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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > What's the deal with Pope Francis?

What's the deal with Pope Francis? (Page 7)
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Dec 4, 2013, 05:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
University is still a kid to me.
Does he look like a kid in that picture to you?
Did he espouse unfettered capitalism as Fed chairman?
Yes.
     
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Dec 4, 2013, 05:26 PM
 
Can I get a cite?
     
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Dec 4, 2013, 06:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
"Pursuit of wealth" as a term sounds problematic to me. Leaves me thinking of people who are already living comfortably concerned with getting more.
Depends on your goal, if you're pursuing wealth with the intent to also enrich the lives of others, and not just in a monetary way, then it can be a worthy pursuit. If you aren't and it's just for the sake of accumulation, or to allow for more blind consumption, then it's simple greed. Life is about choices and intent, and working to develop your conscience to try and perfect both. That isn't possible, but the importance is in the effort.

Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
For the most part, rich people in those days had to do some immoral things to become and stay wealthy.
It was a difficult thing to get a camel on its knees so it would fit through the smallest gates in the city, but it could be done and was done every day. Wealth and righteousness aren't mutually exclusive things, going by Biblical accounts Abraham was one of the most prosperous men in the world, but it requires mindfulness.

There's the parable of the master who gave gold to three servants; the first two put it to work and it increased, and he blessed them, while the third was shunned and cast out, because he only buried it to keep it safe. On the one hand that refers to people who squander natural abilities and skills, but if you're going to go by the implied interpretation of that, you shouldn't ignore the literal, either.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Anyway, that holds true more than you think today.
Sure does, but there are much more diverse means of making money today, some that are very lucrative without harming others. In the old days if you wanted to make huge profits, someone was getting robbed, literally or figuratively. Now you can just buy stocks and mutual funds. I'm pretty comfortable in saying there's a much higher percentage of decent, moral, rich folks today than there was just 100 years ago. The days of the Robber Baron capitalists aren't over, but they're on the decline.

Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I think it was Benny Hinn, maybe Joel Osteen.
Hin, absolutely. Osteen's not a bad guy and I believe he means well.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Dec 5, 2013, 07:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Can I get a cite?
No, you will not. You will get his facts, filtered through opinion (particularly useful in antagonism), and espoused as natural law. What he might be bastardizing here is the notion of unfettered market competition in realizing what is considered natural, economic equilibrium. Ayn Rand was detestable because she argued against the inevitable market distortion of a centralized authority; like indicting the Koch brothers so you'll forget the shenanigans of Soros. That sort of thing. Otherwise, Greenspan was less an ideologue than a mathematical pragmatist who enjoyed a great deal of support across both sides of the aisle.

Greenspan talks of Rand's influence in The Age of Turbulence as discussed here.
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Dec 5, 2013, 08:49 AM
 
"I still found the broader philosophy of unfettered market competition compelling, as I do to this day, but I reluctantly began to realize that if there were qualifications to my intellectual edifice, I couldn't argue that others should readily accept it."
Says it all, really.
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Dec 5, 2013, 11:22 AM
 
As an aside, not entirely unprecedented for someone to feel differently about things at varying points in their life.

I used to think Ewoks were cool.
     
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Dec 5, 2013, 10:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I used to think Ewoks were cool.
Really? You're going to do this here?
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Dec 10, 2013, 03:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
As an aside, not entirely unprecedented for someone to feel differently about things at varying points in their life.

I used to think Ewoks were cool.
I can't disagree with you here.

I used to think you were cool
     
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Dec 10, 2013, 06:32 PM
 
Still waiting on the cite...



From lpk. Disliking me needs no citation.
     
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Dec 10, 2013, 11:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Still waiting on the cite...



From lpk. Disliking me needs no citation.
I kind of like you, which is saying a lot, since I can only say that about a handful of folks on MacNN.

BTW, looks like he's not been here in ~ a week.
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Dec 11, 2013, 09:07 AM
 
     
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Dec 11, 2013, 09:10 AM
 
Good selection.
     
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Dec 11, 2013, 05:10 PM
 
Hmm... I was hoping for Snowden, but I can't fault the choice. He's stirred some shit up.
     
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Dec 11, 2013, 05:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I kind of like you, which is saying a lot, since I can only say that about a handful of folks on MacNN.
I can fix that.
     
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Dec 16, 2013, 09:28 PM
 
I tried the "Provençal" quasi-communion wafer from Water Wheel.

Fan-frigging-tastic.
     
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Dec 16, 2013, 11:13 PM
 
I love this guy!
     
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Dec 17, 2013, 07:09 AM
 
     
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Dec 22, 2013, 12:23 AM
 
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
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Dec 22, 2013, 08:01 AM
 
ebuddy
     
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Dec 22, 2013, 08:24 AM
 
I believe that's simply a lot of wishful thinking. However, when the 3rd council does kick off, I think there will be some interesting surprises.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Dec 22, 2013, 10:23 AM
 
Yes, he will declare Mary the fourth person of the quadrinity
     
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Dec 22, 2013, 11:01 AM
 
The Romans already did that. Don't get me wrong, I think Mary's alright, and you can choose to believe what you want, but from a Biblical standpoint the Co-Redemptrix stuff is nonsense.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Dec 22, 2013, 11:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
The Romans already did that. Don't get me wrong, I think Mary's alright, and you can choose to believe what you want, but from a Biblical standpoint the Co-Redemptrix stuff is nonsense.
co≠ equal to


Here is an article from Fr. Dwight Longenecker. ( a former Anglican Priest and graduate of Bob Jones University. Yes THAT Bob Jones.)
Mary, Mother of Salvation | Catholic Answers
     
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Dec 22, 2013, 02:16 PM
 
There's not even a "Co", Jesus said He is the Way, Truth, and Life, he didn't add in "oh yeah, and my mom too". I'm aware of the convoluted way the Roman Church has tried to establish such a link, but it really doesn't come down to much more than "because we say so", and that doesn't carry much weight outside of the RCC.
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Dec 22, 2013, 10:22 PM
 
So, you did not read Father Longenecker's article?
     
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Dec 22, 2013, 10:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
So, you did not read Father Longenecker's article?
I did, I've been familiar with that perspective for decades, ever since seminary, but that doesn't mean I agree with it (and neither does it make it valid). Intercessory prayer from the saints != redemption/salvation.
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Dec 23, 2013, 08:57 AM
 
Then when some asks you to pray for them, tell them no.
     
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Dec 23, 2013, 03:57 PM
 
I don't pray for people, or anything, to be frank about it.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Dec 24, 2013, 12:57 PM
 
Do you reject the four declared Marian dogmas as well? (Co-redemtrix has not been declared a dogma)
     
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Dec 24, 2013, 02:47 PM
 
The Golden Calf didn't demand all this complex dogma.

Just sayin'.
     
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Dec 24, 2013, 05:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The Golden Calf didn't demand all this complex dogma.

Just sayin'.


And look where that got them.
     
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Dec 24, 2013, 05:52 PM
 
A hot business melting calves into yad.

Or so the story goes...
     
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Dec 24, 2013, 06:28 PM
 
More like 40 years wandering in the desert.
     
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Dec 25, 2013, 02:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Do you reject the four declared Marian dogmas as well? (Co-redemtrix has not been declared a dogma)
The Roman declared dogmas, you mean. The second, Perpetual Virginity, and the fourth, the Assumption, aren't scriptural and I have no difficulty rejecting those outright. The third, the Immaculate Conception, is something I've always struggled with, and finally I decided that it doesn't matter to me. I don't believe it's necessary for him to have been born of a virgin to be the Son of God, and it's quite possible this detail was added from older myths. The first? Well, she's Jesus' biological mother, and I believe him to be the begotten Son of God, so I don't have an issue with calling her the Mother of God.
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Dec 26, 2013, 06:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
The Roman declared dogmas, you mean. The second, Perpetual Virginity, and the fourth, the Assumption, aren't scriptural and I have no difficulty rejecting those outright. The third, the Immaculate Conception, is something I've always struggled with, and finally I decided that it doesn't matter to me. I don't believe it's necessary for him to have been born of a virgin to be the Son of God, and it's quite possible this detail was added from older myths. The first? Well, she's Jesus' biological mother, and I believe him to be the begotten Son of God, so I don't have an issue with calling her the Mother of God.
Do you accept the Trinity?
     
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Dec 26, 2013, 01:27 PM
 
Father, Son, Holy Spirit... yep, they're all here.
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Dec 26, 2013, 03:12 PM
 
Why accept the Church's dogma of the Trinty, and not the others?
     
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Dec 27, 2013, 12:26 AM
 
There's a scriptural basis for the Trinity, as well as true Ecumenical agreement. "Hello, the Council of Chalcedon called and said they're missing some people".

Also, in my personal life the Trinity has borne out as true and has been revealed to be a reality, while the "extra-Divinity" of Mary simply hasn't.
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Dec 27, 2013, 04:27 PM
 
Does proof of divine reality wreck your faith?

Sort of like a Heisenberg divinity principle.
     
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Dec 27, 2013, 10:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Does proof of divine reality wreck your faith?

Sort of like a Heisenberg divinity principle.
I've seen, and felt, proof of divinity many times in my life. It's my primary reason for belief, since I don't seem to be wired to take things on faith.
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Dec 28, 2013, 12:24 AM
 
Any concern what you have seen as divine is the diabolical in disguise?
     
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Dec 28, 2013, 03:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Any concern what you have seen as divine is the diabolical in disguise?
That's a good question.
 
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Dec 28, 2013, 07:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Any concern what you have seen as divine is the diabolical in disguise?
It might be diabolical as the product of a curse.

In that case you'd want to make sure you're not cursed. You'll need a deck of playing cards and possibly a whole bunch of sea salt and a warm bath. Remove the jokers and shuffle the deck of cards while thinking of all the ways you're possibly cursed, lay the cards out 'til you reach an ace or a stack of ten cards, and then start a new stack. Make three stacks of cards. If you have zero Aces, NO CURSE! One Ace? Ooh - 33.3% chance you have a curse. Two Aces, 66.6% chance of curse, and three Aces? Uh oh! You're definitely cursed. As you might've guessed from sheer mathematical odds, you'll be taking that de-cursing bath. You'll be taking the bath at dawn on Thursday while holding the sea salt above your head saying a prayer to all the gods and creatures of the earth and sea to cleanse you of all evil and alien magicks and restore you to health and balance. Then pour the entire contents of the container of sea salt into the bath. It'll get scratchy and itchy and possibly painful on those open sores on your tushie, but that's not the salt -- that's the extraction of all the evil and alien magicks. Then wash it all off because it'll dry out your skin and oh, it also completes the cleansing process.

This all works better through a public profession of faith, so it must be posted on YouTube with url provided in the MacNN Lounge.

And if that doesn't work, you have one hell of a drinking game for some other time.
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Dec 28, 2013, 02:13 PM
 
That's why I don't broach that subject in places like this.
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Dec 28, 2013, 03:48 PM
 
I didn't know it was a hot-button...
     
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Dec 28, 2013, 04:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I didn't know it was a hot-button...
Discussion about the occult is a magnet for snark around here, from both the fundamentalists and the atheists, but I don't care anymore.
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Dec 28, 2013, 04:46 PM
 
Well, in that vein, the problem I have with the idea of light to light (and vice-versa) is it strikes me as a little too pat. It almost verges on scientific classification.

Not that it isn't possible, but I'd expect the supernatural (diabolical, divine, or other) to defy such simple rules. Likewise, when things which are supposed to be beyond our ken just happen to fall into easily digestible metaphors, I get suspicious.
     
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Dec 28, 2013, 04:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
That's why I don't broach that subject in places like this.
Places where you'd challenge Marian dogma as extra-biblical?
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Dec 28, 2013, 05:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Places where you'd challenge Marian dogma as extra-biblical?
It is. That doesn't mean the Romans, or whomever else wants to believe it, shouldn't or can't, but anything beyond Mary being Jesus' mother and blessed by the Holy Spirit, is extracanonical. Holy, revered, and owing of veneration, as other saints, I fully agree with, but Divine and able to bestow salvation? That's not Gospel.

The stumbling block here, I think, is believing most occult practices, aka. "ceremonial magic" are religious when they aren't. A temple (or lodge, if you will) has people of all faiths, and sometimes even none at all, working alongside each other. Some believe in the external aspects of the "work" while others who are into it for the internal, personal benefits. It's a system for growth on whatever level the individual chooses, not the outright worship of God or gods, though many incorporate it into their religious beliefs.
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Dec 28, 2013, 05:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Well, in that vein, the problem I have with the idea of light to light (and vice-versa) is it strikes me as a little too pat. It almost verges on scientific classification.

Not that it isn't possible, but I'd expect the supernatural (diabolical, divine, or other) to defy such simple rules. Likewise, when things which are supposed to be beyond our ken just happen to fall into easily digestible metaphors, I get suspicious.
Of course that's a simplified way of looking at it, but as you'd imagine with a subject so broad, it's substantially more complicated than that. Whenever discussing what is widely referred to as the Western Esoteric Tradition in public, I typically stick with generalities that cover ~90% of the spectrum, because specifics can run on for many pages.
( Last edited by Shaddim; Dec 28, 2013 at 06:14 PM. )
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