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This is so seriously wrong :(
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Mar 5, 2013, 05:59 PM
 
To perform CPR or not? Woman's death raises questions - CNN.com


I'm to speechless to even post a comment. This is just seriously messed up.

"I understand if your boss is telling you you can't do it," the dispatcher said. "But ... as a human being ... you know ... is there anybody that's willing to help this lady and not let her die?"
"Not at this time," Colleen answered.
Glenwood Gardens' corporate owner is Brookdale Senior Living, Inc., based in Tennessee.
CNN asked spokesman Matt Fontana why a nurse would be involved if the facility's policy prohibits staffers from performing medical care.
"(Colleen) was hired to be the Resident Services Director and that is the capacity in which she was serving," Fontana explained in an e-mail.
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Mar 5, 2013, 06:10 PM
 
What the hell kind of policy is that. Unless the staff knew she had a DNR, they should have tried to resuscitate.

Even if the staffer wasn't hired as a nurse, isn't this why we have emergency training? Isn't there more liability risk from standing by and doing nothing than if you try and don't? Anybody else with a family member in that facility should be rethinking their choice.

You don't even have to do the breathing if you think it's "icky"; they say chest compressions are enough.
     
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Mar 5, 2013, 06:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Isn't there more liability risk from standing by and doing nothing than if you try and don't?
Unfortunately no. And hence the policy.

OAW
     
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Mar 5, 2013, 06:33 PM
 
This is where individuality comes to play, I would say to hell with company policy and render help. Get fired oh well. Get sued oh well. At the end of the day I have to live with myself and I can easier live with a bankruptcy over a lawsuit and being unemployed then questioning if my lack of actions contributed to the death of some ones mother and grandmother.
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Mar 5, 2013, 06:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
This is where individuality comes to play, I would say to hell with company policy and render help. Get fired oh well. Get sued oh well. At the end of the day I have to live with myself and I can easier live with a bankruptcy over a lawsuit and being unemployed then questioning if my lack of actions contributed to the death of some ones mother and grandmother.
I totally understand. Only thing I can say is that it's a lot easier to take that position if one is relatively young and single. Whereas if one is say the breadwinner for a family it's a different ball of wax. It could very well be that this nurse fell into the latter category. Regardless, it's our overly litigious society that's the culprit here. And it totally sucks that the nurse was even put in that position because of it.

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Mar 5, 2013, 07:04 PM
 
Well I am coming at this from a different perspective, I am not American and don't live in America so I can't understand this. I mean I really can't understand it because its not how it works here. Litigation isn't even a thought to occur at any point, before, during or after. Period. I just can not relate to this feeling, this fear, this mentality at all. Its like if you took a toy space shuttle and gave it to a Amazing Tribes person who has had no contact with outsiders ever. It would just be this oddly shaped white thing with bits that stick out and a black bottom or perhaps seen as a black top depending on how they hold it. This is what I mean when I just can not comprehend this litigation crap.

How can this fear override personal morals to the point that some one will argue with a 911 dispatcher and allow some one to die. I don't get it. This truly makes me sad. I mean it really really makes me sad as if a loved one died right now. And I am pretty desensitized to stuff.
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Mar 5, 2013, 07:53 PM
 
I'm going to guess the real problem isn't people suing each other, it's insurance companies, and they're the ones who put the fear of God into people.

The old lady's insurance is going to try and recoup their payout by suing the home. The home's insurance policy won't protect them from it if the terms of coverage were violated.

The home drills this into their employees, hard.
     
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Mar 5, 2013, 07:59 PM
 
F$&@ the USSA's tort system. That's all.

-t
( Last edited by turtle777; Mar 6, 2013 at 09:01 AM. )
     
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Mar 5, 2013, 11:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Well I am coming at this from a different perspective, I am not American and don't live in America so I can't understand this. I mean I really can't understand it because its not how it works here. Litigation isn't even a thought to occur at any point, before, during or after. Period. I just can not relate to this feeling, this fear, this mentality at all

How can this fear override personal morals to the point that some one will argue with a 911 dispatcher and allow some one to die. I don't get it. This truly makes me sad. I mean it really really makes me sad as if a loved one died right now. And I am pretty desensitized to stuff.
In certain parts of the US people are really... really, terrified of their government; living in fear every day of the mighty wrath if they fail to do every little step, every action, by the book. A lot of people have grown up and gotten used to not knowing what to do without robot commands coming from their supervisors above.
     
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Mar 6, 2013, 04:36 AM
 
I would think the family has a suit on their hands. This women was entrusted to the home's care.

Seriously ****ed up. I couldn't imagine a workplace policy preventing me from trying to save someone's life. May the ****tard who set that policy rot in hell.
     
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Mar 6, 2013, 12:05 PM
 
And the plot thickens ....

A woman who died after a nurse at her elder home refused to provide CPR had chosen to live in a facility without medical staff and wanted to pass away without life-prolonging intervention, her family said Tuesday.

Lorraine Bayless' family said in a statement to The Associated Press that it does not plan to sue the independent living facility where the 87-year-old woman died last week.

A 911 tape recounts a dramatic conversation between a dispatcher and a nurse who refused to cooperate with pleas for someone to start CPR as firefighters sped to the scene. In the 7-minute, 16-second exchange, the dispatcher insisted the nurse perform CPR or find someone willing to do it.

The home's parent company said in a statement that the employee wrongly interpreted company policy when she declined to offer aide.

"This incident resulted from a complete misunderstanding of our practice with regards to emergency medical care for our residents. Glenwood Gardens is conducting a full internal investigation," Brookdale Senior Living said, adding that the employee was on voluntary leave during the process.

City fire officials say Bayless did not have a "do not resuscitate" order on file at the home. Her family said, however, "it was our beloved mother and grandmother's wish to die naturally and without any kind of life-prolonging intervention."

Glenwood Gardens is an independent living facility, and company officials say no medical staff is employed there. The woman who identified herself as a nurse to the dispatcher was employed at the facility as a resident services director, the company said.
The nurse's decision has prompted multiple state and local investigations at Glenwood Gardens in Bakersfield.


The California attorney general was "aware" of the incident, said a spokeswoman, Lynda Gledhill. Bakersfield police were trying to determine whether a crime was committed when the nurse refused to assist the 911 dispatcher looking for someone to start CPR.
The nation's largest trade group for senior living facilities has called for its members to review policies that employees might interpret as edicts to not cooperate with emergency responders.

"It was a complete tragedy," said Maribeth Bersani, senior vice president of the Assisted Living Federation of America. "Our members are now looking at their policies to make sure they are clear. Whether they have one to initiate (CPR) or not, they should be responsive to what the 911 person tells them to do."

Bayless collapsed in the Glenwood Gardens dining hall on Feb. 26. Someone called 911 on a cellphone asking for an ambulance to be sent and eventually a woman who identified herself as a nurse got on the line.

Brookdale Senior Living said in a statement that the woman on the 911 call was "serving in the capacity of a resident services director, not a nurse."

The Tennessee-based parent company also said that by law, the independent living facility is "not licensed to provide medical care to any of its residents." But it added later that it was reviewing company policies "involving emergency medical care across all of our communities."

Bayless' family said she was aware that Glenwood Gardens did not offer trained medical staff, yet opted to live there anyway.

"We understand that the 911 tape of this event has caused concern, but our family knows that mom had full knowledge of the limitations of Glenwood Gardens and is at peace," the family's statement said.

The death shines a light on the varying medical care that different types of elderly housing provide — differences that consumers may not be aware of, advocates say.

Even if independent living homes lack trained medical staff, some say they should be ready to perform basic services such as CPR if needed.

The California Board of Registered Nursing is concerned that the woman who spoke to the 911 dispatcher did not respond to requests to provide aid or to find someone who might want to help.

"If she's not engaged in the practice of nursing, there's no obligation (to help)," agency spokesman Russ Heimerich said. "What complicates this further is the idea that she wouldn't hand the phone over either. So that's why we want to look into it."
"I would certainly hope someone would choose human life over a facility policy, said Robyn Grant, director of public policy and advocacy at the National Consumer Voice for Quality Long-Term Care. "That's pretty rotten."

The family said it would not sue or try to profit from the death, and called it "a lesson we can all learn from."

"We regret that this private and most personal time has been escalated by the media," the statement said.
Family of California woman who died after being denied CPR says she wanted no intervention - U.S. News

So the family says that the elderly lady who passed away knew that the facility did not offer medical care and did not want "any kind of life-prolonging intervention." The nurse working as a "resident services director" said she was following company policy to not provide any. The assisted living center where she worked said she was following company policy. The parent company of the assisted living center claims that the "employee wrongly interpreted company policy" but then turns around and says that "by law, the independent living facility is 'not licensed to provide medical care to any of its residents.'" Then on top of that says that "it was reviewing company policies 'involving emergency medical care across all of our communities.'" ... which begs the question ... WTF is there to "review" if "This incident resulted from a complete misunderstanding of our practice with regards to emergency medical care for our residents." The Assisted Living Federation of America says that employees of its member organizations "should be responsive to what the 911 person tells them to do. And the California Board of Registered Nursing says that "What complicates this further is the idea that she wouldn't hand the phone over either."

In other words ... it's a massive clusterf*ck all the way around.

Kudos to the elderly woman's family for allowing her to RIP. The assisted living facility and its parent company need to get their story straight with respect to official policy. The trade organization should provide more explicit guidance on such topics. And the CA nursing board should revoke the license of the so-called "nurse". Not because she didn't help ... but because she refused to even hand the phone over to someone who would.

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Mar 6, 2013, 12:11 PM
 
If the woman did not have a signed DNR, then how would the family or facility know her wishes? I can understand the family being pragmatic and non-lawsuit-happy about their 87yr old family member's passing though.

My mother has given me a living will to record her wishes.
     
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Mar 6, 2013, 01:19 PM
 
"Glenwood Gardens is an independent living facility, and company officials say no medical staff is employed there"

There's your problem.
     
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Mar 6, 2013, 01:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
If the woman did not have a signed DNR, then how would the family or facility know her wishes? I can understand the family being pragmatic and non-lawsuit-happy about their 87yr old family member's passing though.

My mother has given me a living will to record her wishes.
I suspect they had discussed it with her. That being said, it's best to have a DNR on file to avoid all the "he said/she said" stuff.

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Mar 6, 2013, 01:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
"Glenwood Gardens is an independent living facility, and company officials say no medical staff is employed there"

There's your problem.
I imagine its to keep costs down.
     
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Mar 6, 2013, 01:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
"Glenwood Gardens is an independent living facility, and company officials say no medical staff is employed there"

There's your problem.
Keep in mind that this is a retirement home ... NOT a nursing home. So the fact that no medical staff is employed there is to be expected.

OAW
     
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Mar 6, 2013, 01:53 PM
 
I thought the whole point of independent living was its just like normal living except they're at least moderately equipped to take care of things if you accidentally start to die.

That, and a snack tray in the lobby.
     
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Mar 6, 2013, 01:53 PM
 
and bridge clubs
     
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Mar 6, 2013, 01:58 PM
 
Or at least a bridge mix.

There was a commercial which was going through the benefits of such and such home. One of those was "snacks anytime".

Wait... snacks anytime?

How old do I have to be again?
     
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Mar 6, 2013, 02:03 PM
 
Well, let's be realistic. The joke is you enter the world needing diapers and you leave it needing diapers. With the degradation of mental faculties and late life health requirements, snacks anytime isn't exactly a sound policy.
     
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Mar 6, 2013, 02:06 PM
 
I'd say the opposite. What's a few jelly donuts going to do at that point? Might as well start smoking too.
     
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Mar 6, 2013, 02:11 PM
 
Since she's an employee of the company and not a bystander then if she were to help she would probably not be protected by any good samaritan laws. Since the company doesn't offer medical care they don't carry malpractice insurance so the nurse would be fully liable for any claims the family would want to make if she did anything.
     
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Mar 6, 2013, 02:17 PM
 
Along those lines you could even say it was within her purview to refuse to hand off the phone as she did. Someone there would have needed to pull out a Jitterbug.
     
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Mar 6, 2013, 06:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
"Glenwood Gardens is an independent living facility, and company officials say no medical staff is employed there"

There's your problem.
That in itself isn't a problem.

My only issue in all of this was the part of company policy not to help and refusal to render the most basic aid after being directed to or turning the phone to some one else to. The nonchalant and cold attitude of the woman on the phone. The near robotic reaction to it. That's where my problem is. I really don't have a problem with a person say i don't want to perform CPU because im scared to or because they are freaking out and just cant.

At the end of the day survival rates for people that old even with CPR is low. And there is a risk of doing great damage as well. But none of that matters when a 911 operator is directing some one to do it or to turn the phone to some one that to do it. Thats where this became a story, that refusal to do both.
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Mar 6, 2013, 06:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
Since she's an employee of the company and not a bystander then if she were to help she would probably not be protected by any good samaritan laws. Since the company doesn't offer medical care they don't carry malpractice insurance so the nurse would be fully liable for any claims the family would want to make if she did anything.
good Samaritan laws are state to state and province to province but that said almost every one I have ever looked at applied to the person regardless of if they where working or not, if it was at there employment or not except for registered health professionals at a health care facility. I am pretty sure she would have been protected.
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Mar 6, 2013, 06:40 PM
 
I'd say that in the past she'd conveyed her wishes to the attendant, though it would have made things less prickly if they had a DNR. Kudos to the family for not seeing this as a money-grab situation. Respect.
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Mar 6, 2013, 11:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
good Samaritan laws are state to state and province to province but that said almost every one I have ever looked at applied to the person regardless of if they where working or not, if it was at there employment or not except for registered health professionals at a health care facility. I am pretty sure she would have been protected.
Well since she's a nurse not a lawyer I'd give her a pass. That's a ding against the legal system not the medical one.
     
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Mar 7, 2013, 02:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
Well since she's a nurse not a lawyer I'd give her a pass. That's a ding against the legal system not the medical one.
Shes not a nurse. What she said on the phone vs what she really is are not jiving. No one knows why she claimed to be a nurse on the phone.
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Mar 7, 2013, 12:04 PM
 
If my elderly mother in law collapsed in the lobby of her non-retirement apartment building, I should hope the building staff would respond and not just let her die.

It shouldn't matter if it's a medical establishment or not.

Maybe at a certain age we need to wear DNR bracelets just like people have Medic-alert bracelets.
     
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Mar 7, 2013, 01:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
If my elderly mother in law collapsed in the lobby of her non-retirement apartment building, I should hope the building staff would respond and not just let her die.

It shouldn't matter if it's a medical establishment or not.

Maybe at a certain age we need to wear DNR bracelets just like people have Medic-alert bracelets.
I have a question and a comment.

Aren't DNR orders only for when you're under constant medical care, have a horrible quality of life, and are hanging on by a thread? I don't think DNRs are for people still capable of getting out of bed.

For the comment, I want to go back to the insurance deal. I'd bet dollars to donuts it's the insurance company who told the home, "you do anything medical, you're going to get sued by your client's insurance company, and we're not covering you. Tell your staff, make sure this is crystal clear".
     
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Mar 7, 2013, 03:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
If my elderly mother in law collapsed in the lobby of her non-retirement apartment building, I should hope the building staff would respond and not just let her die.

It shouldn't matter if it's a medical establishment or not.

Maybe at a certain age we need to wear DNR bracelets just like people have Medic-alert bracelets.
I think the only place a DNR bracelet belongs is in a hospital itself. What if she was just choking on food. The concept of DNR should only apply in a hospital setting. No in a lobby, not in a house.
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Mar 7, 2013, 04:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
If my elderly mother in law collapsed in the lobby of her non-retirement apartment building, I should hope the building staff would respond and not just let her die.
They did, they called 911.
     
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Mar 7, 2013, 04:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Shes not a nurse. What she said on the phone vs what she really is are not jiving. No one knows why she claimed to be a nurse on the phone.
Without knowing that I stand by my statement. Knowing that makes it irrelevant. It makes her unwillingness to perform CPR more reasonable though. I'd expect a nurse to know, not the average person. It's been years since I was CPR certified and I couldn't say if I'd do it now on some random person.
     
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Mar 7, 2013, 09:29 PM
 
Isn't 87 a reasonable age to just die anymore these days? jeez! Leave the lady in peace and hope you'll live as long...
These people are Americans. Don't expect anything meaningful or... uh... normalcy...
     
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Mar 13, 2013, 05:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
Without knowing that I stand by my statement. Knowing that makes it irrelevant. It makes her unwillingness to perform CPR more reasonable though. I'd expect a nurse to know, not the average person. It's been years since I was CPR certified and I couldn't say if I'd do it now on some random person.
She refused because of company policy not because of personal discomfort. Additional she refused to hand the phone to any one else as well, again company policy. She went beyond personal unwillingness and became a gate keeper of sort preventing the operator from instructing any one else that might be willing to by not given the phone to some one else.
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Mar 13, 2013, 07:36 AM
 
This makes me think of The Good Samaritan. Maybe the people who passed him by were not only in a rush, or couldn't be bothered, but maybe they didn't want to get sued. I thought only bad deeds had repercussions...
     
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Mar 13, 2013, 11:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
I think the only place a DNR bracelet belongs is in a hospital itself. What if she was just choking on food. The concept of DNR should only apply in a hospital setting. No in a lobby, not in a house.
I agree, I was just engaging in a little hyperbole.

Originally Posted by MacGirl80 View Post
This makes me think of The Good Samaritan. Maybe the people who passed him by were not only in a rush, or couldn't be bothered, but maybe they didn't want to get sued. I thought only bad deeds had repercussions...
Just had a red cross refresher, and we went over the Good Samaritan law. The only ways you can be sued for being a Good Samaritan is if you are directly negligent (don't actually know cpr) or show abandonment (start care and then leave). Broken bones are to be expected.
     
   
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