sorry about that, then. I was being unfair to you with that reply because you've annoyed me in recent times, and I wanted to rub it in a bit (more).

I've stated my case with clarity. I think I'll take leave from this thread now. Oh, well, one more response to Athens since he calmed down and seems to genuinely be interested in learning things:


Hebrew refers in modern usage primarily to the language. It can also, however, be used as a synonym for Jewish people, although it's much less common. Abraham is sometimes referred to Abraham HaIvri (Abraham the Hebrew). There's nothing derogatory in my mind about calling a Jew a Hebrew in modern times, but it's just not a common thing to do. Now calling Jews from Europe fake Hebrews as you appeared to do certainly is derogatory.


Hebrew is the English name of the language. The term itself is an anglicized form of the Hebrew word. The word comes from the name Eber, עֵבֶר, an ancestor of Abraham. Hebrew in Hebrew is pronounced Ivrit and spelled עִבְרִית
Incase you poke your head in this thread again, why are Jews hated so much, historically and currently. Is it because of the culture, or is it because of the religion. I can't find a clear answer.
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May 28, 2011, 09:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Incase you poke your head in this thread again, why are Jews hated so much, historically and currently. Is it because of the culture, or is it because of the religion. I can't find a clear answer.
Neither can we.
     
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May 28, 2011, 12:36 PM
 
I can understand the emotional involvement, and how certain posts can ramp up those feelings, but there's a line separating passionate replies and one that is a multi-tiered personal attack. I've taken some actions as appropriate. Let's keep it decent.
( Last edited by Cold Warrior; May 28, 2011 at 12:55 PM. )
     
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May 28, 2011, 10:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Incase you poke your head in this thread again, why are Jews hated so much, historically and currently. Is it because of the culture, or is it because of the religion. I can't find a clear answer.
Even if you do find an answer to that question, what troubles me is the fact that you would probably use it to justify your hatred even further.

Maybe, whatever the answer, that's reason enough for a secure Jewish state to exist, where people who subscribe to that ideology/way-of-life can practice it without fear of persecution and discrimination. IMHO

And yes, i do believe unquestionable that Israel is morally superior in this conflict.
     
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May 28, 2011, 10:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Even if you do find an answer to that question, what troubles me is the fact that you would probably use it to justify your hatred even further.

Maybe, whatever the answer, that's reason enough for a secure Jewish state to exist, where people who subscribe to that ideology/way-of-life can practice it without fear of persecution and discrimination. IMHO

And yes, i do believe unquestionable that Israel is morally superior in this conflict.
Im talking about Jewish people, why are they hated, not Israel. I know why Israel is hated. Personally I can't think of using the words moral in any sentence for either side in the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Morals went out the Window a long time ago for the region.
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May 29, 2011, 12:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Personally I can't think of using the words moral in any sentence for either side in the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Morals went out the Window a long time ago for the region.
I can't let this statement go by without reiterating again how much Israel does to avoid civilian deaths. Israel doesn't lie about death counts, Israel doesn't use ambulances to transport bombs, and Israel doesn't prance its children around with suicide belts on. On the other hand Israel does restrain its superior military strength to pinpoint attacks, Israel opens up border crossings and removes checkpoints to provide additional freedom even though it knows it comes at the expense of its own civilians, Israel provides medical care to people around the world, and Israel has offered concessions for the past 60 years and has been turned down every time.

There are always mistakes, (NATO may have just killed 12 children by accident Afghans, NATO investigate airstrike that reportedly killed 12 children - CNN.com) but the general trend is that Israel is, and always has been, morally superior.
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May 29, 2011, 03:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
I can't let this statement go by without reiterating again how much Israel does to avoid civilian deaths. Israel doesn't lie about death counts, Israel doesn't use ambulances to transport bombs, and Israel doesn't prance its children around with suicide belts on. On the other hand Israel does restrain its superior military strength to pinpoint attacks, Israel opens up border crossings and removes checkpoints to provide additional freedom even though it knows it comes at the expense of its own civilians, Israel provides medical care to people around the world, and Israel has offered concessions for the past 60 years and has been turned down every time.

There are always mistakes, (NATO may have just killed 12 children by accident Afghans, NATO investigate airstrike that reportedly killed 12 children - CNN.com) but the general trend is that Israel is, and always has been, morally superior.
So, bringing tanks through Palestinian settlements to level them is restraint? Mossad's constant use of car bombs is restraint? They admit to that, who knows what they don't admit to? Athens is absolutely correct, there is no moral high ground here. BOTH sides aren't afraid to play dirty. You act as if Israel just stands back and watches while Arabs murder them, but if that's true, then how does Israel even exist? Why wouldn't the immoral Palestinians just wipe them off the face of the planet with their money from Iran? Moral superiority may be true in your mind, but you absolutely cannot base policy and decision making off of notions of superiority. What's weird is I don't think that Israel publicly actually ever makes a claim to any sort of superiority, but you and Big Mac seem to make it your primary argument to support Israel with.
     
 
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