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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Guess where Mexico gets most of its illegal guns from

Guess where Mexico gets most of its illegal guns from
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Games Meister
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Mar 21, 2013, 01:33 PM
 
It's us!

More than 250,000 Guns A Year Illegally Smuggled Into Mexico, Study Finds | Fox News Latino

More than two percent of all firearms bought in the United States -- about 253,000 -- end up south of the border, up from 1.75 percent in 1990, according to a binational report by the Trans-Border Institute in San Diego and the Igarape Institute, a research center in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
“The Mexican authorities are patently frustrated with the relentless flow of arms and ammunition from north of the border,” the report stated. “These findings suggest that the United States is a significant, albeit unintentional, contributor to the global black market in arms and ammunition (and specifically in Mexico).”
Sounds like the drug war, only in reverse.


Two out of every three illegal firearms found in Mexico come from the United States, according to statistics released by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

And the illegal gun trade is a profitable for gun shops and buyers. The new report found that trade made up around $127 million for the U.S. gun industry between 2010 and 2012 – four times higher than the $32 million between amassed 1997 and 1999.


“The difference between Mexico and the rest of Latin America is its location,” Zissis said. “Bordering a country that has lax laws on guns will help create this problem.”
Just reiterating to those who say gun laws don't work and point to places like NYC or Mexico. This is why.
     
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Mar 21, 2013, 01:40 PM
 
Your point has merit, but the way the statistical information is phrased in the article sends up all kinds of red flags.
     
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Mar 21, 2013, 01:45 PM
 
Feel free to punch holes in it, that why I posted it. I was intrigued that the two-thirds claim didn't come from the study but from the ATF.

Edit: I think it's scary to consider that only 2% of our sales makes up 2/3rds of their illegal influx (assuming I'm reading right)
     
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Mar 21, 2013, 01:51 PM
 
I mainly dislike how it gives a percentage for 1990 and now, but only gives an actual quantity for now.
     
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Mar 21, 2013, 01:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I mainly dislike how it gives a percentage for 1990 and now, but only gives an actual quantity for now.
Honestly the raw quantity seems unimportant to me.
     
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Mar 21, 2013, 02:03 PM
 
That's why I was sure to include the qualifier your point has merit.
     
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Mar 21, 2013, 02:28 PM
 
A ton of guns in Canada are US guns too.
     
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Mar 21, 2013, 04:11 PM
 
No this is evidence for against not for gun control laws. Adding more laws restricting/licensing/tracking gun ownership won't stop smuggling. The obvious solution is more / better enforcement of guns being sold illegally. Though I doubt the smuggling issue is restricted to guns.
     
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Mar 21, 2013, 04:19 PM
 
What it's evidence for is the pointlessness of non-uniform laws.

It's illegal to have a handgun in Chicago. People get shot up here with them all the time. Walk over the border and it's legal to buy and sell them.

Likewise with spray paint. It's illegal to sell it in the city. I assure you this has had zero effect on graffiti.
     
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Mar 21, 2013, 04:24 PM
 
Because stopping people from buying paint will not stop graffiti. Stop trying to prevent the symptom.
     
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Mar 21, 2013, 04:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
The obvious solution is more / better enforcement of guns being sold illegally.
This is part of gun control! Controlling those sold illegally.

To many people equate the term gun control to policies they don't like or aren't reasonable. Isn't a background check gun control? Isn't dealer oversight gun control? C'mon people.
     
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Mar 21, 2013, 04:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This is part of gun control! Controlling those sold illegally.

To many people equate the term gun control to policies they don't like or aren't reasonable. Isn't a background check gun control? Isn't dealer oversight gun control? C'mon people.
You missed it.

The obvious solution...
It's never the obvious solution.
     
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Mar 21, 2013, 04:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
You missed it.

It's never the obvious solution.
Missed what? I've already advocated for that in other threads. Its still obstructed under the guise of gun control being bad.
     
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Mar 21, 2013, 05:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Missed what? I've already advocated for that in other threads. Its still obstructed under the guise of gun control being bad.
Gun control as I see it is the intersection of the hippies and the oligarchs who want no one or only certain people respectively to have guns. It doesn't actually do anything to solve the problem. It sounds good though.

A) Crime is bad.
B) Gun crime is bad.

And then when you invert it
A) Getting rid of guns will stop gun crime
B) Getting rid of ____ will stop crime
Not so obvious anymore is it.
     
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Mar 22, 2013, 07:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's us!

Just reiterating to those who say gun laws don't work and point to places like NYC or Mexico. This is why.
subego What it's evidence for is the pointlessness of non-uniform laws.

It's illegal to have a handgun in Chicago. People get shot up here with them all the time. Walk over the border and it's legal to buy and sell them.
So in order for gun bans to work we need a world wide gun ban? I'm kinda surprised if this doesn't scare even liberals.
The Final Dakar This is part of gun control! Controlling those sold illegally.

To many people equate the term gun control to policies they don't like or aren't reasonable. Isn't a background check gun control? Isn't dealer oversight gun control? C'mon people.
Well we kinda need to specify what kind of gun control we're talking about then. In Chicago they're banned; in Mex they're for all practical purposes banned. Many people won't be satisfied with anything other than bans, while others are satisfied with tighter controls. There's a big difference between the two and everything in between.

I wonder how many of those guns were sold to Mexico by the US government. Gangs don't do drive bys or hold border agents hostage with weapons they got from "us" at the neighborhood dealer.
     
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Mar 22, 2013, 09:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
A) Crime is bad.
B) Gun crime is bad.

And then when you invert it
A) Getting rid of guns will stop gun crime
B) Getting rid of ____ will stop crime
Not so obvious anymore is it.
What the hell is this crap supposed to mean?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Mar 22, 2013, 09:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
I wonder how many of those guns were sold to Mexico by the US government.
I'd like to think that guns sold to the Mexican government legitimately would count as Mexican guns if they were seized from criminals. Unless you are implying that the US govt is supplying the drug cartels directly, which would make you sound like a conspiracy nut.


Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Gangs don't do drive bys or hold border agents hostage with weapons they got from "us" at the neighborhood dealer.
What makes you think that? I'm sure gangs in the US have done drive-bys with guns they got from Wal-Mart so why not?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Mar 22, 2013, 09:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
Gun control as I see it is the intersection of the hippies and the oligarchs...
You know, I've never seen an actual hippie in real life. Are they like the T-Rex or something: still scary even though they haven't walked the Earth in ages?

And I gotta love the notion that hippies and oligarchs are working together to accomplish a political goal. That's like imagining a ladybug helping a body-builder carry a refrigerator.
     
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Mar 22, 2013, 10:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
What the hell is this crap supposed to mean?
The problem is crime. Not gun crime. Stop crime and you stop gun crime. Stop the deranged lunatics and you'll stop the deranged lunatics on shooting sprees.
     
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Mar 23, 2013, 03:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
The problem is crime. Not gun crime. Stop crime and you stop gun crime. Stop the deranged lunatics and you'll stop the deranged lunatics on shooting sprees.
Where is the causal link there? What have drug dealers and users got to do with mentally unhinged gun owners? How about thieves or fraudsters?

There will always be crime. Perhaps you think that if the crime rate were to drop to zero, then no-one would need to own a gun and consequently they'd give them up? Is that what you mean?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Mar 23, 2013, 03:42 PM
 
A very large percentage of illegal guns in Canada are from the USofA too.
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Mar 23, 2013, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Where is the causal link there? What have drug dealers and users got to do with mentally unhinged gun owners? How about thieves or fraudsters?
I didn't say there was. Don't put words in my mouth.
     
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Mar 23, 2013, 08:05 PM
 
The headline is what the ATF and a few anti-gun groups want the data to say. It does not say that. It says that, of the recovered guns, a sizeable proportion can be traced eventually back to the U.S. Not "these were all bought just to smuggle into Mexico", which is the way the headline comes across.

What the ATF data do NOT say is how often Mexican officials either fail to inform ATF of a firearm that is found by them (i.e. one that did not come from the U.S.) or selectively inform ATF of ONLY the U.S. sourced guns they find. They don't talk about the guns military deserters take with them, guns that come from Central America (and all the piles of guns sitting there from all the various conflicts and juntas there), or the guns that are otherwise imported illegally by the cartels. It often looks like either the Mexican government is trying to change U.S. law for their own benefit, or that the cartels are doing this, or both.

Either way, the real START to fixing things in this area is ENFORCEMENT of current laws. And I am (guardedly) in favor of the bill in the Senate to make fraudulently purchasing a firearm to give to someone else a much more serious crime. As it is, "straw purchasing" is a paperwork crime, with a paltry 5 year maximum sentence. It should be more like 20 to life (depending on what happens with the gun after it's purchased) without possibility of parole.

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Mar 23, 2013, 08:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I'd like to think that guns sold to the Mexican government legitimately would count as Mexican guns if they were seized from criminals.
Machine guns that trickle down to drug cartels through our governments policy to sell them to deranged governments/societies that they know can't keep control of them, counts as USA origin guns.

Unless you are implying that the US govt is supplying the drug cartels directly, which would make you sound like a conspiracy nut.
That's not what I was implying; but since you brought it up: I am a "conspiracy nut" as you would say.... and I do think Operation fast and furious counts to this angle. Government's gotta protect its job doesn't it? No chaos means no bureaucratic agency needed to solve such chaos.
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Mar 23, 2013, 11:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
A very large percentage of illegal guns in Canada are from the USofA too.
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
A ton of guns in Canada are US guns too.
Hello echo.

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Mar 24, 2013, 11:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
I didn't say there was. Don't put words in my mouth.
If only the solution to all crime was easy eh?

Guns make it easier to commit many crimes. When crime is easier to commit, it takes less social or economic pressure to push people to commit those crimes.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Mar 24, 2013, 12:51 PM
 
Taiwan also has a gun/drug/you name it smuggling problem, and its an island.
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Mar 24, 2013, 02:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Guns make it easier to commit many crimes. When crime is easier to commit, it takes less social or economic pressure to push people to commit those crimes.
On the contrary. If I own a gun, it is much harder to commit a crime against me.

Illegal guns make it easier to commit crimes.
Legal guns make it harder.

Outlawing guns will only affect one of those two categories.
     
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Mar 24, 2013, 08:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
If only the solution to all crime was easy eh?
Thats the point I was making. Solving crime isn't easy. If someone tries to sell you an easy way out they're lying.
     
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Mar 25, 2013, 07:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
The problem is crime. Not gun crime. Stop crime and you stop gun crime. Stop the deranged lunatics and you'll stop the deranged lunatics on shooting sprees.
I'd go a step further and say the cause of crime is a FUBARed society where we have broken families, no religion, crappy schools, no values, and idolizing bad behavior (e.g. hollywood, musicians, reality show people, etc.)...among other things.
"Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to stay on my toes." Frank Drebin, Naked Gun 33 1/3: The Final Insult
     
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Mar 25, 2013, 08:09 AM
 
Enforce the borders. Make Eric (with)Holder go and get all those guns back from the failed Fast n Furious.

ATF - Another Terrible Failure
     
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Mar 25, 2013, 11:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
Gun control as I see it is the intersection of the hippies and the oligarchs who want no one or only certain people respectively to have guns. It doesn't actually do anything to solve the problem. It sounds good though.
Then you see it wrong. Gun control is about making sure guns stay in the hands of safe and responsible citizens.

Does this mean liberals don't have a habit of overreacting with gun control legislation? No.


Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
So in order for gun bans to work we need a world wide gun ban? I'm kinda surprised if this doesn't scare even liberals.
No one said gun bans.

Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Well we kinda need to specify what kind of gun control we're talking about then. In Chicago they're banned; in Mex they're for all practical purposes banned. Many people won't be satisfied with anything other than bans, while others are satisfied with tighter controls. There's a big difference between the two and everything in between.
True. I would say "reasonable" but that means nothing. For myself I mean less than an AWB but more than non-uniform background checks.

Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Gangs don't do drive bys or hold border agents hostage with weapons they got from "us" at the neighborhood dealer.
Actually the majority of illegal guns in the US can be traced back to legal dealers.
     
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Mar 25, 2013, 12:46 PM
 
Love what Ted Cruz had to say to Diane Feinstein a couple weeks ago:

Originally Posted by Ted Cruz (R, TX)
The question that I would pose to the senior senator from California is Would she deem it consistent with the Bill of Rights for Congress to engage in the same endeavor that we are contemplating doing with the Second Amendment in the context of the First or Fourth Amendment, namely, would she consider it constitutional for Congress to specify that the First Amendment shall apply only to the following books and shall not apply to the books that Congress has deemed outside the protection of the Bill of Rights? Likewise, would she think that the Fourth Amendment’s protection against searches and seizures could properly apply only to the following specified individuals and not to the individuals that Congress has deemed outside the protection of the Bill of Rights?
...
When a legislator is forced to use emotion and insults -- rather than the law -- it is a tacit admission that her argument is a sham.

Tell me, Ms. Feinstein: which "military-style assault weapons" used at the time of America's founding were banned by the Framers?
"Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to stay on my toes." Frank Drebin, Naked Gun 33 1/3: The Final Insult
     
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Mar 25, 2013, 01:09 PM
 
I wonder what Republican Jesus' reason for endorsing the last Assault Weapons Ban was.
     
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Mar 25, 2013, 01:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by cgc View Post
Love what Ted Cruz had to say to Diane Feinstein a couple weeks ago:
Don't omit the responses he got:

Sen. Charles Schumer
In reference to the question my colleague from Texas asked, would you limit books? Would you name specific books? Yeah. It’s constitutional within the ambit of the First Amendment to eliminate child pornography. And we have lots of laws that are very explicit about that. Very explicit. That are constitutional, that have been upheld as constitutional. Similarly, you can’t falsely scream fire in a crowded theater. Similarly, we have libel laws. Every one of these is an impingement on the sacred First Amendment, upheld as constitutional. There are reasonable limits on each amendment, and I think it is anomalous, to put it kindly, for either side to interpret one amendment so expansively and another amendment so narrowly that it just doesn’t add up because your interpretation of the Constitution should be consistent.
Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse
It is hard to imagine that it would be a violation of the First Amendment for somebody to yell fire in a crowded theater but it’s not a violation of the Second Amendment to prevent somebody from bringing a hundred-round magazine into a crowded theater in a Aurora, Colorado.
     
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Mar 25, 2013, 01:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Demonhood View Post
Don't omit the responses he got:
Libel came to mind immediately. Didn't make the movie theater connection, though.
     
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Mar 25, 2013, 02:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
On the contrary. If I own a gun, it is much harder to commit a crime against me.
Its slightly harder under certain circumstances. If I have a gun too and I want to shoot you, I'll just make sure to do it when you don't expect me to. From a long way away.


Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Illegal guns make it easier to commit crimes.
Legal guns make it harder.
Outlawing guns will only affect one of those two categories.
First it affects one, but then it will effect the other. Its called seeing the bigger picture.

I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Mar 25, 2013, 02:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
Thats the point I was making. Solving crime isn't easy. If someone tries to sell you an easy way out they're lying.
But reducing gun crime drastically is simple. Not easy, but simple.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Mar 25, 2013, 02:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by cgc View Post
I'd go a step further and say the cause of crime is a FUBARed society where we have broken families, no religion, crappy schools, no values, and idolizing bad behavior (e.g. hollywood, musicians, reality show people, etc.)...among other things.
Religion is never the answer. It never was and it never will be. Its one of the things making your schools crappier actually. The values would come with a better educated populace and with luck the misplaced hero worship would drop too.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Mar 25, 2013, 02:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
But reducing gun crime drastically is simple. Not easy, but simple.
Does it really matter what weapon is used in the crime? It doesn't to me.
     
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Mar 25, 2013, 03:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Religion is never the answer. It never was and it never will be. Its one of the things making your schools crappier actually. The values would come with a better educated populace and with luck the misplaced hero worship would drop too.
Religion belongs in the home and is important to many as it teaches values, provides hope, and gives children and adults an example of what to do (as well as what not to do).
"Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to stay on my toes." Frank Drebin, Naked Gun 33 1/3: The Final Insult
     
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Mar 25, 2013, 03:36 PM
 
Sounds stupid:

"It is hard to imagine that it would be a violation of the First Amendment for somebody to yell fire in a crowded theater but it’s not a violation of the Second Amendment to prevent somebody from bringing a hundred-round magazine into a crowded theater in a Aurora, Colorado. "

Bring the magazine, leave the GUN in the car. Words mean things. Perhaps a mis-speak, or theatrics and stupidity?
     
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Mar 25, 2013, 03:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Its slightly harder under certain circumstances. If I have a gun too and I want to shoot you, I'll just make sure to do it when you don't expect me to. From a long way away.
If you want to murder me specifically, you'll find a way gun or not. Shooting someone under most circumstances is illegal. Still happens though, doesn't it? The situation you've outlined is already against the law.

If you're trying to rob a house, yes, the fact that I'm armed will make it much more difficult, and with dire consequences. i.e., you're more likely to rob the house next door that doesn't have a means of defending themselves. Easy pickins and virtually no risk at the time of the robbery.



First it affects one, but then it will effect the other. Its called seeing the bigger picture.
Indeed, the bigger picture.

How will outlawing guns reduce the number of illegal guns? You know, with 3D printing technology on the horizon, how do you expect to stop people from illegally printing guns? They've already got working prototypes out of these things.
     
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Mar 26, 2013, 06:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
Does it really matter what weapon is used in the crime? It doesn't to me.
You can't be shot from half a mile away with a baseball bat.
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Mar 26, 2013, 08:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
You can't be shot from half a mile away with a baseball bat.
That's not the reason guns are used to attack people versus baseball bats. It's that guns are much less personal, hands-on, and gruesome.
"Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to stay on my toes." Frank Drebin, Naked Gun 33 1/3: The Final Insult
     
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Mar 26, 2013, 11:45 AM
 
Pistols are used because you can hide them. Bats, swords, and rifles are hard to hide.
     
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Mar 26, 2013, 12:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
Pistols are used because you can hide them. Bats, swords, and rifles are hard to hide.
There's always knives.

But no one seems to be bringing up the difference in deadliness, oddly.
     
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Mar 26, 2013, 12:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
You can't be shot from half a mile away with a baseball bat.
What percentage of gun murders are committed from a half mile away with an otherwise legal gun? Quarter mile? I'd put money on it being less then a tenth of a tenth of a percent.
     
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Mar 27, 2013, 01:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
You know, with 3D printing technology on the horizon, how do you expect to stop people from illegally printing guns? They've already got working prototypes out of these things.
Apply this logic to pipebombs and it instantly falls apart. Clearly, laws against pipebombs are totally pointless.
     
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Mar 27, 2013, 05:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
If only the solution to all crime was easy eh?

Guns make it easier to commit many crimes. When crime is easier to commit, it takes less social or economic pressure to push people to commit those crimes.
Bullshit, a gun is just a tool it does not make it easier or harder. The cause of the crime which tends to be economic is the "cause" of the crime. The tools are interchangeable. Take away the guns they use bats and knives. The only difference is the degree of damage and death involved when the gun itself is used. Its quick and does a lot of damage and easily kills better when used. The crimes will have happened regardless of what weapon the person had access to. If they are a drug addict and need money for drugs nothings stopping them from robbing some one. No death penalty, no 25 years to life sentence, no gun prohibition is going to stop that crime.
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
 
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