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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Can You Be Responsible For Your Own Rape?

Can You Be Responsible For Your Own Rape? (Page 3)
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Aug 15, 2013, 10:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
She is NOT responsible for how others interpret her presentation.
If she was wearing a blue Walmart vest and keychain hanging off a belt-loop, you'd interpret that presentation as "Walmart employee". We infer things about people based on their presentation all the time consciously or otherwise.

So while she may tone down the way she dresses, it is almost irrelevant in the eyes of a potential rapist. Her image as both you and she see it is not the issue, though avoiding being excessively provocative will help with run of the mill jerks and boors. Fact is that most rapists know their victims, and most rapists are not simply opportunists though they do look for opportunities. They victimize others out of a variety of their own issues, but the overwhelming majority of rapists have a socially accepted consensual sexual outlet, so the sexuality or attractiveness of their victims is not a major factor, and it is never an excuse to violently attack someone else.
I can appreciate your opinion, but this misses a great deal of factors.
  • AGE: 75% under age 25
  • Most are from poverty-lower class backgrounds, are products of unstable families, and are abused or neglected.
  • More than half are unskilled laborers or unemployed.
  • CRIMINAL HISTORY: Most average 2.5 priors, only 2 years served on each. Most also have history of alcohol-related charges.
  • DRUG/ALCOHOL: Noted problems in this area.

Consider the recipe I outlined earlier...
  • young girl, under 25.
  • dressing and/or acting provocatively.
  • drinking/smoking/popping/injecting too much at a party.
  • hangin' with thugs and ex-cons because they're cool or mysterious.

You and others have said that rapists usually know their victims. Yes. This is why your associations must matter. People have a tendency to network with similar people and this includes similar "presentations". Think; a younger Snooki for example. That's the common sense that I think gets lost in conversations like these and why a definition of "responsible" is in order.
ebuddy
     
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Aug 15, 2013, 10:25 PM
 
Ok, now let's take it to the obvious conclusion, subego.

The woman made the choice to be in a bad neighbourhood. The rapist made the choice to rape.

It is only the rapist that made the choice to rape, hence the only person is responsible.

If we're gonna make "choice" the end-all and be-all of the debate, then there's no question that the woman cannot be responsible regardless, because she cannot make the choice to commit the crime.
     
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Aug 15, 2013, 10:35 PM
 
Welcome to page one.
     
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Aug 16, 2013, 09:21 AM
 
I think maybe the thread title gives the wrong impression, by not acknowledging that it's talking about any responsibility, or additional responsibility, as opposed to eg "primary" responsibility for it, or "more than anyone else." It's not uncommon for people to form a response based on a thread title, and only skim the thread before posting it.
     
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Aug 16, 2013, 02:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Responsibility for what? My basic position here is that a crime victim is not "responsible" for the crime. The perpetrator bears responsibility for that. However, everyone is "responsible" for not unnecessarily endangering themselves.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Edit: though Dakar's question has struck closer than anything I've been able to come up with.
I thought it was ok. I dunno, on the previous wording I was siding more with the people who said yes, there is responsibility, but with the rephrase I'm kind of not. We getting into a situation where you're saying you feel more sympathy for a person because they were mugged here but not here. I'm not sure I'm cool with that.

BTW, I'm sorry if someone mentioned this earlier, but we're dancing around the subject of victim blaming here, aren't we?
     
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Aug 16, 2013, 02:42 PM
 
There's a difference between blaming and believing, or even saying, someone is partially responsible. While it may not be much more than tone, it's still important.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
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Aug 16, 2013, 04:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
There's a difference between blaming and believing, or even saying, someone is partially responsible. While it may not be much more than tone, it's still important.
This.

OAW
     
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Aug 16, 2013, 06:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
I think maybe the thread title gives the wrong impression, by not acknowledging that it's talking about any responsibility, or additional responsibility, as opposed to eg "primary" responsibility for it, or "more than anyone else." It's not uncommon for people to form a response based on a thread title, and only skim the thread before posting it.
There is a veritable-ass load wrong with how I designed the thread.

I don't know how the **** I imagined this working without some detailed semantic guidelines.

In terms of defending my own argument I still can't get past the basic construction of:

You know if you do X there is an high increase in the likelihood of Y.
You do X.
Y happens.
It's your fault for doing X when you knew the risks.


The only mitigating factor I can find here is a person's knowledge of the relationship between X and Y is often assumed rather than known. If a person actually thinks an action will get them raped, they won't do it. With the girl in Shaddim's story (e.g.) I'd say it's likely she didn't think her actions were going to precipitate a gang rape. The question becomes her body of survival information and the quality of her rationalizations. What if she was freshly ex-Amish? That's an extreme example, but I think it shows it's not solely the acts of passing out at a frat party in a bikini.

Even if she wasn't Amish, was she taught unconscious girls get gangbanged at frat parties? I doubt it. If she had been (and believed it) she probably wouldn't have gone to the party in the first place.

It's one thing to pass out around a single individual who you don't know well, it's another to pass out in front of a group. It's not unreasonable to think numerous witnesses will cut down on your chance of getting raped.

In fact, if that had been her thought process, she would have been exactly right. She didn't get raped because she passed out around witnesses.
     
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Aug 17, 2013, 11:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
In terms of defending my own argument I still can't get past the basic construction of:

You know if you do X there is an high increase in the likelihood of Y.
You do X.
Y happens.
It's your fault for doing X when you knew the risks.


The only mitigating factor I can find here is a person's knowledge of the relationship between X and Y is often assumed rather than known. If a person actually thinks an action will get them raped, they won't do it. With the girl in Shaddim's story (e.g.) I'd say it's likely she didn't think her actions were going to precipitate a gang rape. The question becomes her body of survival information and the quality of her rationalizations.
The person's knowledge can mitigate their culpability for crimes too. Did he know she had withdrawn consent? Did he know she was a prostitute? Did he have an insanity defense, or was mentally retarded? Etc. If it's a good enough excuse for a crime, then obviously it's a good enough excuse for these lesser non-criminal culpabilities too. Yes, the question of responsibility presumes ability, but this isn't exactly relevant unless we have reason to think this ability is rare.


What if she was freshly ex-Amish?
I don't know the Amish that well, but if they know anything it is the significance of keeping their sexuality and intoxication in check (to assume they didn't know this was a choice they could make, and why, seems backwards to me). And if the question is whether the Amish know about the concept of rape, I think it's pretty naive to think that there are no Amish rapists.

It's not unreasonable to think numerous witnesses will cut down on your chance of getting raped.

In fact, if that had been her thought process, she would have been exactly right. She didn't get raped because she passed out around witnesses.
You lost me.
     
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Aug 17, 2013, 01:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
There seems to be a lot of discussion about "being in a bad neighbourhood" here and that somehow relates to the responsibility of being raped. This seems very much like a problem only privileged people suffer from.
Oh my glob. Ok, a female migrant worker, here illegally in the US, is forced to live in the old servant's quarters located behind phi kappa phi. During rush week, she decides to take a short cut home by cutting through the massive party they're having on the front lawn...

New, Improved and Legal in 50 States
     
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Aug 17, 2013, 06:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
The person's knowledge can mitigate their culpability for crimes too. Did he know she had withdrawn consent? Did he know she was a prostitute? Did he have an insanity defense, or was mentally retarded? Etc. If it's a good enough excuse for a crime, then obviously it's a good enough excuse for these lesser non-criminal culpabilities too. Yes, the question of responsibility presumes ability, but this isn't exactly relevant unless we have reason to think this ability is rare.



I don't know the Amish that well, but if they know anything it is the significance of keeping their sexuality and intoxication in check (to assume they didn't know this was a choice they could make, and why, seems backwards to me). And if the question is whether the Amish know about the concept of rape, I think it's pretty naive to think that there are no Amish rapists.


You lost me.
I'm confused. Did I imply someone was still responsible when consent had been withdrawn without their knowledge? I related a personal story about this very subject. I don't understand your point.

I'm not saying the Amish are unfamiliar with rape, I'm saying it doesn't happen at Amish frat parties, because there is no such thing as an Amish frat, and even if there was, bikinis would not be allowed. Almost everything which went on at that party would be a new experience for her, which she had little to no knowledge of the effects due to her upbringing.

WRT my last point, I'm saying if an individual intends to rape you, passing out alone with that individual means you'll get raped. If you pass out in front of a group containing that individual, there is a lesser chance of getting raped because the rapist will not want witnesses, or the act will somehow be interfered with.

Her thought process may have been "if I pass out in a frat guy's bedroom, I'll get raped. If I pass out here in the living room (or wherever) the quantity of people make it less likely".

We don't know her thought process, but that's what happened. Because she passed out in a room full of people, and there was a Shaddim there to stop it, she didn't get raped.
( Last edited by subego; Aug 17, 2013 at 07:23 PM. )
     
subego  (op)
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Aug 17, 2013, 06:20 PM
 
@Shaddim

You can tell me to **** off with my two-bit Internet psychology, but I get a sense one of the things you feel the girl at the party is responsible for is putting you in danger. I've been in 10-on-one situations. Not fun.
     
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Aug 18, 2013, 01:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm confused. Did I imply someone was still responsible when consent had been withdrawn without their knowledge?
No the opposite, you were trying too hard to find a solution that was already found (how you can't be responsible for something you had no way of knowing about).


I'm not saying the Amish are unfamiliar with rape, I'm saying it doesn't happen at Amish frat parties
Irrelevant, unless you are claiming either that the Amish person would believe that the baseline level of rape would be lower at a frat party, or that they don't believe there is any baseline level of rape and don't know to expect it to be higher than that at (what they observe from what we refer to as) a frat party. Neither of those are reasonable.


WRT my last point,..
Sorry I had forgotten the conclusion of Shaddim's story.
     
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Aug 18, 2013, 03:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
@Shaddim

You can tell me to **** off with my two-bit Internet psychology, but I get a sense one of the things you feel the girl at the party is responsible for is putting you in danger. I've been in 10-on-one situations. Not fun.
That goes without saying, but it wasn't wholly the issue.
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Aug 18, 2013, 10:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
No the opposite, you were trying too hard to find a solution that was already found (how you can't be responsible for something you had no way of knowing about).



Irrelevant, unless you are claiming either that the Amish person would believe that the baseline level of rape would be lower at a frat party, or that they don't believe there is any baseline level of rape and don't know to expect it to be higher than that at (what they observe from what we refer to as) a frat party. Neither of those are reasonable.



Sorry I had forgotten the conclusion of Shaddim's story.
I'm still utterly lost on the first part.

With the second part, what I'm saying is the Amish girl's baseline for rape is it being something which happens in private, not in the middle of the barn at the same time it's being used for a group sing-along.

Likewise, while some Amish drink, public drinking to excess is a big no-no across the board. I'm pretty sure they don't smoke the wildwood weed that often either. She very easily could have had no experience with either of these drugs, and thus had no idea of what quantity would take her out. If she came from a hardcore enclave, may have had no experience with booze and drugs taking people out at all.
     
 
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