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NSA Phone Record Dragnet
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Clinically Insane
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Jun 6, 2013, 03:19 AM
 
     
Mac Elite
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Jun 6, 2013, 03:57 AM
 
I like that the government doesn't have to lay a claim to laws governing this kind of behaviour, they can "secretly claim"so you don't even know that there's a debate. I guess they can "secret claim" pretty much anything they want. It's the super grown up version of having your fingers crossed behind your back.
     
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Jun 6, 2013, 08:49 AM
 
Four more years! Four more years! Four more years!

Wait... four more years?
ebuddy
     
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Jun 6, 2013, 09:41 AM
 
Nor should it be. We've known since at least 2006 that the NSA has been collecting this data.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 6, 2013, 12:46 PM
 
To be fair though, we've changed presidents since then, and the one we have (unlike the one we had) made claims they would reverse course.
     
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Jun 6, 2013, 12:56 PM
 
The court order is from april 2013
Verizon forced to hand over telephone data – full court ruling | World news | guardian.co.uk

Still, it makes this prophetic.

     
subego  (op)
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Jun 6, 2013, 01:22 PM
 
As far as can be told, it's one of a long line of reauthorizations going back to 2007.
     
OAW
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Jun 6, 2013, 01:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
As far as can be told, it's one of a long line of reauthorizations going back to 2007.
Indeed.

Senators say Verizon monitoring ‘nothing new’ - POLITICO.com

OAW
     
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Jun 6, 2013, 01:44 PM
 
I was going to make a thread about this.

It's extremely troubling to me, no matter who's to blame. This has far reaching implications and IMO, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
     
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Jun 6, 2013, 01:49 PM
 
Land of the Free.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.
- George Washington
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 6, 2013, 03:13 PM
 
That's not the whole quote.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action, except when we need to kick some Muslim ass.
- George Washington
     
OAW
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Jun 6, 2013, 03:15 PM
 
^^^^^

OAW
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 6, 2013, 03:43 PM
 


Gee, thanks Clipper Chip guy.
     
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Jun 6, 2013, 09:31 PM
 
There's more.

They had access to nine companies' central servers as well:

Reports: U.S. spy agencies mined Internet data - CNN.com
     
Mac Elite
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Jun 7, 2013, 05:01 AM
 
heh. You Americans and your "Freedom"
     
Clinically Insane
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Jun 7, 2013, 01:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
heh. You Americans and your "Freedom"
You Brits have enough to freak out over (much more than us), all on your own.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
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Jun 7, 2013, 01:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by shaddim View Post
you brits have enough to freak out over (much more than us), all on your own.
lmfao.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 7, 2013, 01:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
You Brits have enough to freak out over (much more than us), all on your own.
Hence the Brits not pimping their freedom all the time.

What's our excuse?
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 7, 2013, 02:38 PM
 
I am at least mildly heartened people seem to care, however it remains to be seen whether this has legs.

I predict it will have much to do with how long it takes for us to get distracted.
     
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Jun 7, 2013, 02:44 PM
 
Will the info be used against political opponents? We used to think our tax info wouldn't be either.
     
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Jun 7, 2013, 03:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Will the info be used against political opponents? We used to think our tax info wouldn't be either.
Be careful speaking out against them BadKosh. i'm quite sure someone at some agency is reviewing these posts, and you don't want to make their "terrorist" list. /tinfoil
     
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Jun 7, 2013, 04:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Be careful speaking out against them BadKosh. i'm quite sure someone at some agency is reviewing these posts, and you don't want to make their "terrorist" list. /tinfoil
He's already on it.
     
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Jun 7, 2013, 04:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
He's already on it.
Right behind my name I'm sure. I had the audacity to purchase a gun after sandy hook.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 7, 2013, 04:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Will the info be used against political opponents? We used to think our tax info wouldn't be either.
Did you have a problem when Bu$h Büsh bUSh did it?
     
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Jun 7, 2013, 06:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Did you have a problem when Bu$h Büsh bUSh did it?
Of course not, the right wing can be trusted to Do The Right Thing.
     
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Jun 7, 2013, 08:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
There's more.

They had access to nine companies' central servers as well:

Reports: U.S. spy agencies mined Internet data - CNN.com
You know what's really scary about this? Microsoft wants to put an always on camera in your home via the Xbox one - the system does not work without the camera. If they were forced to allow access to the NSA via clandestine court? Microsoft would not be legally allowed to inform you of this.

Scary.
     
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Jun 8, 2013, 07:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
You know what's really scary about this? Microsoft wants to put an always on camera in your home via the Xbox one - the system does not work without the camera. If they were forced to allow access to the NSA via clandestine court? Microsoft would not be legally allowed to inform you of this.

Scary.
Agree, which is why I will not be allowing the Xbox ONE in my house.
     
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Jun 8, 2013, 10:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
Agree, which is why I will not be allowing the Xbox ONE in my house.
I've had other friends of mine make this exact statement. They will either identify a hack for it or go without... period.
ebuddy
     
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Jun 8, 2013, 12:21 PM
 
or use a small strip of electrical tape or putty?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
OAW
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Jun 8, 2013, 12:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
or use a small strip of electrical tape or putty?
There is that.

OAW
     
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Jun 8, 2013, 01:40 PM
 
Monitoring of communications dates back to the Kennedy/Johnson era and the creation of ECHELON
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Jun 8, 2013, 06:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Monitoring of communications dates back to the Kennedy/Johnson era and the creation of ECHELON
This. Al Gore is either very poor of memory or blatantly hypocritical in tweeting the way he did, as bulk monitoring of all sorts of communications was certainly going on during his time as VP. Since ECHELON began, more and more communication has been subject to monitoring in more and more sophisticated ways, to the extent that as a new communication technology becomes common, NSA will either already be monitoring it, or will be ready to soon afterward.

The uproar over this monitoring is sort of like being upset that others may hear you speak to someone else in public. Cell phone conversations are encrypted to prevent casual or criminally oriented eavesdropping. Online postings are similarly protected, to one extent or another, to prevent "bad guys" from taking advantage of your online activities to victimize you. These are all much more protection than we have from being overheard in public, face-to-face conversations.

The flip side of "everything is monitored" is that there is an awful lot of "everything" to sift through. NSA certainly doesn't have unlimited resources or time, so their task is to look for specific kinds of communications that might be related to bad things, particularly terror threats. So they sift through billions of bytes a minute until they find a hint of something, then follow that hint until it proves worthless, or, very very rarely, pays off. Further, the collection of phone records probably ONLY consists of number called, and start and stop times, since collecting the actual calls requires several orders of magnitude more effort and many orders of magnitude more storage and computer processing power.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
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Jun 10, 2013, 02:44 AM
 
The whistleblower has taken the enormous risk of coming forward.

When asked why, he said he respects the democratic process, and if he's going to act outside it such as he has, it would be dangerous to that process if he did so in secret.

This man has earned some serious respect from me.
     
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Jun 10, 2013, 03:15 AM
 
I am torn between being outraged that this is going on and outraged at not being surprised that this is going on. Obama's actions are full of hypocrisy, especially given his background as a constitutional scholar and his vocal criticism of such measures. He set higher expectations than Bush 2, so now he falls from a taller height. This scandal also cements something else: Obama is much more of a centrist and the picture his right-wing critics have painted of him is just false. He is the guy who had Bin Laden shot (rather than captured). He is the president who extended the drone programs and who continued to tread the national security path that was pioneered by his predecessor.

But before people on the other side of the aisle go and party, they have to take responsibility for their role in the scandal: Congress approved and extended the PATRIOT act as well as similar laws which form the basis of the attack on civil liberties. And both sides of the aisle have consistently and repeatedly approved these measures. While the Republicans controlled Congress, they have given far-reaching powers to the executive branch. The Democrats were too scared to roll them back. When are such far-reaching powers ever culled and rolled back completely? Has there ever been discussion to not just end warrantless wiretapping, but also abolish the FISA courts whose job seemingly is to rubber stamp papers for the executive branch?

The only person who can be really proud of himself is the whistleblower who risks the same fate as Bradley Manning: years in jail. Although I think there will be more pressure from the public this time to make sure he isn't treated as inhumanely as Manning.

@Glenn
Regarding feasibility, I would just like to add that what is and isn't feasible changes every year. 20 years ago, 1 TB of storage was an insane amount that required warehouses. Now, a 1 TB hard drive is resting below my left palm. So a few years ago, it just wasn't feasible to do some of the things that can be done today, and thus, there was less of a need to restrict it.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
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Jun 10, 2013, 03:22 AM
 
Oh... he risks a whole lot more than that.

He could have half a dozen hits put on him in a second.

Next second it's his family.
     
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Jun 10, 2013, 03:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Hence the Brits not pimping their freedom all the time.
YEAH! We don't even have a constitution to ignore along the way! CCTV capital of the world baby. Of the world!
     
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Jun 10, 2013, 08:54 AM
 
Its a shame that after the billions wasted on all the snooping the Owe-bama Admin couldn't stop the Boston Bombers - Even with extra help from the Russians!!!
     
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Jun 10, 2013, 03:21 PM
 
I would be very surprised to find that what is going on today is not simply an extension of what had been going on all along, and that there is little, if any, direction from any president, current included, into how "national security critical information" is collected. NSA doesn't just sit there doing Cryptoquip all day, you know. It is their job to a) protect U.S. sensitive communications to the greatest extent possible, and b) exploit everybody else's communications to the greatest extent possible. The definition of "everybody else" has been pretty fluid for some time, since it has been shown many times over that "bad guys" at home and abroad will use any technical method they can to avoid detection in preparing their bad guy acts, whether we're talking about drug cartels or terror cells.

What I am most interested in learning is to what extent the phone carriers voluntarily provided date, and to what extent they were coerced or compelled to do so. I'm also curious if there is any indication that NSA has obtained more than just records from phone carriers; are carriers providing anything like recordings of actual calls? I doubt that NSA would have too much difficulty decrypting the protection provided to today's digital phone connections, but if they don't have to bother breaking that, it saves them time...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Jun 10, 2013, 04:18 PM
 
Well, my friends called it. They switched to handwritten or typed correspondence, mailed via private carrier, a few years ago because they feared this was going on. For anything important I'll be doing the same. McCarthy would be ecstatic.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 10, 2013, 04:50 PM
 
That's pretty unfathomable to me.

If you want a communication to be private, don't write it down.

If it needs to be written down, encrypt the **** out of it.
     
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Jun 10, 2013, 05:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
That's pretty unfathomable to me.

If you want a communication to be private, don't write it down.

If it needs to be written down, encrypt the **** out of it.
They read it, write a reply, then (if necessary) burn the original. I'm going to just assume that publically available encryption is a joke and all voice comms are being recorded. They have some pretty amazing low-tech ways of ensuring that no one reads what they're written, except the intended recipient.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
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Jun 10, 2013, 05:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
For anything important I'll be doing the same. McCarthy would be ecstatic.
No problem if you don't want to share, but what sort of stuff would you need to use this form of communication for? You're a bald Hispanic father with a car collection.
     
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Jun 10, 2013, 09:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
but what sort of stuff would you need to use this form of communication for?
It's frankly none of your business. (you being the government)
     
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Jun 10, 2013, 09:43 PM
 
mattyb is the agent of a foreign government...

I knew it!
     
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Jun 11, 2013, 12:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
It's frankly none of your business. (you being the government)
Correct answer. Hell, it may just be cookie recipes, but if I want privacy, I should get privacy.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
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Jun 11, 2013, 08:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I am torn between being outraged that this is going on and outraged at not being surprised that this is going on. Obama's actions are full of hypocrisy, especially given his background as a constitutional scholar and his vocal criticism of such measures. He set higher expectations than Bush 2, so now he falls from a taller height. This scandal also cements something else: Obama is much more of a centrist and the picture his right-wing critics have painted of him is just false. He is the guy who had Bin Laden shot (rather than captured). He is the president who extended the drone programs and who continued to tread the national security path that was pioneered by his predecessor.
I guess that depends on how you define left or right-wing. Bush carried out Clinton's regime-change doctrine for Iraq and managed to avoid fire-bombing a compound of American dissidents, but that doesn't make Bush "more left" or "centrist". It's not as if tyrannical governments are the product of those who want a constitutionally-limited government and lower taxes. You're right that Obama is not what people thought he was, but I wouldn't call it "more centrist" than they thought or "further right" than they thought just because he's willing to off a terrorist leader, implement a drone program, or expand the breadth of a warrantless wiretapping program.

I've been warning you folks for a long time never to piss off a smiling leftist.

Otherwise, right-wing critics have been vindicated more with each passing year of this Administration and yesterday's paranoid, slippery-slope conspiracy theory is today's news headline. At least the whole Benghazi thing is quiet now and the IRS issue is fading quickly.
ebuddy
     
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Jun 11, 2013, 06:41 PM
 
There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment.
How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was
guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate,
they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You had to live--did live, from habit that
became instinct--in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in
darkness, every movement scrutinized. - 1984
I can say that I hope it picks up momentum, rapidly getting worse until it all collapses. I'm not getting any younger.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
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Jun 12, 2013, 05:12 PM
 
Orwell's Thought Police were watching individuals for their actions, not looking at what is essentially aggregated data for trends and patterns. Big Brother was there to control everything about everyone. Watching for indications that a random phone number is connecting to some other number that isn't so random in some perceptible pattern is hardly Big Brotherish.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Jun 12, 2013, 05:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I can say that I hope it picks up momentum, rapidly getting worse until it all collapses. I'm not getting any younger.
For a laugh, Google "sales of 1984".
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 13, 2013, 01:37 AM
 
Steve Gibson of Security Now seems to think PRISM works by sitting right at the I/O of Google, Facebook, etc. and sucking everything up.

So, they can't tunnel directly in, but they know everything which is happening at that moment, and are saving it. If they see something which bothers them, then they "tunnel in" by subpoena, which they can do because there's a direct chain to the organization from their sniffer.

That's why it's "PRISM". It's splitting off an an exact copy at the source.
     
 
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