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Obama, Gay Marriage, Original Sin, Founding Fathers, Catholics, and Pearls
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May 9, 2012, 04:42 PM
 
President Obama Comes Out for Marriage Equality | Advocate.com

It's about freakin' time! At the same time, North Carolina announces new measures to ban soap and electricity.

borowitzreport.com
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May 9, 2012, 04:44 PM
 
Have fun with that, homophobic segment of the black community.
     
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May 9, 2012, 04:47 PM
 
Also, I thought he'd tip-toe around this until after the election.
     
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May 9, 2012, 04:47 PM
 
I'll guardedly rescind my "Joe Biden is an asshole" comment.

Edit: in fact, I see it as likely this is his "fault".
( Last edited by subego; May 9, 2012 at 05:14 PM. )
     
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May 9, 2012, 04:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Have fun with that, homophobic segment of the black community.
More polls are showing a majority support it, but the black community, which tends to be viewed as more religious, has been struggling with the issue. The NAACP is changing it's position as well. Unfortunately, North Carolina went backward yesterday, but that's not unexpected, given that they're part of the "Bible Belt." It will pass, eventually, and future generations will wonder what all the fuss was about.
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May 9, 2012, 08:26 PM
 
Biden's comment the other day was a deliberate testing of the waters, and today's comment by Obama is based on the public reaction. They are in campaign-development mode.
     
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May 9, 2012, 08:33 PM
 
^^^^^ That's precisely the way I see it as well.

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May 9, 2012, 09:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Biden's comment the other day was a deliberate testing of the waters, and today's comment by Obama is based on the public reaction. They are in campaign-development mode.
That's the cynical view of it, and there may be some truth in it, but it nevertheless is now on record that he supports gay marriage, and that's what counts.
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May 9, 2012, 10:52 PM
 
It doesn't have to do with a "change of heart", he's pandering to the Left to consolidate the base. It's disgusting that he's using this issue as a political stunt given how important it is to so many people.

"I was teaching my kids about the Bible, because we're devout Christian peeps, and how they should "treat others the way we would like to be treated". And, you know, it really touched my heart and made me think of all the disenfranchised queers all over the country and how I've been dissing them for years. So, here's to you homos, I want you all to have the right to be just as miserable as the rest of us, and I think you're almost as good as we are now." - Barry


No, I'm not being a bigot, it's satire. Suck it.
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May 9, 2012, 11:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Have fun with that, homophobic segment of the black community.
What evidence is there that there is a large "homophobic segment of the black community?" Are you one of those whose own prejudice compels them to label everyone who has moral difference as suffering from a mental disorder?
     
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May 9, 2012, 11:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
"I was teaching my kids about the Bible, because we're devout Christian peeps, and how they should "treat others the way we would like to be treated". And, you know, it really touched my heart and made me think of all the disenfranchised queers all over the country and how I've been dissing them for years. So, here's to you homos, I want you all to have the right to be just as miserable as the rest of us, and I think you're almost as good as we are now." - Barry
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May 9, 2012, 11:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
What evidence is there that there is a large "homophobic segment of the black community?" Are you one of those whose own prejudice compels them to label everyone who has moral difference as suffering from a mental disorder?
Are you saying that there isn't a homophobic segment of the black community? I'm fairly certain that there's a homophobic segment of every community (aside from the gay community, heh). Besides that, he didn't characterize it as "large"; that was a notable inference on your part.
     
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May 9, 2012, 11:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
What evidence is there that there is a large "homophobic segment of the black community?" Are you one of those whose own prejudice compels them to label everyone who has moral difference as suffering from a mental disorder?
In before the page 10.
     
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May 9, 2012, 11:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
What evidence is there that there is a large "homophobic segment of the black community?" Are you one of those whose own prejudice compels them to label everyone who has moral difference as suffering from a mental disorder?
Who said anything about a mental disorder? It is widely recognized that a large segment of the black community is against gay marriage, because they view themselves as deeply religious. If you knew the meaning of words, you would recognize that for one to be homophobic doesn't mean they're mentally unstable, but that they have a strong conviction against homosexuality, and a resulting distinct aversion to it. That's what I like about you; you're always putting words in other peoples' mouths, and making yourself look silly doing it.
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May 9, 2012, 11:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
Who said anything about a mental disorder? It is widely recognized that a large segment of the black community is against gay marriage, because they view themselves as deeply religious. If you knew the meaning of words, you would recognize that for one to be homophobic doesn't mean they're mentally unstable, but that they have a strong conviction against homosexuality, and a resulting distinct aversion to it. That's what I like about you; you're always putting words in other peoples' mouths, and making yourself look silly doing it.
In the past you've said that deeply religious people have a metal disorder. What's the difference?
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May 9, 2012, 11:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
What evidence is there that there is a large "homophobic segment of the black community?" Are you one of those whose own prejudice compels them to label everyone who has moral difference as suffering from a mental disorder?
Look at the percentage of blacks and their votes regarding Prop 8 in California.
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May 10, 2012, 12:01 AM
 
Looking at Obama's record after 4 years, this will only hurt the gay community. Good luck

-t
     
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May 10, 2012, 12:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
In the past you've said that deeply religious people have a metal disorder. What's the difference?
Show me where I said that. I find the notion of mythical beings preposterous, but I understand where the need to believe comes from.
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May 10, 2012, 12:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Looking at Obama's record after 4 years, this will only hurt the gay community. Good luck

-t
Wow! You are obviously one of the ones out of touch.
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May 10, 2012, 12:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
Who said anything about a mental disorder?
Phobia: Phobia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A phobia (from the Greek: φόβος, Phóbos, meaning "fear" or "morbid fear") is, when used in the context of clinical psychology, a type of anxiety disorder, usually defined as a persistent fear of an object or situation in which the sufferer commits to great lengths in avoiding, typically disproportional to the actual danger posed, often being recognized as irrational.
( Last edited by stupendousman; May 10, 2012 at 12:48 AM. )
     
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May 10, 2012, 12:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by gradient View Post
Are you saying that there isn't a homophobic segment of the black community?
I'm saying that I've seen no evidence of widespread psychological disorder in any segment of the black community. If you'd like to present evidence of such, then feel free.
     
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May 10, 2012, 12:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Rumor View Post
Look at the percentage of blacks and their votes regarding Prop 8 in California.
And that proves psychological disorder how?
     
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May 10, 2012, 12:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Except homophobia isn't an actual phobia. It was just a poorly chosen word for that concept.
     
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May 10, 2012, 01:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Except homophobia isn't an actual phobia. It was just a poorly chosen word for that concept.
Not "poorly chosen." Rather, purposeful propaganda. The blatant intellectual dishonestly is the problem, and those who continue to use the term are simply useful tools for the dishonesty in question.
     
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May 10, 2012, 02:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
I'm saying that I've seen no evidence of widespread psychological disorder in any segment of the black community. If you'd like to present evidence of such, then feel free.
At least one recent poll has indicated that nearly 50% of the community is still opposed to gay marriage. There is, of course, too much anecdotal evidence to count that is readily available. That's enough for me and, I would expect, anyone else with reasonable deduction skills to deduce that there is most certainly a homophobic segment at play. Besides that, the post you quoted didn't say anything about it being widespread, only implying that it exists.
     
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May 10, 2012, 02:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Not "poorly chosen." Rather, purposeful propaganda.
Exactly correct.

When the term was coined, people were so irrationaly frightened of homosexuals that gay sex was illegal in every state in the union. In some places, the law allowed up to life imprisonment for it.

So a term was created to reflect this medieval state of affairs.


But please, continue to school us in blatant intellectual dishonesty.
     
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May 10, 2012, 04:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Except homophobia isn't an actual phobia. It was just a poorly chosen word for that concept.
Not really - the meaning of the word has shifted slightly since it was imported from (ancient) greek. A substance (e.g. oil) can be said to be hydrophobic. That doesn't mean that the oil is really afraid of water - it means that it avoids water (doesn't mix with it).
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May 10, 2012, 07:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by gradient View Post
At least one recent poll has indicated that nearly 50% of the community is still opposed to gay marriage. There is, of course, too much anecdotal evidence to count that is readily available. That's enough for me and, I would expect, anyone else with reasonable deduction skills to deduce that there is most certainly a homophobic segment at play. Besides that, the post you quoted didn't say anything about it being widespread, only implying that it exists.
There's absolutely no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that I've ever seen that opposition in the black community is based on any kind of irrational fear caused by a mental disorder.

It's my impression that it's based on a difference of opinion in regards to moral standards.
     
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May 10, 2012, 07:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Exactly correct.

When the term was coined, people were so irrationaly frightened of homosexuals that gay sex was illegal in every state in the union. In some places, the law allowed up to life imprisonment for it.

So a term was created to reflect this medieval state of affairs.


But please, continue to school us in blatant intellectual dishonesty.
I will. Especially considering that even you admit that it's an example of clear propaganda, and not an honest definition used to illustrate an actual "phobia."
     
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May 10, 2012, 07:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Not really - the meaning of the word has shifted slightly since it was imported from (ancient) greek. A substance (e.g. oil) can be said to be hydrophobic. That doesn't mean that the oil is really afraid of water - it means that it avoids water (doesn't mix with it).
We aren't talking about substances that are incapable of fear. It's the norm to refer to inanimate objects that repel other objects as "phobic." The iPhone's glass face is one example.

I don't know of another instance were "phobia" is used in regards to people were it isn't used to define a mental disorder. There's a reason that this term has "shifted" and the motive is dishonesty. It's a labor saving device used by people having a hard time winning an argument against traditional moral values. It's much easier if they don't have to explain why their position on the issue is superior if they can just equate their opposition as having some kind of mental disorder. I'm sure that there are people who oppose homosexual behavior on the grounds that they have an irrational fear of it. I'm guessing that those people are a minority of those who do not support "gay marriage." I say that because I have no irrational fear, but oppose it, as is the case with a large number of people I know. SOME EVEN HOMOSEXUAL!

Truly, it's time to abandon this type of dishonest labeling. Especially if those who are forwarding a pro-"same sex marriage" argument want to be taken seriously by people with an above average intelligence.
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May 10, 2012, 08:39 AM
 
People, blacks and whites alike have no problem shirking Christian doctrine when it suits them. I maintain there is something more at play. Homosexuality is not as clearly understood as its rights activists would have the collective believe any more than marriage itself is viewed as a right among the collective.

The fact that a large portion of the black community does not advocate gay rights simply illustrates the fact that sexual orientation is not viewed in the same light as race or gender and their related plights of inequality do not bear enough resemblance.

Obama's move was purely political. He's not going to lose the black vote and will pick up a few more disenfranchised gay voters and motivate that bloc of funds. It was as political as his original opposition; just based on a different calculation this time around.
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May 10, 2012, 08:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Truly, it's time to abandon this type of dishonest labeling. Especially if those who are forwarding a pro-"same sex marriage" argument want to be taken seriously by people with an above average intelligence.
That should put us in the win column, as most of the people who oppose gay marriage have lower than average intelligence. They can't come up with anything objective, so they keep regurgitating all the same old tripe.
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May 10, 2012, 09:12 AM
 
I think this hurts Obama as he is now drifting more to the left. With 30+ states saying no to Gay marriage including the voters in California, its not the 50-50 as the Dems want you to believe.
     
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May 10, 2012, 09:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
That should put us in the win column, as most of the people who oppose gay marriage have lower than average intelligence. They can't come up with anything objective, so they keep regurgitating all the same old tripe.
More negative stereotyping. Just what this thread needs! Oh the irony.... (and hypocrisy)
     
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May 10, 2012, 09:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Not really - the meaning of the word has shifted slightly since it was imported from (ancient) greek. A substance (e.g. oil) can be said to be hydrophobic. That doesn't mean that the oil is really afraid of water - it means that it avoids water (doesn't mix with it).
That's not really what I meant. Phobia is the wrong word because fear isn't the actual motivating force behind anti-gay bigotry. It's ignorance, hatred, or atavistic piety (or some combination thereof).
     
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May 10, 2012, 09:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
That's not really what I meant. Phobia is the wrong word because fear isn't the actual motivating force behind anti-gay bigotry. It's ignorance, hatred, or atavistic piety (or some combination thereof).
What is the motivating force behind anti-traditional moral value bigotry? What about anti-stereotyping bigotry? Ignorance? Hatred?
     
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May 10, 2012, 09:25 AM
 
It seems a touch heavy handed to label any kind of phobia as a mental disorder. It might be technically accurate to some extent but still, its a little over the top for the majority of cases where people use the term.

I have no doubt there are people who have certain fears that can be crippling and that might justifiably be thought of as a disorder but people who get creeped out by harmless house spiders still call themselves arachnophobic without anyone lecturing them about propaganda.

Strictly speaking most of the common irrational fears can be rationalised without too much effort. Fear of flying is usually more a fear of crashing out of the sky and dying which is perfectly rational, claustrophobia is probably an instinctive evolutionary hangup, I guess the same might apply to agoraphobia to a lesser extent.
The truly irrational ones that spring to mind are triskadekaphobia and homophobia and I would classify both of those as cultural. You could argue that some homophobia can be classed as fear of being raped but gay marriage is hardly suggestive of that so I think that argument is a dead end.

If you want to call the term homophobia propaganda then we could always replace it with something more accurate like "Irrational cultural or institutional hatred or discrimination".
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May 10, 2012, 09:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
It seems a touch heavy handed to label any kind of phobia as a mental disorder.
It's a touch heavy handed to label any kind of dissent as "phobic." A "phobia" by definition is a mental disorder. The onus is on the people who are trying to misrepresent what is going on due to their own bigotry.

If you want to call the term homophobia propaganda then we could always replace it with something more accurate like "Irrational cultural or institutional hatred or discrimination".
That definition could be used equally to describe those who oppose the current definition of marriage. How about we just stop trying to play semantic games in order to label others negatively, due to our own biases and prejudices?
     
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May 10, 2012, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
What is the motivating force behind anti-traditional moral value bigotry? What about anti-stereotyping bigotry?
I'd answer your questions if they made any sense, but they don't. What the fnck is "anti-traditional moral value bigotry" supposed to mean? What is "anti-stereotyping bigotry" supposed to mean?
     
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May 10, 2012, 10:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I'd answer your questions if they made any sense, but they don't. What the fnck is "anti-traditional moral value bigotry" supposed to mean? What is "anti-stereotyping bigotry" supposed to mean?
It's the same type of prejudicial gobbledygook that was offered in the post I replied to. I agree though - trying to argue facts against people who would rather engage in semantic jousting isn't very productive.
     
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May 10, 2012, 10:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I'd answer your questions if they made any sense, but they don't. What the fnck is "anti-traditional moral value bigotry" supposed to mean? What is "anti-stereotyping bigotry" supposed to mean?
Anti-traditional moral value bigots are those whose support equal rights over 'traditional moral values'.

If you support equal voting rights by allowing Blacks and Women to vote, then that's anti-traditional moral value bigotry.

Because voting is 'traditionally' among White men and Blacks and Women aren't allowed to vote.

By supporting equal voting rights, you are declaring war on traditional voting, a traditional moral value.
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May 10, 2012, 11:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
I agree though - trying to argue facts against people who would rather engage in semantic jousting isn't very productive.
Odd, considering this technique is your raison d'etre, modus operandi, and perhaps idea of a good time?
     
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May 10, 2012, 12:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
There's absolutely no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that I've ever seen that opposition in the black community is based on any kind of irrational fear caused by a mental disorder.

It's my impression that it's based on a difference of opinion in regards to moral standards.
Nobody but you is talking about mental disorders. The statement was about homophobia, which you've already admitted in other posts in this thread isn't a mental disorder.

Homophobia - Medical Definition and More from Merriam-Webster

There is most certainly homophobia in the black community. Get over it. If you want some evidence, here's a taste:

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May 10, 2012, 12:26 PM
 
Brilliant as usual Stupendousman, you started the semantic debate and now you're saying its unproductive. Actually I sort of wish you'd arrive at this exact conclusion about your debating tactics and opinions more often.
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May 10, 2012, 01:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Anti-traditional moral value bigots are those whose support equal rights over 'traditional moral values'.

If you support equal voting rights by allowing Blacks and Women to vote, then that's anti-traditional moral value bigotry.
How is bigotry a "traditional moral value?" It did take the Republican party almost 100 years to finally get the other political parties in step with rational thinking in regards to equal rights, but that in itself was a 100 year tradition of good moral values.
( Last edited by stupendousman; May 10, 2012 at 01:21 PM. )
     
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May 10, 2012, 01:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Odd, considering this technique is your raison d'etre, modus operandi, and perhaps idea of a good time?
I don't believe that to be the case. I'm not the one who thinks that name calling and dishonest labels is the way to win a debate.
     
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May 10, 2012, 01:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by gradient View Post
Nobody but you is talking about mental disorders. The statement was about homophobia, which you've already admitted in other posts in this thread isn't a mental disorder.
Disagreeing in regards to sexual moral values is not a mental disorder. As such, applying a medical definition (which you've provided) which describes a mental disorder is wrong and dishonest. A "phobia" is a mental disorder, "homo" or otherwise. I'm quite sure there are people who disagree entirely because they have such an irrational fear. I'm guessing that's not the case with the majority of Americans who do not support "gay marriage."
     
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May 10, 2012, 01:19 PM
 
Ever since he started his reelection propaganda campaign, BHO seems to be most concerned about energizing his base. The only reason for him to be preoccupied with that task is a fear that his base won't turn out for him like they did in 2008. He fears he's on the path to losing, especially with the economy slowing down yet again.

I'm cautiously optimistic that America just may choose not to slit its own throat in November. Another four years of this foolish ideologue would be so devastating it would make it nearly impossible for the country to ever recover.

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May 10, 2012, 01:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Brilliant as usual Stupendousman, you started the semantic debate and now you're saying its unproductive. Actually I sort of wish you'd arrive at this exact conclusion about your debating tactics and opinions more often.
I refuted a claim that was made. The claim was that black people who don't support "gay marriage" do so because they suffer from a medical disorder causing irrational fear.

How that's a semantic argument, you've got me. Unless of course the standard we are supposed to use is that people can make outrageous claims and then when the facts are challenged, simply claim that the other person is unfairly judging their use of the English language when they say stuff that is pure nonsense.
     
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May 10, 2012, 01:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Ever since he started his reelection propaganda campaign, BHO seems to be most concerned about energizing his base. The only reason for him to be preoccupied with that task is a fear that his base won't turn out for him like they did in 2008. He fears he's on the path to losing, especially with the economy slowing down yet again.
How is everything you described not Politics 101?
     
 
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