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Conceal Carry, the 2nd Amendment, & Vigilantism (Page 2)
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Mar 21, 2012, 09:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Kinda tells you that conceal weapon and Stand Your Ground does cause homicides to increase in Florida.
So there's an increase in the killing of people engaged in dangerous criminal activity?

And?

It looks as though every state should pass these laws. I bet overall crime goes down after a couple of years. If the chances go up that you are going to lose your life if you threaten someone else, or try to do harm to them or their property, it's probably a pretty safe bet that there will be fewer attempts to do so. These laws are not meant or designed to protect people from prosecution for murder. Only while protecting what's yours while someone else is engaged in criminal activity. The guy who killed the teen engaged in murder, not self defense. All the evidence points to that.

Getting away with murder and calling it justifiable homicide
You have absolutely no way of knowing if that's generally the case, or if just fewer people are being prosecuted who should have never been prosecuted in the first place, OR if more people feel empowered to protect themselves from real threats instead of finding themselves harmed in some way.
     
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Mar 21, 2012, 09:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Seems pretty open and shut case to me. You can't justify deadly force against someone threatening you with a bag of skittles.
Perhaps he has an allergy and thought they were peanut M&Ms.
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Mar 21, 2012, 10:19 AM
 
There looking at it wrong, charge him with assault, attempted kidnapping, and then get him for a death during a crime.
     
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Mar 21, 2012, 11:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Perhaps he has an allergy and thought they were peanut M&Ms.
The guy needs to find the "Twinkie Defense" lawyer and go with this!
     
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Mar 21, 2012, 11:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
So there's an increase in the killing of people engaged in dangerous criminal activity?
Is there anything that specifies that the killed were engaged in criminal activities or whether that activity was "dangerous"?

In the interest of fairness, we should also see the corresponding crime rates before and after this law was enacted.
     
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Mar 21, 2012, 12:35 PM
 
I haven't read the whole thread, but, for the first time since 1965, death by homicide is off the list of the top 15 causes of death in America, while gun sales are going through the roof. Black Friday of last year was a record day for NCIS background checks, and gun sales. This case has absolutely nothing to do with concealed carry, and everything to do with the imperfections of life, where there is no guarantee that you're going to make it through any particular day; IOW, you can't live in a bubble.
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Mar 21, 2012, 12:49 PM
 
^^^ Seconded.

Plus, I'd add this:

Gated communities are a weird beast. You just don't walk into a gated community, especially if you're a black teen.
This is America, you need to be mindful of stupid and racist people that might get the "wrong" idea.

-t
     
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Mar 21, 2012, 12:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
You just don't walk into a gated community, especially if you're a black teen.
This strikes me as getting in the neighborhood (pun intended) of the "dressed like you wanted to be raped" defense.
     
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Mar 21, 2012, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Why was there a "struggle?" Was the kid on the guy's property? Was he in the midst of committing a crime? Did the kid brandish a weapon?

There doesn't seem to be any justification based on the evidence, that the guy who shot the kid had any reasonable fear for his life or even his personal property. He had no business harassing a kid who hadn't actually done anything wrong, and had no business shooting an unarmed teenager.

Seems pretty open and shut case to me. You can't justify deadly force against someone threatening you with a bag of skittles.
While I agree with your assessment here, unfortunately it may not be quite so "open and shut" given the nature of the "Stand Your Ground" statute.

The tragic killing of Trayvon Martin and the initial decision by the police not to arrest George Zimmerman for that killing have focused public attention on Florida's "stand your ground" law.

According to police, Zimmerman claims self-defense, but many observers can't understand how a grown man with a gun can plausibly claim that he was forced to kill a teenager armed only with some candy.

If that's the law of self-defense in Florida (and elsewhere), these observers argue, the law needs to change.

The law of self-defense is at its core about reasonableness. If a person reasonably perceives a serious threat of harm, and uses reasonable force to meet that threat, the law justifies even deadly force, and it does so even if it turns out that the perceived threat was illusory.
How 'duty to retreat' became 'stand your ground' - CNN.com

And therein lies the crux of my uneasiness with people being allowed to carry guns in public, urban areas. Open or concealed. Because it is all too easy for a verbal confrontation to escalate into a physical confrontation with tragic consequences. That's not to say tragic consequences can't ensue from a knife or a bat or fists. But as others have said to kill someone in that manner is a more visceral, up-close-and-personal way to go about it. And a person's self-restraint has more of an opportunity to kick in. Whereas a firearm is more distant and impersonal ... and a quick pull of the trigger is all it takes. So when you have the legal right to carry a gun in a public, urban area ... along with the "Oops! My bad." defense that the "Stand Your Ground" statute affords you ... that's just a pretty dangerous combination IMO. As ghporter indicated ....

Originally Posted by ghporter
...but Zimmerman seems to have felt he was the protector of his block (from what?), and to also have irrationally felt that an unknown, dark skinned youth had to be up to no good.
Thus far ... Mr. Zimmerman has not been arrested or charged because local police were inclined to take his word for it. If he is ever charged there are plenty of people in the jury pool who have this same mentality ... so he could very well still walk because if just one made it onto the jury that individual could vote to acquit him because s/he may see a certain "reasonableness" in Mr. Zimmerman's actions based upon their own pre-conceived notions and biases.

So this is a prime example of why I say this is a dangerous combination as evidenced by witness statements ....

Cutcher said Zimmerman was confused after the shooting.

"He'd pace and go back to the body and just like -- I don't know if he was kind of 'Oh, my God, what did I do? what happened?' " she said.

Another caller, Selma Mora Lamilla, said she did not hear any altercation, but the teen cried and "whimpered" before the shooting.

She described Zimmerman as "straddling" the teen after the shooting, saying he was "on his knees on top of a body."
Outrage, protests grow over shooting of unarmed Florida teen - CNN.com



OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Mar 21, 2012 at 01:28 PM. )
     
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Mar 21, 2012, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Florida's 'Stand Your Ground' Law will probably let this scumbag get away with murder.

I guess 'Stand Your Ground' Law gives guys like Zimmerman the idea that if he has a gun, he is the law and the law protects him.
That's ok actually because this same law can be used to kill him too. All some one has to do is run into him say they felt threatened and then pop him. End of story.
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Mar 21, 2012, 01:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
So there's an increase in the killing of people engaged in dangerous criminal activity?

And?

It looks as though every state should pass these laws. I bet overall crime goes down after a couple of years. If the chances go up that you are going to lose your life if you threaten someone else, or try to do harm to them or their property, it's probably a pretty safe bet that there will be fewer attempts to do so. These laws are not meant or designed to protect people from prosecution for murder. Only while protecting what's yours while someone else is engaged in criminal activity. The guy who killed the teen engaged in murder, not self defense. All the evidence points to that.



You have absolutely no way of knowing if that's generally the case, or if just fewer people are being prosecuted who should have never been prosecuted in the first place, OR if more people feel empowered to protect themselves from real threats instead of finding themselves harmed in some way.
Flawed thinking, no "Possible" personal threat to life or liberty prevents criminal behavior because the criminal is already in a desperate situation already causing him to commit crimes. The only thing that stops crime is fixing the situation for people. All the "possible" threat to personal safety does is make the criminal more dangerous as he will have to kill his victim in fear that his victim would kill him. Longer jail sentences just means a criminal will fight that much harder with that much more force to avoid capture.
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Mar 21, 2012, 01:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Plus, I'd add this:

Gated communities are a weird beast. You just don't walk into a gated community, especially if you're a black teen.
This is America, you need to be mindful of stupid and racist people that might get the "wrong" idea.

-t
But that's just it oh reptilian one! You don't just walk into a gated community ... you either have to have the code to open the gate ... or someone has to buzz you in!! Either way ... you have a right to be there. You aren't some random guy wandering around casing the neighborhood. That's the entire freaking point of living in a gated community .... to keep people who don't have any business in the neighborhood out of the neighborhood! But apparently this little bit of common sense seems to have escaped Mr. Zimmerman.

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Mar 21, 2012, 04:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
While I agree with your assessment here, unfortunately it may not be quite so "open and shut" given the nature of the "Stand Your Ground" statute.



How 'duty to retreat' became 'stand your ground' - CNN.com

And therein lies the crux of my uneasiness with people being allowed to carry guns in public, urban areas. Open or concealed. Because it is all too easy for a verbal confrontation to escalate into a physical confrontation with tragic consequences. That's not to say tragic consequences can't ensue from a knife or a bat or fists. But as others have said to kill someone in that manner is a more visceral, up-close-and-personal way to go about it. And a person's self-restraint has more of an opportunity to kick in. Whereas a firearm is more distant and impersonal ... and a quick pull of the trigger is all it takes. So when you have the legal right to carry a gun in a public, urban area ... along with the "Oops! My bad." defense that the "Stand Your Ground" statute affords you ... that's just a pretty dangerous combination IMO. As ghporter indicated ....



Thus far ... Mr. Zimmerman has not been arrested or charged because local police were inclined to take his word for it. If he is ever charged there are plenty of people in the jury pool who have this same mentality ... so he could very well still walk because if just one made it onto the jury that individual could vote to acquit him because s/he may see a certain "reasonableness" in Mr. Zimmerman's actions based upon their own pre-conceived notions and biases.

So this is a prime example of why I say this is a dangerous combination as evidenced by witness statements ....



Outrage, protests grow over shooting of unarmed Florida teen - CNN.com



OAW
Also from that article you linked to:

The law states that a person "who is attacked" anywhere he is lawfully present has "no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm."

Importantly, a person cannot invoke this provision if he is "engaged in unlawful activity" or "initially provokes the use of force against himself." Finally, in Florida, once self-defense becomes an issue at trial, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense -- a heavy burden.
That bold it the important part. From all indications, Zimmerman is the one who "initially provokes the use of force against himself". He chased after this kid and initiated the confrontation. If that's the case, he can't rely on the stand your ground law as defense, as I have said earlier in this thread. You can't provoke a fight/altercation, start getting your ass kicked, and then kill the person you were fighting with "in self defense".
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Mar 21, 2012, 04:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
So there's an increase in the killing of people engaged in dangerous criminal activity?

And?
I thought an armed society is a polite society? Turns out after the Stand Your Ground law is passed, more people get murdered.

Number of Murders in Florida

2001 867
2002 906
2003 924
2004 946
2005 881

STAND YOUR GROUND LAW IN EFFECT

2006 1,129
2007 1,202
2008 1,168
2009 1,017
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Mar 21, 2012, 04:30 PM
 
It takes allot longer to draw a gun than it does to pull a trigger.
     
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Mar 21, 2012, 04:30 PM
 
Florida Robbery Rates

2001 32,808
2002 32,413
2003 31,512
2004 29,984
2005 30,092

2006 34,123
2007 38,112
2008 36,232
2009 30,881




Florida Burglary Rates

2001 175,671
2002 176,058
2003 170,577
2004 166,255
2005 164,777

2006 170,733
2007 181,574
2008 188,159
2009 181,658
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Mar 21, 2012, 04:32 PM
 
So after Stand Your Ground Law was passed in 2005, significant increases in murders, justifiable murders, burglary, and robbery in the state of Florida from 2006 to 2009.
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Mar 21, 2012, 04:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
So after Stand Your Ground Law was passed in 2005, significant increases in murders, justifiable murders, burglary, and robbery in the state of Florida from 2006 to 2009.
I don't see a logical reason why the law would raise burglary rates. Therefore I suspect that this is correlation without causation. Maybe 2005 or 2006 also happens to correlate with some other change that would raise crime rates in general, like gang activity, drugs of abuse, or immigration policies. Perhaps this other change even contributed to the passage of the stand your ground law in the first place.
     
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Mar 21, 2012, 05:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
I don't see a logical reason why the law would raise burglary rates. Therefore I suspect that this is correlation without causation. Maybe 2005 or 2006 also happens to correlate with some other change that would raise crime rates in general, like gang activity, drugs of abuse, or immigration policies. Perhaps this other change even contributed to the passage of the stand your ground law in the first place.
The point of the argument is that Stand Your Ground Law, not only did not reduce crime, but murders, justifiable murders, burglary, and robbery increased significantly in the state of Florida from 2006 to 2009.
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Mar 21, 2012, 05:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
I don't see a logical reason why the law would raise burglary rates. Therefore I suspect that this is correlation without causation. Maybe 2005 or 2006 also happens to correlate with some other change that would raise crime rates in general, like gang activity, drugs of abuse, or immigration policies. Perhaps this other change even contributed to the passage of the stand your ground law in the first place.
I don't think the stats show anything clear cut either way, but you'd probably want to factor it against the national average. There was also that tiny recession's effect to worry about.
     
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Mar 21, 2012, 05:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
But that's just it oh reptilian one! You don't just walk into a gated community ... you either have to have the code to open the gate ... or someone has to buzz you in!!
Uhm, yeah, NO. There ARE other ways to get into a gated community.
Your logical conclusions are (again) a fail.

Your thinking: the only way to get into a gated community is to have the code or be buzzed in.
Therefore: anyone physically in a gated community must be in there legally.

Seriously, don't you see how silly (naive) this is ?

The whole point is NOT to say that he could not have possibly been there legally, he WAS.
The point is that there are enough idiots that frown upon someone entering a gated community by foot, not by car.

Again, I'm, not making a value statement, I'm describing what many might think.

-t
     
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Mar 21, 2012, 05:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
The point of the argument is that Stand Your Ground Law, not only did not reduce crime, but murders, justifiable murders, burglary, and robbery increased significantly in the state of Florida from 2006 to 2009.
That's a stretch. Maybe all those numbers would have been even higher without the law, or maybe the law has no effect at all on anything. Burglary (non-violent) should be a control against the measures of violent crimes. If burglary bucked the trend, then that would suggest that the change in law (specific to violent crimes) was relevant. The fact that violent and non-violent rates don't differ, suggests that a factor specific to violence (like this law) is not the reason.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I don't think the stats show anything clear cut either way, but you'd probably want to factor it against the national average. There was also that tiny recession's effect to worry about.
Good points
     
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Mar 21, 2012, 05:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
I thought an armed society is a polite society? Turns out after the Stand Your Ground law is passed, more people get murdered.

Number of Murders in Florida

2001 867
2002 906
2003 924
2004 946
2005 881

STAND YOUR GROUND LAW IN EFFECT

2006 1,129
2007 1,202
2008 1,168
2009 1,017
I thought oranges were pretty and tasty? Turns out after the orange was made the official fruit of Florida, more people get murdered.

Number of Murders in Florida

2001 867
2002 906
2003 924
2004 946
2005 881

ORANGE DESIGNATED OFFICIAL FRUIT OF FLORIDA (Senate Bill No. 574)
2006 1,129
2007 1,202
2008 1,168
2009 1,017

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Mar 21, 2012, 06:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
I thought oranges were pretty and tasty? Turns out after the orange was made the official fruit of Florida, more people get murdered.

Number of Murders in Florida

2001 867
2002 906
2003 924
2004 946
2005 881

ORANGE DESIGNATED OFFICIAL FRUIT OF FLORIDA (Senate Bill No. 574)
2006 1,129
2007 1,202
2008 1,168
2009 1,017

Are those orange related deaths or gun related deaths?

Let's do an experiment.

I eat an orange and see if I die.
I shot you in the head with a gun and see if you die.
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Mar 21, 2012, 07:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Are those orange related deaths or gun related deaths?

Let's do an experiment.

I eat an orange and see if I die.
I shot you in the head with a gun and see if you die.
It's a point about causality that you still fail to understand.

You conclude, without basis, that because the Stand Your Ground Law was passed in 2005 and homicides increased in 2006 and beyond then the passing of the Stand Your Ground Law must have led to increased homicides.

Yet, there is no evidence that it was the passing of this law that led to the increased homicides. Did gun sales increase in 2006 and beyond in Florida? What was the economy like in Florida in the years preceding the passing of the law and the years after? Are people just more inclined to kill someone simply because of the Stand Your Ground Law?

I am simply pointing out another law that was passed in 2005 in Florida and making the same baseless conclusion you did, i.e., after the orange was made the official fruit of Florida, more people get murdered.

BTW, "murder" is not justifiable homicide covered by the Stand Your Ground law.

The Murder Index per 100,000 Residents in Florida is less than it was in the years preceding the Stand Your Ground Act. 5.4 in 2003 and 2004 vs. 5.2 in 2010.

Virginia doesn't have a Stand Your Ground law yet the Murder Index per 100,000 Residents in Virginia is about the same as in Florida. 4.6 (Virginia) vs. 5.2 (Florida) in 2010.

CONCLUSION: Your assumption that murders in Florida increased because of the Stand Your Ground Law passing in 2005 is completely baseless.
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Mar 21, 2012, 07:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Is there anything that specifies that the killed were engaged in criminal activities or whether that activity was "dangerous"?
The fact that they were deemed "justifiable" after an investigation. Of course, that doesn't mean that whoever did the investigating did a proper job, or that mistakes may have been made (like the current case.)
     
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Mar 21, 2012, 07:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
It's a point about causality that you still fail to understand.

You conclude, without basis, that because the Stand Your Ground Law was passed in 2005 and homicides increased in 2006 and beyond then the passing of the Stand Your Ground Law must have led to increased homicides.

Yet, there is no evidence that it was the passing of this law that led to the increased homicides. Did gun sales increase in 2006 and beyond in Florida? What was the economy like in Florida in the years preceding the passing of the law and the years after? Are people just more inclined to kill someone simply because of the Stand Your Ground Law?

I am simply pointing out another law that was passed in 2005 in Florida and making the same baseless conclusion you did, i.e., after the orange was made the official fruit of Florida, more people get murdered.

BTW, "murder" is not justifiable homicide covered by the Stand Your Ground law.

The Murder Index per 100,000 Residents in Florida is less than it was in the years preceding the Stand Your Ground Act. 5.4 in 2003 and 2004 vs. 5.2 in 2010.

Virginia doesn't have a Stand Your Ground law yet the Murder Index per 100,000 Residents in Virginia is about the same as in Florida. 4.6 (Virginia) vs. 5.2 (Florida) in 2010.

CONCLUSION: Your assumption that murders in Florida increased because of the Stand Your Ground Law passing in 2005 is completely baseless.
In case you missed it the first time:

The point of the argument is that Stand Your Ground Law, not only did not reduce crime, but murders, justifiable murders, burglary, and robbery increased significantly in the state of Florida from 2006 to 2009.
I wasn't concluding that Stand Your Ground Law cause the increase. Just pointing out pro-gun folks arguing that conceal weapons and Stand Your Ground Law will reduce homicides and lower violent crime rates, burglary, and robbery.

Turns about an armed society isn't a polite society. Turns out pro-gun rights people are wrong. Turns out you are wrong.

I was proving that pro-gun rights argument that conceal weapons will reduce crime is wrong; I wasn't trying to prove Stand Your Ground Law cause an increase in all the crimes I'm indicated.

What part don't you understand?
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Mar 21, 2012, 08:06 PM
 
I'm pro gun, I don't think it reduces homicides, or lower crime rates... Of course conceal weapons will not reduce crimes. They do offer a fighting chance to avoid injury in some situations while increasing the chance of death in others.

IE some one mugs you with a knife and you pull out a gun. Problem solved. Some one robs you with a gun, its a safe bet the best thing to do is not pull out the gun if you want to live. Either way the crime of a robbery or attempted robbery took place having zero effect on that stat for crimes.

Now when it comes to changing stats it could increase the rate for murders because if you pull out that gun against some one with a knife and kill them that's +1 to the death count. Had no gun chances are no one would have died and you would have lost your wallet. In the other example if some one robbed you at gun point if you had no gun to pull out chances are you would be alive minus a wallet. But having a gun and being stupid enough to pull it out in defense getting yourself killed is a +1 to the death count. Not pull the gun out letting the guy take your wallet then shooting him as he turns his back on you to run away also is a +1 to the death count. So the death count is almost certain to go up.
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Mar 21, 2012, 08:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
The Murder Index per 100,000 Residents in Florida is less than it was in the years preceding the Stand Your Ground Act. 5.4 in 2003 and 2004 vs. 5.2 in 2010.

Virginia doesn't have a Stand Your Ground law yet the Murder Index per 100,000 Residents in Virginia is about the same as in Florida. 4.6 (Virginia) vs. 5.2 (Florida) in 2010.
Virginia Murder rates:

2001 to 2005: 403.2 per year
2006 to 2010: 357.6 per year (11.3% decrease)

Florida Murder rates:

2001 to 2005: 907.6 per year
2006 to 2010: 1,100.6 per year (21.3% increase)
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Mar 21, 2012, 08:23 PM
 
now post the usage rate of food stamps and welfare between those states during the same periods. I bet you anything the increase in poor will have gone up more in Florida which would be a bigger indicator of why murder rates are up.
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Mar 21, 2012, 09:28 PM
 
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Mar 21, 2012, 09:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Virginia Murder rates:

2001 to 2005: 403.2 per year
2006 to 2010: 357.6 per year (11.3% decrease)

Florida Murder rates:

2001 to 2005: 907.6 per year
2006 to 2010: 1,100.6 per year (21.3% increase)
Interesting, and yet both Virginia and Florida has very gun-friendly laws and both allow conceal carry.

Now go and look at crime rates in places like Chicago and Washington, D.C. that have VERY strict gun laws and compare those rates to places with "pro-gun" laws. I'll wait...

4. States that allow registered citizens to carry concealed weapons have lower crime rates than those that don't.

True. The 31 states that have "shall issue" laws allowing private citizens to carry concealed weapons have, on average, a 24 percent lower violent crime rate, a 19 percent lower murder rate and a 39 percent lower robbery rate than states that forbid concealed weapons. In fact, the nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all right-to-carry states. Remarkably, guns are used for self-defense more than 2 million times a year, three to five times the estimated number of violent crimes committed with guns.
Gun Control: Myths and Realities | David Lampo | Cato Institute: Daily Commentary

Gun control and crime
In 1976, Washington, D.C., instituted one of the strictest gun-control laws in the country. The murder rate since that time has risen 134 percent (77.8 per 100,000 population) while the overall rate for the country has declined 2 percent. Washington, D.C., politicians find it easy to blame Virginia’s less-stringent gun laws for the D.C. murder rate. Yet Virginia Beach, Virginia’s largest city with almost 400,000 residents, has had one of the lowest rates of murder in the country — 4.1 per 100,000.

In New York City, long known for strict regulation of all types of weapons, only 19 percent of the 390 homicides in 1960 involved pistols. By 1972, this proportion had jumped to 49 percent of 1,691. In 1973, according to the New York Times, there were only 28,000 lawfully possessed handguns in the nation’s largest city, but police estimated that there were as many as 1.3 million illegal handguns there.

In 1986, Maryland banned small, affordable handguns called Saturday night specials. Within two years, Maryland’s murder rate increased by 20 percent, surpassing the national murder rate by 33 percent. Then Maryland passed a one-gun-a-month law. Yet between 1997 and 1998, 600 firearms recovered from crime scenes were traced to Maryland gun stores. Virginia, one of only two other states with a similar law, ranked third as a source of guns used by criminals in other states.

On the other hand, New Hampshire has almost no gun control and its cities are rated among the safest in the country. Across the border in Massachusetts, which has very stringent gun-control laws, cities of comparable size have two to three times as much crime as New Hampshire.

Vermont has the least restrictive gun-control law. It recognizes the right of any Vermonter who has not otherwise been prohibited from owning a firearm to carry concealed weapons without a permit or license. Yet Vermont has one of the lowest crime rates in America, ranking 49 out of 50 in all crimes and 47th in murders.

States which have passed concealed-carry laws have seen their murder rate fall by 8.5 percent, rapes by 5 percent, aggravated assaults by 7 percent and robbery by 3 percent.

Texas is a good example. In the early 1990s, Texas’s serious crime rate was 38 percent above the national average. Since then, serious crime in Texas has dropped 50 percent faster than for the nation as a whole. All this happened after passage of a concealed-carry law in 1994.
Can Gun Control Reduce Crime? Part 1
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Mar 21, 2012, 09:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
In case you missed it the first time:



I wasn't concluding that Stand Your Ground Law cause the increase. Just pointing out pro-gun folks arguing that conceal weapons and Stand Your Ground Law will reduce homicides and lower violent crime rates, burglary, and robbery.

Turns about an armed society isn't a polite society. Turns out pro-gun rights people are wrong. Turns out you are wrong.

I was proving that pro-gun rights argument that conceal weapons will reduce crime is wrong; I wasn't trying to prove Stand Your Ground Law cause an increase in all the crimes I'm indicated.

What part don't you understand?
I understand perfectly but your argument doesn't coincide with the facts. You are looking at ONE STATE and making baseless conclusions. Go do some more reading - it's pretty well established that, overall, states that allow their citizens to have guns have lower crime rates than those with strict gun control laws.
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Mar 21, 2012, 10:00 PM
 
I'd be crime correlates with income allot better than legislation.
     
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Mar 21, 2012, 10:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
I understand perfectly but your argument doesn't coincide with the facts. You are looking at ONE STATE and making baseless conclusions. Go do some more reading - it's pretty well established that, overall, states that allow their citizens to have guns have lower crime rates than those with strict gun control laws.
BS. You are contradicting yourself. You have no evidence besides random correlation of some states.

Too bad Florida doesn't fit with the pro-gun arguments, so it's being ignored.

Using your same arguments:

I suggest you do some more reading.

Gun control is well established that, overall, reduces crime.

http://clinton5.nara.gov/WH/Accompli...tyears-06.html

http://www.bradycampaign.org/legisla...hecks/bradylaw
( Last edited by hyteckit; Mar 21, 2012 at 10:24 PM. )
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Mar 21, 2012, 10:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
Interesting, and yet both Virginia and Florida has very gun-friendly laws and both allow conceal carry.

Now go and look at crime rates in places like Chicago and Washington, D.C. that have VERY strict gun laws and compare those rates to places with "pro-gun" laws. I'll wait...
Washington DC murder rates dropped 28.5%. Illinois murder rates drops 13.38%. What happened in Florida after 2005 that cause it's murder rate to increase by 21.3%?



Washington DC Murder rates:

2001 to 2005: 227.4 per year
2006 to 2010: 162.6 per year (28.5% decrease)

Illinois Murder rates:

2001 to 2005: 877.6 per year
2006 to 2010: 760.2 per year (13.38% decrease)

California Murder rates:

2001 to 2005: 519.34 per year
2006 to 2010: 507.08 per year (2.36% decrease)

Virginia Murder rates:

2001 to 2005: 403.2 per year
2006 to 2010: 357.6 per year (11.3% decrease)

Florida Murder rates:

2001 to 2005: 907.6 per year
2006 to 2010: 1,100.6 per year (21.3% increase)
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Mar 21, 2012, 11:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post

Gun control is well established that, overall, reduces crime.
That directly contradicts the facts, which are that violent crime has decreased annually for thirty years, while gun ownership has increased dramatically in the same time period. Thirty years ago, only a few states allowed citizens to carry; today only 1 doesn't, yet violent crime has decreased ever since. You're wrong! There are somewhere around 80 million American gun owners , who own 300 million guns, and gun sales are still rapidly increasing. Any one who thinks that they are going to convince that many gun owners that owning guns increases crime really doesn't understand the issue. The Brady Bunch keeps spewing the same nonsense over and over, in the hopes that they'll eventually get enough people to believe their baloney, simply due to repetition. One of the main faults with their fallacious "logic" is that they assume that people can't be trusted with weapons, and the sheer number of gun owners and the number of weapons they own clearly show that they haven't a clue. They're basically telling the American people that they're too stupid to safely own weapons, and they're actually the ones who are too stupid to realize what they're saying!
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Mar 21, 2012, 11:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
That directly contradicts the facts, which are that violent crime has decreased annually for thirty years, while gun ownership has increased dramatically in the same time period. Thirty years ago, only a few states allowed citizens to carry; today only 1 doesn't, yet violent crime has decreased ever since. You're wrong! There are somewhere around 80 million American gun owners , who own 300 million guns, and gun sales are still rapidly increasing. Any one who thinks that they are going to convince that many gun owners that owning guns increases crime really doesn't understand the issue. The Brady Bunch keeps spewing the same nonsense over and over, in the hopes that they'll eventually get enough people to believe their baloney, simply due to repetition. One of the main faults with their fallacious "logic" is that they assume that people can't be trusted with weapons, and the sheer number of gun owners and the number of weapons they own clearly show that they haven't a clue. They're basically telling the American people that they're too stupid to safely own weapons, and they're actually the ones who are too stupid to realize what they're saying!
Who said anything about banning ALL guns? Sounds like you know little about what the Brady Bill actually does.


Violent crime has decreased annually for thirty years? Really?

Facts contradicts your argument.

Violent Crime numbers:

1986 to 1993 shows an increase in violent crime. Close to an 80% increase.

1986: 9,423
1987: 10,016
1988: 11,914
1989: 12,937
1990: 14,919
1991: 14,671
1992: 16,685
1993: 16,888

After Brady Bill passed, violent crime dropped by over 40%.

1994: 15,177 <-- Brady Bill passed
1995: 14,744
1996: 13,411
1997: 10,708
1998: 8,988
1999: 8,448
2000: 8,626


Where's your facts now?
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Mar 21, 2012, 11:50 PM
 
The Brady Bill was hardly the only thing that happened at about that point in time. Mandatory sentencing with very harsh terms, specific statutes increasing sentences for using a gun (even having one on one's person) in a crime, etc. and then there's the way the economy behaved around then...

Just sayin'...

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Mar 22, 2012, 12:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Who said anything about banning ALL guns? Sounds like you know little about what the Brady Bill actually does.


Violent crime has decreased annually for thirty years? Really?

Facts contradicts your argument.

Violent Crime numbers:

1986 to 1993 shows an increase in violent crime. Close to an 80% increase.

1986: 9,423
1987: 10,016
1988: 11,914
1989: 12,937
1990: 14,919
1991: 14,671
1992: 16,685
1993: 16,888

After Brady Bill passed, violent crime dropped by over 40%.

1994: 15,177 <-- Brady Bill passed
1995: 14,744
1996: 13,411
1997: 10,708
1998: 8,988
1999: 8,448
2000: 8,626


Where's your facts now?
My facts come from the FBI; where do you get yours? They've shown a decline over the last several decades. Just a sample. You also conveniently forget the fact that gun sales have exploded, yet the opposite should be happening, according to the Brady Bunch. Kind of a dichotomy, that they can't explain (and don't really want to, as there is no reasonable explanation, except for more of the same old "guns cause crime" nonsense).

FBI — Violent Crime
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Mar 22, 2012, 12:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
My facts come from the FBI; where do you get yours? They've shown a decline over the last several decades. Just a sample. You also conveniently forget the fact that gun sales have exploded, yet the opposite should be happening, according to the Brady Bunch. Kind of a dichotomy, that they can't explain (and don't really want to, as there is no reasonable explanation, except for more of the same old "guns cause crime" nonsense).

FBI — Violent Crime
Mines are from the FBI. Your link shows a five year trend from 2006 to 2010.

Yet, murder rates in Florida increase dramatically after 2005.

Florida Murder rates:

2001 to 2005: 907.6 per year
2006 to 2010: 1,100.6 per year (21.3% increase)
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Mar 22, 2012, 01:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
My facts come from the FBI; where do you get yours? They've shown a decline over the last several decades. Just a sample. You also conveniently forget the fact that gun sales have exploded, yet the opposite should be happening, according to the Brady Bunch. Kind of a dichotomy, that they can't explain (and don't really want to, as there is no reasonable explanation, except for more of the same old "guns cause crime" nonsense).

FBI — Violent Crime
You have the gun ownership data for the last 30 years breaking down by state?
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Mar 22, 2012, 01:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Why was there a "struggle?"
I'm not sure if you're asking why did the struggle take place, or what is the evidence of a struggle.

For the first, one can presume the kid, after being chased, thought the guy was going to kick the shit out of him and defended himself.

For the latter, IIUC there are sounds of a struggle on the guy's 911 call, there are other 911 calls reporting a struggle, and the guy sustained injuries, one would imagine from a struggle.
     
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Mar 22, 2012, 01:19 AM
 
Rates of Household Firearm Ownership and Homicide Across US Regions and States, 1988–1997

Their conclusion:
Although our study cannot determine causation, we found that in areas where household firearm ownership rates were higher, a disproportionately large number of people died from homicide.

In the United States, regions and states with higher rates of firearm ownership have significantly higher homicide victimization rates.


Code:
Victim Age High Gun States Low Gun States Mortality Rate Ratio (High Gun:Low Gun) 5–14 years Gun-related homicide 302 80 3.8 Non–gun-related homicide 149 104 1.5 Total 451 184 2.5 15–24 years Gun-related homicide 5157 1539 3.4 Non–gun-related homicide 963 697 1.4 Total 6120 2236 2.8 25–34 years Gun-related homicide 4397 1078 4.1 Non–gun-related homicide 1445 920 1.6 Total 5842 1998 3.0 35–44 years Gun-related homicide 2825 495 5.8 Non–gun-related homicide 1168 684 1.7 Total 3993 1179 3.4 45–54 years Gun-related homicide 1316 264 5.0 Non–gun-related homicide 544 331 1.7 Total 1860 595 3.2
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Mar 22, 2012, 04:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
What happened in Florida after 2005 that cause it's murder rate to increase by 21.3%?
My guess: a lot of hoodlums from Louisiana relocated to Florida and other surrounding states post Katrina.
     
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Mar 22, 2012, 05:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post

Now go and look at crime rates in places like Chicago and Washington, D.C. that have VERY strict gun laws and compare those rates to places with "pro-gun" laws. I'll wait...

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the strict gun laws came into place because of the gun crime rates, and not that the strict laws created the high gun crimes. The missing part of this is what is the difference between these places that lead to high gun crimes which as a by product resulted in tough gun laws.
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Mar 22, 2012, 07:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
While I agree with your assessment here, unfortunately it may not be quite so "open and shut" given the nature of the "Stand Your Ground" statute.
It's pretty clear that the statute was intended for self defense where the victim did not initiate the conflict, as has been pointed out.

Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Flawed thinking, no "Possible" personal threat to life or liberty prevents criminal behavior because the criminal is already in a desperate situation already causing him to commit crimes.
Most criminals know that the worse you risk committing crimes is some jail time, which many have done before. You have to be on a totally other level of desperation to risk death, and you're right - FOR THOSE PEOPLE, it won't be any disincentive.
     
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Mar 22, 2012, 07:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
I thought oranges were pretty and tasty? Turns out after the orange was made the official fruit of Florida, more people get murdered.
     
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Mar 22, 2012, 08:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm not sure if you're asking why did the struggle take place, or what is the evidence of a struggle.

For the first, one can presume the kid, after being chased, thought the guy was going to kick the shit out of him and defended himself.
So the guy in question attacked the kid, then shot him? That would pretty much rule out "self defense."
     
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Mar 22, 2012, 09:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Rates of Household Firearm Ownership and Homicide Across US Regions and States, 1988–1997

Their conclusion:
Although our study cannot determine causation, we found that in areas where household firearm ownership rates were higher, a disproportionately large number of people died from homicide.
If you pair that with studies that show an overall decrease in crime, you could come to the conclusion that crime rates were reduced because there where fewer criminals living to commit a second crime. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

But, truth be told, all the statistics are meaningless. What is more important is that human being should feel that they have the right to defend themselves, even to the point of lethal force, if someone else instigated a threat to their lives or property. They shouldn't have to fear prosecution, which is what Florida's laws now protect against.

TRUE STORY: The son of a co-worker went to a party. He was attacked by two other older boys and they were beating on him. In self defense, he pulled out his pocket knife and stabbed one of his attackers in the upper thigh. His intent was to inflict damage enough so that he could escape the beating, but he hit a major artery and the other guy ended up bleeding to death. He was prosecuted and found guilty of manslaughter. The judge stated that he acted recklessly by bringing a "knife into a fistfight".

His conviction was later overturned, but he should never have been prosecuted in the first place. He was being attacked, was being beaten in the head, and acted appropriately. While the death of the person attacking him would likely increase the crime mortality numbers as quoted above, it isn't the fault of the victim and happened despite absolutely no firearms being involved.
( Last edited by stupendousman; Mar 22, 2012 at 09:37 AM. )
     
 
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