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Obama, Gay Marriage, Original Sin, Founding Fathers, Catholics, and Pearls (Page 13)
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Jul 4, 2012, 11:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
It's the same as with science. If you have people veering so far off the accepted understanding of how things work, to the point where they are promoting the opposite of what all of their other peers (without any real evidence that what they are promoting is supported by evidence) believe science shows, you're going to pretty much write them off as "fringe". People who believe the moon landing is fake and that the Earth is flat are going to be pretty much written off as exceptions to the scientific norm. They aren't going to be considered as having a reasonable interpretation of the facts just because some people believe them.
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Jul 4, 2012, 01:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman
It's the same as with science. If you have people veering so far off the accepted understanding of how things work, to the point where they are promoting the opposite of what all of their other peers (without any real evidence that what they are promoting is supported by evidence) believe science shows, you're going to pretty much write them off as "fringe". People who believe the moon landing is fake and that the Earth is flat are going to be pretty much written off as exceptions to the scientific norm. They aren't going to be considered as having a reasonable interpretation of the facts just because some people believe them.
Unless the scientific consensus is that climate change and evolution is real?
     
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Jul 4, 2012, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
... or atheism?
Absolutely. No question.

If I teach my child atheism, and I'm wrong, I've potentially damned my child's soul (among other things).

This is something you would like for atheists to consider, no?
     
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Jul 4, 2012, 03:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Absolutely. No question.

If I teach my child atheism, and I'm wrong, I've potentially damned my child's soul (among other things).

This is something you would like for atheists to consider, no?
How the F do you teach atheism. Atheism is the by product of not teaching your child religious garbage. Atheism develops from a sound logical mind that was not subjected to concepts and ideas that have no basis in reality. Its a properly working mind being smart.

I like to counter, if you teach your child religion, you potentially damned that child to being a suicide bomber or going to war to fight the evil Muslims ended up dead from a pointless conflict.
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Jul 4, 2012, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Absolutely. No question.

If I teach my child atheism, and I'm wrong, I've potentially damned my child's soul (among other things).

This is something you would like for atheists to consider, no?
Then you need to cover all your bases and teach your child every religion.

Maybe start with Scientology.
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Jul 4, 2012, 03:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Then you need to cover all your bases and teach your child every religion.

Maybe start with Scientology.
Oh good reply!
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Jul 4, 2012, 04:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
How the F do you teach atheism.
The same way you teach anything else.

If your kid asks you "does God exist?" and you reply "no, absolutely not", you're teaching your kid atheism.

If the response you're formulating is something along the lines of "no, I'm teaching them the TRUTH!", then it's probably even more so, because it's obvious you have an axe to grind.
     
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Jul 4, 2012, 04:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The same way you teach anything else.

If your kid asks you "does God exist?" and you reply "no, absolutely not", you're teaching your kid atheism.

If the response you're formulating is something along the lines of "no, I'm teaching them the TRUTH!", then it's probably even more so, because it's obvious you have an axe to grind.
And what if the kid never asks does god exist, and the topic never comes up. The kid is still technically atheist with having been taught anything.
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Jul 4, 2012, 04:55 PM
 
Here's what I don't get.

There seem to be a bunch of atheists who it would appear believe we're doomed to a future dominated by religion unless you get really IN YOUR FACE about it with other people.

What are y'all so scared of? That's an honest to goodness question. Shouldn't the theists be scared of you?
     
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Jul 4, 2012, 05:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
And what if the kid never asks does god exist, and the topic never comes up. The kid is still technically atheist with having been taught anything.
I attribute more likelihood to Zeus existing.
     
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Jul 4, 2012, 06:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Here's what I don't get.

There seem to be a bunch of atheists who it would appear believe we're doomed to a future dominated by religion unless you get really IN YOUR FACE about it with other people.

What are y'all so scared of? That's an honest to goodness question. Shouldn't the theists be scared of you?
Everything changed in the Nuclear world? Before dumb asses would just slaughter each other in the name of "RELIGION" and we just made babies to replenish. Now with the push of a button this baseless belief system can actually result in the death of every one including those that don't give a damn about religion. And not to mention its actually more a response to those in your face religious a holes which I assure you easily 1000 to 1 out number pushy atheists. And because its just wrong, its child abuse its as simple as that. To purposely and willingly teach misinformation, and lies and to subject terror and blind control into a child is just not good.
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Jul 4, 2012, 10:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Everything changed in the Nuclear world? Before dumb asses would just slaughter each other in the name of "RELIGION" and we just made babies to replenish. Now with the push of a button this baseless belief system can actually result in the death of every one including those that don't give a damn about religion.
Even though someone who doesn't give a damn about religion can push the same button? And has?

Your logic has so many holes it isn't even funny.
     
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Jul 5, 2012, 12:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
Even though someone who doesn't give a damn about religion can push the same button? And has?

Your logic has so many holes it isn't even funny.
And has? So far only a Catholic is responsible for pushing the button thus far in human history but you missed the point. When Iran or some other Muslim country drops the bomb on Israel for religious regions, it will be religion again responsible for the mass death of the world as a nuclear war will be thrusted upon us.
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Jul 5, 2012, 01:29 AM
 
Harry Truman (D) was a Southern Baptist and a 33° Free Mason.
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Jul 5, 2012, 02:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
And has? So far only a Catholic is responsible for pushing the button thus far in human history but you missed the point. When Iran or some other Muslim country drops the bomb on Israel for religious regions, it will be religion again responsible for the mass death of the world as a nuclear war will be thrusted upon us.
Which you can stop by being a prick on a US Mac help forum?
     
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Jul 5, 2012, 05:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Here's what I don't get.

There seem to be a bunch of atheists who it would appear believe we're doomed to a future dominated by religion unless you get really IN YOUR FACE about it with other people.

What are y'all so scared of? That's an honest to goodness question. Shouldn't the theists be scared of you?
Theists are scared of atheists and vice versa but their reasons are very different. Theists are scared because they don't understand atheism. That same fear that drives the rest of the behaviour that scares the atheists.

I used to believe that the world was pretty much inevitably headed towards the end of religion. Having learned more about the state of religion in America I no longer see it as inevitable, though to me it remains a worthy and achievable goal.

Athen's is right though, in your face religious people outnumber outspoken atheists by a substantial number but society seems to think thats fine because its established as normal behaviour for the religious and for some reason religion remains an almost untouchable justification for all sorts of behaviour.
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Jul 5, 2012, 05:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Which you can stop by being a prick on a US Mac help forum?
Harsh because again, Athens is right.

Truman's religion is irrelevant. Everyone who paid attention to those bombs learned very quickly without explanation that they should never again be dropped on people.

I can't see anyone bar a religious extremist ever going against this, or condoning it. That includes all the gung-ho Americans who would gladly "nuke the a-rabs" given the chance as well as any muslims who would happily nuke the western world off the face of the Earth.
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Jul 5, 2012, 06:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Theists are scared of atheists and vice versa but their reasons are very different. Theists are scared because they don't understand atheism. That same fear that drives the rest of the behaviour that scares the atheists.
How exactly are theists failing to understand atheists?

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I used to believe that the world was pretty much inevitably headed towards the end of religion. Having learned more about the state of religion in America I no longer see it as inevitable, though to me it remains a worthy and achievable goal.
See? You Canadians are secretly sweet on us.

It's so cyoot you think we have that much influence.

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Athen's is right though, in your face religious people outnumber outspoken atheists by a substantial number but society seems to think thats fine because its established as normal behaviour for the religious and for some reason religion remains an almost untouchable justification for all sorts of behaviour.
There are a whole lot more religious people than atheists

Likewise, there are far more religious people who aren't in your face then are, so I don't think calling it normal is really fair.

More importantly however, American society doesn't touch them because freedom of religion is protected by the Constitution.
     
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Jul 5, 2012, 06:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Harsh because again, Athens is right.

Truman's religion is irrelevant. Everyone who paid attention to those bombs learned very quickly without explanation that they should never again be dropped on people.

I can't see anyone bar a religious extremist ever going against this, or condoning it. That includes all the gung-ho Americans who would gladly "nuke the a-rabs" given the chance as well as any muslims who would happily nuke the western world off the face of the Earth.
In the first sentence of the last paragraph, I am unsure what "this" refers to.
     
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Jul 5, 2012, 06:56 AM
 
The idea that no-one should nuke people ever again.
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Jul 5, 2012, 07:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
And has? So far only a Catholic is responsible for pushing the button thus far in human history but you missed the point. When Iran or some other Muslim country drops the bomb on Israel for religious regions, it will be religion again responsible for the mass death of the world as a nuclear war will be thrusted upon us.
The "proverbial button." The one where millions of people have been systematically slaughtered across Europe, Russia, Asia...all without the obvious crutch of an identifiable "religion".

The News Flash of the day is that people will use religion as an excuse to do horrible things...and when it's not available, they'll use some other excuse. "Pushing the button" happens with and without religion; I see no evidence to suggest that if religion was eradicated, these "bad things" would not still happen. And if that's the case, then your entire argument is a complete dud.

Religion also does much good: it's meant to give people hope and something to believe in - a "life goal" if you will. There's lots of evidence (from communist Russia, China, Vietnam, etc.) to suggest that most human beings need that sort of guidance.
     
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Jul 5, 2012, 07:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
The idea that no-one should nuke people ever again.
Then the question goes back to what is being accomplished by being in your face on a US message board. Are radical Muslims not being bitch-slapped enough in this forum?
     
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Jul 5, 2012, 07:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Unless the scientific consensus is that climate change and evolution is real?
Very few people think that the climate does not change, nor can anything evolve. Even people who don't believe that we are guaranteed to have a global warming catastrophe or that humans evolved from nothing.
     
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Jul 6, 2012, 02:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post

Which you can stop by being a prick on a US Mac help forum?
Since when has the politics part of the forum been "Mac help" And who's being a prick... want to elaborate?
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Jul 6, 2012, 02:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post

Then the question goes back to what is being accomplished by being in your face on a US message board. Are radical Muslims not being bitch-slapped enough in this forum?
I think you fail to understand how much religion plays into American politics. The US government is about as secular as Turkey's government. And currently Canada too. I would say religion plays a larger roll in US politics then religion does in Israel which is a very religious country.
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Jul 6, 2012, 02:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
I think you fail to understand how much religion plays into American politics. The US government is about as secular as Turkey's government. And currently Canada too. I would say religion plays a larger roll in US politics then religion does in Israel which is a very religious country.
I'm not underestimating the role of religion in US politics, you're overestimating the role of US politics on the religions (or lack thereof) in the rest of the world.

Do you think Europe is going to see a resurgence in religion because of us? I think it's funny I'm telling Canadians they aren't thinking globally.
     
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Jul 6, 2012, 07:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post

The "proverbial button." The one where millions of people have been systematically slaughtered across Europe, Russia, Asia...all without the obvious crutch of an identifiable "religion".

The News Flash of the day is that people will use religion as an excuse to do horrible things...and when it's not available, they'll use some other excuse. "Pushing the button" happens with and without religion; I see no evidence to suggest that if religion was eradicated, these "bad things" would not still happen. And if that's the case, then your entire argument is a complete dud.

Religion also does much good: it's meant to give people hope and something to believe in - a "life goal" if you will. There's lots of evidence (from communist Russia, China, Vietnam, etc.) to suggest that most human beings need that sort of guidance.
Kaboom! Nicely put TFS.
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Jul 6, 2012, 08:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post

Everything changed in the Nuclear world? Before dumb asses would just slaughter each other in the name of "RELIGION" and we just made babies to replenish. Now with the push of a button this baseless belief system can actually result in the death of every one including those that don't give a damn about religion. And not to mention its actually more a response to those in your face religious a holes which I assure you easily 1000 to 1 out number pushy atheists. And because its just wrong, its child abuse its as simple as that. To purposely and willingly teach misinformation, and lies and to subject terror and blind control into a child is just not good.
There's a degree of rigidity in this view that poses as much abusive potential as the staunchly religious view. The fact that you can't see this just illustrates the lack of logic behind such a supposition. It is itself, just a different religion that seeks to compete with and/or eradicate all other religions. Frankly, I'm as comfortable with your contribution to the political process as I am the most radicalized of religious elements.
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Jul 6, 2012, 08:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post

How exactly are theists failing to understand atheists?


See? You Canadians are secretly sweet on us.

It's so cyoot you think we have that much influence.

{C}
{C}There are a whole lot more religious people than atheists

Likewise, there are far more religious people who aren't in your face then are, so I don't think calling it normal is really fair.

More importantly however, American society doesn't touch them because freedom of religion is protected by the Constitution.
Its not that they don't understand what atheism is, its that they don't understand how someone can possibly not believe in a god. Its why they tend to think less of atheists than they do of other religions.

I'm not Canadian.

Its not that I think you have influence, its that if a country that is supposedly so developed can have such widespread fundamentalist lunacy like you do, then I have underestimated humanity's ability to reason. America is just an example, influence is irrelevant.

I don't mean normal as in typical or or widespread, just in the sense that people are not surprised to see it or offended by it.

You ask why atheists are scared of theists? Its because they try to influence things like education where they should have no input whatsoever and they try to tell other people how they should and should not live. Outspoken atheists are just trying to protect some of our current freedoms, earn one or two more that we should already have and prevent idiots from trying to set generations of kids back academically.
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Jul 6, 2012, 09:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post

The "proverbial button." The one where millions of people have been systematically slaughtered across Europe, Russia, Asia...all without the obvious crutch of an identifiable "religion".

The News Flash of the day is that people will use religion as an excuse to do horrible things...and when it's not available, they'll use some other excuse. "Pushing the button" happens with and without religion; I see no evidence to suggest that if religion was eradicated, these "bad things" would not still happen. And if that's the case, then your entire argument is a complete dud.

Religion also does much good: it's meant to give people hope and something to believe in - a "life goal" if you will. There's lots of evidence (from communist Russia, China, Vietnam, etc.) to suggest that most human beings need that sort of guidance.
No-one ever said that religion was necessary to commit genocide or start a war, but history shows us that it helps. A lot.

When religion isn't available, they'll pick another reason? Maybe they will. What reason do you think Truman would give you if you asked him? Most people will tell you that dropping those bombs ended the war sooner and ultimately saved many lives. Whether you agree with that in hindsight or not, its a far nobler reason to do something than "our god is the right god".

When you take away reasons for people to commit atrocities, you eventually get left with fewer choices: Lunatic, idiot, or asshole. You can argue that people will commit these crimes without religion and they will, but if you deprive them of these get-out clauses they have to face up to what they are and they will be remembered as such instead of being lauded. There are far fewer people who would defend the actions of these mad atheist dictators than there are people who would leap to defend the likes of GW Bush after he gave himself god's approval to go to war.

As for good, wouldn't it be nice if people could be nice to each other just because it was the right thing to do, instead of because they want to earn brownie points from Jesus? As far as I'm concerned, one atheist doing charity work is worth a thousand religious people who are probably just trying to make sure they get their eternal life. The atheist expects no such rewards.
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Jul 6, 2012, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post

No-one ever said that religion was necessary to commit genocide or start a war, but history shows us that it helps. A lot.

When religion isn't available, they'll pick another reason? Maybe they will. What reason do you think Truman would give you if you asked him? Most people will tell you that dropping those bombs ended the war sooner and ultimately saved many lives. Whether you agree with that in hindsight or not, its a far nobler reason to do something than "our god is the right god".

When you take away reasons for people to commit atrocities, you eventually get left with fewer choices: Lunatic, idiot, or asshole. You can argue that people will commit these crimes without religion and they will, but if you deprive them of these get-out clauses they have to face up to what they are and they will be remembered as such instead of being lauded. There are far fewer people who would defend the actions of these mad atheist dictators than there are people who would leap to defend the likes of GW Bush after he gave himself god's approval to go to war.

As for good, wouldn't it be nice if people could be nice to each other just because it was the right thing to do, instead of because they want to earn brownie points from Jesus? As far as I'm concerned, one atheist doing charity work is worth a thousand religious people who are probably just trying to make sure they get their eternal life. The atheist expects no such rewards.
1. It "helps" because it's a convenient excuse. History also shows that the vast majority of wars conducted under the guise of "religion" also had very little to do with religion either in its participants or the underlying causes. (E.g. the Crusades, in which a bunch of bloodthirsty European lunatics used the "religion" excuse to slaughter random people like cattle...in particular, Jews.)

2. History clearly shows that when religion isn't available, another excuse will be used. Nationality/ethnicity being the obvious one, of course. There are dozens (if not hundreds) of obvious and readily available examples from the last century of mass genocide committed without any obvious religious connections (perhaps the best examples, of course, coming from those regimes which "banned" religion and operated under official athiest principles - and yet who simultaneously murdered thousands or millions of people, sometimes because they were religious).

3. You've still ignored all the good that religion has brought to the world. The vast majority of landmark events in world history were conducted by persons who considered themselves to be very religious - and many of them would say that this element is what drove them to do the great things they did.
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Jul 6, 2012, 10:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
No-one ever said that religion was necessary to commit genocide or start a war, but history shows us that it helps. A lot.

When religion isn't available, they'll pick another reason? Maybe they will. What reason do you think Truman would give you if you asked him? Most people will tell you that dropping those bombs ended the war sooner and ultimately saved many lives. Whether you agree with that in hindsight or not, its a far nobler reason to do something than "our god is the right god".

When you take away reasons for people to commit atrocities, you eventually get left with fewer choices: Lunatic, idiot, or asshole. You can argue that people will commit these crimes without religion and they will, but if you deprive them of these get-out clauses they have to face up to what they are and they will be remembered as such instead of being lauded. There are far fewer people who would defend the actions of these mad atheist dictators than there are people who would leap to defend the likes of GW Bush after he gave himself god's approval to go to war.

As for good, wouldn't it be nice if people could be nice to each other just because it was the right thing to do, instead of because they want to earn brownie points from Jesus? As far as I'm concerned, one atheist doing charity work is worth a thousand religious people who are probably just trying to make sure they get their eternal life. The atheist expects no such rewards.
I am a firm believer that dropping the bomb ended the war sooner. The same ideological control and brain washing that controls religious people was also used on the Japanese with the emperor structure. It was basically like religion for the Japanese which is why they fought so hard, suicided and would have fought to the very last man standing. The biggest threat from the bomb against Japan, what ended the war, was the threat of the bomb dropping on the emperor himself (there god). Otherwise they would have continued longer. So in this case it worked both against and for the Americans in the war. Against the Americans because the Japanese would fight to the last man, for the Americans because the war ended to protect the emperor which is seen as a god.
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Jul 6, 2012, 10:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post

3.  You've still ignored all the good that religion has brought to the world.  The vast majority of landmark events in world history were conducted by persons who considered themselves to be very religious - and many of them would say that this element is what drove them to do the great things they did. 
Tom Cruise makes great movies, am I to thank Scientology for that?
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Jul 6, 2012, 10:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post

Tom Cruise makes great movies, am I to thank Scientology for that?
Errr....but your argument is that if Tom Cruise goes nuts and starts shooting people, you would blame Scientology for that.

So you only credit religion for any "bad" it creates, and not for any "good"?
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Jul 6, 2012, 11:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Errr....but your argument is that if Tom Cruise goes nuts and starts shooting people, you would blame Scientology for that.

So you only credit religion for any "bad" it creates, and not for any "good"? 
Not unless Tom said Scientology required him to murder those people then I would yes.
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Jul 6, 2012, 02:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post

1. It "helps" because it's a convenient excuse. History also shows that the vast majority of wars conducted under the guise of "religion" also had very little to do with religion either in its participants or the underlying causes. (E.g. the Crusades, in which a bunch of bloodthirsty European lunatics used the "religion" excuse to slaughter random people like cattle...in particular, Jews.)

2. History clearly shows that when religion isn't available, another excuse will be used. Nationality/ethnicity being the obvious one, of course. There are dozens (if not hundreds) of obvious and readily available examples from the last century of mass genocide committed without any obvious religious connections (perhaps the best examples, of course, coming from those regimes which "banned" religion and operated under official athiest principles - and yet who simultaneously murdered thousands or millions of people, sometimes because they were religious).

3. You've still ignored all the good that religion has brought to the world. The vast majority of landmark events in world history were conducted by persons who considered themselves to be very religious - and many of them would say that this element is what drove them to do the great things they did.
For those of you who don't know, for the most part of the 20th century, Mexico was controlled by the PRI (Institutional Revolutionary Party, ). Part of their legacy( besides the overall dismal condition of the country) is the Cristero War (1926-1929) the result of an attempt to suppress the church.
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Jul 6, 2012, 04:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Errr....but your argument is that if Tom Cruise goes nuts and starts shooting people, you would blame Scientology for that.

So you only credit religion for any "bad" it creates, and not for any "good"? 
But your version is the opposite,e that anything bad would have happened anyway with a different excuse but the good stuff is all direct ably attributable to religion. How is that any more reasonable?

The truth is that some portion of those historical atrocities will have been motivated entirely by religion, but many more will have been justified by religion or gotten away with because of religion. Sometimes people only do things because they think they can get away with them so you see how removing such a potential excuse would be beneficial.

As for the good, yes religious people have done a lot of good things from works of art to basic charity work but its not like these things cannot be achieved without religion. Something else could just as easily inspire people to be creative and I see know reason why common decency can't be enough to spur people to do charity work.

Someone claimed that religion was somehow intended to be a force for good but I disagree with this. Religion is rooted in curiosity and philosophy, attempting to answer questions and find patterns in the world we live in. It began as science. Somewhere down the line people worked out it was a control mechanism. By constructing a system that can allay peoples fears and promise them rewards, others were able to control behaviour, raise taxes and later wage wars and commit atrocities without fear of moral condemnation all thanks to their catch-all, god-powered get out clauses. Once you have that control mechanism, revenue stream and power base you want to keep it and inconvenient truths revealed by better science have been suppressed for centuries as a result to prevent religion from being undermined.
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Jul 6, 2012, 06:11 PM
 
I guess if religious people have a persecution complex anyway then it would be illogical not to persecute them
     
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Jul 7, 2012, 07:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post

Its not that they don't understand what atheism is, its that they don't understand how someone can possibly not believe in a god. Its why they tend to think less of atheists than they do of other religions.

I'm not Canadian.

Its not that I think you have influence, its that if a country that is supposedly so developed can have such widespread fundamentalist lunacy like you do, then I have underestimated humanity's ability to reason. America is just an example, influence is irrelevant.

I don't mean normal as in typical or or widespread, just in the sense that people are not surprised to see it or offended by it. 

You ask why atheists are scared of theists? Its because they try to influence things like education where they should have no input whatsoever and they try to tell other people how they should and should not live. Outspoken atheists are just trying to protect some of our current freedoms, earn one or two more that we should already have and prevent idiots from trying to set generations of kids back academically.
God freakin dammit. I'm totally sorry. I know you're not Canadian (or American), I saw the "W" in your name and thought I was talking to Wisk. Bad, sleepy post. My bad.

To address the meat of your post, you have to remember the United States is big. Really big.

Despite the fact we are one nation, there's probably more cultural difference between say, San Francisco and rural Texas, than cultural differences between any two countries in Western Europe.

Living in an urban area, "fundamentalist lunacy" is about as alien to me as it is to you. It's just not tolerated here. Likewise, our schools have actual problems, like no money and kids getting shot, not that our curriculum isn't fundamentalist enough. I think you can let yourself be a little less worried.

Most importantly however, there is a big difference between being outspoken and IN YOUR FACE.


I'm still confused on the not understanding atheists part. I think consideration of the possibility there is no god happens more often with theists than you think (though not enough IMO).
     
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Jul 7, 2012, 07:31 AM
 
I'm only going by the looks of utter bemusement I've seen "You don't believe in God? Any god? At all?"

It seems to be genuinely unthinkable to some.
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Jul 7, 2012, 07:47 AM
 
The simpleton must identify a feature of human nature and indict that feature as the incriminating factor for the distasteful actions of mankind. Ironically, there is so much evidence rendering this practice nonsensical that as the red herrings are all whittled away, the antagonist is left only with their own intolerance.

I should add in response to WAS' post, that I often mistakenly place atheists on a pedestal of sorts not unlike the expectation of integrity and chivalry among the religious; taking atheists at their word that they are interested only in that which is logical and empirical. I say mistakenly because of the amount of evidence and logic that must be ignored to maintain their position of outward hostility toward religion and the sweeping generalizations that accompany it. You will find the "lunacy" you decry is a rarity even within the walls of US fundamentalist churches and the overwhelming majority of worship here is the tepid sort you'd find a lot less intimidating in reality. Where and when this lunacy does truly express itself, most are not offended by it because it is most often expressed as a hand-up, not a backhand of judgement to the face or an illustration of the demonic hypnosis you've fashioned from your own intolerance.
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Jul 7, 2012, 07:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I'm only going by the looks of utter bemusement I've seen "You don't believe in God? Any god? At all?"
It seems to be genuinely unthinkable to some.
Ironic that you wouldn't have the capacity to acknowledge the bemusement inherent in the posts of those who share your disbelief; obligated to deriding those who do not.
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Jul 7, 2012, 08:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I'm only going by the looks of utter bemusement I've seen "You don't believe in God? Any god? At all?"
It seems to be genuinely unthinkable to some.
These don't sound like thoughtful people.
     
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Jul 7, 2012, 09:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
But your version is the opposite,e that anything bad would have happened anyway with a different excuse but the good stuff is all direct ably attributable to religion.
No, it's not. It's not at all.
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Jul 7, 2012, 02:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
You will find the "lunacy" you decry is a rarity even within the walls of US fundamentalist churches
Ha ha ha ha ha no.
     
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Jul 7, 2012, 03:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
The simpleton must identify a feature of human nature and indict that feature as the incriminating factor for the distasteful actions of mankind. Ironically, there is so much evidence rendering this practice nonsensical that as the red herrings are all whittled away, the antagonist is left only with their own intolerance.

I should add in response to WAS' post, that I often mistakenly place atheists on a pedestal of sorts not unlike the expectation of integrity and chivalry among the religious; taking atheists at their word that they are interested only in that which is logical and empirical. I say mistakenly because of the amount of evidence and logic that must be ignored to maintain their position of outward hostility toward religion and the sweeping generalizations that accompany it. You will find the "lunacy" you decry is a rarity even within the walls of US fundamentalist churches and the overwhelming majority of worship here is the tepid sort you'd find a lot less intimidating in reality. Where and when this lunacy does truly express itself, most are not offended by it because it is most often expressed as a hand-up, not a backhand of judgement to the face or an illustration of the demonic hypnosis you've fashioned from your own intolerance.   

I'm sure the majority of worship everywhere is of the more vanilla kind, my remark about lunacy refers predominantly (as ever) to creationism which seems remarkably widespread to me. It may only be a small percentage of your population, but to my mind, more than a few hundred should be depressing in a country with an education system as good as yours.

That said, if someone really wants to believe that sort of nonsense, thats their own business. I really only have a problem when they try to spread it by influencing the science curriculum or even by forcing it on their own children.
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Jul 8, 2012, 02:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
in a country with an education system as good as yours.
Not sure what country you're talking about because that ain't the US.
     
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Jul 8, 2012, 05:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Not sure what country you're talking about because that ain't the US.
I was waiting for that. Compared to the 3rd world, its pretty good.
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Jul 8, 2012, 06:08 AM
 
Our education problem is a systemic problem and not that of "Creationism" or Christians manipulating the curriculum toward what it feels are Biblical tenets.

The proof?
The US ranks 25th in Math (no bible-thumping there), 12th in Reading (no bible thumping there), and 20th in Science (a failed attempt to place a sticker in Biology textbooks reminding the student to review science critically in one US State). With so many people believing embryonic pharyngeal region skin folds are "gill slits", we've got far more problems to consider than whether or not religious zealotry and/or Creationism is destructive to education or society.
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Jul 8, 2012, 06:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I was waiting for that. Compared to the 3rd world, its pretty good.
There are some schools around here where you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference.
     
 
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