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Stay Classy, PA: Voter Suppression 2012, 2013, 2014... and so on. (Page 4)
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Aug 29, 2012, 11:44 AM
 
I thought it wast just Holder's ballot.

[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5p70YbRiPw[/VIDEO]
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Aug 29, 2012, 11:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by kimosABE View Post
Do you encourage or support or just look the other way when it comes to voter fraud?
If you answer the above question in the negative, tell me what you would do to address the problem of voter fraud?
You could ask the same question about voter suppression.

I feel the same way I do about the law. Denying a citizen their vote is worse than allowing a fraudulent one.
     
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Aug 29, 2012, 11:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
^^^^^^^^
You haven't participated in this thread heretofore and the fact that you even asked that question shows you didn't bother to read what's been posted thus far. So in the interest of not wasting time and re-treading the same ground ...
Pennsylvania admits it: no voter fraud problem - WashingtonPost.com
OAW
How kind of you to notice my lack of participation in this thread and double thanks for making up for my lack by providing such a succinct summary of the issue...from your viewpoint.

A viewpoint I don't yet know is either sincere or slavishly adopted.
     
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Aug 29, 2012, 11:47 AM
 
Well OAW, ask and you shall receive, apparently.

Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I thought it wast just Holder's ballot.
[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5p70YbRiPw[/VIDEO]
So, what does this have to do with the laws being challenged in Ohio, PA, SC, Texas, and Florida?
     
OAW
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Aug 29, 2012, 12:11 PM
 
It has to do with this retarded notion on the right that voter impersonation fraud is somehow an issue. So Chongo shows some silly video showing how some guy can walk into a polling place and pretend to be AG Eric Holder. And guess what? Perhaps in some states that's the case. Definitely not in my state. I would have had to show a photo ID, my voter registration card, or two forms of non-photo ID with an address matching what's on the voter registration list. To my knowledge, most states operate that way. In any event, even if that's not the case it's still not an issue! Why? Because what the video does NOT show you is this guy actually casting a vote as Eric Holder. It seeks to suggest that he could have. And I suppose he could. But somehow he had sense enough not to sign his name on an official document and do that because he would have been breaking the law and subject to severe penalty. Most states operate under what is essentially an "signature based sworn oath system subject to the penalties of perjury". Because who would actually do something as incredibly brain dead as impersonating someone else at the polling place? When you are subject to 5 years in prison and a $10,000 fine? Just to jack somebody for one freaking vote? When such a crime would be undoubtedly be exposed as soon as the person whose ballot you took shows up to vote and finds someone else has forged their name on the voter list? ESPECIALLY when polling places have security cameras in place? But instead of freaking out over remote possibilities ... how about we discuss actual probabilities of this happening instead?

Fraud by individual voters is both irrational and extremely rare. Most citizens who take the time to vote offer their legitimate signatures and sworn oaths with the gravitas that this hard-won civic right deserves. Even for the few who view voting merely as a means to an end, however, voter fraud is a singularly foolish way to attempt to win an election. Each act of voter fraud risks five years in prison and a $10,000 fine - but yields at most one incremental vote. The single vote is simply not worth the price.

Because voter fraud is essentially irrational, it is not surprising that no credible evidence suggests a voter fraud epidemic. There is no documented wave or trend of individuals voting multiple times, voting as someone else, or voting despite knowing that they are ineligible. Indeed, evidence from the microscopically scrutinized 2004 gubernatorial election in Washington State actually reveals just the opposite: though voter fraud does happen, it happens approximately 0.0009% of the time. The similarly closely-analyzed 2004 election in Ohio revealed a voter fraud rate of 0.00004%. National Weather Service data shows that Americans are struck and killed by lightning about as often.
Policy Brief on the Truth About “Voter Fraud” - Brennan Center for Justice

What did the State of PA stipulate to in open court?

The state signed a stipulation agreement with lawyers for the plaintiffs which acknowledges there “have been no investigations or prosecutions of in-person voter fraud in Pennsylvania; and the parties do not have direct personal knowledge of any such investigations or prosecutions in other states.”
So as I said at the very beginning of the thread. At best this is a solution in search of a problem. But when you consider the coordinated efforts by GOP controlled states to pass such legislation in light of the fact that thousands of more legitimate, likely Democratic voters will be disenfranchised than illegitimate voters prevented from committing a theoretical, but virtually non-existent crime ... well then at worst it is what it is. Voter suppression. All day ... everyday.


OAW
     
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Aug 29, 2012, 12:21 PM
 
If voter ids are meant to keep illegals from voting, well illegals have no difficulty getting fake ids and social security numbers, right? Didn't we discuss this at one point, in this thread or another?

Either way, this doesn't excuse the blatant redistricting and voting hours restrictions.
     
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Aug 29, 2012, 12:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
If voter ids are meant to keep illegals from voting, well illegals have no difficulty getting fake ids and social security numbers, right? Didn't we discuss this at one point, in this thread or another?
Either way, this doesn't excuse the blatant redistricting and voting hours restrictions.
As I mentioned earlier, all photo ID requirements do is supposedly ensure that you are the person listed on the voter registration list. It does NOT ensure that the person on the voter registration list is actually eligible to vote. It's a fundamentally separate issue that our conservative counterpoints insist upon conflating.

OAW
     
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Aug 29, 2012, 12:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
As I mentioned earlier, all photo ID requirements do is supposedly ensure that you are the person listed on the voter registration list. It does NOT ensure that the person on the voter registration list is actually eligible to vote. It's a fundamentally separate issue that our conservative counterpoints insist upon conflating.
OAW
I want to point out again, it's a slick move. It's not as intuitive as it seems.

I think part of it is most people don't commit voter fraud. That's really what this law is combating. How people who aren't criminals imagine they would commit crimes.
     
OAW
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Aug 29, 2012, 12:49 PM
 
Notice how on the video they show AG Eric Holder saying ....

"But there is no proof that our elections are marred by in person voter fraud."
Followed by the slickly produced video saying ....

Ballot offered in name of
Eric H. Holder, Jr
US Attorney General
Ward #3
It said offered ... it did not say cast. Which only serves to reiterate AG Holder's point.

OAW

PS: And isn't Project Veritas run by that sniveling little weasel James O'Keefe? The guy who is repeatedly cited for "selective" and "deceptive" editing in his so-called expose videos? The same guy who can't even attend the RNC because he's on probation for trying to enter a federal building under false pretenses in order to tap the phone of Senator Mary Landrieu? Yeah. That guy.
     
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Aug 30, 2012, 09:34 AM
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...430_story.html

A federal court on Thursday blocked a controversial new voter ID law in Texas, ruling that the state failed to show that the law would not harm the voting rights of minorities.

The three-judge panel in the historic case said that evidence also showed that costs of obtaining a voter ID would fall most heavily on poor African Americans and Hispanics in Texas.
The challenges are part of an escalating national legal battle over voter ID laws that has become more intense because it is an election year. Eight states passed voter ID laws last year, and critics say the new statutes could hurt turnout among minority voters and others, many of whom helped elect Obama in 2008. But supporters of the measures — seven of which were signed by Republican governors and one by an independent — say that requiring voters to show specific photo IDs would prevent voter fraud.
     
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Aug 31, 2012, 10:48 AM
 
This week keeps delivering.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/08/31/...-early-voting/

U.S. District Judge Peter Economus said plaintiffs ”have a constitutionally protected right to participate in the 2012 election—and all elections—on an equal basis with all Ohio voters.”

He went on,
This Court finds that “in-person early voting” is a voting term that had included the right to vote in person through the Monday before Election Day, and, now, thousands of voters who would have voted during those three days will not be able to exercise their right to cast a vote in person. Plaintiffs submit statistical studies to support their assertion that low-income and minority voters are disproportionately affected by the elimination of those voting days. Therefore, the injury to Plaintiffs is significant and weighs heavily in their favor.
Question for those that would support all these initiatives: Have these 5 or more judges all been wrong in their conclusions? How so?



I also think it's worth noting the only ruling that blew my mind (PA) was made by a state judge, rather than Federal.
     
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Aug 31, 2012, 05:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I thought it wast just Holder's ballot.
How does requiring a photo ID prevent this from happening?

Can't he just get a fake ID with the name Eric Holder on it?
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
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Sep 4, 2012, 09:16 AM
 
Well, after a brief flurry of conservative outrage no one decided to explain why these laws or needed or aren't discriminatory (or condemn them). Guess that's an election year for you.

---

In other news: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...nation/261760/

Beeney: Ms. Andino, just to follow up a little bit on some of the Court's questions. If my reasonable impediment is I have no transportation to the county seat, I have to get to the county seat to defend that, right?

Andino: Not unless it's challenged.

Beeney: Well, if it's challenged, the only way I can defend it is to get to the county seat, which might suggest to a county commissioner that a lack of transportation reasonable impediment is false, since you're standing in front of me trying to defend your ballot.

Andino: Yes.

Beeney: Now, again, just to follow up on a couple of the Court's questions. At the polls there are people representing the candidates, right?

Andino: Yes, we have poll watchers.

Beeney: And so if I was a poll watcher, I get to watch what goes on at the table, the check-in table where all this is happening, right?

Andino: Yes.

Beeney: And if I wanted to, for whatever reason I may have, I could write down the name of every African American who voted by reasonable impediment and show up on Friday and challenge every one of those if I wanted to, right?

Andino: Yes.

Beeney: And there's no way that our hypothetical African American voter who's getting challenged would have any idea in the world that that's what's happening, is that correct?

Andino: That's correct.

Kollar-Kotelly: So the poll watchers have access to the names?

Andino: The poll watchers are there to watch the process, and they can come over and look at the voter registration list and the poll list.
Registered voters who cannot travel to get their new identification cards in the first place, and who, when voting, declare they could not do so, then have to try to travel to the county seat to defend their vote after receiving notice in the mail between Tuesday and Thursday that their votes may or may not be challenged. Judge Kollar-Kotelly's point about these restrictions being in place today is instructive -- there will be far more "provisional ballots" under the new law than there are now.

The new law practically begs partisan poll watchers to challenge every such provisional ballot so as to place the burden on the registered voter to twice prove his or her voting rights.
     
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Sep 4, 2012, 09:48 AM
 
This is repulsive. I *have* a car and shlepping out to the county seat to prove my rights would be an incredible PITA.
     
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Sep 5, 2012, 06:57 AM
 
Hey, I get to post something positive!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...d010_blog.html

Justice officials found that the law, which closes a provision that had allowed Virginians to vote without identification but also expands the types of ID accepted at the polls, does not violate the Voting Rights Act, McDonnell said in a statement.

“The legislation I signed into law is a practical and reasonable step to make our elections more secure while also ensuring access to the ballot box for all qualified voters,” McDonnell said. “It is welcome news that DOJ has recognized the compliance of this legislation with the Voting Rights Act.”
Virginia’s law is more moderate than many of those pushed elsewhere. It does not require that voters present a government-issued photo ID. But it does close a provision that had allowed voters to cast ballots without showing identificati
Until the law was changed this year, voters had to present a voter registration card, Social Security card, driver’s license, government-issued identification or photo ID from a private workplace. The new law expands that list to also include utility bills, paychecks, bank statements, government checks or a current Virginia college ID.

When signing the legislation, McDonnell also issued an executive order requiring that every active voter in the state be sent a new voter card.
Way to go Virginia. /Feelsgoodman
     
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Sep 5, 2012, 12:47 PM
 
Well you guys had your chance to celebrate good policy before bad policy reared its ugly head.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...p_ref=politics
Ohio Secretary of State Jon Husted announced Tuesday that the state would not comply with a court ruling and restore early voting in the final weekend before the election until an appellate court rules on the matter.
It's my understand this is considered contempt of court?
     
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Sep 6, 2012, 03:40 AM
 
OK panel, how do we secure the absentee ballot vote? Absentee ballots, for the most part, get counted only when the vote is close and the outstanding absentee ballots can affect the outcome.

Ark. lawmaker pleads guilty to election charge

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) - A Democratic state legislator from east Arkansas, his father and two campaign workers pleaded guilty Wednesday to conspiracy to commit election fraud after federal prosecutors said the lawmaker's campaign bribed absentee voters and destroyed ballots in a special election last year.
Prosecutors said Hallum and his father, Kent, tasked Carter and Malone with obtaining absentee ballot applications for certain voters and assisting voters in filling out the ballots, "actually completing absentee ballots in some instances without regard to the voter's actual candidate choice."

The ballots were typically placed in unsealed envelopes before being mailed to local election officials.

"If a ballot contained a vote for Hudson Hallum's opponent, it was destroyed," prosecutors said in a bill of information filed with the court.

Prosecutors also accused the four of offering money and food to absentee voters in exchange for their support.

At one point, prosecutors said, Hallum told Carter: "We need to use that black limo and buy a couple cases of some cheap vodka and whiskey to get people to vote."
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Sep 6, 2012, 08:23 AM
 
Wrong year.
     
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Sep 6, 2012, 08:46 AM
 
To be clear though, that guy is a jerk. Glad he got caught.

On Topic: If voting hours are restricted in certain areas, I expect smart voters to start using absentee ballots more. They should be counted, not just in a tie.
     
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Sep 6, 2012, 09:17 AM
 
Photo ID needs to be a REQUIREMENT, just to stop guys like this:

http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article.aspx?aid=132827.54928.144956


A DEMOCRAT??? Hmmmm.........
     
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Sep 6, 2012, 09:20 AM
 
It's like he doesn't even read...
     
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Sep 6, 2012, 09:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Hey great, Screamy McNevereplies has important thoughts he needs to share, Y3a style. Let's examine them, shall we?
LOL
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Not everyone drives (or has a car), particularly in metropolitan areas.
DOESN'T MATTER. IF it is important enough then some effort should be made. I also laugh at the idiots in DC who whine about lack of representation, and they still live in DC. Moving 3 miles to Maryland or Virginia too hard?
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
All this legislation was passed this year, so they had less than a year, and that's if they're paying attention.
So what about the elections before? NEVER GONNA GET A CHANCE TO GET THAT ID??? Do you think that is a good excuse? So they never went to a doctor, never got a prescription? What BS.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Excuses like, it's illegal, which most of the courts have agreed with. (I'm lookin' at you, PA)
     
OAW
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Sep 6, 2012, 09:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's like he doesn't even read...
You think?

OAW
     
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Sep 6, 2012, 10:11 AM
 
He's reading the same talking points.

Wouldn't it make more sense to pound on ACORN? I know that's a dead horse, but dead horses still rate higher than a frickin Arkansas state rep.
     
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Sep 6, 2012, 10:14 AM
 
Yeah but he was in such a hurry to post it he didn't read the thread until afterwards.

Also love my "It's illegal" quote just hanging out there alone like an old undetonated bomb he hopes won't go off.
     
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Sep 6, 2012, 10:22 AM
 
I think he may have wanted to address that, but had already popped the clutch on his ticker.
     
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Sep 6, 2012, 10:38 AM
 
I'm still waiting for a REAL reason someone *CAN'T* get a photo ID. The BS Excuses don't fly. Voters should be responsible for their ID's.

Other voters, the State, and Politicians are NOT suppressing your right to vote.

Irresponsibility may be a way of life for Liberals, but does ruin your chances to vote.

Too many instances of real voter fraud in the press these days to deny that it happens.
     
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Sep 6, 2012, 10:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Too many instances of real voter fraud in the press these days to deny that it happens.
Aside from Acorn and this douche, what evidence is there? There's none in PA.
     
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Sep 6, 2012, 10:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
I'm still waiting for a REAL reason someone *CAN'T* get a photo ID. The BS Excuses don't fly. Voters should be responsible for their ID's.
Other voters, the State, and Politicians are NOT suppressing your right to vote.
Irresponsibility may be a way of life for Liberals, but does ruin your chances to vote.
Too many instances of real voter fraud in the press these days to deny that it happens.
No one is providing reasons because your question isn't relevant.

Can you come up with even one example of someone impersonating a registered voter?
     
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Sep 6, 2012, 10:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Aside from Acorn and this douche, what evidence is there? There's none in PA.
I'm sure there's voter fraud going on all over the place, just not via impersonation.

That's like counterfeiting a one dollar bill.
     
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Sep 6, 2012, 11:00 AM
 
Ugh, yeah, good reminder to be specific about the type of voter fraud these laws would supposedly stop.
     
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Sep 6, 2012, 02:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
I'm still waiting for a REAL reason someone *CAN'T* get a photo ID. The BS Excuses don't fly. Voters should be responsible for their ID's.
You aren't waiting on anything. It's already been provided. Repeatedly. The thing is you simply choose to dismiss it. Probably because it doesn't affect you. But again ... a dismissal is not a rebuttal. I'll re-post what I said earlier as an example ....

Originally Posted by OAW
I've already explained to you just above the fundamental issue with a Photo ID requirement. Earlier in the thread I went into even further detail. If you choose to ignore that then it's on you. All I will say here is to look into that part I bolded in your comment above. You see therein lies the rub. Sure a lot of these GOP controlled states instituting these requirements offer a "free" photo ID. What they do NOT do is offer free access to the supporting documentation you need to get that photo ID! That copy of your birth certificate is NOT free. That copy of your Social Security Card is NOT free. That copy of your Marriage License is NOT free. If you don't own a vehicle the cost to get to the umpteen different government offices you have to visit by public transportation to obtain all this supporting document is damned sure NOT free. If ... and I repeat ... IF you are even fortunate enough to have a bus or subway line drop you off in the general vicinity of one of said offices. And that's assuming you can take off work to even get to said offices which generally keep banker's hours. And again, this is assuming that such supporting documentation is even available. Care to guess how many former or current New Orleans would be hard pressed to produce a birth certificate or marriage license after Hurricane Katrina because the official copies were destroyed?

You see these are the types of things that real people deal with on a regular basis that in all honesty may not even occur to some of us around here. I'd venture to say that most of us around here are middle class or above. Most likely working a professional job. Probably own a vehicle or have some access to public transportation or ground service. So gathering up such supporting documentation if need be is little more than a hassle. An inconvenience at best. More than likely not even necessary at all because it's a safe bet that most of us already have drivers license. And it's all too easy to get caught up into thinking that it's like that for everybody. But it most certainly is not. Imagine a guy that's born and raised in the US of A, but he can't afford a car and his only options for a job are those that are located near a bus line that serves his neighborhood. Subject to the availability of a bus service that is always the first to be cut when the city is facing budget issues. He's not working a professional, corporate type salaried job where he can take a long lunch or leave a bit early one day to run an errand. No he works in a warehouse and punches a clock. For a company that is loathe to even give such employees time off to go vote let alone run around town gathering up supporting documentation for a Photo ID. My point here is that there are MILLIONS of people in such circumstances that live in the US. They may not live in your neck of the woods. But they do exist and they are US citizens. So when it comes to a matter of public policy involving a constitutional right like voting ... the question becomes does the policy disenfranchise more legitimate voters than it prevents illegitimate voters from voting? And given the statistics on voter impersonation ... which is the only thing a Photo ID would address ... the answer to that is a no brainer. Again, such cases are virtually non-existent when compared to the hundreds of millions of votes cast each election cycle.
You're a guy who's birth certificate got burned up in a house fire. You have no car and punch a clock for a job that you have to catch a bus to get to. You don't get off until after the government office that provides duplicate birth certificates closes. Bus service isn't available on the weekends. You can't afford to miss a day of work to go during the week. But that's not a "REAL reason" for you huh?

You're an elderly black lady born in the south during Jim Crow. You've been voting for decades without issue. Now you need a photo ID which you don't have because you don't drive anymore. And the birth certificate you need to get a photo ID simply does not exist because the state you were born in didn't think it worthwhile to record the births of African-Americans in the era you were born. But that's not a "REAL reason" for you huh?

You're a young lady recently married. Your last name no longer matches what's on your driver's license. You've also relocated with your husband to another state. You can't get a new driver's license in the new state without first obtaining an official copy of the marriage license issued in the previous state where you listed. An official copy that can only be obtained by traveling to the particular county where it was issued. But that's not a "REAL reason" for you huh?

These are just a FEW scenarios off the top of my head. And again, it may not impact YOU ... but that doesn't mean that way more legitimate voters would be impacted by this than illegitimate voters would be stopped trying to commit the VIRTUALLY NON-EXISTENT crime of voter impersonation.

Originally Posted by BadKosh
Too many instances of real voter fraud in the press these days to deny that it happens.
Dude. Seriously. You're really starting to embarrass yourself here. You just got through talking about how photo ID would have prevented the situation with the Arkansas legislator committing voter fraud with absentee ballots. Which is nonsensical in any of itself. VOTER IMPERSONATION (which again is the only thing photo ID would impact) is VOTER FRAUD. But not all VOTER FRAUD is VOTER IMPERSONATION. Please do us all a favor and try to grasp that fundamental point. If that's beyond your comprehension then I'm sorry to inform you that you simply aren't qualified to participate in the discussion.

OAW
     
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Sep 7, 2012, 05:51 AM
 
LOL! You sound as pathetic as the rest.

So those Voter ID kiosks are right next to the DMV, and on-line.

Tell me when your guy who works all the time would have time to vote? People are more flexible in the real world than your strawman.

ALL STATES have means to identify those who may not have a BC. Usually a utility bill, and a tax form(both free).

The postal service does deliver all over the US so getting a copy of the ladies marriage cert, ect isn't that hard.

YOUR EXAMPLES ARE ALL STRAWMAN.


I'm still not clear on WHY you think asking for some official ID is too difficult. The reasons given are poor grade BS at best. The SCOTUS seems to think Photo ID's aren't a problem.
Cleaning out the dead people is also a great idea, but the Doj wants to keep those dead folks on the voter rolls. WHY?

The BS strawman arguements still don't answer WHY they "CAN'T" get that photo ID.

I suggest a short answer with less convoluted and twisted liberal 'logic'.
     
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Sep 7, 2012, 07:54 AM
 
Can you come up with one example of someone impersonating a registered voter?

One. Just one.

From across the entire country.

If you can't swing that I don't know where you get off calling STRAWMAN.
     
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Sep 7, 2012, 12:59 PM
 
Indiana enacted a state ID requirement for voting in something like 2007. I still lived there, at any rate.

The reaction was the same as what's happening here, and yet when the polls closed, voter turnout and party percentages weren't any different than previous years - Marion county (which is essentially equivalent to Indianapolis, the state's capital and most populous part of the state) voted Democrat and nearly every other county voted Republican (given that it's the Midwest and everyone else is either a redneck or a fundie Christian).

All it did was make sure that everyone voting was legitimately and legally allowed to vote. In fact, the state also enacted a law providing that anyone who was too poor to pay the fee for a state ID card could get one for free, just so that the playing field was level and everyone had access to the same forms of identification regardless of race or income status.

I realize that it's possible and probable that the Republican party in Pennsylvania has an ulterior motive here. That said, I've seen it happen myself and it didn't have any impact on actual polling results and did not end up causing "legitimate voter suppression".
     
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Sep 7, 2012, 01:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
You're a guy who's birth certificate got burned up in a house fire. You have no car and punch a clock for a job that you have to catch a bus to get to. You don't get off until after the government office that provides duplicate birth certificates closes. Bus service isn't available on the weekends. You can't afford to miss a day of work to go during the week.
It's 2012. Order it on the Internet. Call the office and leave a voicemail and explain what's going on. Use a payphone during lunch hour.

Or, have a contingency plan in the first place. House fires are fairly rare, but they do happen. It's why I have a fireproof safe in my house that contains copies of my birth certificate, social security card, and holds my passport (unless I need it for things like documents for new employment). There are multiple reasons to need a legal copy of your birth certificate other than getting an ID card.

If you lose your only copy of something that important (and you really should have more than one copy, say in a safe deposit box at your local bank), the first thing you need to do after a huge loss like that is restore your identifying and ownership documents - car title, mortgage certificate, birth certificate, passport, SS card, naturalization papers, etc.

You're an elderly black lady born in the south during Jim Crow. You've been voting for decades without issue. Now you need a photo ID which you don't have because you don't drive anymore. And the birth certificate you need to get a photo ID simply does not exist because the state you were born in didn't think it worthwhile to record the births of African-Americans in the era you were born.
Can you provide any documented evidence that there have been situations in the past decade where American citizens have been unable to produce proof of legal residency or citizenship in the United States due to a birth certificate literally never being recorded or documented?

If you are an elderly black person who no longer drives and know for an absolute fact that there is no documented record of your birth (which would have made it incredibly difficult to get a driver's license or a job before you retired, since there is a federal mandate that businesses must have proof of residency, citizenship, or employment eligibility to hire people - and yes, Mexicans use fake paperwork to get around this, but I seriously doubt that's the case here), it is your responsibility to maintain proof of residency. That means going to the DMV (take the bus; most areas provide free or discounted transit to senior citizens) on a regular basis (every four years or whatever is required) to maintain a valid state identification card. For instance, in the state of Virginia, a Virginia DMV-issued ID card that has been expired for less than a year is valid identification to obtain a new, valid state ID card.

Again, the ability to obtain state ID for voting and other purposes is not the only reason why it is sensible and even necessary to maintain valid copies of identification documents.

You're a young lady recently married. Your last name no longer matches what's on your driver's license. You've also relocated with your husband to another state. You can't get a new driver's license in the new state without first obtaining an official copy of the marriage license issued in the previous state where you listed. An official copy that can only be obtained by traveling to the particular county where it was issued.
Again, in 2012, can you provide documented evidence that this is still the case - that you have to be physically present to obtain a copy of a marriage license?

That makes precious little sense in this day and age. People move frequently within the United States. People move abroad. I doubt that any county in modern times has a mandate that you must be physically present to obtain a copy of a marriage license.

Not only that, but as a young lady who recently got married, why do you not have a copy of your marriage license in your possession?

It is not the state's responsibility to make sure that its citizens sensibly maintain copies of critical identification documents and records. It is not the federal government's responsibility. It is not municipal government's responsibility. It is your responsibility.

If you find it difficult or impossible to do this task, perhaps you aren't up for the responsibility of voting, either.
     
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Sep 7, 2012, 06:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Indiana enacted a state ID requirement for voting in something like 2007. I still lived there, at any rate.

The reaction was the same as what's happening here, and yet when the polls closed, voter turnout and party percentages weren't any different than previous years - Marion county (which is essentially equivalent to Indianapolis, the state's capital and most populous part of the state) voted Democrat and nearly every other county voted Republican (given that it's the Midwest and everyone else is either a redneck or a fundie Christian).
This is incomplete data.

The law doesn't stop you from voting without a photo ID, it makes votes cast without a photo ID provisional.

This should have negligible effect on turnout.
     
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Sep 7, 2012, 06:36 PM
 
To complete that data, it appears there were only a little more than a thousand provisional votes cast in 2008, so not that many.
     
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Sep 7, 2012, 07:04 PM
 
OTOH, 3% of the ballots in Ohio were provisional in 2008, this was pre-ID law though, so I have no idea why.

IIUC, the standard reason is you're not on the rolls. If that's the reason in Ohio, jeez... WTF? That's a lot of unregistered people.
     
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Sep 7, 2012, 08:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
If you find it difficult or impossible to do this task, perhaps you aren't up for the responsibility of voting, either.
This thought process is at the core of a lot of arguments here, and it's alien to me when applied to the concept of a right. Someone is going to have to walk me through it, because otherwise it just frosts my ass. Where in the concept of "rights" are they supposed to be dependent on your responsibility?

I can sell you a ****ing gun without jumping through any hoops. That's how a right works.
     
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Sep 8, 2012, 11:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post

This thought process is at the core of a lot of arguments here, and it's alien to me when applied to the concept of a right. Someone is going to have to walk me through it, because otherwise it just frosts my ass. Where in the concept of "rights" are they supposed to be dependent on your responsibility?
I can sell you a ****ing gun without jumping through any hoops. That's how a right works.
You can't buy a firearm in most states without a valid form of photo ID and a background check.

The core to the whole "This is to keep poor people from voting!!" argument is that poor people are somehow incapable of acquiring valid state photo ID. It seems to me that poor people who are actually interested in improving their society, the economy, and the future of the country are probably the same poor people who have, shockingly enough, figured out a way to maintain valid identification.

There are many reasons to possess a state ID card. You can't buy cigarettes, alcohol, or firearms without one. You need one to get a loan. You need one to legally drive a vehicle. You need one to get a job.

I'd keep posting but there's a ****ING TORNADO in my county right now and we've been advised to run like hell. Hope I'm still alive in an hour!
     
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Sep 8, 2012, 01:38 PM
 
A tornado in New York? Is that commonplace?

I would suggest that needing ID to buy firearms makes it more likely that people without ID will be democrats than republicans.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Sep 8, 2012, 02:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
You can't buy a firearm in most states without a valid form of photo ID and a background check.
That's a Federal law, and it doesn't apply to me because I'm not a gun dealer. Likewise, the Second was the last of the amendments in the Bill of Rights to get incorporated by the SCOTUS, but that's exactly what they did, because it's a right guaranteed in the Constitution.

So, I ask again, where is the notion of this right being dependent on my responsibility?


WRT your question, you are mistaken about the core argument. We're discussing the effects of the burden because that keeps being asked about. The core argument is requiring photo ID at polling places does not curb voter fraud. Voter fraud isn't committed by way of impersonation. The core argument is the law is (and I'm actually stealing Michael Steele's term for it, if you can believe that) frivolous.


P.S. Hope you're not dead.
     
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Sep 9, 2012, 06:50 AM
 
Tornadoes in NYC are definitely not common, although there have been more in recent years. I don't recall a single tornado when I was growing up there. It looks like nobody got hurt, though: they came in off the ocean and dissipated shortly after touching land.

In any case, I haven't really kept up with this thread at all, but I've always been confused about early voting, mainly because I've never done it. (I'm not even sure if it is available in New York). Then again, I work at a job where nobody cares if I show up to work 5 minutes late most days. Is the issue just that even though employers are supposed to make accommodations for voting on Election Day, some of them don't, so it is more convenient for these folks to vote on the weekend?

Even with early voting, in-person voter fraud seems like a losing proposition. How many times can someone reasonably vote in person? You would need a massive voter fraud operation involving lots of people to even thing about manipulating enough votes to alter a close election. Fraudulently casting single votes is a sucker's game -- simple arithmetic dictates it won't work, and each fraudulent vote cast opens you up to severe penalties.

Fraud seems much more likely when it comes to manipulating absentee ballots, or the voting machines themselves. With just a little bit of effort, you can potentially alter hundreds or thousands of votes at once, or even an entire district's votes if you meddle with the voting machines. How much vetting is done on elections officials with access to ballots?
     
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Sep 9, 2012, 08:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dork. View Post
Even with early voting, in-person voter fraud seems like a losing proposition. How many times can someone reasonably vote in person? You would need a massive voter fraud operation involving lots of people to even thing about manipulating enough votes to alter a close election. Fraudulently casting single votes is a sucker's game -- simple arithmetic dictates it won't work, and each fraudulent vote cast opens you up to severe penalties.
This was why I made the "counterfeiting a one dollar bill" comment.

It's a massive effort, you've committed a federal crime, and for what? A dollar.

Just like counterfeiters make $100 dollar bills, people engaging in vote fraud do something which alters hundreds of votes in one swoop.
     
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Sep 9, 2012, 08:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dork. View Post
Fraud seems much more likely when it comes to manipulating absentee ballots, or the voting machines themselves. With just a little bit of effort, you can potentially alter hundreds or thousands of votes at once, or even an entire district's votes if you meddle with the voting machines. How much vetting is done on elections officials with access to ballots?
I think it's assumed shenannigans will take place, which is why there's someone from the other party there to watch you.

Who is, of course, trying to perpetrate their own shenannigans.
     
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Sep 9, 2012, 11:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
people engaging in vote fraud do something which alters hundreds of votes in one swoop.
Like passing laws intended to prevent the other party's voters from getting to stations and casting their votes?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Sep 9, 2012, 11:20 AM
 
That's politics. Whole different level of fraud.
     
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Sep 13, 2012, 06:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Can you come up with one example of someone impersonating a registered voter?
One. Just one.
From across the entire country.
If you can't swing that I don't know where you get off calling STRAWMAN.
Wendy Rosen, the Democratic nominee to challenge Republican Rep. Andy Harris in the First Congressional District, withdrew from the race Monday amid allegations that she had voted in elections in both Maryland and Florida in 2006 and 2008.

Rosen, a Cockeysville businesswoman and Maryland voter, told The Baltimore Sun on Monday that she had registered to vote in Florida several years ago in order to support a “very close friend” running for the St. Petersburg City Council and to vote on local issues there.



http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-09-10/news/bal-wendy-rosen-withdraws-20120910_1_general-election-vote-on-local-issues-maryland-s-1st-congressional-district
     
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Sep 13, 2012, 06:59 AM
 
She wasn't impersonating anyone but herself though. To be clear, she's a jerk, but this fraud is a totally different type of fraud. ID would not have stopped this.
     
 
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