Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Conceal Carry, the 2nd Amendment, & Vigilantism

Conceal Carry, the 2nd Amendment, & Vigilantism (Page 11)
Thread Tools
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2012, 12:50 AM
 
2nd degree murder is going to be a difficult case to prove unless the prosecution has some sort of concrete and strong evidence.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2012, 12:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
2nd degree murder is going to be a difficult case to prove unless the prosecution has some sort of concrete and strong evidence.
Does Florida have lesser included charges, so the jury can come back manslaughter?
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Nov 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2012, 07:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
2nd degree murder is going to be a difficult case to prove unless the prosecution has some sort of concrete and strong evidence.
I agree. If there's a witness that says that Martin was getting the best of Zimmerman in an altercation, you can argue that the intent of Zimmerman wasn't the death of Martin, but rather to avoid harm to himself.

In a way that is self defense, but Zimmerman is culpable in the circumstances that lead to his feeling he had to shoot Martin in self defense. If he'd followed instructions and not given Martin a reason to feel that he himself needed to defend himself, the altercation would not have taken place and no death would have occurred. Zimmerman was the initial aggressor and as such has responsibility in the outcome of the situation.

I'd say that the 2nd Degree charge was to appease the masses, and that they should wait awhile for things to cool down then accept a guilty plea to manslaughter, which I think that the evidence we know so far justifies. I really don't think that the evidence supports any kind of murder.
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2012, 07:52 AM
 
I'm calling it: Zimmerman will plea to manslaughter. The fact that his attorney's were fighting this in the media when they didn't have to, and then abandoned him so close to the charge filling, tells me he's toast.
     
OAW  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2012, 01:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I'm calling it: Zimmerman will plea to manslaughter. The fact that his attorney's were fighting this in the media when they didn't have to, and then abandoned him so close to the charge filling, tells me he's toast.
Agreed. I'm thinking that IF the judge doesn't dismiss the charges beforehand based upon the "Stand Your Ground" statute ... which the Special Prosecutor has already said they will fight ... then either Mr. Zimmerman will plea to manslaughter or a jury will convict him of the lesser charge of manslaughter. Unless they have have a witness who saw him shoot the kid in cold blood ... or unless the ballistics and forensics report show the same (which would be even better) ... then 2nd Degree Murder will be a hard nut to crack.

OAW
     
OAW  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2012, 01:06 PM
 
A couple of articles dealing with these "Stand Your Ground" laws and the rather "interesting" results that ensued ....

When "stand your ground" fails - Crime - Salon.com

Here we have a man doing life for shooting a guy that had pulled a knife on his teenage son, refused to leave his property even after the man fired a warning shot, and rushed the man reaching for the knife in his pocket. All with eyewitness testimony from a neighbor corroborating his story. Seems like "Stand Your Ground" should have applied. Moreover the "Castle Doctrine" should have applied. But not so much in this case and interestingly enough, not a peep out of the NRA which is typically all over cases like this.

Tulsa shootings: Jacob England, Alvin Watts, and George Zimmerman-examining the roots of vigilantism. - Slate Magazine

Here we have a man who was killed by a guy that was threatening his daughter and trying to break into her home. The man hit the guy with a stick ... and the guy shot him dead. The guy is doing time for pointing a weapon but not for the homicide because of "Stand Your Ground". He's facing attempted burglary and felony weapons possession charges stemming from the incident as well. But two years later the man's son and one of his buddies decided to do a little "night-riding" and shoot 5 random people in some sort of "retaliation" it would seem. 3 or whom were killed. These two knuckleheads have already confessed and they'll be lucky to escape the death penalty. But it would seem to me that "Stand Your Ground" should NOT have applied in the case of the guy that shot the one knucklehead's father.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Apr 12, 2012 at 01:27 PM. )
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Great White North
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2012, 02:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
I agree. If there's a witness that says that Martin was getting the best of Zimmerman in an altercation, you can argue that the intent of Zimmerman wasn't the death of Martin, but rather to avoid harm to himself.

In a way that is self defense, but Zimmerman is culpable in the circumstances that lead to his feeling he had to shoot Martin in self defense. If he'd followed instructions and not given Martin a reason to feel that he himself needed to defend himself, the altercation would not have taken place and no death would have occurred. Zimmerman was the initial aggressor and as such has responsibility in the outcome of the situation.

I'd say that the 2nd Degree charge was to appease the masses, and that they should wait awhile for things to cool down then accept a guilty plea to manslaughter, which I think that the evidence we know so far justifies. I really don't think that the evidence supports any kind of murder.
Unless Martin was getting the best of Zimmerman while defending himself. This is the key question, or was the attacker and who was the defender. IF a attacker ends up getting his ass kicked from some one he attacked, then you can't say its defense when he killed his victim to save himself from a mistake.
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
OAW  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2012, 05:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Unless Martin was getting the best of Zimmerman while defending himself. This is the key question, or was the attacker and who was the defender. IF a attacker ends up getting his ass kicked from some one he attacked, then you can't say its defense when he killed his victim to save himself from a mistake.
Indeed. I think Mr. Zimmerman is going to be hard pressed to show that he was in some sort of "life-or-death struggle" with Trayvon Martin that would justify his use of deadly force. Especially if a voice analysis of the person screaming for help on the 911 tape shows that it wasn't his voice.



The Seminole County Sheriff's office said Zimmerman underwent a series of physical and mental health tests after arriving at the jail Wednesday night. He was then sent to protective custody where he was isolated from other inmates and under constant watch in his own cell, ABC News has learned.

Zimmerman was upset and weeped for part of the night in his cell.

There was no sign of scarring on the back of his head and the booking photo shows no indication that his nose had been broken in his confontation with Martin, as Zimmerman's former legal team had claimed.
Zimmerman Wept in Jail Before Court Appearance on Murder Charges in Trayvon Martin Shooting - ABC News

OAW
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2012, 06:43 PM
 
     
OAW  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2012, 07:08 PM
 
Nice try ....

Trayvon Martin's mother says the encounter between her son and a neighborhood watch volunteer was an accident, not the shooting that left her 17-year-old son dead.

Sybrina Fulton clarified her remarks Thursday to The Associated Press after she referred to what happened to her son on NBC's "Today" show as an accident.

Some viewers interpreted her remark to mean she was referring to the shooting, but she says that isn't what she meant. She says the encounter between Martin and George Zimmerman was the accident.

Zimmerman was charged Wednesday with second-degree murder. He is awaiting a first appearance before a judge in a central Florida jail.

Martin's death, and the delay in Zimmerman's arrest, led to protests nationwide.

Zimmerman says he shot Martin in self-defense during the Feb. 26 confrontation.
Trayvon Martin's mom clarifies 'accident' remark

The Special Prosecutor's office has completed its initial investigation. And it would appear that ... quite unlike the Sanford Chief of Police and the local DA ... the Special Prosecutor is willing to acknowledge the brain-dead obvious that millions of people have recognized from the very beginning of this tragic situation. Namely, there is ample probable cause to conclude that Mr. Zimmerman profiled Trayvon Martin ... followed him ... confronted him ... and then shot him dead. Therefore Mr. Zimmerman being arrested and brought up on murder charges is totally warranted.

On Sunday 2/26/12, Trayvon Martin was temporarily living at the Retreat at Twin Lakes, a gated community in Sanford, Seminole County, Florida. That evening Martin walked to a nearby 7-11 store where he purchased a can of iced tea and a bag of skittles. Martin then walked back to and entered the gated community and was on his way back to the townhouse where he was living when he was profiled by George Zimmerman. Martin was unarmed and was not committing a crime.

Zimmerman who also lived in the gated community, and was driving his vehicle observed Martin and assumed Martin was a criminal. Zimmerman felt Martin did not belong in the gated community and called the police. Zimmerman spoke to the dispatcher and asked for an officer to respond because Zimmerman perceived that Martin was acting suspicious. The police dispatcher informed Zimmerman that an officer was on the way and to wait for the officer.

During the recorded call Zimmerman made reference to people he felt had committed and gotten away with break-ins in his neighborhood. Later while talking about Martin, Zimmerman stated "these assholes, they always get away" and also said "these f*cking punks".

During this time, Martin was on the phone with a friend and described to her what was happening. The witness advised that Martin was scared because he was being followed through the complex by an unknown male and didn't know why. Martin attempted to run home but was followed by Zimmerman who didn't want the person he falsely assumed was going to commit a crime to get away before the police arrived. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and followed Martin. When the police dispatcher realized Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, he instructed Zimmerman not to do that and that the responding officer would meet him. Zimmerman disregarded the police dispatcher and continued to follow Martin who was trying to return to his home.

Zimmerman confronted Martin and a struggle ensued. Witnesses heard people arguing and what sounded like a struggle. During this time period witnesses heard numerous calls for help and some of these were recorded in 911 calls to police. Trayvon Martin's mother has reviewed the 911 calls and identified the voice crying for help as Trayvon Martin's voice.

Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest. When police arrived Zimmerman admitted shooting Martin.
Officers recovered a gun from a holster inside Zimmerman's waistband. A fired casing that was recovered at the scene was determined to have been fired from the firearm.

Assistant Medical Examiner Dr. Bao performed an autopsy and determined that Martin died from the gunshot wound.

The facts mentioned in this Affidavit are not a complete recitation of all the pertinent facts and evidence in this case but only are presented for a determination of Probable Cause for Second Degree Murder.
Affidavit of Probable Cause

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Apr 12, 2012 at 07:22 PM. )
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2012, 07:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Murder 2 requires a depraved mind; I wonder if the defense will ask her to testify. Seems risky.
Why? Is she a witness to the event?
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Great White North
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2012, 07:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Indeed. I think Mr. Zimmerman is going to be hard pressed to show that he was in some sort of "life-or-death struggle" with Trayvon Martin that would justify his use of deadly force. Especially if a voice analysis of the person screaming for help on the 911 tape shows that it wasn't his voice.





Zimmerman Wept in Jail Before Court Appearance on Murder Charges in Trayvon Martin Shooting - ABC News

OAW
Even if he was in a life and death struggle and even if Zimmerman's life WAS in danger its still not DEFENSE if he was the aggressor and was just getting his @ss handed back to him. The other person was defending and under the law had every right to fight back with deadly force. This is what is flawed with this law because if some one is attacked and decided to try to use deadly force on the attacker, the attacker can also claim they where defending against the use of deadly force on them. What you end up with is the right of 2 people to kill each other...
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2012, 11:30 PM
 
The affidavit says Martin "attempted to run home", anyone know how that was established? Eyewitness or DeeDee or what? Why did he turn around - Zimmerman yelling? Zimmerman chasing? I think it's been established there was only one shot and it was to the front of Martin.

Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Her backpedaling doesn't make any sense given the narrative. Where's the accident in the backpedaled version?
"An unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally" - what's the unexpected and unintentional?

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Why? Is she a witness to the event?
I believe they call character witnesses too, possibly not until sentencing time. Overall she seems like a poor choice for the defense, but her comments are sloppy.
     
OAW  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2012, 11:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
The affidavit says Martin "attempted to run home", anyone know how that was established? Eyewitness or DeeDee or what? Why did he turn around - Zimmerman yelling? Zimmerman chasing? I think it's been established there was only one shot and it was to the front of Martin.
Ok. At this point I'm going to have to ask if you even bothered to listen to the 911 tapes? Because of you did you would know that Zimmerman himself said the kid took off running. Various news reports have said that his girlfriend on the phone said he was afraid of this unknown guy following him. So seriously. WTF do you mean "how that was established"?

Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Her backpedaling doesn't make any sense given the narrative. Where's the accident in the backpedaled version?
The "accident" is that Trayvon Martin unfortunately came across a guy who obviously was inclined to view a young black teen as a criminal even though he was simply Walking While Black (WWB). And that "accident" of circumstance led to his death because the guy he happened to come across was legally carrying a gun and had a "wannabe cop" complex. How about that?

OAW
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Nov 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2012, 07:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Even if he was in a life and death struggle and even if Zimmerman's life WAS in danger its still not DEFENSE if he was the aggressor and was just getting his @ss handed back to him. The other person was defending and under the law had every right to fight back with deadly force. This is what is flawed with this law because if some one is attacked and decided to try to use deadly force on the attacker, the attacker can also claim they where defending against the use of deadly force on them. What you end up with is the right of 2 people to kill each other...
So I think it comes down to intent. I don't think that you can prove that Zimmerman set out to kill Martin or even planned on his death when he pulled the trigger. If Martin was getting the best of him and he did fear for his life, his intent was to stay alive. Because of that, I think that manslaughter is the more appropriate charge. He had culpability in a death that was not at the outset intentional.
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Calgary
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2012, 09:20 AM
 
I agree. It would be quite difficult to prove murder here without more evidence than has been released.
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Great White North
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2012, 01:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
So I think it comes down to intent. I don't think that you can prove that Zimmerman set out to kill Martin or even planned on his death when he pulled the trigger. If Martin was getting the best of him and he did fear for his life, his intent was to stay alive. Because of that, I think that manslaughter is the more appropriate charge. He had culpability in a death that was not at the outset intentional.
I can agree with that.

Can some one explain to me the differences between Murder 1, Murder 2 and Manslaughter?
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
OAW  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2012, 02:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
I can agree with that.

Can some one explain to me the differences between Murder 1, Murder 2 and Manslaughter?
Look here for Florida specifics. But in general from a layperson's standpoint you can think of it like this ....

First Degree Murder is any murder that is willful and premeditated. Felony Murder is typically first degree.[5]

Second Degree Murder is a murder that is not premeditated or planned in advance.[6]

Voluntary Manslaughter sometimes called a "Heat of Passion" murder, is any intentional killing that involved no prior intent to kill, and which was committed under such circumstances that would "cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed." Both this and second degree murder are committed on the spot, but the two differ in the magnitude of the circumstances surrounding the crime. For example, a bar fight that results in death would ordinarily constitute second degree murder. If that same bar fight stemmed from a discovery of infidelity, however, it may be mitigated to voluntary manslaughter.[7]

Involuntary Manslaughter stems from unintentional, but criminally negligent behavior. A drunk driving-related death is typically involuntary manslaughter. Note that the "unintentional" element here refers to the lack of intent to bring about the death. All three crimes above feature an intent to kill, whereas involuntary manslaughter is "unintentional," because the killer did not intend for a death to result from his intentional actions.[8]
Murder (United States law): Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So as you can see, the line between 2nd Degree Murder and Voluntary Manslaughter is quite murky. It all comes down to the mitigating circumstances. So while Mr. Zimmerman likely did not set out to kill Trayvon Martin ... he did leave his vehicle and follow him (against the 911 Dispatcher's instructions) ... he was armed ... and he had made statements of "These assholes, they always get away" and "f*cking punks" which the prosecutor will argue is indicative of a person with a state of mind to initiate a confrontation. So even if he didn't intend to kill Trayvon Martin ... if the prosecution can prove that he intended to pick the fight that led to his death ... he is in jeopardy of a 2nd Degree Murder conviction because there is no doubt that he pulled the trigger. Now as others have stated, that may be difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. I imagine Mr. Zimmerman's attorneys will have him swear on a stack of Bibles that he only intended to locate the kid in order to tell the responding officers where he was. So it will come down to which story the jury believes. But in Florida the jury has the option to acquit on the 2nd Degree Murder charge and convict on the lesser charge of Manslaughter. So even if the jurors don't believe Mr. Zimmerman's story based upon a "preponderance of the evidence" standard ... they could decide to go that route as a compromise since the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard may be difficult to achieve when it comes to ascertaining Mr. Zimmerman's intentions.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Apr 13, 2012 at 02:23 PM. )
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Nov 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2012, 04:04 PM
 
That sums it up nicely!

I'm no lawyer, but Alan Dershowitz is, and this is what he thinks about the 2nd Degree murder charge:

“Most affidavits of probable cause are very thin. This is so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge,” Dershowitz said. “There’s simply nothing in there that would justify second degree murder.”
( Last edited by stupendousman; Apr 13, 2012 at 04:17 PM. )
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2012, 04:07 PM
 
The affidavit doesn't mention any witnesses who saw Zimmerman beating up Martin or saw Zimmerman throwing the first punch. How are they going to counter the self-defense claim?

Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Ok. At this point I'm going to have to ask if you even bothered to listen to the 911 tapes? Because of you did you would know that Zimmerman himself said the kid took off running. Various news reports have said that his girlfriend on the phone said he was afraid of this unknown guy following him. So seriously. WTF do you mean "how that was established"?
So now you're willing to believe whatever Zimmerman says about the incident? Hmm, that's new.

Originally Posted by OAW View Post
The "accident" is that Trayvon Martin unfortunately came across a guy who obviously was inclined to view a young black teen as a criminal even though he was simply Walking While Black (WWB). And that "accident" of circumstance led to his death because the guy he happened to come across was legally carrying a gun and had a "wannabe cop" complex. How about that?
This is an incredible stretch of the English language and not in any way reflected in the plain language of Sybrina's answer:

Q: I want to ask Tracy and Sybrina, either of you can take this question. If you were to come face to face with George Zimmerman, what do you want to tell him? What do you want to ask him?

A: One of the things that I still believe in: a person should apologize when they are actually remorseful for what they've done. I believe it was an accident. I believe that it just got out of control, and he couldn't turn the clock back. I would ask him, did he know that that was a minor, that that was a teenager and that he did not have a weapon? I would ask him -- that I understand that his family is hurting, but think about our family that lost our teenage son. I mean, it's just very difficult to live with day in and day out. I'm sure his parents can pick up the phone and call him, but we can't pick up the phone and call Trayvon anymore.
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Calgary
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2012, 05:06 PM
 
It's really quite irrelevant is the mother thinks it was an accident or not. She wasn't there.
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2012, 06:37 PM
 
Only one living person was there and this thread isn't willing to believe him.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2012, 06:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Only one living person was there and this thread isn't willing to believe him.
So?
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: planning a comeback !
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2012, 06:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Only one living person was there and this thread isn't willing to believe him.
Seriously, that's your argument ?

It's pretty clear that NO MATTER WHAT REALLY HAPPENED, the story of Zimmermann would always be the same (that he's innocent and just defended himself.)

Therefore, his opinion / story is worthless.

-t
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2012, 07:12 PM
 
The same can be said of the mother, yet she's on national tv.

This thread is very tempting to troll because you're so easy to stir up.
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Great White North
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2012, 07:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Only one living person was there and this thread isn't willing to believe him.
Willing or is it the facts that are known do not support him....
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2012, 09:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Only one living person was there and this thread isn't willing to believe him.
Zimmerman told 3 different stories. Which version do you believe in?
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: planning a comeback !
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2012, 09:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
The same can be said of the mother, yet she's on national tv.
.
I don't disagree,

-t
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Calgary
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2012, 11:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Only one living person was there and this thread isn't willing to believe him.
Are you saying that one is always innocent, as long as they leave no witnesses?
     
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 14, 2012, 10:03 AM
 
Guilty = "proof beyond a reasonable doubt."

Not guilty = "not proven to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt."

Innocence is the absence of guilt, whether proven or not. Someone who does something without witnesses or physical evidence enough to convict is not innocent, they are not guilty.

Recall the the Founding Fathers built the US Justice system to avoid wrongly convicting the innocent, so the percentages are supposed to go to the accused. (Yes, I know that doesn't always happen, but Wiskedjak is discussing a rhetorical point, right?)

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 14, 2012, 01:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Are you saying that one is always innocent, as long as they leave no witnesses?
Until proven otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt.
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 14, 2012, 05:16 PM
 
The state of Florida couldn't get a conviction in the Anthony case. They better have some serious CSI type evidence or history will be repeated.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 14, 2012, 06:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
The state of Florida couldn't get a conviction in the Anthony case. They better have some serious CSI type evidence or history will be repeated.
It's different for women.
ebuddy
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 14, 2012, 07:07 PM
 
The state of Florida can't even count votes.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 15, 2012, 01:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
It's different for women.
Anthony, and O.J. Simpson (who's obviously not a woman) got off for the same reason: prosecutors who tried to sell a scenario they didn't have the evidence to prove.
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 15, 2012, 08:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Anthony, and O.J. Simpson (who's obviously not a woman) got off for the same reason: prosecutors who tried to sell a scenario they didn't have the evidence to prove.
Okay. It's different for women... and celebrities.
ebuddy
     
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 15, 2012, 10:14 AM
 
Zimmerman claimed to have been attacked and beaten. He has no apparent physical effects from this. Claiming self defense and having lied about it prejudices his position on both self defense and "stand your ground". There is a lot about what went on in the time between the original 911 call and when Zimmerman was interviewed that is not public. This is important to the case: the public, rightly, doesn't know all the details, and the case will hinge on those details.

I will point out that "the State of Florida" does not count votes. Local counties cuount votes, and counties that had used equipment and systems that were not fully dependable were the ones that had problems. In particular, using punch card ballots requires two things for validity: voter understanding of how to use the equipment, and ballots that are made properly so that they unambiguously reflect what the voter did. And the State of Florida is very much aware that this issue is going to be BIG for quite some time, thus the special prosecutor and the time spent deliberating. I think she feels she has a very strong case or she would not have filed the charge in the first place.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 15, 2012, 03:13 PM
 
Anyone watch the original news coverage from the next day?

- They interviewed someone (behind a door) who said they saw Martin beating up Zimmerman.
- Martin's father said the screaming for help on the recording isn't his son's voice, which contradicts the mother's later claims (per OAW's Mar 26, 2012, 02:03 PM post).
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 15, 2012, 04:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Anyone watch the original news coverage from the next day?

- They interviewed someone (behind a door) who said they saw Martin beating up Zimmerman.
- Martin's father said the screaming for help on the recording isn't his son's voice, which contradicts the mother's later claims (per OAW's Mar 26, 2012, 02:03 PM post).
I just watched your link, but it's obvious that you didn't. It doesn't say *anything* about Martin's father commenting on the voice, and whoever posted it and gave it that title is an idiot.
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 15, 2012, 05:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I just watched your link, but it's obvious that you didn't. It doesn't say *anything* about Martin's father commenting on the voice, and whoever posted it and gave it that title is an idiot.
It's displayed on screen starting at 2:55 and covered in the voiceover at 3:20.
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 15, 2012, 07:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
It's displayed on screen starting at 2:55 and covered in the voiceover at 3:20.
Ah, I see it's actually two different new casts smeared together into a single video. When I watched it the first time, the video seems to end when the newscast faded to black, so I guess I closed the page at that time because I didn't see that a second newscast was coming.

So when you said "Anyone watch the original news coverage from the next day?" you really meant two different news reports from two different days?

But, I'm very cautious to accept the newscaster's story about Martin's father saying that's not his son's voice. I have never heard that before, and Martin's dad has said in other places that it was his son's voice. I'm especially skeptical because the news report is merely telling us what Matin's father said. Don't they have footage of Martin's dad saying that? Why don't they run that?

I've only see footage of Martin's dad saying it was his son's voice, and I'm not ready to believe Martin's dad changed his mind until I see footage of him saying otherwise.

EDIT: it's also interesting that this video says Martin struck Zimmerman in the face after they were on the ground, not before, and also there is no mention of Zimmerman getting his head smashed into the pavement. Whatever the real account, this news report simply looks like the work of a small town amateurs.
( Last edited by lpkmckenna; Apr 15, 2012 at 07:26 PM. )
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 15, 2012, 07:38 PM
 
If we're gonna talk about old news reports, here's an interesting one: Orlando Watch Shooting Probe Reveals Questionable Police Conduct
Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help.

The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.
Lots of strange accounts of this event.
     
OAW  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 20, 2012, 01:37 PM
 
As I stated way back on page 1 ... the kid apparently got a few good licks in during his scuffle with Mr. Zimmerman. This is how he looked when the police and EMTs arrived at the scene ...



A couple of small cuts. No stitches. Not even a trip to the hospital. Just a quick clean up on the scene. Definitely nothing that would have warranted deadly force IMO. Also, Mr. Zimmerman's bail has been set at $150K with electronic monitoring. His new attorney must have recognized that the efforts of his previous attorney's in conjunction with his family members to portray Trayvon Martin out to be some type of thug was backfiring. He now has Mr. Zimmerman taking a new tack and apologizing to Trayvon's parents in open court ....

Originally Posted by George Zimmerman
“I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son. I did not know how old he was,” Mr. Zimmerman, 28, said, speaking publicly for the first time about the Feb. 26 shooting. “I thought he was a little bit younger than I am. I did not know if he was armed or not.”
Zimmerman’s Bail Set at $150,000 in Martin Shooting - nytimes.com

I imagine that statement may be thrown back in his face later. I can certainly see the prosecutor saying something along the line of ...

"So Mr. Zimmerman, are you saying that if you realized Trayvon Martin was only 17 you would not have thought it necessary to shoot him in the chest?"

"Mr. Zimmerman if by your own admission you did not know whether or not he was armed ... on what basis did you feel justified in using deadly force?

But hey ... at least he's trying to show some semblance of remorse. We'll see how it all pans out at trial.

EDIT: Furthermore, Mr. Zimmerman is going to have to explain this major discrepancy between between his "apology" made on the witness stand and the 911 audio tapes:

911 Dispatcher: How old would you say he is?

George Zimmerman: Late teens. Um hmm. Something's wrong with him. Yep, he's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. Can you please get an officer over here? These assholes they always get away.
Now on the night of the incident Mr. Zimmerman unequivocally told the 911 dispatcher that Trayvon Martin was in his "late teens". But while he was making his so-called "apology" to the kids parents on the witness stand he claimed that he didn't know how old he was and that he thought he was just "a little bit younger than I am".

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Apr 23, 2012 at 02:37 PM. )
     
OAW  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 23, 2012, 03:03 PM
 
Looks like the first head is about to roll ....

Sanford, Florida, Police Chief Bill Lee is expected to resign Monday, 57 days after his department declined to arrest neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, according to a city official familiar with the matter.

Lee announced that he was temporarily stepping aside on March 22, a day after Sanford's city commission expressed a lack of confidence in his handling of the incident.

At the time, Sanford police were under intense pressure to arrest Zimmerman, 28, for shooting the unarmed teen-ager. Zimmerman was later charged with second-degree murder after a special prosecutor investigated the case.
Police chief in Trayvon Martin case to resign - CNN.com

OAW
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 23, 2012, 07:34 PM
 
Is Zimmerman wearing a bullet proof vest in court or does he just have a horribly fitting suit?

The apology was unwise. Regardless of what he feels, wait until the civil suit is over.

O'Mara did well at the bail hearing with the impromptu challenging of the affidavit line by line (who started the flight? cops don't know) and sometimes word by word (like confronted). The prosecution is not ready to present the case, so there was no real shot at remand.
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: I don't know anymore!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 24, 2012, 12:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Looks like the first head is about to roll ....



Police chief in Trayvon Martin case to resign - CNN.com

OAW
Did you read the article? He has been asked not to resign, while further investigations continue.
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
OAW  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 24, 2012, 01:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
Did you read the article? He has been asked not to resign, while further investigations continue.
Of course I read the article. At the time I posted the link he was set to resign. Since then circumstances have changed which is why the headline currently says "Florida city commission rejects police chief's resignation in Trayvon Martin case".

OAW
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 27, 2012, 08:00 AM
 
So Zimmerman sets up a website therealzimmerman.com to tell his side of the story and fund his defense. In fact, he even manages to collect more than $200k. His website was shut down.

While I personally think Zimmerman is shady as all get-out, I'm hoping some of our legal experts here can explain to me why Zimmerman cannot have a website up to fund a defense against the onslaught of guilt he faces from essentially everywhere else?
ebuddy
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 27, 2012, 10:44 AM
 
My first guess is his new attorneys said "unless you want us to quit too, take it down, now.

Really, guilty or innocent, what Zimmerman needs to do right now is shut the **** up.
     
OAW  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 27, 2012, 11:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
So Zimmerman sets up a website therealzimmerman.com to tell his side of the story and fund his defense. In fact, he even manages to collect more than $200k. His website was shut down.

While I personally think Zimmerman is shady as all get-out, I'm hoping some of our legal experts here can explain to me why Zimmerman cannot have a website up to fund a defense against the onslaught of guilt he faces from essentially everywhere else?
It's not that he "can't" per se. It appears his lawyer has some "concerns".

O'Mara said on CNN's "AC360" that Zimmerman told him of the donations Wednesday as they were trying to shut down his Internet presence to avoid concerns about possible impersonators and problems with his Twitter and Facebook accounts.
Which seems odd to say the least. His attorney says he's going to open up a legal defense fund for Mr. Zimmerman. But Mr. Zimmerman already had a legal defense fund. Not sure what the difference is. Perhaps a true "legal defense fund" has stipulations on how the money is spent? Whereas Mr. Zimmerman's former website was just collecting money that went into his PayPal account that could be used for any purpose? In any event, Mr.Zimmerman's failure to disclose those funds may turn out to be an issue. Possibly landing him back in jail.

The tens of thousands of dollars in donations that George Zimmerman has received are expected to be discussed at a court hearing Friday in Florida, his attorney said.
The hearing was originally scheduled to discuss issues about the unsealing of Zimmerman's criminal file, but the donations could overshadow that issue.

The attorney for Trayvon Martin's family says Zimmerman should be back in jail because during a recent bond hearing he failed to tell a judge he had $204,000.

"They tried to portray themselves as indigent that they did not have any money," said Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump. "We think the court should revoke his bond immediately, and he should be held accountable for misleading the court."


Zimmerman, who is charged with second-degree murder in the fatal shooting of unarmed 17-year-old Martin, has been given about $204,000 from supporters, his lawyer Mark O'Mara said Thursday.

The donations will be discussed at Friday's hearing, O'Mara said.

O'Mara said on CNN's "AC360" that Zimmerman told him of the donations Wednesday as they were trying to shut down his Internet presence to avoid concerns about possible impersonators and problems with his Twitter and Facebook accounts.

"He asked me what to do with his PayPal accounts, and I asked him what he was talking about," O'Mara told Anderson Cooper. "He said those were the accounts that had the money from the website he had. And there was about ... $204,000 that had come in to date."

O'Mara had said earlier this month that he believed Zimmerman had no money. "I think he's indigent for costs," he said, adding that Zimmerman's relatives had few assets.

Zimmerman, 28, was released Monday on $150,000 bail, 10% of which his family put up to secure his release.
He is accused in the February 26 death of Martin, who was African-American.

Critics have accused Zimmerman of racially profiling Martin and unjustly killing him. Zimmerman said he shot Martin in self-defense.

Asked whether knowledge of the money might have made a difference to Judge Kenneth Lester Jr., who presided at Zimmerman's bond hearing, O'Mara said, "It might have."

O'Mara continued, "I'm certainly going to disclose it to the court tomorrow -- coincidentally, we have a hearing."

Crump said Zimmerman's failure to reveal that he had the money shows that he is being dishonest.

"If his testimony at the bond hearing is any indication of what is to come, then the lying has already begun," Crump said.


O'Mara said he was prepared to "deal with any fallout," but predicted Lester would not feel misled. "I told him what I knew at the time, which was exactly what I was aware of."

The money has been placed in a secure account since O'Mara learned about it, he said, adding, "Nobody's touching it until we figure out how to handle it."

But criminal defense attorney Mark Geragos said Lester might not react benignly. "I know a lot of judges who would remand the guy back into custody immediately," he said. "If you've got more money stashed in an account and you could just pay the bond and be gone, that gives a lot of judges concern."

Though the account has been closed, O'Mara said he intends to open a legal defense fund for Zimmerman. "I've had dozens, hundreds actually, of people wanting to donate," he said.
O'Mara, who said he charges $400 per hour for family law cases, estimated Zimmerman's defense costs could reach $1 million. "You can really go through a lot of money on a case like this, with the intensity of it," he said.
Martin attorney: Zimmerman misled court about money - CNN.com

Now personally I find it hard to believe that Mr. O'Mara did not ask Mr. Zimmerman about his finances in preparation for the bond hearing. Any attorney worth his or her salt would do that. So I suspect Mr. Zimmerman chose not to mention it. There's a reason for the old saying "Never keep anything from your attorney". $200K+ in CASH ... or perhaps more accurately a LIQUID ACCOUNT ... certainly changes the flight risk calculation. Ankle bracelet notwithstanding. We shall see if there is any fallout with the judge.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Apr 27, 2012 at 11:25 AM. )
     
 
Thread Tools
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:20 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2015 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2