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Manufacturing
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Clinically Insane
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Sep 26, 2011, 12:54 AM
 
The cost of health care is a crippling cost for businesses to have to bare, apparently Ontario builds more cars than Michigan now perhaps at least in part because of this.

Let's leave health care out of the picture though, and let's put aside the whole left/right ideology stuff of either tax cuts or stimulating the middle class and assume that the tax rate is 0%... Why would any company manufacture stuff in America rather than China or somewhere else?

Does the manufacturing sector have any hope in America, or is it just the advanced manufacturing stuff of high-tech sort of things that will remain? For how long?

The whole debate left/right debate going on now doesn't really seem to apply to manufacturing...
     
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Sep 26, 2011, 02:22 AM
 
Ok, tax rate is 0%, no left/right ideology and drop medical. What will then determine manufacturing between state to state or province to province will be labor laws, energy costs environmental laws aka red tape and transportation costs.

North America in general is at a massive disadvantage on all fronts and the only stuff that will remain will be stuff related to import laws (Automotive is one of those) and stuff that has to be manufactured here, IE daily news papers is a industry that could never be off loaded over seas. Those will go to the states and provinces with the lowest labor, engery and red tape. Everything else will go over seas.

This is of course ignoring tax rates and healthcare. Put those 2 things back into the mix makes the disadvantage we have even larger.

Manufacturing in North America is dead. We are service, resource, energy and tech economy. For for the tech economy we don't have enough skilled people coming out of universities to meet the demand so despite the high unemployment numbers we still have to import educated people from other countries to maintain our edge even in those sectors.
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Sep 26, 2011, 02:27 AM
 
Like to also add that corporations are now using more and more automation even in China. As working conditions are under the microscope of large companies and the public and generally costs are going up with the Chinese putting more effort into safety and better working conditions its becoming cheaper to Automate in China vs paying people near slave labor wages. So the manufacturing jobs we have lost to China are now starting to be lost to Robots.
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Sep 26, 2011, 02:33 AM
 
Ontario builds more cars than the US because Chrysler put their big factory there from Detroit.
     
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Sep 26, 2011, 02:35 AM
 
And the reason why they put their big factory there?
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
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Sep 26, 2011, 06:01 AM
 
The Chinese are starting to outsource their manufacturing to Brazil now.

I spoke to someone who has had products manufactured by the chinese though and she had lost patience with their quality control and planned to move production back to the UK which is probably just as bad for manufacturing as the US these days.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Clinically Insane
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Sep 26, 2011, 06:22 AM
 
If it is true that manufacturing in North America is dead, then we need to learn to parse through the rhetoric of all politicians to see that the jobs they are promising to create are not coming back.

I'd like to know exactly how the rise of China and India contribute to our unemployment numbers these days.
     
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Sep 26, 2011, 12:38 PM
 
Partially the rise of China and India, and partially changes in import rules. The Auto sector is one of the few industries that still has import rules in place that requires manufacturer locally, between high tariffs and a quota for import, it made Nissan, Honda and Toyota create local manufacturing plants. Free Trade between Canada, Mexico and the US screwed the US again though because a lot of Car manufacturing went to Mexico.

If the same Tariffs and quota's where used on TV's, and other things more manufacturing would return to North America because it would be cheaper then using cheap labor but the lobby groups for big companies done everything it can to prevent this because these companies want to make maximum profits. Since government is a puppet to Business interest it will never happen again. The only reason the Auto sector is the way it is, is because of how powerful the Auto industry unions are and the lobbing efforts they had.
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Sep 26, 2011, 01:21 PM
 
We (Freescale) closed our plants in Japan , France and Scotland, and moved production back to the US. Many of our customers are auto makers.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Sep 26, 2011, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Why would any company manufacture stuff in America rather than China or somewhere else?

Does the manufacturing sector have any hope in America, or is it just the advanced manufacturing stuff of high-tech sort of things that will remain? For how long?
Shipping cost? Just hold our breath for the oil to run out, then globalization will be dead and we'll be on top again.
     
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Sep 26, 2011, 03:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Shipping cost? Just hold our breath for the oil to run out, then globalization will be dead and we'll be on top again.
On top of what?
You'all are being left behind on alternative energy.
Seems to me you'all be the bottom.
No gay reference intended.
( Last edited by screener; Sep 26, 2011 at 03:43 PM. )
     
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Sep 26, 2011, 03:39 PM
 
On top of your mom
     
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Sep 26, 2011, 03:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Shipping cost? Just hold our breath for the oil to run out, then globalization will be dead and we'll be on top again.
so will modern day manufacturing since it's heavily dependent on oil and oil products.
( Last edited by Athens; Sep 26, 2011 at 04:04 PM. )
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
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Sep 26, 2011, 03:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
On top of your mom
Dropped an a, as in you'all.
Better or do I have to make you look stupid.
     
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Sep 26, 2011, 06:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Why would any company manufacture stuff in America rather than China or somewhere else?
As long as the dollar is in the toilet, it will actually be cheaper to build things here than in Canada or Europe. With the concerns about quality in developing countries, the US may make sense from the perspective of spending less to get a quality product.

Does the manufacturing sector have any hope in America, or is it just the advanced manufacturing stuff of high-tech sort of things that will remain? For how long?
Isn't the "advanced manufacturing of high-tech stuff" where the real money is?
     
Clinically Insane
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Sep 26, 2011, 07:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dork. View Post
As long as the dollar is in the toilet, it will actually be cheaper to build things here than in Canada or Europe. With the concerns about quality in developing countries, the US may make sense from the perspective of spending less to get a quality product.
Yeah, but only if there is a significant number of manufacturing affected by the quality of stuff built in China? I mean, China seems to be good enough for Apple. How many companies would be negatively impacted by making stuff in China or elsewhere I don't know.

As far as Canada or Europe goes, I guess this is a fair point.


Isn't the "advanced manufacturing of high-tech stuff" where the real money is?
I guess, but I'm assuming that the jobs leaving states such as Indiana or Ohio were not advanced manufacturing, and that these economies haven't really recovered from their jobs being shipped overseas.

Also, I'm not sure what percentage of the economy specialized medical instruments or whatever needs to be built here in America represents compared to stuff that can be mass-built in China and elsewhere, like our iPhones.
     
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Sep 26, 2011, 09:54 PM
 
i suppose the question is what can we build here that you CAN'T build elsewhere ?

it's a scary thought, thanks bess
     
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Sep 26, 2011, 09:56 PM
 
btw, sorry for doing this here

why do i only see 4 threads in p/w?
     
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Sep 26, 2011, 11:53 PM
 
With China it's a no brainer.

Poor policy with respect to labor laws, unions, restricting wages to make sure they're lower than the US, and poor environmental laws.

Shipping is almost free from China to US. You know all that oil you pay to have disposed? They use stuff like that in bunker fuel since there's no environment laws in the ocean. China is also ahead of everyone else when it comes to recycling oil products.

Within Chinese circles many are predicting a soviet like collapse of China in the next 5 years. I'm not sure it will be that dramatic or that soon, but things aren't looking good for them. China has 25% of the world's population and is dependent on trade for their food requirements. Chinese also aren't blind to the fact that there is large class disparity with only a small number of people making all the money so they've started putting a lot more pressure on the government about the labor situation which has driven many jobs back to Vietnam and Malaysia.

As much as people complain in the US I can't see the young generation caring much for manufacturing labor even if it did come back. Making the nuts and bolts of things is kind of tedious and boring. Most youth today go to college and want something "more" with their life.
     
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Sep 27, 2011, 02:32 AM
 
most youth will be happy with 20+ hour jobs with benefits. There is always going to be a working class that does not fit well into school or high education jobs to fill manufacturing jobs. More importantly those well paid worker people spend money allowing those high paid educated jobs to function. If we got manufacturing jobs back, the labor will be there to support them.
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Clinically Insane
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Sep 27, 2011, 02:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
most youth will be happy with 20+ hour jobs with benefits. There is always going to be a working class that does not fit well into school or high education jobs to fill manufacturing jobs. More importantly those well paid worker people spend money allowing those high paid educated jobs to function. If we got manufacturing jobs back, the labor will be there to support them.

Exactly. What do we do with all of those people that used to work in manufacturing stuff and don't have the skills or education to be moved into a new job?
     
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Sep 27, 2011, 02:51 AM
 
And the ones that dont finish high school let alone never go on to anything beyond high school. Many adults not skilled in anything are working at fast food places making minimum wage because the kind of jobs that paid well they could do are no longer here. This then creates a problem for those entering the work force as teenagers with more competition against people that shouldn't even be working those jobs.
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Sep 27, 2011, 03:52 AM
 
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
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Sep 27, 2011, 06:49 AM
 
If the first world wants to keep manufacturing, it needs to make much more complicated products. Given that things like semiconductors and computer equipment can be made over in China and the east now, this leaves really high end life-or-death stuff like aerospace. (I saw an awesome program about Rolls-Royce and how the grow single crystal turbine blades for their jet engines, really amazing stuff). That and low-tech but high skill manufacturing like hand made sports cars.

The latter has declined partly because of the car markets in general but also because these skills take lifetimes to cultivate and the apprentices of today don't have the patience or dedication to stay in the same job and learn them.
The low tech, high skill market is what China will need to try and cultivate to avoid losing its own manufacturing bases to the likes of India and Brazil.

Essentially there is a clear developmental path for all countries to follow but the end point is also fairly clear and the first world has hit it already. Its possible better planning could have extended it a little further but realistically, how would/will the world work when every country is developed enough to be considered first world?
Its already high time we built a "B Ark" or two.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Sep 27, 2011, 08:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Its already high time we built a "B Ark" or two.
     
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Sep 27, 2011, 01:23 PM
 
Hog wash, has nothing to do with how advance the product is. Aerospace is a local industry because of its sensitive nature including very secret technology and subsidized government funding and contracts. If it was free to leave it would leave.
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Sep 27, 2011, 02:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Hog wash, has nothing to do with how advance the product is. Aerospace is a local industry because of its sensitive nature including very secret technology and subsidized government funding and contracts. If it was free to leave it would leave.
So you'd be happy flying in a plane whose 10,000rpm engines were made on the cheap in China?

Good luck with that....
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Sep 27, 2011, 03:02 PM
 
???
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