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Not even our children escape the shillery
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Nov 6, 2013, 05:30 PM
 
Common Core lessons blasted for sneaking politics into elementary classrooms | Fox News

#5

"The commands of the government must be followed by all"

The hell? No No NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. That is NOT how our country works. We do not follow the commands of the government. We obey the laws set forth by our legislature BUT WE ARE NOT compelled to follow the commands of the government. Ever. What kind of stalinist bullshit is this and why are we even considering letting this near our children? My kids will NOT be attending any sort of school that attempts to indoctrinate them politically. They will be taught to think for themselves and ALWAYS question their government and above all else, to make their own decisions regarding how they feel and understand that each person is entitled to their own view, including them. They should not fear expressing it but as well should respect others.

What the hell is going on in this country? Can we have America back please? Or at least remove "land of the free" from our national anthem so we're honest with ourselves?
     
Snow-i  (op)
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Nov 6, 2013, 05:31 PM
 
     
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Nov 6, 2013, 05:51 PM
 
I'm not sure if it's some indoctrination plot, but it's pretty dumb.
     
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Nov 6, 2013, 06:03 PM
 
BLOODY ****ING HELL!! If this is true, we absolutely must get this trash away from our kids. Jesus H, what's next federal "Youth Camps"?

He makes sure the country’s laws are fair.
WTF? Isn't that the job of the courts?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
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Nov 6, 2013, 06:15 PM
 
Doesn't all of this sorta fit into the candy-coated shit they feed 10-year-olds about the Civil War?

I don't think you can separate this from the fact it's going along with Lincoln.

We basically teach kids that age this guy was like, god or something. We carved his face into the side of a mountain, FFS.


Edit: IOW, this strikes me as indoctrination of "historical president worship". That's something which needs to stop, not the least of reasons being it encourages current president worship. It's not really partisan though. It's been that way for a long time.
     
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Nov 7, 2013, 01:36 PM
 
No one interested in giving my above commentary a beat-down?
     
Snow-i  (op)
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Nov 7, 2013, 01:56 PM
 
I'm a little disturbed by the general lack of interest in this thread. It's a pretty important issue that could have massive implications a decade or two down the road.

Subego, I agreed 100% with your post and was hoping one of our friends on the left would jump in, but looks like they'll be conspicuously absent on this one.

EDIT: On its own this issue isn't all that bad. Sure it could have been oversight, or another personal axe to grind. But when you add this among the DoD's racist training manual, the IRS and EPA targeting scandals, silence on Benghazi, the abuse of the executive, extra-constitutional NSA, and the ACA there is a very clear message being sent to the citizenry: "The government rules you and you should obey their commands."

Scares the living shit out of me that anyone, much less near half the nation, buys into this bullshit. They've taken what we have for granted. They need a real history lesson on civilization. There is no reason to believe we are immune from the mistakes of past empires. Why would we repeat the mentalities and paradigms that caused their collapse? America was successful for 200 years because of the system of government we had employed that empowered individuals to collectively control their own destiny. I'm afraid career politicians have seriously undermined that and are at-this-very-moment usurping the civilian oversight of our country.

Indoctrinate the kids. Check
Target your opposition. Check
Create a dependency class for the entire nation. Check
Know thy enemy (spying). Check
Sweep your dirty laundry under the rug (benghazi). Check

And meanwhile half our nation is just wondering when the government is going to send them their next check.

What's even the point of working anymore? I'd literally be better off going on welfare by about $2200 a year. Why should I bust my ass all day every day just to make ends meet when I can sit around all day and enjoy a slightly better standard of living? It's by design. If the government controls your livelihood they ultimately control you. One baby step at a time we are putting the government in control of our daily lives, including raising our children. It's not something you can get back without a lot of people dying (see: revolutionary war, history of civilization).
( Last edited by Snow-i; Nov 7, 2013 at 02:06 PM. )
     
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Nov 7, 2013, 02:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
I'm a little disturbed by the general lack of interest in this thread.
I agree with you - it's pretty disturbing. But you've got to consider that quite a few of us have been slamming on this kind of thing for years and years - this is just the latest example to float to the top of the bowl.

Repeat after me: Public schools are indoctrination centers. Public schools are indoctrination centers.

Colleges included. You'd never believe the crap some of my students (graduates AND undergrads) believe. Such as:

Q: How do we control adverse selection problems in the markets?
A: Pass more regulations.

This is after a month of studying cause, effect and consequence of regulations over the past 200 years. I can't undo mind control at some level.
He can be fixed -- you can't.
     
Snow-i  (op)
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Nov 7, 2013, 02:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
I agree with you - it's pretty disturbing. But you've got to consider that quite a few of us have been slamming on this kind of thing for years and years - this is just the latest example to float to the top of the bowl.

Repeat after me: Public schools are indoctrination centers. Public schools are indoctrination centers.

Colleges included. You'd never believe the crap some of my students (graduates AND undergrads) believe. Such as:

Q: How do we control adverse selection problems in the markets?
A: Pass more regulations.

This is after a month of studying cause, effect and consequence of regulations over the past 200 years. I can't undo mind control at some level.
I agree. But before it was much harder to point at something and say "look, that's what I'm talking about." Yes, schools are the progressive's ace in the hole. Indoctrinate the teachers, the kids will grow up to worship you. Now we have something that is so blatant in its attempt that there should be marches on washington about this. Considering the gravity of all the other administration's overreaches and incompetence, this doesn't even measure on the scale.

They can just not answer this one and let it slip by the wayside. Yet another example of blatant corruption going unanswered, unchanged, and ultimately forgotten. We're losing our country here, folks. We're swinging so far left that we're not ensuring that progressive changes are implemented correctly for the long term. This instant-satisfaction I don't care what actually happens so long as it sounds good on the surface is not going to make for a very healthy country down the line. Every country needs a bit of progressive change. But we as a nation are ignoring the consequences of implementing such policy to the extent that it is unsustainable, and we're leaving our kids to clean up the mess (if there's even anything left to clean up). But if all goes as planned, the majority of those kids will grow up worshipping the executive, and unable to comprehend what freedom really is. Orwell may not have been far off the mark.
     
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Nov 7, 2013, 04:52 PM
 
I'm less concerned about this being indoctrination and more that it is wildly inaccurate. (Who makes the laws, do we have to obey, etc) Not a good indicator of quality.

We simplify enough for children that it can be understandable to some extent, but to be downright misleading is just going to be confusing for them later on. For instance, I cringed when my daughter came home singing a jaunty Columbus day ditty. I remember getting to high school and being stunned by readings on Lincoln, the civil war, etc.

I agree with Subego's assessment.

Who is implementing this Core, and when?
     
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Nov 7, 2013, 05:48 PM
 
This should be corrected, but let's not go overboard in painting some line between this particular worksheet and some massive liberal/political conspiracy. This could also just be sheer incompetence. My money is on incompetence.
     
Snow-i  (op)
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Nov 7, 2013, 06:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
This should be corrected, but let's not go overboard in painting some line between this particular worksheet and some massive liberal/political conspiracy. This could also just be sheer incompetence. My money is on incompetence.
Glad you've been paying attention.

It isn't just incompetence. It's unacceptable incompetence and it starts at the top.
     
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Nov 7, 2013, 06:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
It isn't just incompetence. It's unacceptable incompetence and it starts at the top.
Which, from the looks of things, would be the state. The standards aren't mandatory:

Common Core State Standards Initiative | In the States

Secondly, individual states are allowed some individual customization:

Policy Priorities:Coming to Terms with Common Core Standards:Coming to Terms with Common Core Standards

To allow for some state-level customization, a provision in the voluntary adoption guidelines allows states to supplement the common core standards with state-specific standards, up to an additional 15 percent.

All of this being said, I'm surrounded by teachers, and nobody likes the standardized testing or the system that surrounds it, so I think this is a symptom of a larger problem: trying to shoehorn some federal vision into all schools without properly taking into accounts the differences between schools/districts, the lacking quality of this instruction (or the possible politicization of it, in this case, if you want to look at this this way), and not actually valuing the feedback from teachers as to whether this actually produces positive results.

The politicization of education is definitely a bad thing though, I would argue that forcing creationism into science classrooms and such is the same sort of politicization in a different form.
     
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Nov 8, 2013, 12:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Which, from the looks of things, would be the state. The standards aren't mandatory:
Even better, the blue states will become further divided with the red states. Great idea!
Common Core State Standards Initiative | In the States

Secondly, individual states are allowed some individual customization:
Or they could just use it as a blueprint and do the best thing for their local constituency. Why mandated materials to join this club? Just make it available to states that are struggling and allow them to determine the best questions.
Policy Priorities:Coming to Terms with Common Core Standards:Coming to Terms with Common Core Standards




All of this being said, I'm surrounded by teachers, and nobody likes the standardized testing or the system that surrounds it, so I think this is a symptom of a larger problem: trying to shoehorn some federal vision into all schools without properly taking into accounts the differences between schools/districts, the lacking quality of this instruction (or the possible politicization of it, in this case, if you want to look at this this way), and not actually valuing the feedback from teachers as to whether this actually produces positive results.
Exactly!
The politicization of education is definitely a bad thing though, I would argue that forcing creationism into science classrooms and such is the same sort of politicization in a different form.
You're absolutely right. Allow the local population to elect superintendents that can oversee adherence to the overall blueprint but choose their own materials as they should be qualified super teachers(like was a teacher for 20-30 years and moved up through the system). Instead, they are becoming politicians themselves which isn't good for the teachers that work for them or the students under those teachers. As a state, mandate the minimum number of years working directly in the schools, not just brought up through some school administration board that never sets foot near a school.
     
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Nov 8, 2013, 12:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Even better, the blue states will become further divided with the red states. Great idea!
I think the greater divide in education is affluent vs. not. However, one of the problems with standardized testing is that it doesn't always take into account schools with a lot of students where English isn't their first language. Many of these ESL kids end up doing just fine, they just have disadvantaged starts (and no, I'm not just talking about Mexican kids).

Besides, Minnesota is a blue state and they haven't adopted this program, and I think they rank pretty well in the standardized testing. My point is that this is probably mostly incompetence, mild indoctrination if intentional, but probably no grand conspiracy. If any I can see the march move away from standardized testing once we can all agree that this approach hasn't been working, not the other direction where these programs become mandatory.
     
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Nov 8, 2013, 12:25 AM
 
See Snow-i, I'm not a pinko commie after all!
     
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Nov 8, 2013, 09:31 AM
 
The KNEE-JERK reactions to anything remotely looking like a gun, photo of a gun, letters NRA next to each other is met by hysterical reactions designed to traumatize kids, and this is more indoctrination/social engineering. The UNION TEACHERS groups have been using politically motivated unscientific surveys instead of scientific studies where the data is available at the back of said study to convince shallow stupid liberal legislators that it was needed for decades.
     
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Nov 8, 2013, 04:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
See Snow-i, I'm not a pinko commie after all!
I've never thought you were, bess. I wouldn't waste my time with these posts if I thought that. I just try to encourage people to be skeptical of anyone with a position of power. To look at the data and see if it matches the actions of the government with the promises made and form your own ideas and opinions about it using the information available independent of the one making the promises.



The teacher example is a great one of what happens when you try to centralize authority and make blanket rules across diverse geographical, cultural, and economic conditions. It never ends well and leaves the door open for abuse on a much grander scale. I firmly believe that the best people to govern are the people themselves, and every opportunity to do so should be taken to reduce one person or group's power over another (the government counts as a group). Of course, this paradigm does not work in the extreme and it's all about finding the right balance. But that's what Merica is all about. It's how we became the world's only superpower, and it seems silly to move away from that especially given the recent, big-biz-married-to-government increase in failures on a national scale that have crippled our economy. Both (R)s and (D)s are guilty of this phenomenon and we as a people should demand more from the people we put in office. It's our office we put them in: They answer to us - don't ever forget that.
     
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Nov 8, 2013, 05:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
I've never thought you were, bess. I wouldn't waste my time with these posts if I thought that. I just try to encourage people to be skeptical of anyone with a position of power. To look at the data and see if it matches the actions of the government with the promises made and form your own ideas and opinions about it using the information available independent of the one making the promises.



The teacher example is a great one of what happens when you try to centralize authority and make blanket rules across diverse geographical, cultural, and economic conditions. It never ends well and leaves the door open for abuse on a much grander scale. I firmly believe that the best people to govern are the people themselves, and every opportunity to do so should be taken to reduce one person or group's power over another (the government counts as a group). Of course, this paradigm does not work in the extreme and it's all about finding the right balance. But that's what Merica is all about. It's how we became the world's only superpower, and it seems silly to move away from that especially given the recent, big-biz-married-to-government increase in failures on a national scale that have crippled our economy. Both (R)s and (D)s are guilty of this phenomenon and we as a people should demand more from the people we put in office. It's our office we put them in: They answer to us - don't ever forget that.

What do we do about the big biz part of this? I don't really know the psychological framework behind why the left tend to focus on big biz while the right tend to focus on government, but these sorts of rants/assessments (not anything you've said here, I mean generally) often frustrate me, because it seems like the bulk of these efforts is spent trying to influence the ratio of this focus between the two entities, rather than tackling the problem as a whole.

Both entities are too similar to me to want to separate them the way that some seem to want to.
     
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Nov 8, 2013, 07:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
What do we do about the big biz part of this?
Hit em where it hurts. The wallet. How? By fostering an environment that encourages competition and allows small businesses to compete with bigger ones. How do we do that? Give smaller businesses some breathing room by eliminating the absurd regulatory and tax cost businesses must endure just to figure out if they're in compliance or not. there's no reason our country needs a multi billion dollar tax industry and no reason smaller businesses should have to invest significant portions of their revenue just to calculate taxes and regulatory compliance. Do we need to throw out all of our regulations and tax codes to do this? No, but we should take a closer look and attempt to simplify that code while accomplishing our regulatory goals. That's a start.

I don't really know the psychological framework behind why the left tend to focus on big biz while the right tend to focus on government, but these sorts of rants/assessments (not anything you've said here, I mean generally) often frustrate me, because it seems like the bulk of these efforts is spent trying to influence the ratio of this focus between the two entities, rather than tackling the problem as a whole.
I think the difference comes from how we attack the problem. I believe the problem starts with a government that pressures businesses with complex regulations, tax codes, and lobbies. If big businesses want laws changed to their advantage they just pour millions into a lobby and get their way. The government becomes a vehicle by which big businesses do exactly what we task businesses to do - make money. We can break up this marriage by demanding government that regulates towards a fair playing ground including the cut that goes to gov't. Regulations are necessary. Tax codes are necessary. No one argues that. We do, however, argue what the scope of those regulations and that tax code is. When you're a small business that has to shell out x% of your revenue just to calculate taxes, that comes directly from the amount of employees you can hire and how much you can pay them.

Both entities are too similar to me to want to separate them the way that some seem to want to.
We don't need to "separate" them in the literal sense. We must, however, separate their agendas. When the CEO of walmart has his lobby successfully change a law end up that favoring walmart, that's good for walmart and bad for everybody else trying to compete with walmart. You can't blame walmart for using legal means to increase their business, but we can demand that our lawmakers act in the best interest of their constituency, not in the interest of their biggest donors. We can preserve the relationship between government and business while separating their interests, because that's really where we're getting screwed.

Right now, the FCC and comcast are a revolving door of lobbiests, regulators, and executives. There are a great many high level FCC people that came from Comcast, that leave the agency and work for Comcast, or leave and lobby for Comcast. We need better oversight of who's actually regulating big business, because if their regulating their way into a cushy retirement job, what's even the point? Is the entirety of the FCC like that? No, but there's enough of that bullshit going on to have a measurable effect on the economy at large. That's just one example of many required to get our country back on a solvent future where we can enjoy things such as subsidized healthcare without bankrupting our kids, thereby ensuring they can have it too.
     
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Nov 8, 2013, 08:54 PM
 
Not even our children escape the shillery...

Indeed, they are often the expressed cause behind it.
ebuddy
     
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Nov 8, 2013, 11:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Hit em where it hurts. The wallet. How? By fostering an environment that encourages competition and allows small businesses to compete with bigger ones. How do we do that? Give smaller businesses some breathing room by eliminating the absurd regulatory and tax cost businesses must endure just to figure out if they're in compliance or not. there's no reason our country needs a multi billion dollar tax industry and no reason smaller businesses should have to invest significant portions of their revenue just to calculate taxes and regulatory compliance. Do we need to throw out all of our regulations and tax codes to do this? No, but we should take a closer look and attempt to simplify that code while accomplishing our regulatory goals. That's a start.
You know where probably the best place to start would be, if not an overhaul of our regulatory mechanism? Decoupling the significantly discounted health care plans with employment, particularly with large employers.

I had a job where my employer spent over $10,000/year per family on a health care package. This package was completely mandatory, and it was pretty extensive. I didn't have the option to pocket that extra $10,000/year or a part of this for a lesser plan, and this fancy plan was what the employer used to attract a lot of employees. Some preferred being paid less for a better benefits package.

How could a small business afford to pay around $1000/month per employee on top of their regular salary while making their salary competitive with these larger employers?

There have been some stories about employers dropping their packages so that their employees can go on the insurance exchange program. If it weren't for the bumpiness with this current transition/implementation (depending on what you want to believe), I'd say this is *good* news, not bad, as at least these employees would have a choice as to what kind of package they'd have. As a pretty young person, I don't really need a $1000/month health care plan, I'd rather pocket the bulk of that money.

I actually know people like me that have turned down jobs because of their mandatory health care plan, and low salary that would otherwise be decent with more health care options. I think the special large employer-only rates are *horrible*, and a huge detriment to small business. Not only that, but the simple fact of having to deal with your own, lesser, individual health insurance policy discourages taking risk in the form of starting these small businesses in the first place.

Maybe you can see part of the framework in which I see this whole ACA thing a little differently than you?

I'm all for ways to stimulate small business, but I think this is easily the most obvious first place to look. If we can figure out this ACA thing or some permutation of it that adjusts for the deficiencies of what we have now, it is possible that we'll see a nice little boom in our economy with new businesses sprouting up.

I think the difference comes from how we attack the problem. I believe the problem starts with a government that pressures businesses with complex regulations, tax codes, and lobbies. If big businesses want laws changed to their advantage they just pour millions into a lobby and get their way. The government becomes a vehicle by which big businesses do exactly what we task businesses to do - make money. We can break up this marriage by demanding government that regulates towards a fair playing ground including the cut that goes to gov't. Regulations are necessary. Tax codes are necessary. No one argues that. We do, however, argue what the scope of those regulations and that tax code is. When you're a small business that has to shell out x% of your revenue just to calculate taxes, that comes directly from the amount of employees you can hire and how much you can pay them.
Makes sense.

We don't need to "separate" them in the literal sense. We must, however, separate their agendas. When the CEO of walmart has his lobby successfully change a law end up that favoring walmart, that's good for walmart and bad for everybody else trying to compete with walmart. You can't blame walmart for using legal means to increase their business, but we can demand that our lawmakers act in the best interest of their constituency, not in the interest of their biggest donors. We can preserve the relationship between government and business while separating their interests, because that's really where we're getting screwed.
One way we can separate their agendas is cutting through all of the rhetoric which makes the right hate the left and the left hate the right, and for the public to see that while we can agree to disagree on the ratio of blame between government vs. business, these two entities are completely joined at the hip, and in order to really address issues such as the wealth disparity gaps, middle class incomes being pretty flat, etc. you need to address this. This is not going to get better on its own once government/business just gets tired of making money.

That's just one example of many required to get our country back on a solvent future where we can enjoy things such as subsidized healthcare without bankrupting our kids, thereby ensuring they can have it too.
I'm glad that we agree that addressing health care is a key part of our economy, even if we disagree over what ought to be done. At least we're finally actually doing stuff about it, agreed? I know you don't like the stuff we're doing, but would you agree it's pretty hard to see us just deciding to hit the abort button and going back to the way things were and leaving it that way for the next decade?
     
   
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