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What's the deal with Pope Francis? (Page 8)
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Clinically Insane
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Dec 28, 2013, 07:01 PM
 
Totally fair.

My apologies for reading more into it. I probably should have realized that.
     
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Dec 29, 2013, 08:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
It is. That doesn't mean the Romans, or whomever else wants to believe it, shouldn't or can't, but anything beyond Mary being Jesus' mother and blessed by the Holy Spirit, is extracanonical. Holy, revered, and owing of veneration, as other saints, I fully agree with, but Divine and able to bestow salvation? That's not Gospel.

The stumbling block here, I think, is believing most occult practices, aka. "ceremonial magic" are religious when they aren't. A temple (or lodge, if you will) has people of all faiths, and sometimes even none at all, working alongside each other. Some believe in the external aspects of the "work" while others who are into it for the internal, personal benefits. It's a system for growth on whatever level the individual chooses, not the outright worship of God or gods, though many incorporate it into their religious beliefs.
This is splitting hairs. They are spiritual rites performed from traditional practice. It hardly made sense to me that you'd get so legalistic with Chongo's Marian dogmas while practicing all this other extra-canonical stuff. Particularly in swearing oaths to any of these orders or performing other acts in stark contrast to the Scriptures you're holding Chongo accountable for.
ebuddy
     
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Dec 29, 2013, 01:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
This is splitting hairs. They are spiritual rites performed from traditional practice. It hardly made sense to me that you'd get so legalistic with Chongo's Marian dogmas while practicing all this other extra-canonical stuff. Particularly in swearing oaths to any of these orders or performing other acts in stark contrast to the Scriptures you're holding Chongo accountable for.
Again, occult practices aren't religion, nor are they doctrine, and I believe that's part of the confusion. Also, as I pointed out, he can believe whatever he wants, as long as no one is getting hurt, there's no harm there. I'm just explaining why I don't accept that within my religious practices.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Dec 30, 2013, 11:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
It is. That doesn't mean the Romans, or whomever else wants to believe it, shouldn't or can't, but anything beyond Mary being Jesus' mother and blessed by the Holy Spirit, is extracanonical. Holy, revered, and owing of veneration, as other saints, I fully agree with, but Divine and able to bestow salvation? That's not Gospel.
Nowhere does the Church teach Mary is divine. Mary is a creature like you or me.

Anti-Catholic Whoppers | Catholic Answers

"2. Maryolatry [sic] is a hoax."

Quite true. "Mariolatry" means the worship of Mary, giving her the kind of honor due only to God (Greek: latria). Since Catholics justifiably give her greater honor than they give other saints, but less than they give to God (and not just less, but a fundamentally different kind of honor), Mariolatry does not exist in Catholic piety. In fact, the Catholic Church forbids Mariolatry because it forbids us to worship anyone other than God himself: "Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God. . . . Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2113, cf. 2110–2112, 2114).
Where in the NT does the word Trinity appear?
     
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Dec 30, 2013, 12:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I call bullshit on this piece.
Snope agrees

snopes.com: Pope Francis Declares All Religions are True
     
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Dec 30, 2013, 03:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Nowhere does the Church teach Mary is divine. Mary is a creature like you or me.

Anti-Catholic Whoppers | Catholic Answers
I'm pretty sure I said nothing about Mary being a spirit, Jesus was also human, the difference is that she can't offer redemption or salvation, only Christ can, through Him (according the Jesus' own words).

Where in the NT does the word Trinity appear?
Jesus tells us about his Father [1], that he Himself is The Way, Truth, & Life [2], and that He will send parakletos (in the form of the Holy Spirit), a Comforter & Intercessor [3]. That's 3 "forms" in 1 God, for those keeping count. Trinity is simply a word that explains the phenomenon that Christ himself described. Sure, that can be nit-picked to death, and is, try discussing that with a Muslim or J. Witness, but I accept it, in part due to tradition, but largely because of the testimony from Jesus' own mouth. Also I could get into the historical significance of 3 in other religions, and how Truth has a tendency to repeat and bear witness for itself, but that's a lot of typing...
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Dec 31, 2013, 11:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I'm pretty sure I said nothing about Mary being a spirit...
You did post this:

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
It is. That doesn't mean the Romans, or whomever else wants to believe it, shouldn't or can't, but anything beyond Mary being Jesus' mother and blessed by the Holy Spirit, is extracanonical. Holy, revered, and owing of veneration, as other saints, I fully agree with, but Divine and able to bestow salvation? That's not Gospel.
Jesus first miracle was done on the insistence of Mary:

2 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what concern is that to you and to me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
     
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Dec 31, 2013, 12:59 PM
 
4.5 and Mary said to Jesus, how dare you talk to your mother like that. Have some respect! Also, make with the wine!
     
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Dec 31, 2013, 01:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
You did post this:
You lost me a while back with "creature" and I'm still not following you on your line of reasoning.

Jesus first miracle was done on the insistence of Mary:
and a Roman centurion asked Jesus to heal his dying servant. Both are examples of faith in whom Jesus was (is) and belief that he could do the extraordinary, not evidence that they could redeem a lost soul. John 3:16 says that if you believe in Jesus you will be saved, he carries that over several other times throughout the Gospels:

Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps My word, he will never see death. John 8:51

This is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast send. John 17:3

I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. John 11:25-26

For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

The cup that I drink you will drink; and with the baptism with which I am baptized; but to sit at My right hand or at My left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared. Mark 10:39-40

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for My name's sake, will receive a hundred-fold, and inherit eternal life. But many will that are first will be last, and the last first. Matthew 19:29-30
and of course, as I mentioned earlier, one of my favorite passages in all of the Bible:

Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6
There are dozens of passages that speak of salvation, from Jesus' own mouth, detailing what is required; faith in Jesus, the Grace of God, also partaking in the Holy Eucharist, "take this and eat it, this is my body that is broken for you and for many, given for the remission of sin and everlasting life", but nowhere does he say that his mother is a facilitator in redemption. Belief in the divinity of Jesus, proven by; baptism, partaking of His body and blood, and the belief in your heart that He is the true son of God, is the only assured way to Christian salvation, in this world or the next.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful of Mary, or any saint, and the veneration of them is a wonderful, time-honored tradition, which can be a part of a very rich spiritual life, but it is not required for salvation in Christ.
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Dec 31, 2013, 01:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post

I'm not trying to be disrespectful of Mary, or any saint, and the veneration of them is a wonderful, time-honored tradition, which can be a part of a very rich spiritual life, but it is not required for salvation in Christ.

Fr Serpa answers this better than I can.
Can you help me resolve my difficulties with Marian doctrines? | Catholic Answers

Full Question
I am having serious issues with Marian doctrines. I feel the titles the Church gives to her, such as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and dispenser of all graces, really limit the power of Christ. I fear I am committing idolatry. Am I required to believe Mary is co-redeemer with Christ? Or can I simply not believe that doctrine at all because it isn't dogma? I fear this issue will force me away from the Church for good.
Answer

It will help if you understand what the Church means by such doctrines and what it does not mean. First, the Church recognizes that Jesus in the ultimate sense is our only redeemer—plain and simple. Only God could make up for an offense against his divinity. When Jesus, the second Person of the Blessed Trinity, became man, he used the services of several human beings. he used prophets, the last of whom was his cousin, John the Baptist. He used St. Joseph as his foster father to protect him and to be a father to him in his formative years. Most of all, he used Mary as his mother who gave birth to him, nursed him, and nurtured him as a child. All of these people cooperated with him and his mission of salvation. He alone was the redeemer in the ultimate sense, but they cooperated with him in his work of redemption. In varying degrees they all could be called co-redeemers because of such cooperation. But because of her unique role and the degree of her cooperation, Mary is singled out. In all of humanity, God singled her out for a truly sublime role. Nursing Almighty God at her breast is beyond our ability to fully appreciate. Yet thousands of Christians since the Protestant reformation have completely ignored such sublimity.

What is said of co-redemptrix is also true of mediatrix. Because these terms can be highly misleading, the Church has not infallibly proclaimed them. (See article: A New Marian Dogma) Nevertheless, God is the one who singled Mary out for the unique role in salvation that she has. She did not seek out such distinction. It is important to remember the high praise Jesus lavished on St. John the Baptist. Yet his mission was not nearly as exalted as Mary’s. Jesus worked his first miracle at her request. All she needed to say was: "They have no wine." He understood exactly what she wanted. He could have taken care of the matter on his own. But he chose to have his mother’s intercession be a part of the mix. The miracle wasn’t any less significant because of her part in it. On the contrary, she shows us how accessible he is to our needs. To truly appreciate Mary is to appreciate her Son all the more.
Answered by: Fr. Vincent Serpa O.P.
John Salza on intercessory prayer. (chapter and verse from the NT and OT)

Scripture Catholic - SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER
     
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Dec 31, 2013, 03:26 PM
 
Home Depot founder worries Pope Francis neither loves nor understands rich Americans | The Raw Story
According to Langone, an anonymous, “potential seven-figure donor” for the Church’s restoration of St. Patrick’s Cathedral is concerned that the Pope’s criticism of capitalism are “exclusionary,” especially his statements about the “culture of prosperity” leading to the wealthy being “incapable of feeling compassion for the poor.”
The irony.
     
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Dec 31, 2013, 05:01 PM
 
I'll be the first to say class warfare is real, and there's a lot of unfounded hatred spent on the rich.

That said, man there are some rich people worth hating.
     
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Jan 1, 2014, 01:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
You lost me a while back with "creature" and I'm still not following you on your line of reasoning.
Mary is a human creature, as you and I are.

Her is an another answer from Catholic Answers.

Isn't calling Mary the mediatrix of all graces contrary to the doctrine that Jesus is the sole mediator between God and man? | Catholic Answers

Full Question

I can accept most of the Church's teaching on Mary, but I struggle with the Church calling Mary the mediatrix of all graces. This seems to be a violation of 1 Timothy 2:5–6, where Scripture states that Jesus, through his death on the cross, is the one mediator between God and man. Please explain.
Answer

Mary’s title of mediatrix arises from her cooperation in the Incarnation and in the Redemption of mankind. Through her "yes" (Lk 1:38), she became the Theotokos (God-bearer), and, as the "New Eve," she is "the Mother of all living."

Irenaeus (A.D. 120–200) wrote, "As by a virgin the human race had been bound to death, by a virgin it is saved, the balance being preserved, a virgin’s disobedience by a virgin’s obedience" (Against Heresies, 3, 22, 19). Eve made the Fall possible, but Adam effected it; Mary made our Redemption possible (by consenting to bring the Savior into the world), but Jesus effected it.

God permitted the Redemption of mankind to depend on the free-will decision of a human being. Whether or not we would have a mediator was dependent on Mary’s "yes." Had there been no "yes" from Mary, there would have been no mediator. Thus the graces that come through Jesus may be said to come to us, in a secondary way, via Mary—not as the origin of the graces, but as a conduit. The Catholic Church always has taught that Jesus Christ alone redeemed mankind (neither Mary nor any other creature had the power to do so), and ultimately only through him are salvation and grace obtained.

Even we are mediators, in a lesser sense. The word mediator means someone who is a go-between. In 1 Timothy 2:5, which refers to Jesus as the "one mediator," the Greek word for "one" is heis, which means "first" or "primary" and does not denote something exclusive. In fact, we are all mediators when we pray for one another. As members of the Mystical Body of Christ, we all share in Christ’s role as mediator, but our efforts at being go-betweens "work" only because of what he has done.

Our mediating in no way diminishes the role of Christ as mediator; in fact, it glorifies the Father, because it is through Jesus that we can approach with confidence the throne of grace (Heb 4:14-16). How much more does Jesus give his mother Mary the privilege to be a participant in the distribution of grace!

Answered by: Peggy Frye
     
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Jan 1, 2014, 02:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
That's way too much "wiggling around" for me, there are many cases of intercession in behalf of others in the Gospels; the centurion I mentioned earlier, the people who cut out the roof of the house to lower the cripple man to Jesus to be healed "your sins are forgiven, take up your bed and walk". In terms of Mary and her more elevated status, that's Roman and Western Rite doctrine, and that's fine. I'm saying that's quite a lot to extract from such a small amount of Biblical evidence. Turning water in to wine and healing the sick are miracles, but salvation is a path, a way for people to walk in search of righteousness, not a place, action, or word. No one else can choose it for you, and no one can grant it on your behalf. Grace opened that way, charity guides you, and belief in the Living Word sees you through. It's just that simple, and hard.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'll be the first to say class warfare is real, and there's a lot of unfounded hatred spent on the rich.

That said, man there are some rich people worth hating.
More worth pitying. Of those I know who are like that, all of them make themselves miserable. They hate themselves more than you ever could. No one's happy until they learn how to live, what they need and what they can live without. And while it's true that if you're unhappy, it's better to be rich and unhappy (poor and sad is the worst), love is better than wealth, any day.

No, I don't give a shit if that sounds sappy, it's true, trust me.
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Jan 1, 2014, 02:52 PM
 
Absolutely true.

I've often wondered why awful people aren't punished for their awfulness, but have found being awful is punishment in and of itself. I just forget that sometimes.
     
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Jan 2, 2014, 11:38 AM
 
Pope Francis does that new dance: The Marian Wiggle
VATICAN CITY — Pope Francis has invited the faithful to entrust their hearts to Mary, to look on her as a Mother to all and to see her as a messenger of hope during his homily on the Solemnity of the Mother of God.

Read more: Pope Francis’ New Year Messages | Daily News | NCRegister.com
In the first reading we find the ancient prayer of blessing which God gave to Moses to hand on to Aaron and his sons: "The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you. The Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace" (Num 6:24-25). There is no more meaningful time than the beginning of a new year to hear these words of blessing: they will accompany our journey through the year opening up before us. They are words of strength, courage and hope. Not an illusory hope, based on frail human promises, or a naïve hope which presumes that the future will be better simply because it is the future. Rather, it is a hope that has its foundation precisely in God’s blessing, a blessing which contains the greatest message of good wishes there can be; and this is the message which the Church brings to each of us, filled with the Lord’s loving care and providential help.

The message of hope contained in this blessing was fully realized in a woman, Mary, who was destined to become the Mother of God, and it was fulfilled in her before all creatures.

The Mother of God. This is the first and most important title of Our Lady. It refers to a quality, a role which the faith of the Christian people, in its tender and genuine devotion to our heavenly Mother, has understood from the beginning.

We recall that great moment in the history of the ancient Church, the Council of Ephesus, in which the divine motherhood of the Virgin Mary was authoritatively defined.

Read more: Pope's Homily on Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God |Blogs | NCRegister.com
I knew there was a reason I always liked this song.

The Beatles - Let It Be (Naked Version) [HD] - YouTube

Coming soon on "Catholic Answers Live"
Making Sense of Mary
Friday, Jan 17, 2014 - 7pm ET

EWTN radio
http://www.ewtn.com/live/ewtnplayer/...d=radioenglish
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http://www.christiannetcast.com/list...tation=ihrn-ir
( Last edited by Chongo; Jan 2, 2014 at 01:19 PM. )
     
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Jan 2, 2014, 03:23 PM
 
Yeah, he's a nice guy, and I like where his heart is (re. I believe he means well), but from my perspective "entrusting their hearts to Mary" isn't going to cut it. There's no reason to muddy the Theological waters when there's already direct connection for all of mankind through Christ. The Roman Church-established Marian doctrine treads dangerously close to polytheism, in certain ways.
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Jan 3, 2014, 12:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post


There are dozens of passages that speak of salvation, from Jesus' own mouth, detailing what is required; faith in Jesus, the Grace of God, also partaking in the Holy Eucharist, "take this and eat it, this is my body that is broken for you and for many, given for the remission of sin and everlasting life", but nowhere does he say that his mother is a facilitator in redemption. Belief in the divinity of Jesus, proven by; baptism, partaking of His body and blood, and the belief in your heart that He is the true son of God, is the only assured way to Christian salvation, in this world or the next.

I take it you you believe in the real presence, AKA transubstantiation.

I ask because you quote:

For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40
This is in the midst of the "Bread of Life discourse" where many of Jesus' disciples walked away because :
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.” 59 He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum.
The Words of Eternal Life

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?” 61 But Jesus, being aware that his disciples were complaining about it, said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But among you there are some who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who were the ones that did not believe, and who was the one that would betray him. 65 And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.”

66 Because of this many of his disciples turned back and no longer went about with him. 67 So Jesus asked the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom can we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”[h] 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? Yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He was speaking of Judas son of Simon Iscariot,[i] for he, though one of the twelve, was going to betray him.
     
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Jan 3, 2014, 01:14 PM
 
@ Chongo -- why get mired in all this? i.e. Can one attain salvation through Mary, the Mother of God or not? Period.

Not "ultimate" salvation as mentioned in one of your earlier articles or any other such equivocation. Let your yes be yes and your no be no.
ebuddy
     
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Jan 3, 2014, 02:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
@ Chongo -- why get mired in all this? i.e. Can one attain salvation through Mary, the Mother of God or not? Period.

Not "ultimate" salvation as mentioned in one of your earlier articles or any other such equivocation. Let your yes be yes and your no be no.
I'm not trying to mire anyone, I simply wanted a (polite) conversation on the subject, since we rarely have those regarding religion around here. It's likely not going to change my mind, but it's an interesting topic.

On your statement, I suppose that's what bothers me about the Marian Doctrine. There's a lot of, what I call, "uncomfortable fidgeting" from proponents. While I believe in intercession for healing, to a point, salvation is the relationship process between an individual and God, a way back to God, if you will, that for Christians is wholly through Christ.

“God became man, that man could become God” - Athanasius

Our intended "restored" nature is as a part of the Logos, and our perfected will is an extension of Him and He of it. That is the heart of Tikkun, or Reclamation, and by Grace is our natural state as part of Creation. We are not merely made creatures, on a fundamental level we are created beings, reconnected and quickened through the blood of Jesus.
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Jan 3, 2014, 02:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
@ Chongo -- why get mired in all this? i.e. Can one attain salvation through Mary, the Mother of God or not? Period.

Not "ultimate" salvation as mentioned in one of your earlier articles or any other such equivocation. Let your yes be yes and your no be no.
Jesus is the redeemer. We all can intercede (pray) on behalf of each other to Jesus. We are supposed to.

What Does the Bible Say About Praying For Each Other? 84 verses on praying for each other

The bogus Vatican Council III story from "The Diversity" started it. I joked that Pope Francis would call it to announce Mary is the "Fourth Person of the Quadrinity" (Mary is NOT a divine person. She is a human creature) The snow ball rolled from there.
     
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Jan 3, 2014, 05:03 PM
 
Is there a particular rationale to the term "creature"?
     
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Jan 3, 2014, 06:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I'm not trying to mire anyone, I simply wanted a (polite) conversation on the subject, since we rarely have those regarding religion around here. It's likely not going to change my mind, but it's an interesting topic.
No-no-no, brother. I didn't mean to imply that you were trapping or miring him in anything. I was as curious as you about the cited source's wriggle-room on the question. It'd be refreshing for once, anywhere, to hear a yes or a no. Ever.

On your statement, I suppose that's what bothers me about the Marian Doctrine. There's a lot of, what I call, "uncomfortable fidgeting" from proponents. While I believe in intercession for healing, to a point, salvation is the relationship process between an individual and God, a way back to God, if you will, that for Christians is wholly through Christ.
Indeed. After all, I give my grandmother credit for facilitating God's work in me, but I do not pray to her or invoke her or revere her as anything more than a remarkable human being. Not to suggest that Chongo does of course before I get myself in more trouble.
ebuddy
     
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Jan 3, 2014, 10:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Is there a particular rationale to the term "creature"?
This what the Catechism uses:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 3 PARAGRAPH 2

488 "God sent forth his Son", but to prepare a body for him,125 he wanted the free co-operation of a creature. For this, from all eternity God chose for the mother of his Son a daughter of Israel, a young Jewish woman of Nazareth in Galilee, "a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary":126

The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, so that just as a woman had a share in the coming of death, so also should a woman contribute to the coming of life.127
Footnotes cited
125 Gal 4:4; Heb 10:5.
126 Lk 1:26-27.
127 LG 56; cf. LG 61. LG= Lumen Gentium
     
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Jan 4, 2014, 06:03 PM
 
Tell me to F-off if this is a bad topic, but isn't the virgin part a mistranslation?
     
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Jan 4, 2014, 06:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Tell me to F-off if this is a bad topic, but isn't the virgin part a mistranslation?
I'm guessing whether or not that part is a mistranslation is hotly in dispute seeing as multitudes of millions still regard Mary as the Virgin Mother.
ebuddy
     
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Jan 4, 2014, 06:32 PM
 
I always (perhaps incorrectly) assumed that was inertia.

In a similar way to people thinking the KJV is the bible, when my understanding is it's been heavily modified to sound pretty.
     
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Jan 4, 2014, 06:34 PM
 
In those days, if you were a "young woman" and NOT a virgin, lets say it did not end well for you.
     
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Jan 4, 2014, 06:36 PM
 
I think the idea was she slept with her husband while married, so it would have been kosher.
     
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Jan 4, 2014, 06:40 PM
 
Betrothed is not married.
     
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Jan 4, 2014, 06:48 PM
 
Quick Google gives me the idea at least one gospel has them down as married, pre-conception.

I enjoy your links to answers for these kinds of questions, BTW. Thank you! (no snark )
     
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Jan 4, 2014, 06:58 PM
 
Luke and Matthew have the birth account, John and Mark do not. Both Luke and Matthew in NRSV-CE use engaged. (the RSV-CE uses betrothed.)

Luke 1 NRSVCE - Dedication to Theophilus - Since many - Bible Gateway

26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”[b] 29 But she was much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. 30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David. 33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” 34 Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?”[c] 35 The angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born[d] will be holy; he will be called Son of God.
Matthew 1 NRSVCE - The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah - An - Bible Gateway
18 Now the birth of Jesus the Messiah[i] took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been engaged to Joseph, but before they lived together, she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. 19 Her husband Joseph, being a righteous man and unwilling to expose her to public disgrace, planned to dismiss her quietly. 20 But just when he had resolved to do this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this took place to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet:

23 “Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
and they shall name him Emmanuel,”
which means, “God is with us.”

24 When Joseph awoke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took her as his wife, 25 but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son;[j] and he named him Jesus.
     
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Jan 4, 2014, 07:26 PM
 
     
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Mar 5, 2014, 06:42 PM
 


Best. Pope. Evar.
     
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Mar 14, 2014, 08:38 AM
 
From our friends at Catholic Vote. A great summary of Papa Francis' 1st year.

Year in Review: Church Teachings that Pope Francis has changed | CatholicVote.org
It’s been a year since Pope Francis was elected, and what a year it has been.

First, he said “who am I to judge?” and then…well, he’s in sharp contrast to his predecessors and…um…he’s ushering in a new age of tolerance, and uh…let’s see, what else did that AP article say…?

Whatever. The point is, no more mean Church with doctrine and morality and stuff. Pope Francis is changing all those old, rigid teachings. It’s like a dream come true.

So let’s review the teachings of the Church that Pope Francis has changed.

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a
That was fun.

Check back next year – and keep right on dreaming!
¡Viva Cristo Rey!
     
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Mar 17, 2014, 06:40 AM
 
I really get a "the lady doth protest" vibe from that.

Francis isn't radical for changing church teachings, he's radical for what he's doing with them.

One of those things, and this seems to be a Jesuit trait, is he appears to have faith in people's ability to find God themselves, rather than needing to have it thrust upon them.

If one is to have that faith, then they also accept the God others find may not be quite the same as their own.
( Last edited by subego; Mar 17, 2014 at 07:37 PM. )
     
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Mar 24, 2014, 01:46 PM
 


Papal selfie.
     
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Mar 24, 2014, 04:02 PM
 
Can't see any previous pope doing something like that. He's definitely on my list of 6 (living) people I'd most want as a guest for dinner.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
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Mar 26, 2014, 01:14 PM
 
Besides me, who are the other four?
     
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Mar 26, 2014, 01:41 PM
 
‎The current 6 are: Neil deGrasse Tyson, RDJ, Penn Jillette, the Pope, Olivia Wilde, and Misha Collins. 1st alternate, Kate Beckinsale.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
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Mar 26, 2014, 04:05 PM
 
new tv series: Dinner with Shaddim.
     
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Mar 26, 2014, 04:51 PM
 
You'd need to get Wally Shawn in for one.
     
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Mar 26, 2014, 10:56 PM
 
Inconceivable!
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
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Mar 27, 2014, 02:57 AM
 
Teller is offended.
     
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Apr 5, 2014, 02:31 PM
 
     
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Apr 5, 2014, 05:59 PM
 
YOPO You down with P.O.P.E.?
     
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Apr 25, 2014, 06:24 PM
 
Clever dude.

Francis has broached the subject of priests getting married by saying "there's a priest shortage... if only I could divine a way to deal with it... what do y'all priests think?"

Are married priests next on Pope Francis’ reform agenda? | Religion News Service


As a side note, this article was tweeted by my favorite Jesuit, Fr. Robert Ballacer (@padresj), who also stated he thinks there will be married priests in his lifetime (I'd guess he's in his late 40s, early 50s).
     
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May 7, 2014, 01:51 PM
 
Thumbs down on letting this one fly.

Vatican presses forward with crackdown on US nuns' group over 'radical' positions | Fox News

Do we really need a nun crackdown?

Investigators praised the nuns' humanitarian work, but accused them of focusing too much on social justice and ignoring critical issues, such as fighting abortion.
Facepalm Sunday.
     
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May 7, 2014, 01:57 PM
 
I feel like I read that exact sentence months ago. I also recall Francis getting grief because he hadn't talked about abortion enough. Because its important to save people that might exist more than improving the treatment and lot of the millions that already do. Because: SEX
     
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May 7, 2014, 02:06 PM
 
This is such a horrible way to do it though.

Except when rapping on your knuckles in grade school, nuns always get the short end of the stick, and they're basically some of best people out there.

As Fr. Robert tweeted, "Respectfully: Chastising the nuns who have been the most compassionate side of the Catholic Church = bad idea."
     
 
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