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Obama, Gay Marriage, Original Sin, Founding Fathers, Catholics, and Pearls (Page 14)
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Jul 8, 2012, 05:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I was waiting for that. Compared to the 3rd world, its pretty good.

It was good until the "School of Warm Fuzzy/Cold Prickly" teachers arrived.
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Jul 8, 2012, 05:37 AM
 
What does that even mean?
     
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Jul 8, 2012, 07:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What does that even mean?
I'm guessing he's saying (and Chongo is welcome to correct me) that our education system has more to do with political correctness/politics in not holding bad curriculum and teachers to account and/or a bizarre, lion's share focus on grades and not on actual achievement or readiness for the next grade level or future.

I'm guessing the act of juxtaposing warm-fuzzy with cold-prickly was an illustration of how divisive the issue has become politically; that anyone focused on achievement will be perceived as an "attacker of children" and the others who just want to pass everyone are "lovers of children".
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Jul 8, 2012, 08:10 AM
 
Well, again. Where I come from we have actual problems with the education system in that there's not enough money, and the system to distribute what money they have is broken. Pedagogic slap-fights are a luxury we can't afford.
     
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Jul 8, 2012, 12:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I'm guessing he's saying (and Chongo is welcome to correct me) that our education system has more to do with political correctness/politics in not holding bad curriculum and teachers to account and/or a bizarre, lion's share focus on grades and not on actual achievement or readiness for the next grade level or future.
I'm guessing the act of juxtaposing warm-fuzzy with cold-prickly was an illustration of how divisive the issue has become politically; that anyone focused on achievement will be perceived as an "attacker of children" and the others who just want to pass everyone are "lovers of children".


It's a method of teaching interpersonal relationships, meant for the lower grade levels. (participation trophies are part of it as well) I was was in 7th grade when it hit our school (1974). It didn't go over well with us and that teacher(fresh from college) was teaching 3rd grade the next year.

Second Grade Silliness

It sounds like it's based on this: Transactional Analysis: Transactions and Strokes (I'm OK, You"re OK; Games People Play)
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Jul 8, 2012, 02:08 PM
 
Even my hippy dippy Montessori grade school didn't go there.
     
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Jul 8, 2012, 03:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Well, again. Where I come from we have actual problems with the education system in that there's not enough money, and the system to distribute what money they have is broken. Pedagogic slap-fights are a luxury we can't afford.
I call hog wash on not enough money. It has never been a issue of money but politics. Funding is tied to scores. Tests are dumb downed to create a false higher success rate. If students in blown up Iraqie schools can out perform North American kids with just a decent teacher, and books then the problem is NOT money, but methods. You don't need iPads and projectors and computers and state of the art air conditioned class rooms. Books and instruction and a culture of learning is all that's needed. We lack the culture. We are easily distracted with toys, marketing, social media, advertisements targeting children, TVs, Internet, both parents working. Parents and to some degree teachers try to make it some one else s responsibility. We also can't punish or correct children any more. 50 years ago it was easy to discipline a child at school, at home and to some degree even in public. In Iraq, or Brazil or any other place with excellent test scores for the kids that do get a education it wouldn't be a capital crime for a teacher to smack a kid on the hand, or to spank them. Kids obey adults. Here, good luck trying to discipline a kid with out breaking a law.

Even religious schools are starting to find it hard to keep kids in check with the limitations on them on what they can do to discipline kids. The US also highly medicates kids, to some degree Canada is not that far behind which also affects learning.

Add into the recipe that poison we call food interfering with development, and the metabolic systems its no wonder why we are get dumber and dumber every year. Politics, Culture, Methods, Discipline, Environment is all bad.
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Jul 8, 2012, 03:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Our education problem is a systemic problem and not that of "Creationism" or Christians manipulating the curriculum toward what it feels are Biblical tenets.

The proof?
The US ranks 25th in Math (no bible-thumping there), 12th in Reading (no bible thumping there), and 20th in Science (a failed attempt to place a sticker in Biology textbooks reminding the student to review science critically in one US State). With so many people believing embryonic pharyngeal region skin folds are "gill slits", we've got far more problems to consider than whether or not religious zealotry and/or Creationism is destructive to education or society.

Now lets break it down by race and Christian faith among minorities in the US.


Blacks: ~80% are Christians, 11% proficient in Math, 13% proficient in reading

Hispanics: ~80% are Christians, 15% proficient in Math, 5% proficient in reading

Asians: ~20% are Christians, 50% proficient in Math, 41% proficient in reading
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Jul 8, 2012, 04:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Now lets break it down by race and Christian faith among minorities in the US.


Blacks: ~80% are Christians, 11% proficient in Math, 13% proficient in reading

Hispanics: ~80% are Christians, 15% proficient in Math, 5% proficient in reading

Asians: ~20% are Christians, 50% proficient in Math, 41% proficient in reading
Challenge
     
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Jul 8, 2012, 05:13 PM
 
95% of Blacks and Hispanics are consigned to inner city public schools. Almost all the Asians (Vietnamese, Thai, and Cantonese) I've encountered in Az are Catholic.
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Jul 9, 2012, 12:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Well, again. Where I come from we have actual problems with the education system in that there's not enough money, and the system to distribute what money they have is broken. Pedagogic slap-fights are a luxury we can't afford.
I don't doubt that there are schools with out of date text books, ageing equipment and jaded teachers, but you are comparing an old but functional rustbucket to a shiny modern hybrid or something. I'm comparing the old rustbucket to having to walk. Barefoot in some cases.



I think my spellcheck needs to go back to school. Earlier it tried to replace 'written' with 'writted'. Now it doesn't like 'writted'. Weird.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Jul 9, 2012, 02:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
I call hog wash on not enough money. It has never been a issue of money but politics. Funding is tied to scores.
Umm... most of our funding is tied to local property taxes.
     
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Jul 9, 2012, 02:56 AM
 
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Jul 9, 2012, 03:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I don't doubt that there are schools with out of date text books, ageing equipment and jaded teachers, but you are comparing an old but functional rustbucket to a shiny modern hybrid or something. I'm comparing the old rustbucket to having to walk. Barefoot in some cases.
I think my spellcheck needs to go back to school. Earlier it tried to replace 'written' with 'writted'. Now it doesn't like 'writted'. Weird.
Let's see how far we can stretch this analogy beyond all reasonable boundaries.

What I'm saying is the rustbucket requires too much effort just to keep running for you to futz around with retrofitting the diesel engine to run on grain alcohol.
     
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Jul 9, 2012, 03:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Well, again. Where I come from we have actual problems with the education system in that there's not enough money, and the system to distribute what money they have is broken. Pedagogic slap-fights are a luxury we can't afford.
With what Chicago is spending per student, I'd say perhaps your problems are in the inverse order you provided them. I grant you these are all symptoms of a broken system.
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Jul 9, 2012, 03:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Now lets break it down by race and Christian faith among minorities in the US.
Blacks: ~80% are Christians, 11% proficient in Math, 13% proficient in reading
Hispanics: ~80% are Christians, 15% proficient in Math, 5% proficient in reading
Asians: ~20% are Christians, 50% proficient in Math, 41% proficient in reading
Any particular reason you excluded Caucasians?

*Let me answer so the troll's subsequent logical failures and posting tactics are better understood;

It essentially destroys your argument. Performance in school is directly tied to socioeconomics; parents less available to their children and less involved in their education will manifest in lower performance. It is not due to race or creed. The problems occur when the curriculum is designed to satisfy the lowest common denominator in order to merely pass them on to the next grade level regardless of preparedness and instead of working through the socioeconomic challenge to bolster higher achievement.
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Jul 9, 2012, 03:36 AM
 
Nothing more to see here.
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Jul 9, 2012, 03:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
With what Chicago is spending per student, I'd say perhaps your problems are in the inverse order you provided them. I grant you these are all symptoms of a broken system.
Public education (or anything really) is inherently wasteful.
     
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Jul 9, 2012, 03:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Pretty sneaky sis.
     
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Jul 9, 2012, 03:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Public education (or anything really) is inherently wasteful.
ebuddy
     
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Jul 9, 2012, 05:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Public education (or anything really) is inherently wasteful.
You're just buying into simplistic statements. Waste arises from lack of oversight, and that occurs in both the public and private sectors. It's actually easier to control in the public sector, because citizens can complain and vote out people who are wasteful (they often don't, but that's another discussion). Try telling your boss in the private sector that he's wasteful, and see how long your job lasts.
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
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Jul 9, 2012, 06:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
You're just buying into simplistic statements. Waste arises from lack of oversight, and that occurs in both the public and private sectors. It's actually easier to control in the public sector, because citizens can complain and vote out people who are wasteful (they often don't, but that's another discussion). Try telling your boss in the private sector that he's wasteful, and see how long your job lasts.
"You're being simplistic! Waste is caused by this one thing!"

Gotcha.
     
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Jul 9, 2012, 06:57 AM
 
Its not just a lack of oversight, its a lack of consequences. In the private sector, someone you probably know loses money if you f**k up. S/He will come and shout at you and/or fire you or whoever is in between you and him and then they will shout at you and fire you.

In the public sector, no-one owns the money which gets lost, in fact everyone losing it thinks its partially theirs anyway and if you do get caught f**king something up, you probably won't get fired unless someone dies. There is literally nothing to inspire diligence but your own personal pride. This worked ok in the 50s but it doesn't any more.
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Jul 9, 2012, 12:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
You're just buying into simplistic statements. Waste arises from lack of oversight, and that occurs in both the public and private sectors. It's actually easier to control in the public sector, because citizens can complain and vote out people who are wasteful (they often don't, but that's another discussion). Try telling your boss in the private sector that he's wasteful, and see how long your job lasts.
Great, how do we vote out the massive waste ($60B/yr per their own IG) in Medicare?
     
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Jul 9, 2012, 01:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Any particular reason you excluded Caucasians?
*Let me answer so the troll's subsequent logical failures and posting tactics are better understood;
It essentially destroys your argument. Performance in school is directly tied to socioeconomics; parents less available to their children and less involved in their education will manifest in lower performance. It is not due to race or creed. The problems occur when the curriculum is designed to satisfy the lowest common denominator in order to merely pass them on to the next grade level regardless of preparedness and instead of working through the socioeconomic challenge to bolster higher achievement.
Because we want to analyze what effect religion has on education, so we try to eliminate other factors like socioeconomics.

Since caucasians have such a socioeconomic advantage, it wouldn't be a good comparison when trying to analyze the religion factor.

Even with socioeconomic advantage, caucasians still score lower than Asians in math and reading proficiency.

Of course socioeconomics is tied to school performance. Only conservative deny socioeconomics play a big role when it serves their argument.
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Jul 9, 2012, 01:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
95% of Blacks and Hispanics are consigned to inner city public schools. Almost all the Asians (Vietnamese, Thai, and Cantonese) I've encountered in Az are Catholic.
Hmm... is that why Arizona ranks 45 out of 50, close to dead last?

Who ranks dead last? Bible loving Mississippi.

Who ranks first? Über liberal Massachusetts.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
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June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
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Jul 9, 2012, 01:59 PM
 
Here's why Atheists do better in school than Christians.


Christians make God their priority.
Atheists make education, learning, and knowledge their priority.

Christians spend their time in Church and religious gatherings.
Atheists spend their time studying and in study groups.

Christians spend their money on church donations and church events.
Atheists spend their money books, study guides, and tutors.

Christians spend their time studying the bible and listening to sermons.
Atheists spend their studying math & science and listening to college lectures.

Christians think public schools and colleges are a place of liberal indoctrination.
Atheists think public schools and colleges are a great place to learn and gain knowledge.


Pres. Obama wants people to go to college and get educated? 'What a snob' says Christian loving Santorum.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
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June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
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Jul 9, 2012, 02:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Here's why Atheists do better in school than Christians.
Christians make God their priority.
Atheists make education, learning, and knowledge their priority.
Christians spend their time in Church and religious gatherings.
Atheists spend their time studying and in study groups.
Christians spend their money on church donations and church events.
Atheists spend their money books, study guides, and tutors.
Christians spend their time studying the bible and listening to sermons.
Atheists spend their studying math & science and listening to college lectures.
Christians think public schools and colleges are a place of liberal indoctrination.
Atheists think public schools and colleges are a great place to learn and gain knowledge.
Pres. Obama wants people to go to college and get educated? 'What a snob' says Christian loving Santorum.
I have two words which fly right in the face of your claims.

Catholic. School.
     
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Jul 9, 2012, 02:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Hmm... is that why Arizona ranks 45 out of 50, close to dead last?
Who ranks dead last? Bible loving Mississippi.
Who ranks first? Über liberal Massachusetts.
Yes, our public schools have suffered since the "Warm Fuzzy" crowd took over. The charter and parochial schools score well above average.

BTW, the first universities were founded by the Catholic church.
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Jul 9, 2012, 03:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I have two words which fly right in the face of your claims.
Catholic. School.
Most of those points don't apply so much to Catholicism. The Catholics learned a long time ago that arguing with science and reason was a ridiculous idea. It took them a fair while but they got there in the end.
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Jul 9, 2012, 04:59 PM
 
Logical failure abounds to such a degree as to leave one otherwise interested in conversation; flummoxed.

On one side of this thread derailment is pure speculation in every post and by multiple contributors all claiming atheism, an augmented intellect, and a more fervent pursuit of knowledge while apparently shameless in their failed attempts to counter the irrefutable facts and logic offered by others. Christians and otherwise.

C'mon man. Y'all have been whining about how silenced and marginalized you've been in society, you've got among the best opportunities to represent and you waste it denigrating others?

I'm guessing your ilk would be best served by your silence.
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Jul 9, 2012, 05:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Because we want to analyze what effect religion has on education, so we try to eliminate other factors like socioeconomics.
Since caucasians have such a socioeconomic advantage, it wouldn't be a good comparison when trying to analyze the religion factor.
Even with socioeconomic advantage, caucasians still score lower than Asians in math and reading proficiency.
Of course socioeconomics is tied to school performance. Only conservative deny socioeconomics play a big role when it serves their argument.
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Of course socioeconomics is tied to school performance. Only conservative deny socioeconomics play a big role when it serves their argument.
Pure troll, through and through.
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Jul 9, 2012, 05:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Pure troll, through and through.
ebuddy and his amazing logical deduction that religion has no effect on a person's ability to do well on math because religion has no effect on math.

Anyone who questions ebuddy's amazing logical deduction with facts is a troll.

How about trying to make a real logical argument ebuddy?
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Jul 9, 2012, 05:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Logical failure abounds to such a degree as to leave one otherwise interested in conversation; flummoxed.
On one side of this thread derailment is pure speculation in every post and by multiple contributors all claiming atheism, an augmented intellect, and a more fervent pursuit of knowledge while apparently shameless in their failed attempts to counter the irrefutable facts and logic offered by others. Christians and otherwise.
C'mon man. Y'all have been whining about how silenced and marginalized you've been in society, you've got among the best opportunities to represent and you waste it denigrating others?
I'm guessing your ilk would be best served by your silence.
ebuddy and his amazing logical deduction that religion has no effect on a person's ability to do well on math because religion has no effect on math.

Anyone who questions ebuddy's amazing logical deduction with facts is a troll.

How about trying to make a real logical argument ebuddy?
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
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Jul 9, 2012, 05:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I have two words which fly right in the face of your claims.
Catholic. School.
How so?

How does it counter my argument about opportunity cost and how a person spends his time and money?

If an athlete spends all his time playing sports, you think he is going to do just as well on math and reading compare to a person who spends most of his time studying math and reading books?
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
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Jul 9, 2012, 05:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post

Its not that they don't understand what atheism is, its that they don't understand how someone can possibly not believe in a god. Its why they tend to think less of atheists than they do of other religions.
BZZT! Atheism poses perhaps the most fruitful mission-field for the Christian.

I'm not Canadian.
Everyone should be, but I'm not judging you.

Its not that I think you have influence, its that if a country that is supposedly so developed can have such widespread fundamentalist lunacy like you do, then I have underestimated humanity's ability to reason. America is just an example, influence is irrelevant.
I don't mean normal as in typical or or widespread, just in the sense that people are not surprised to see it or offended by it. 
This shouldn't be so hard for you. Either it's widespread or it isn't. The reason folks are not surprised to see it or offended by it is because in a world with all kinds of crazy shit going on, people worshipping their God in a harmless manner ranks among the least of our concerns. You might be surprised to find out how alone you are in this, even in the UK.

You ask why atheists are scared of theists? Its because they try to influence things like education where they should have no input whatsoever and they try to tell other people how they should and should not live. Outspoken atheists are just trying to protect some of our current freedoms, earn one or two more that we should already have and prevent idiots from trying to set generations of kids back academically.
Do you have anything, I mean anything at all to substantiate the above? How are Christians manipulating Math? How are they manipulating the Language Arts or reading? How are they manipulating Science (and before you talk about a failed attempt in one US State to get a sticker in a science book calling for critical analysis of the material...) any more than educators who peddle the notion of gill slits in human embryos? IMO your focus is misdirected, founded on dry sand, and will only watch the continued decline of scholastic achievement while its systems increasingly divorce themselves of God and religion.

Got a problem with education? At least start with those who already supposedly think like you do. If you're failing with them, I guarantee you'll fail here.
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Jul 9, 2012, 07:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
people worshipping their God in a harmless manner ranks among the least of our concerns.
I agree. The main problem with that, however, is a difference of opinion on what constitutes "harmless". Influencing the creation of laws that impose the morals of a religion not shared by everyone affected by those laws does not constitute "harmless" to me.
     
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Jul 10, 2012, 01:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
BZZT! Atheism poses perhaps the most fruitful mission-field for the Christian.
That doesn't mean Christians aren't scared of them too.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Everyone should be, but I'm not judging you.
I take no offence at being called Canadian.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
This shouldn't be so hard for you. Either it's widespread or it isn't. The reason folks are not surprised to see it or offended by it is because in a world with all kinds of crazy shit going on, people worshipping their God in a harmless manner ranks among the least of our concerns. You might be surprised to find out how alone you are in this, even in the UK.
This isn't hard for me. I used the term 'normal', someone else interpreted it as meaning 'widespread'. The behaviour may not be widespread, but the acceptance of it on religious grounds certainly is. Also not all of the behaviour excused or mitigated is harmless.

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Do you have anything, I mean anything at all to substantiate the above? How are Christians manipulating Math? How are they manipulating the Language Arts or reading? How are they manipulating Science (and before you talk about a failed attempt in one US State to get a sticker in a science book calling for critical analysis of the material...) any more than educators who peddle the notion of gill slits in human embryos? IMO your focus is misdirected, founded on dry sand, and will only watch the continued decline of scholastic achievement while its systems increasingly divorce themselves of God and religion.
I never claimed they were manipulating maths, art or language, though I imagine it wouldn't be unfair to attribute a certain amount of artistic censorship to religion. No doubt if they got their way with science, they'd need to find some other cause to bleat on about. Perhaps they'd start a campaign to promote biblical english. Wouldn't that be fun for everyone?
BTW, it looks like they succeeded in getting those stickers in more than one state but the stickers were later removed. Its still preposterous that they weren't laughed out of the room at the first attempt.

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Got a problem with education? At least start with those who already supposedly think like you do. If you're failing with them, I guarantee you'll fail here.
I seem to be the one saying the nicest things about education. I just want the creationists to leave it alone. Truth is not decided by committee. At least not without evidence.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Jul 10, 2012, 03:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
That doesn't mean Christians aren't scared of them too.
Okay, but I was responding to what you said. You said they tend to "think less of atheists". That's not true. Granted, sane people may be concerned about atheists that express themselves as you and others have in this forum, but that's just sanity and reason at work.

This isn't hard for me. I used the term 'normal', someone else interpreted it as meaning 'widespread'. The behaviour may not be widespread, but the acceptance of it on religious grounds certainly is. Also not all of the behaviour excused or mitigated is harmless.
You don't make it look very easy. You used the word widespread. It's just not. The fact that your eyes are moving to and fro looking for pink, polka-dotted sweaters has you seeing a lot of pink, polka-dotted sweaters. This doesn't mean they're widespread, it means you have a peculiar hangup with them.

The behaviors you're decrying were not even widespread enough to get stickers in textbooks that had nothing to do with God or Jesus or any Biblical tenet. Your fears are by definition; irrational, phobic. The academic disciplines in which the US struggles most to compete simply do not correlate to the prevailing creed of the country. I've already cited a common failure in the teaching of science through zealotry of another kind and the fact that you breezed right on through with nary a mention only reaffirms to me that scholastic integrity is the least of your concerns here.

I never claimed they were manipulating maths, art or language, though I imagine it wouldn't be unfair to attribute a certain amount of artistic censorship to religion. No doubt if they got their way with science, they'd need to find some other cause to bleat on about. Perhaps they'd start a campaign to promote biblical english. Wouldn't that be fun for everyone?
Right, because of course piss-Christ is a lot more profound and "fun" than any religious work of antiquity. Again, the academic disciplines in which the US struggles most are only falling farther behind while the systems responsible increasingly divorce themselves of God and religion. Shall I attribute this failure to godlessness and conclude that the systemic ineptitude is directly tied to atheist philosophy?

BTW, it looks like they succeeded in getting those stickers in more than one state but the stickers were later removed. Its still preposterous that they weren't laughed out of the room at the first attempt.
I seem to be the one saying the nicest things about education. I just want the creationists to leave it alone. Truth is not decided by committee. At least not without evidence.
The state of our education is no laughing matter. With zealots of another kind trying to bastardize curriculum, we may eventually need to reconsider means of reminding students to critically analyze what they're being taught. i.e. they didn't start it. "Creationists" are no more capable of manipulating students than atheists.
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Jul 10, 2012, 03:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
I agree. The main problem with that, however, is a difference of opinion on what constitutes "harmless". Influencing the creation of laws that impose the morals of a religion not shared by everyone affected by those laws does not constitute "harmless" to me.
Perhaps so, but you'd be hard-pressed in A) citing laws directly attributed to a creed; and B) differentiating "religious" moral imposition from any other ideologue at work.
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Jul 10, 2012, 03:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Great, how do we vote out the massive waste ($60B/yr per their own IG) in Medicare?
You leave your pesky logic and facts out of this! We're about demagoguery here.
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Jul 10, 2012, 04:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Perhaps so, but you'd be hard-pressed in A) citing laws directly attributed to a creed; and B) differentiating "religious" moral imposition from any other ideologue at work.
Only because those who agree with these laws effectively cover their ears when examples are cited.
     
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Jul 10, 2012, 08:55 AM
 
Who ranks first? Über liberal Massachusetts.
Not that I'm in the habit of hitching my wagon to hyteckit I'd like to expand on this a bit.

"Taxachusetts" with its health care set up by the Conservative's new poster boy, ol' Mitt Romney, is doing incredibly well in this time of economic strife. Low rates of obesity, 98% covered under health care, 3rd best economy in the Nation, explosive growth in medical and tech sectors, and all this with allowing teh gays to marry a full 6 years ago.

So what's the deal ultra-conservatives? Is my state some sort of liberal anomaly, or does pushing good education and health of a population actually pay off in the long run?

Of course I'm not actually asking that question sincerely because I already know the answer. The answer is yes. Yes, educating your population with a well-funded public school system lets said people make better decisions and rely on government less. Yes, allowing all tax paying citizens the same rights like marriage cultivates an atmosphere of love for your fellow man. Yes, pushing the teaching of evolution and the scientific method over superstition allows industry to blossom and new generations of critical thinkers to lead us into the future. Yes, liberal policies can indeed work, and if people hate how high taxes are here I guess they are free to move to any number of other states wallowing in debt.

The main thing that annoys the shit out of me about Romney is how he has to distance himself from the overwhelming successes of my state in order to fit in with the blind rhetoric of the Republican party.

Slightly back OT. Anyone, and by that I mean everyone, who opposes equal rights for gays are bigoted, and in time will be seen in no different light than those who pushed segregation and other oppressions of American citizens in the past. Spin it all you like, mealy-mouth whatever excuses you can muster, but denying gays the right to marry is rooted in your own bigotry and ignorance, and nothing else.
     
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Jul 10, 2012, 10:08 AM
 
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Jul 10, 2012, 10:42 AM
 
Funny I never mentioned anything about forcing churches to perform gay marriages.

More binary thinking. Either gays can't marry at all or they'll HAVE to get married EVERYWHERE!

As for the photo hut story I'm not really sure what your point is, but then again, this whole 'debate' is full of bullshit and diversionary tactics up the wazoo so it doesn't surprise me.
     
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Jul 10, 2012, 03:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
ebuddy and his amazing logical deduction that religion has no effect on a person's ability to do well on math because religion has no effect on math.
Anyone who questions ebuddy's amazing logical deduction with facts is a troll.
How about trying to make a real logical argument ebuddy?
I really don't see the correlation with religion and learning outside of history and sciences. The most educated people in this world have religious backgrounds for some and non for others. The one place I can see religion actually affecting education is unqualified people who have no business being a teacher or running a school getting the job because of religious background over a qualified non religious person. That would have a direct effect.

Social economics is the largest factor followed by political and cultural factors which affects education the most. Religions fame to claim is the ability to justify almost any horrible act against another human being.
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Jul 10, 2012, 06:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Who's forcing who's views on other people?
Gay Danish couples win right to marry in church
First: Denmark is not the US.
Second: From the article, it sounds like a majority of the Danish population was in favour of this
Third: I actually agree with you: Churches should not be forced to do things that go against their religion.


Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I think this is a different issue entirely. Can a Christian coffee shop owner refuse to serve a gay couple on the grounds that doing so "would cause it to disobey God and Biblical teachings"?
     
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Jul 11, 2012, 02:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Who ranks first? Über liberal Massachusetts.
Not that I'm in the habit of hitching my wagon to hyteckit I'd like to expand on this a bit.

"Taxachusetts" with its health care set up by the Conservative's new poster boy, ol' Mitt Romney, is doing incredibly well in this time of economic strife.  Low rates of obesity, 98% covered under health care, 3rd best economy in the Nation, explosive growth in medical and tech sectors, and all this with allowing teh gays to marry a full 6 years ago.

So what's the deal ultra-conservatives?  Is my state some sort of liberal anomaly, or does pushing good education and health of a population actually pay off in the long run?

Of course I'm not actually asking that question sincerely because I already know the answer.  The answer is yes.  Yes, educating your population with a well-funded public school system lets said people make better decisions and rely on government less.  Yes, allowing all tax paying citizens the same rights like marriage cultivates an atmosphere of love for your fellow man.  Yes, pushing the teaching of evolution and the scientific method over superstition allows industry to blossom and new generations of critical thinkers to lead us into the future.  Yes, liberal policies can indeed work, and if people hate how high taxes are here I guess they are free to move to any number of other states wallowing in debt.

The main thing that annoys the shit out of me about Romney is how he has to distance himself from the overwhelming successes of my state in order to fit in with the blind rhetoric of the Republican party.

Slightly back OT.  Anyone, and by that I mean everyone, who opposes equal rights for gays are bigoted, and in time will be seen in no different light than those who pushed segregation and other oppressions of American citizens in the past.  Spin it all you like, mealy-mouth whatever excuses you can muster, but denying gays the right to marry is rooted in your own bigotry and ignorance, and nothing else.
Great post. As someone who follows US politics only incidentally, I have wondered for a while if there was some terrible information about Massachusetts I wasn't aware of - because when I was there last year, the people I met with were very, very positive about the continued success of the state. But from many of the negative comments around here, you'd think it was a wallowing shithole or something.
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Jul 11, 2012, 03:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
serve a gay couple on the grounds
You just need to moisten the grounds. Throwing a whole gay couple in there is overkill.
     
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Jul 11, 2012, 04:02 AM
 
If the question is, do you want cost controls on health insurance to save you money and government/employer subsidies to pay an increasing share of your premium so you'll pay less? The answer will invariably be - yes! Have the Massachusetts health care measures helped control costs of health care? No and there is every indication that the provisions are unsustainable long-term. If all you wanted in Massachusetts was health care insurance reform, you got it. If all you wanted was a piece of paper claiming you have coverage for your overwhelming majority, white-bred populace, you now have it. Congrats. Except... as Massachusetts' reforms attract many more of the 20% of uninsureds nationwide comprised mostly of non-citizens, we'll see how long this experiment will hold out. But make no mistake, health care reform in Massachusetts is an experiment that few if any believe has any real chance of success at a nationwide level. Of course, the number of uninsureds began @ 7%, then dropped to 2.5% and is now back up to 3% assuming people aren't shirking their penalties having found means of claiming coverage they don't have.

sek929; do you have any information to substantiate the explosive growth in medical and tech sectors?

Here's an excerpt from your AG (A Democratic admin) on the trends in rising health care costs in Massachusetts; The median annual premium for family plans jumped 10% from 2007 to 2009 to $14,300. For small businesses, the increase was 12%. In 2006, the state spent around $1 billion on Medicaid, subsidies for medium-to-lower earners, and other health-care programs. Today, the figure is $1.75 billion. The federal government absorbed half of the increase. The report essentially concludes that there is no way of controlling health care costs in Massachusetts. So... should I take your gleaming examples of success in Massachusetts as a great big friggin' thanks to the US taxpayer? Yeah, you're welcome. In Massachusetts, a family earning $33,000 pays no premium at all under Commonwealth Care. But if their pay goes to $46,000, they're obligated to contribute about $2,400. That's an effective tax rate of 18.5% on that $13,000 raise. A pay increase of $44,000 to $46,000 is mostly erased by higher premiums alone. I'd like to see what long-term affect this will have on stagnant wages and unemployment in Massachusetts. Considering of course the fact that the State has nowhere near the same socioeconomic demographics as the rest of the country.

As to the rest of your post; sure... gay marriage allows gays to get married. Congrats on thread relevance as the sound derailing by your atheist ilk is what diverted the entire discussion into the abyss of phobia and stupidity to begin with.

Teaching evolution is fine as long as you don't have a bunch of dumbasses running around talking about embryonic gill slits. After all, any interest in the "scientific method" would have to acknowledge the fact that this bs was debunked in the early 1900s. i.e. there are zealots and morons on all sides of the world view spectrum with their textbook stickers and evo-zealous dogmas. Your focus on "teaching evolution" is asinine. As if there is some creationism at play in the table of elements or any other scientific discipline. BTW, we'd do well to look at our performance in Math as well which of course has zero to do with the religious influence.

So... your welcome for subsidizing your health care and congrats on the gay marriage thing.
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