[The Godfather]

Is this another case of businesses working their employees to the edge of unsafe conditions, or is the captain the ONLY one with blood on their hands?

[subego]

I haven't been paying too close attention to this.

A quick perusal doesn't say anything about being overworked. The notable stuff I've found is an accusation the Captain was trying to be a show-off, as well as how he left the ship while there were still survivors.

[ghporter]

It looks bad all around. Let's start with getting fully underweigh without having yet conducted a lifeboat drill. And the crew seems to have been completely lost about how to handle the emergency, deal with passengers, operate the lifeboat hoists, etc. Only then should we think Abu thy the captain decided to use such a close approach in waters that are among the most historically well-charted in the world.

I've taken at least 5 cruises, and they have been wonderful experiences, even given the unpleasant weather we ran into at times (topside was off limits and "convenience" bags were made available at all the stairwells due to a pretty rough storm in the Caribbean). I know people who have cruised with numerous different cruise lines, and they have all commented on how well the crew handled what cropped up, from someone getting very I'll while at sea to going above and beyond in helping someone who depended on a power wheel chair get to a wedding at the very topmost deck without direct elevator service. I simply cannot see how all the different problems on this particular cruise could have happened at all.

[subego]

Damn you, auto-correct!

[imitchellg5]

Massive death count? 4 is massive? Out of 4.4k?

[subego]

There are still some 10 or so people unaccounted for.

While I wouldn't use the term "massive", considering the context (running aground) I find more than say, two, to be surprising.

[Waragainstsleep]

I think its 5 now.

[Wiskedjak]

Any deaths here are unacceptable, but "massive" is a massive overstatement.

[ghporter]

The toll seems to be about 7 right now, which puts it at 7 more than all the previous reported "cruise ship accidents" in the past ten years. (The two or three cases of people jumping/being pushed off balconies on these ships don't count in this, as they were not really related to the ship.) Completely unacceptable, but "massive"? With 4200 passengers and still only a handful missing, it is unlikely the toll will go above 12 or so, thus "massive" is completely hyperbolic.

[subego]

It seems to me that the only way there should have been a death here is, ummm... massive head trauma during the impact.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

The toll seems to be about 7 right now, which puts it at 7 more than all the previous reported "cruise ship accidents" in the past ten years. (The two or three cases of people jumping/being pushed off balconies on these ships don't count in this, as they were not really related to the ship.) Completely unacceptable, but "massive"? With 4200 passengers and still only a handful missing, it is unlikely the toll will go above 12 or so, thus "massive" is completely hyperbolic.

There are quite a few cruise-ship related deaths every year. This very ship was involved in a docking accident 3 years ago that killed 7 crew members. They just generally don't involve passengers.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

There are quite a few cruise-ship related deaths every year. This very ship was involved in a docking accident 3 years ago that killed 7 crew members. They just generally don't involve passengers.

If that was the same captain I'd say he definitely deserves some punishment. How do you kill 7 crew members in a docking accident anyway? I can see one or two but 7?

[Big Mac]

I'm sure it's the fault of government under-regulation. Damn Tea Party. Oh wait. . .

[ghporter]

Thanks, imitchell, I wasn't aware of that. It seems that such events don't get into the news unless passengers are involved, which is a travesty. Still, 7 deaths, while tragic, cannot be characterized as "massive."

News reports this morning are mentioning a total of 6 fatalities.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

If that was the same captain I'd say he definitely deserves some punishment. How do you kill 7 crew members in a docking accident anyway? I can see one or two but 7?

I'm not sure of the circumstances, but if you've ever been on a dock (my grandfather was a longshoremen for the port of Seattle), it's a high-risk and dangerous place at times. You've got noise from equipment, you've got stuff laying around you, huge cables that sometimes do snap, cargo going overhead, and oftentimes, crappy weather. It's all too easy for something to go majorly wrong.

If it were the same captain, he would have been punished, don't worry. Though docking can largely be an automated process these days.

[OAW]

From what I've gathered based on news reports .... the captain will take the hit for this. If the ship set sail before all the passengers were trained on the evacuation procedures ... that is the captain's responsibility. The only exception would be if he could prove he was under pressure from his superiors to ignore protocol. Beyond that, there was a designated route for the cruise ships to take set by company policy. For some strange and unknown reason the captain decided to veer off course.

OAW

[The Final Dakar]

What's the massive death count? Also, would have been nice if OP had linked to an article so it was easier to know what the hell he was on about.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by The Godfather 

Is this another case of businesses working their employees to the edge of unsafe conditions, or is the captain the ONLY one with blood on their hands?

I think its a combination of both. I think the accidently is the sole responsibility of the captain. But the way the crew responded to the sinking after it hit is a issue that I think the company as a whole is responsible for.

[Eug]

They're claiming he deviated from a pre-programmed course to get a better look at the island, and hit a reef that wasn't documented on all maps but which was common knowledge to the locals.

Costa Concordia cruise ship sinking: Striking photographs of tragedy in shallow waters | News | National Post

It's so out of place looking, it actually looks Photoshopped.





P.S. A colleague took a cruise on that ship a few years ago. She says her cruise was rated 5.5* - ultra luxurious. The cost of the ship to build was $570 million back in 2006, and some analysts claim that it would cost $500 million today to fix it now - which effective means a total loss. However, Carnival group says it will likely cost around $100 million to fix it - but I wonder if that's because of insurance. Nonetheless, they've lost about $1 billion off their stock price.

[turtle777]

Mistake #1: they didn't have an evacuation drill before they left their port of origin. WTF ?

Alas, I didn't expect much different from a big cruise ship.

-t

[Eug]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Mistake #1: they didn't have an evacuation drill before they left their port of origin. WTF ?

Ironically, their evacuation drill was scheduled for later that day.

BTW, this spring marks the 100th anniversary of the Titanic's sinking. Speaking of which... here is a quote from this ship's captain:

"I wouldn't like to be in the role of the captain of the Titanic, having to sail in an ocean of icebergs," Francesco Schettino said in the December 2010 interview with the Czech daily, Dnes, which the newspaper splashed on its website yesterday.

"But I think that thanks to preparation, you can handle any situation and deal with potential problems," he told a reporter from the paper who happened to be on a cruise with him. "Passenger security is paramount."

[lpkmckenna]

There are 29 people still missing.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Eug 

The cost of the ship to build was $570 million back in 2006, and some analysts claim that it would cost $500 million today to fix it now - which effective means a total loss. However, Carnival group says it will likely cost around $100 million to fix it - but I wonder if that's because of insurance. Nonetheless, they've lost about $1 billion off their stock price.

I read Carnival will take about a $130M loss:
$85-95M in future bookings they can't accommodate
$30M hull insurance deductible
$10M personal injury insurance deductible

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Is anything just an accident anymore, with no one necessarily at fault in a neglectful way?

[Waragainstsleep]

Not when there are lawsuits and compensation to be had.

[Eug]

Audio of ship evacuation call released - Yahoo! News

The audio has the coast guard / port authority screaming at the captain to get back on board the ship to tell them WTF is going on.

---

BTW, they blew a hole in the side of the ship to gain access to other parts. So far they've found 5 more bodies.

[The Godfather]

1. The only place I've heard a captain sinks with her/his ship was in the famous movie Titanic. I think not even the Star Trek captains immolated themselves with their spaceships (after begging of the crew in some cases though)
2. What law requires the captain to remain in ship until the last passenger is rescued? Today, he would be still in the ship.
3. Should we hold commercial captains to the same standards as military captains?
4. I bet you his children are happy.
5. The cruise company has pocketed BOATLOADS of money in missed training, and now reaps BOATLOADS of corpses.

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Not when there are lawsuits and compensation to be had.

Yes because the captains few thousand euros in a fundless Italian bank is such a booty.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by The Godfather 

1. The only place I've heard a captain sinks with her/his ship was in the famous movie Titanic. I think not even the Star Trek captains immolated themselves with their spaceships (after begging of the crew in some cases though)
2. What law requires the captain to remain in ship until the last passenger is rescued? Today, he would be still in the ship.
3. Should we hold commercial captains to the same standards as military captains?
4. I bet you his children are happy.
5. The cruise company has pocketed BOATLOADS of money in missed training, and now reaps BOATLOADS of corpses.

1. "Going down with the ship." is not what he was legally required to do.
2. The one that Italian prosecutors are looking to charge him with. Various news reports are saying that he's facing 12 years in prison on this charge alone. Even more time if he's also convicted on manslaughter and shipwreck charges.
3. When it comes to ensuring the safety and evacuation of passengers on his ship? Absolutely.
4. I'm sure they are in a "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" sense of things. However, I imagine they won't be too happy spending the rest of their childhood visiting their father in jail.
5. This is altogether possible. As I said earlier he would need to prove pressure from his superiors to skip training. If not, he takes the hit alone. Period.

OAW

[ghporter]

The captain should be THE LAST person to leave the ship. Not "go down with," but "last to evacuate," as the captain is responsible for the individual personal safety of every passenger and crewman aboard. That is codified in international law. It would seem that this particular captain left before the passenger evacuation actually got fully underway, which is certainly I contrary to the precepts of "responsibility" that go with being captain of anything larger than a cabin cruiser.

[The Godfather]

That's a Hollywood fabricated imaginary law, of the imaginary international law book that you refer to, unless the UN presses charges.

On the other hand, unknown journalists are referring to an Italian rule that requires the captn to not abandon ship, yet no details on how far the rule goes or how it applies. Important details.

[ghporter]

International conventions on shipping include specific duties and responsibilities for masters of vessels in international waters. Here is a good article on the subject.. It doesn't take the UN to press charges for this to be enforced, because a vessel's master that fails in these responsibilities won't be able to find a job scraping paint on tugs in a backwater, and the shipping line owner will be in a position to justify employing someone who doesn't take his responsibilities seriously, particularly in terms of perhaps not having their ships allowed into other ports because of the offending captain.

[Eug]

Italy enthralled by ship's tale of two captains

ROME (Reuters) - The Coast Guard officer who ordered the captain of the capsized Italian cruise ship to go back aboard unwittingly became an instant hero on Wednesday, credited with saving the national honor on one of its darkest nights.

Italy has become enthralled with the tale of two captains.

One is Coast Guard Captain Gregorio De Falco, who furiously ordered the skipper of the Costa Concordia to return to his ship and oversee the rescue operations.

The other is Captain Francesco Schettino - whom newspapers have branded a coward for fleeing in the face of adversity and who is now under house arrest, accused of multiple manslaughter, causing a shipwreck and abandoning ship.

"Listen Schettino, perhaps you have saved yourself from the sea but I will make you look very bad. I will make you pay for this. Go on board (Expletive!)" De Falco yelled at Schettino during a 4-minute radio exchange made public on Tuesday.

The Italian word De Falco used, "cazzo" in Italian, is slang for the male sexual organ but it is commonly used to emphasize something, equivalent to "Go on board, damn it."

The imperative phrase in Italian -- "Vada a bordo, cazzo!" -- was already on T-shirts by Wednesday morning.

"Thank You, Captain" was the more sedate headline the country's largest national newspaper, Corriere della Sera, chose on Wednesday, reflecting the gratitude of Italians who see Schettino's behavior as a national embarrassment.

"Two men ... two stories, one who humiliates us, the other who redeems. Thank you Captain De Falco, our country badly needs people like you," the Corriere della Sera said.

An editorial in La Stampa said Schettino "filled the void in the disgrace and lies department left by Berlusconi," a reference to Italy's scandal-plagued former prime minister.

[olePigeon]

The audio was pretty cool. Kudos to their Coast Guard.

[Waragainstsleep]

Have you heard the latest gem? Apparently the captain tripped and fell into a lifeboat, abandoning ship 'by accident'.

Priceless.

[OAW]

^^^^^^^

Originally Posted by Capt. Schettino

You see what had happened was .....

OAW

[Eug]

I betcha he'd use the slipped and fell excuse for the ER too.

[Eug]

Animated.

Too soon?

[The Godfather]

Woman's body found in wrecked Italy cruise ship - CNN.com

If you won't classify 32 people a massive tragedy, can you at least classify it as a boatload?

The 3200 passengers, who are mostly 1-percenters have filed a lawsuit against Concordia. Do you think this case will be settled, or will Concordia be convicted and all assets be split in 3200 pieces, or will Concordia win.

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Animated.

Too soon?

I don't understand why that production team hasn't signed up a contract with a US mainstream media channel. I think even PBS would like that kind of productions.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by The Godfather 

The 3200 passengers, who are mostly 1-percenters

What the heck does that mean

-t

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by The Godfather 

Yes because the captains few thousand euros in a fundless Italian bank is such a booty.

If the captain owned and operated the ship himself, this statement would be relevant. The cruise line will be held liable for his actions or lack thereof.

[The Godfather]

That none of them will settle for 6 figures. None.
Just to drive the point that there will be no settlement and this legal fight will go to the bitter end.

[Waragainstsleep]

I don't think 1-percenters go on cruises like that. They have their own yachts.

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I don't think 1-percenters go on cruises like that. They have their own yachts.

They call the cruise "public transportation" and tell their accountants to write in carbon credits in the 1040EZ.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by The Godfather 

Woman's body found in wrecked Italy cruise ship - CNN.com

If you won't classify 32 people a massive tragedy, can you at least classify it as a boatload?

The 3200 passengers, who are mostly 1-percenters have filed a lawsuit against Concordia. Do you think this case will be settled, or will Concordia be convicted and all assets be split in 3200 pieces, or will Concordia win.

Cruise vacations are hardly the territory of the "1%" crowd. I am solidly middle class and I've gone on several. The cost is typically around $1100 to $2000 per person, and is very competitive with four star lodgings and meals with the added benefit that you don't have to pack up and move from one hotel room to another. Your view of who goes on cruises is rather out of touch. Yes, you save up for these, but it is usually a really wonderful experience and worth the saving and anticipation.

By the way, the loss of even one life would be a tragedy, but to classify this as a "massive" loss of life is an injustice to those who experienced truly horrendous losses in bigger disasters. Carnival is offering people a pittance considering that their employees failed miserably to follow safe procedures, provide adequate evacuation, and were unable to keep track of the passengers well enough to know whether or not they were in a position to be rescued. The fact that the crew didn't manage to properly deploy the lifeboats should alone make Carnival chagrined enough to offer a whole lot more than the $14k.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by The Godfather 

That none of them will settle for 6 figures. None.
Just to drive the point that there will be no settlement and this legal fight will go to the bitter end.

Again, WTF does that have to do with 1%ers ?

-t