Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > What's the deal with Pope Francis?

What's the deal with Pope Francis? (Page 3)
Thread Tools
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 06:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Pope Francis on the ordination of women.
Hence Vatican III.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 10:31 PM
 
I'm not so sure Chongo is interested in making us hate the Pope so much as making sure he likes him.
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 10:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Hence Vatican III.
What doctrines/dogmas were changed by Vatican II? None
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 10:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm not so sure Chongo is interested in making us hate the Pope so much as making sure he likes him.
I like Pope Francis very much.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 21, 2013, 02:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
What doctrines/dogmas were changed by Vatican II? None
I'm saying there would need to be a Catholic council. Wow, you really do want some people to dislike him... Geez...
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 21, 2013, 02:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I like Pope Francis very much.
That's good (no snark).

I'm mildly concerned if he continues to display the kinds of behavior most in this thread are approving of you may like him less.
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 21, 2013, 08:43 AM
 
Pope Francis is not saying anything new.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...pe-quotes.html
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 21, 2013, 05:16 PM
 
Hence my concern.

It seems exceedingly important to you he doesn't say something new, and there's the teeny-weeniest possibility he may.
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 21, 2013, 10:04 PM
 
And what would that be?
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 21, 2013, 10:46 PM
 
Civil unions and priests with girly parts are kosher.
     
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 21, 2013, 11:15 PM
 
All I'm getting from this conversation, is that maybe Francis is more of a politician than his recent public statements imply. If he's saying new-age mellow stuff in public, but has followed the party line in the past, then is he a philosophical flip flopper? Is his current public persona a calculated ploy, and if so, and if he really doesn't believe what he's saying, then what is there to gain?

A mellower church is one that perhaps regains more followers who have become unitarians.
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 22, 2013, 05:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Civil unions and priests with girly parts are kosher.
Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, John Paul II, 22 May 1994 - Apostolic Letter

4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church's judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.
Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.

There have been a flurry of stories reporting that, in 2010, when he was still a cardinal, Pope Francis supported the idea of civil unions for homosexuals.
What are we to make of this?


Read more: Pope Francis on Homosexual Unions |Blogs | NCRegister.com
Document cited in article

Considerations Regarding Proposals To Give Legal Recognition To Unions Between Homosexual Persons

We've been told this would never happen

LONDON — Following legislation that permits same-sex “marriage” in the U.K. yet prohibits the Church of England from performing the ceremony, two men are planning to sue to be able to marry in their church.


Read more: Same-Sex Couple to Sue Church of England for Marriage Rights | Daily News | NCRegister.com
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 22, 2013, 11:20 AM
 
I don't know how female Catholics can reconcile the whole "no women" thing. Sorry, that is just super lame.
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 22, 2013, 01:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
You think a lot of atheists are reading that? Also, that was 20 years ago. This is is exactly what I mean by saying not doing a good job of communicating
Hence the call for a "New Evangelization"

Catholic Digest | The Magazine for Catholic Living | What Is The New Evangelization?

The Church was "behind the curve" when it came to TV and radio. Mother Angelica and EWTN has taken great steps to get up to par with our separated brethren. EWTN has recently launched a nightly news show as well.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 22, 2013, 01:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I don't know how female Catholics can reconcile the whole "no women" thing. Sorry, that is just super lame.
Look how well it's worked for the Church of England/Anglican Communion. The C of E is splintering to the point that whole parishes began petitioning Rome to join the Church, B16 issued Anglicanorum Coetibus, an apostolic constitution that allows for the creation of ordinariates so that those who wish, can come into full communion with the Church. There are ordinariates for the US and the UK. Austrians are asking for the creation of an odrinariate. Both the US and UK ordinariates are lead by, GASP, married priests! (but are not Bishops) The Parochial Vicar for my parish is a former Anglican priest. (married with kids)

The Oriental Catholic Churches allow married men to be ordained as well. If their wife dies, they are not allowed to marry again. Single men ordained in the Oriental Rites take a vow off celibacy just like Latin Rite priest/deacons. Married priests can not be elevated to Bishop in an Rite.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 22, 2013, 01:36 PM
 
You've lost me.

Since JPII declared girly priests are not acceptable, wouldn't F declaring they are be "new"?
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 22, 2013, 01:45 PM
 
Married priests are definitely one of those things where my cynicism rears it's head.

I think the church doesn't want to foot the bill for wives and kids.

Lots of kids. Catholic family sized, no birth control, zoos full of kids.
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 22, 2013, 01:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
You've lost me.

Since JPII declared girly priests are not acceptable, wouldn't F declaring they are be "new"?
When asked on the plane returning from World Youth Day (where he said Mass before one million people)

His response was
“The church has spoken on this matter. The door is closed.”
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 22, 2013, 02:09 PM
 
Yes. Since he's declared that, flipping 180° would be "new", no?
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 22, 2013, 02:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Yes. Since he's declared that, flipping 180° would be "new", no?
Might be heretical as well
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 22, 2013, 02:38 PM
 
Exactly. That's my point in saying you may not continue to like the Pope.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 22, 2013, 03:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
The Oriental Catholic Churches allow married men to be ordained as well. If their wife dies, they are not allowed to marry again. Single men ordained in the Oriental Rites take a vow off celibacy just like Latin Rite priest/deacons. Married priests can not be elevated to Bishop in an Rite.
Incorrect. The US Metropolitan of the Maronite Catholic Church is married and has a son, I know because I had dinner with his family 3-4 months ago. Many Oriental Orthodox jurisdictions allow priests to remarry, depending on the circumstances of their being single again (Divorced = No, widowed = with dispensation). It's more complicated than you're led to believe.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 22, 2013, 03:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Exactly. That's my point in saying you may not continue to like the Pope.
It isn't heresy, they're already in communion with churches who allow ordained women.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 22, 2013, 05:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
It isn't heresy, they're already in communion with churches who allow ordained women.
What church would that be?
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 22, 2013, 06:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Incorrect. The US Metropolitan of the Maronite Catholic Church is married and has a son, I know because I had dinner with his family 3-4 months ago. Many Oriental Orthodox jurisdictions allow priests to remarry, depending on the circumstances of their being single again (Divorced = No, widowed = with dispensation). It's more complicated than you're led to believe.
Yes, divorced men can be ordained if their marriage has received a declaration of nullity. When Fr. Vietor was ordained, he posted a video on the parish website in which he said "if my wife were to die, god forbid, I would not be allowed to marry again"

The name of US Metropolitan of the Maronite Catholic Church please. I can find only the Bishops of the Eparchy of St Maron (Brooklyn) and the Eparchy of Our Lady of Lebanon (St Louis) If you can't, I can ask a friend of mine who's cousin is a Chorbishop in the Maronite Church. I was present when Chorbishop Faris baptized both his children

The only Oriental Metropolitan i can find is that of the Byzantine Rite (Pittsburg) and to my knowledge is not married. BTW I watched his consecration on EWTN. The Byzantine Rite mass is quite amazing.

St. John's Byzantine Catholic Cathedral - Ruthenian Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 12:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Yes, divorced men can be ordained if their marriage has received a declaration of nullity. When Fr. Vietor was ordained, he posted a video on the parish website in which he said "if my wife were to die, god forbid, I would not be allowed to marry again"

The name of US Metropolitan of the Maronite Catholic Church please. I can find only the Bishops of the Eparchy of St Maron (Brooklyn) and the Eparchy of Our Lady of Lebanon (St Louis) If you can't, I can ask a friend of mine who's cousin is a Chorbishop in the Maronite Church. I was present when Chorbishop Faris baptized both his children

The only Oriental Metropolitan i can find is that of the Byzantine Rite (Pittsburg) and to my knowledge is not married. BTW I watched his consecration on EWTN. The Byzantine Rite mass is quite amazing.

St. John's Byzantine Catholic Cathedral - Ruthenian Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Victor Mar Michael Herron

Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
What church would that be?
The Armenian Catholic Church ordains women as deacons, as does the Maronite Church, and the Syro-Malankara Church has had full "Mothers" consecrating the Holy Eucharist, as well as performing marriages, funerals, and baptisms, for over 150 years.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 01:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Victor Mar Michael Herron

The Armenian Catholic Church ordains women as deacons, as does the Maronite Church, and the Syro-Malankara Church has had full "Mothers" consecrating the Holy Eucharist, as well as performing marriages, funerals, and baptisms, for over 150 years.
The Antiochian Catholic Church in America in not in communion with the See of Rome.



An article from the LA times
The real reason there won't be women priests - Los Angeles Times
A lot of the commentary about the election of the next pope has focused on the possibility — or, more often, impossibility — that Benedict XVI’s successor would allow women to be ordained to the priesthood.

The usual reason given for the poor prospects for women priests is that Benedict has packed the College of Cardinals with “conservatives” who oppose the idea. But even if Benedict (and Pope John Paul II before him) had chosen more feminist-friendly cardinals, the notion that the next pope would even consider ordaining women as priests is unthinkable — and for a reason almost no one discusses.

That reason is the attitude of the tradition-revering churches rooted in the Eastern Roman Empire. This group comprises not only Eastern Orthodox churches, which definitively broke with the pope in 1054, but other ancient Eastern churches that over the centuries parted ways with both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, a group that includes the Coptic Orthodox Church in Egypt and the Armenian Apostolic Church. Then there are the so-called Eastern Rite Catholic churches which recognize the authority of the pope in Rome but follow Eastern traditions (including a married priesthood).


Of the 117 cardinals under the age of 80 who will choose Benedict’s successors, only four are bishops from Eastern Catholic churches — the retired Coptic Catholic patriarch of Alexandria in Egypt (not to be confused with the Coptic Orthodox pope), the patriarch of the Maronite Church in Lebanon and two archbishops from Eastern-rite churches in India. A fifth Eastern-Rite cardinal, retired Major Archbishop Lubomyr Husar of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, just missed participating in the election. He turns 80 on Feb. 26, two days before Benedict’s resignation becomes effective.

But while their representation in the College of Cardinals may be small, Eastern Rite Catholics are an important link to non-Catholic Eastern Christians, with whom they sometimes worship in places such as Iraq. They also are a reminder of the golden age of an undivided Christian church, before disputes over papal authority and abstruse questions about the nature of Christ led bishops to withdraw “communion” from one another.

Reunion between the Roman Catholic Church and estranged Eastern churches — a priority of the “liberal” Second Vatican Council as well as the “conservative” John Paul II and Benedict XVI — would be unthinkable if Rome decided to ordain women as priests. More than that, such a decision likely would drive Eastern-Rite Catholics out of communion with Rome. Finally, such a decision would allow the patriarch of Constantinople and other Eastern prelates to boast that, unlike the pope (“the first Protestant,” according to an old Orthodox gibe), the East had held fast to Catholic tradition while Rome strayed. No pope, liberal or conservative, would want to give the East those bragging rights.
One of the two Eastern Rite Churches in India Church mentioned in the article is the Syro-Malankara Church.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 03:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
The Antiochian Catholic Church in America in not in communion with the See of Rome.
I didn't say it was, I said that an Oriental Orthodox Church allowed a married man to become an archbishop.

An article from the LA times
The real reason there won't be women priests - Los Angeles Times


One of the two Eastern Rite Churches in India Church mentioned in the article is the Syro-Malankara Church.
That doesn't refute what I said, you're just saying "there aren't enough of them to matter".
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 10:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I didn't say it was, I said that an Oriental Orthodox Church allowed a married man to become an archbishop.
You said the "US Metropolitan of the Maronite Church" Very different from the Antiochian Catholic Church in America.


That doesn't refute what I said, you're just saying "there aren't enough of them to matter".
This refutes it

VATICAN CITY, MAY 30, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Here is the general decree of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on the automatic excommunication for the attempted ordination of women, published in today's print edition of L'Osservatore Romano.

* * *

On the Delict of Attempted Sacred Ordination of a Woman

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in virtue of the special faculty granted to it by the Supreme Authority of the Church (cf. Can. 30, Code of Canon Law), in order to safeguard the nature and validity of the sacrament of Holy Orders, decreed, in the Ordinary Session of December 19, 2007:

In accordance with what is disposed by Can. 1378 of the Code of Canon Law, he who shall have attempted to confer holy orders on a woman, as well as the woman who may have attempted to receive Holy Orders, incurs in a latae sententiae excommunication, reserved to the Apostolic See.

If he who shall have attempted to confer Holy Orders on a woman or if the woman who shall have attempted to received Holy Orders is a faithful bound to the Code of Canons of the Oriental Churches, he is to be punished with the major excommunication, whose remission remains reserved to the Apostolic See, in accordance with can. 1443 of the same Code (cf. can. 1423, Code of Canons of the Oriental Churches).

The present decree enters in force immediately after its publication in L'Osservatore Romano.

William Cardinal Levada
Prefect

Angelo Amato, s.d.b.
Titular Archbishop of Sila
Secretary
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 03:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
You said the "US Metropolitan of the Maronite Church" Very different from the Antiochian Catholic Church in America.
Whatever, he's still an Oriental Orthodox Archbishop who is married.

This refutes it
No it doesn't refute it, that just shows that idiot Levada had a bee up his butt. He was canned from that job after that, you know. Partly because he'd been hiding priests who had raped little boys, but also because he pissed off the wrong people.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 03:48 PM
 
If

What someone says today ≠ What someone said yesterday

then

What someone says today > What someone said yesterday

whether they are playing politics or being a flipflopper is another topic.
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 04:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Whatever, he's still an Oriental Orthodox Archbishop who is married.
That may be, but he is not a bishop in communion with the see of Rome. The two men who lead the US and UK Anglican Use Ordinariates were C of E and Anglican Bishops. They were Ordained as Priests, but not as Bishops because they are married. They were given the title of Monsignor. I did some rooting around on the Catholic Answers web site and confirmed what I have been saying.

No it doesn't refute it, that just shows that idiot Levada had a bee up his butt. He was canned from that job after that, you know. Partly because he'd been hiding priests who had raped little boys, but also because he pissed off the wrong people.
That does not change Canon law.

in accordance with what is disposed by Can. 1378 of the Code of Canon Law, he who shall have attempted to confer holy orders on a woman, as well as the woman who may have attempted to receive Holy Orders, incurs in a latae sententiae excommunication, reserved to the Apostolic See.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
If

What someone says today ≠ What someone said yesterday

then

What someone says today > What someone said yesterday

whether they are playing politics or being a flipflopper is another topic.
Not when it comes to the bible! That's why you should always obey the Old testament first and New testament second ; )
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 05:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Not when it comes to the bible! That's why you should always obey the Old testament first and New testament second ; )
Oral, that you?!?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 05:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
That may be, but he is not a bishop in communion with the see of Rome. The two men who lead the US and UK Anglican Use Ordinariates were C of E and Anglican Bishops. They were Ordained as Priests, but not as Bishops because they are married. They were given the title of Monsignor. I did some rooting around on the Catholic Answers web site and confirmed what I have been saying.
Oh, and the Patriarch of Antioch (Ignatius Zakka I Iwas) has a whole mess of married bishops and archbishops. Can't believe I forgot those guys.


That does not change Canon law.
Whose Canon? Half the Oriental traditions have the Gospel of Thomas (ominous silence), the Copts too.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 05:44 PM
 
I like the Copts.
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 06:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Oh, and the Patriarch of Antioch (Ignatius Zakka I Iwas) has a whole mess of married bishops and archbishops. Can't believe I forgot those guys.

Whose Canon? Half the Oriental traditions have the Gospel of Thomas (ominous silence), the Copts too.
I speak of those Churches in communion with the See of Rome. There are two Coptic Churches, one is in communion with the See of Rome. The other is a Nestorian Church.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 06:32 PM
 
Like the Armenian Orthodox, they're pretty laid back, complete opposite of the Greeks, who are often rite assholes.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 06:34 PM
 
Whose Canons?
The Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches (Latin: Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium,[1] abbreviated CCEO) is the title of the 1990 codification of the common portions of the Canon Law for the 22 of the 23 sui iuris Churches in the Catholic Church. It is divided into 30 titles and has a total of 1540 canons.[2]
The Roman or Latin rite Church is guided by its own particular Canons. The 22 sui iuris Churches which collectively make up the Eastern Catholic Churches have been invited by the Catholic Church to codify their own particular laws and submit them to the pope so that there may be a full, complete Code of all religious law within Catholicism.
Pope John Paul II promulgated CCEO on October 18, 1990, by the document Sacri Canones.[3] The Code came into force of law on October 1, 1991.[4]
In 1998, Pope John Paul II issued the motu proprio Ad Tuendam Fidem, which amended two canons (750 and 1371) of the 1983 Code of Canon Law and two canons (598 and 1436) of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, so as to add "new norms which expressly impose the obligation of upholding truths proposed in a definitive way by the Magisterium of the Church, and which also establish related canonical sanctions."
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 06:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Like the Armenian Orthodox, they're pretty laid back, complete opposite of the Greeks, who are often rite assholes.
I think they're Monophysites
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 06:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I speak of those Churches in communion with the See of Rome. There are two Coptic Churches, one is in communion with the See of Rome. The other is a Nestorian Church.
Indeed, the Gospel of Thomas is in the Coptic Orthodox Canon of scripture, I'm looking at such a Bible right now (p.1833AD). It was never officially removed, only omitted during debate 90 years ago. They're still discussing it...
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 06:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I think they're Monophysites
That's why I like them.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 06:46 PM
 
On the "Gospel of Thomas"

Why isn't the Gospel of Thomas in the Bible? | Catholic Answers

Full Question

Is it true that the apostle Thomas wrote a Gospel which was recently discovered in Egypt? If so, why don't we have it in our Bibles?
Answer

As far as we know, the apostle Thomas never wrote a Gospel. The writing to which you refer is spurious and was composed by a member of a gnostic sect, probably in the late second century, which explains why it's not in the Bible. It was discovered, along with many other writings, in 1946 near the village of Nag Hammadi in Egypt. Our version comes to us in Coptic, but there seems to have been a Greek original behind it.

The so-called Gospel of Thomas really isn't a Gospel at all, but a collection of 114 sayings or logia attributed to Jesus. Approximately one-fourth of these sayings are the same as those found in the canonical Gospels. Of the remainder, some are very similar to those in our Gospels, but have been adapted for gnostic purposes. Others are completely gnostic in origin and form.

While the Gospel of Thomas purports to have been written by the apostle, there's nothing to support this, and there's a great deal that argues against it. To mention only one example (and this example applies to gnostic writings in general), the milieu is all wrong. The peculiar sayings attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas are, for the most part, light-years away from the kind of thing a Jewish rabbi would have said in the Palestine of A.D. 30. Contrast this with the very Jewish flavor of Jesus' words found in the canonical Gospels.

For this reason alone, we're forced to conclude that the Gospel of Thomas doesn't compare with the canonical Gospels when it comes to telling us what Jesus really taught
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 23, 2013, 06:53 PM
 
Well, John didn't write the Gospel of John either, it didn't see the light of day in any form until over a century after his death.

Personally, I don't believe Thomas is Canonical, due to slim evidence, but I would call it Apocryphal.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 24, 2013, 01:14 AM
 
What is the deal with Pope Francis? He must not be listening to what the secular press is saying he said about this and that.
Vic priest excommunicated over teachings - Yahoo!7
A Victorian Catholic priest who spoke out against the church's positions on gay marriage and women becoming priests has been defrocked and excommunicated.

Former Western Port parish priest Greg Reynolds was this week presented with a letter from the Vatican, informing him that he had been removed from the priesthood and excommunicated from the church.

Mr Reynolds said he first fell out of favour three years ago when he voiced his support for women being allowed to become priests, contrary to the church's official stance.

He resigned from his parish in 2011, and started a group called Inclusive Catholics, which holds regular meetings in Melbourne.

Mr Reynolds has also spoken out in favour of gay marriage.

He said he had expected to be removed from the priesthood, but had not expected to be excommunicated.

"I'm a bit annoyed, if not angry, at the process or lack of process," Mr Reynolds told AAP on Saturday.

A spokesman for the Melbourne Archdiocese said the excommunication was ordered by Pope Francis.

The spokesman said the excommunication was ordered because of Mr Reynolds' public teaching about women being ordained, as well as holding communion when he was not authorised to act as a priest.

Mr Reynolds said he plans to continue his work with Inclusive Catholics, but was undecided about whether he will fight to have the excommunication overturned.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 24, 2013, 11:41 AM
 
Looks to me like he got excommunicated for starting his own sect.

As the article says right up front, he's been on the female priest stump for years.
     
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 24, 2013, 01:03 PM
 
If even atheists can get into heaven, then what does excommunication matter?
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 24, 2013, 01:08 PM
 
My understanding is excommunication isn't irrevocable.

If you straighten out and fly right, you get let back in.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 24, 2013, 01:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My understanding is excommunication isn't irrevocable.

If you straighten out and fly right, you get let back in.
Find a different pope who will let you back in, there are several.

Yeah, the Greg Reynolds' case is more complicated than what's portrayed in that article, he was openly sowing rebellion in the RCC and had been giving them the finger for years. It's a lot like being surprised that you were stung, after you've kicked the hornet's nest a few times.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 24, 2013, 01:19 PM
 
There are some scared Catholics out there right now.
     
 
Thread Tools
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:27 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2015 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2