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Gentrification
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Clinically Insane
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Jun 2, 2014, 07:10 AM
 
A group from a nearby city pitched an idea to us about opening a community center in a "developing" part of that city, raising the point that it would give the kids there a positive environment, a place to go and hang out that's more safe, with activities that they may not readily have access to now. You know, like; an indoor pool, basketball court, bowling alley, a track, gym, etc.. It seemed like a good thing, so I tentatively pledged to help. Well, they brought the proposal before the community leaders to get their input, thinking they'd get behind it and see it as a benefit to them and the other residents there. Right?

Hell no. Almost immediately they complained that it was a blatant attempt at gentrification, believing that it would make the neighborhood more attractive and potentially more prosperous, increasing property values, leading to more expensive rent and services. "Don't you dare bring something nice into our area, why are you trying to drive us out?" Then there were more accusations and lots of yelling. WTF? Propose something beneficial, even supportive, showing that the city cares about their wellbeing and their children's future, and get accused of trying to do the opposite. It's absurd and more than a little offensive, to be frank about it.
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Jun 2, 2014, 10:37 AM
 
How dare you make my neighborhood more attractive! My kids are happy playing with old tin cans, why would they need a bowling alley?

The mayor of our town turned an old school into a rec center. The basement is for roller skating and scooting, and she wants to put in a bowling alley. The rec center has lots of after school activities and is very popular, also makes money for the town.

I can see being more angry, say when a developer swoops in on a nice middleclass neighborhood, knocks down the 3br affordable houses, and builds expensive 6br mcMansions. That changes a neighborhood. Not sure if that's gentrification though...
( Last edited by andi*pandi; Jun 2, 2014 at 09:43 PM. )
     
Clinically Insane
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Jun 2, 2014, 11:31 AM
 
I can kinda, sorta see their point, and while yelling at you was unquestionably the wrong path to take, it goes back to something I mentioned in another thread.

How ****ed up must their situation be that they not only turn down a generous and kind offer, they proposal actually makes them mad?

It sounds like the community leaders feel there is a significant portion of neighborhood residents who don't have the prospects of living in a better neighborhood. To put it another way, the bullshit part of of that exchange was questioning your motives*, however the observation of likely effect sounds more or less accurate.



*Something which when it happens to me, as you may be aware, really frosts my ass.
     
Clinically Insane
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Jun 2, 2014, 08:22 PM
 
I've also heard resistance with these sort of proposals from small-c conservative types that generally seem to want to avoid coming up with new ways to spend their tax money. There was a proposal where we live to build a bike trail. It thankfully went through and the trail has been absolutely lovely and has already stimulated the economy, but there was a fair amount of resistance.

Part of this might be visions of gentrification and the bad aspects of such a thing, but could some of what you're observing be about conservative mentalities, Shaddim?

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with having a conservative mentality, so long as this isn't some sort of immovable default.
     
Clinically Insane
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Jun 2, 2014, 08:30 PM
 
I'm confused. How are these even remotely similar?

One is worrying about a neighborhood getting too expensive for residents. One is worrying about proper use of tax dollars.
     
Clinically Insane
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Jun 2, 2014, 08:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm confused. How are these even remotely similar?

One is worrying about a neighborhood getting too expensive for residents. One is worrying about proper use of tax dollars.

It may not matter if there is actual similarity, the reactionary nature of how his appears may come from the same basic place.
     
Clinically Insane
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Jun 2, 2014, 08:38 PM
 
I'll bet you a hundred Internet rubles I can find something your community needs tax money spent on more than a bike path.
     
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Jun 2, 2014, 08:47 PM
 
It's simple: the slum lords refuse to give up power. End of story.

They don't give a flying sh!t about making live better for the people they rule over.

-t
     
Clinically Insane
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Jun 2, 2014, 09:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'll bet you a hundred Internet rubles I can find something your community needs tax money spent on more than a bike path.

I don't think it makes sense to look at things that way though.

With your budget, I think it makes sense to allocate a certain percentage to upkeep and maintenance, paying basic bills/liabilities, and investment/future growth, where that investment doesn't necessarily have an immediate tangible payoff.

That bike path was one of those investment/future growth things. Surrounding the path we should eventually see new business form, and since hundreds/thousands use it every day, people that want to keep their businesses in town. Unfortunately, this is not in any sort of measurable way, nobody is going to point directly at a bike path as a reasons to do business in this city, but these sort of things add up to making a city a better and more attractive place for stuff and things.

I think if you are interested in making your city a nice place to be, you have to invest some money into projects like this (parks are another obvious outlet).
     
Clinically Insane
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Jun 2, 2014, 09:30 PM
 
It really depends on how ****ed your community is.
     
Clinically Insane
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Jun 2, 2014, 09:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
It really depends on how ****ed your community is.

Agreed, and maybe the reaction Shaddim experienced was an expression of general dissatisfaction of resource allocation.
     
Posting Junkie
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Jun 2, 2014, 11:28 PM
 
My wife and I (mostly my wife) ran into a somewhat similar phenomena in a part of our town, but on a much smaller scale. Nearly 20 years ago now, we used to live on the Northeast side which was beginning to show signs of creeping degradation. My wife pitched a "mind-gym" to the local YMCA and community leadership offering to head up the program on a purely volunteer basis. She was getting absolutely nowhere and perceived she was being treated like a silly, idealistic white girl.

Granted, this is purely anecdotal, but I bring it up to suggest that perhaps there is more at play in such a counterintuitive response to what should really be a no-brainer.
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zro
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Jun 3, 2014, 12:56 AM
 
Silly poor people, afraid of such meaningless things as property tax and rent hikes. And to have the temerity to act like they can't afford them?? I mean realllly! It's not like they've never been homeless before! Amirite?

There are literally two sides to this story and I'm only hearing a patently lopsided one. Although I take it you merely posted this to complain, hence the interpretation above.

Maybe you could try to be mindful that any attempt to make waves in the lives of people living every day on thin ice is likely to cause them to believe you're going to drown them. Good intentions make a lousy lifevest.
     
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Jun 3, 2014, 07:11 AM
 
Nice. Of course, it's much more thoughtful and productive to deride philanthropy and volunteerism. I should remember your worthy fight against progress the next time a city-bond initiative for blighted areas makes its way to the ballot. Amirite?

In the scenario I gave, we were also broke and lived among the "silly poor people". Notwithstanding the fact that what my wife had proposed wouldn't have raised a dime of "rent" or "taxes" on anyone. It wasn't about building development as the building was already there. (from a city-bond initiative attempting to help the neighborhood BTW)

Otherwise, your response makes absolutely zro sense. Are you saying that life-vests are not effective at avoiding drowning because the intentions behind them were good?
ebuddy
     
Shaddim  (op)
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Jun 3, 2014, 07:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I can kinda, sorta see their point, and while yelling at you was unquestionably the wrong path to take, it goes back to something I mentioned in another thread.

How ****ed up must their situation be that they not only turn down a generous and kind offer, they proposal actually makes them mad?

It sounds like the community leaders feel there is a significant portion of neighborhood residents who don't have the prospects of living in a better neighborhood. To put it another way, the bullshit part of of that exchange was questioning your motives*, however the observation of likely effect sounds more or less accurate.



*Something which when it happens to me, as you may be aware, really frosts my ass.
Here's the deal, however, these people live in rent-controlled, gov't subsidized apts and housing (even including utilities). No one's going to be jacking up their cost of living, and a community center won't make anything else more expensive for them either, >80% of the residents who are upset live on EBT/SNAP benefits. Unfortunately, I wasn't there, I had an engine transplant to oversee and help with.

Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I've also heard resistance with these sort of proposals from small-c conservative types that generally seem to want to avoid coming up with new ways to spend their tax money. There was a proposal where we live to build a bike trail. It thankfully went through and the trail has been absolutely lovely and has already stimulated the economy, but there was a fair amount of resistance.

Part of this might be visions of gentrification and the bad aspects of such a thing, but could some of what you're observing be about conservative mentalities, Shaddim?

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with having a conservative mentality, so long as this isn't some sort of immovable default.
Looking at the comparisons, they aren't even close to the same. None of this is tax money, the city's input is the land it would sit on. It would actually save them money, because the center would be taking care of the property, not tax dollars. Needles to say, the city council jumped at the opportunity, because that area is becoming a crime-infested eyesore again. At one time they revitalized it and the environment made real changes, but when the economy went sour they ran out of funds to keep it up.

Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
How dare you make my neighborhood more attractive! My kids are happy playing with old tin cans, why would they need a bowling alley?

The mayor of our town turned an old school into a rec center. The basement is for roller skating and scooting, and she wants to put in a bowling alley. The rec center has lots of after school activities and is very popular, also makes money for the town.

I can see being more angry, say when a developer swoops in on a nice middleclass neighborhood, knocks down the 3br affordable houses, and builds expensive 6br mcMansions. That changes a neighborhood. Not sure if that's gentrification though...
I know. Fortunately it seems that more reasonable minds are coming forward, the initial reaction is what was most interesting. Now their kids and the younger people are weighing in and saying, "WTF? Someone wants to come in and make our lives better, help run off the pimps and gangbangers, and you're telling them to go away? What's wrong with you?"

Originally Posted by zro View Post
Silly poor people, afraid of such meaningless things as property tax and rent hikes. And to have the temerity to act like they can't afford them?? I mean realllly! It's not like they've never been homeless before! Amirite?

There are literally two sides to this story and I'm only hearing a patently lopsided one. Although I take it you merely posted this to complain, hence the interpretation above.

Maybe you could try to be mindful that any attempt to make waves in the lives of people living every day on thin ice is likely to cause them to believe you're going to drown them. Good intentions make a lousy lifevest.
So, you jump to conclusions about me, the same as what you've accused me of doing about them? There's the self-righteous Left I've come to expect from some around here. Is that your typical, conservative reaction? If you perpetually live in fear and distrust, then there's no point in living at all.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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zro
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Jun 3, 2014, 10:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by zro View Post
There are literally two sides to this story and I'm only hearing a patently lopsided one. Although I take it you merely posted this to complain, hence the interpretation above.

Maybe you could try to be mindful that any attempt to make waves in the lives of people living every day on thin ice is likely to cause them to believe you're going to drown them. Good intentions make a lousy lifevest.
Or you know, continue to fight to keep a closed mind about the experiences of others.


And ebuddy, don't play dumb.
     
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Jun 3, 2014, 04:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by zro View Post
Or you know, continue to fight to keep a closed mind about the experiences of others.


And ebuddy, don't play dumb.
Oh this is gonna be good.

Please, enlighten us all. You're awfully quick to blast others for their opinions and experiences without adding an iota of substance to the conversation. Help us understand: Why do you believe that some reacted the way they did to Shaddim? How would you have acted differently than Shaddim in that situation?
     
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Jun 3, 2014, 08:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by zro View Post
And ebuddy, don't play dumb.
I can't for the life of me understand what your complaint is. Perhaps if your post hadn't been hastily thrown out there with blatant disregard for exactly who or what you're arguing against, you wouldn't be met with what you're interpreting as stupidity.

For example, the reason most people with a lot of money do not propose what Shaddim has proposed is because, more often than not, it's a horrible investment. A nice building amongst homes in disrepair affects the value of the nice building far more profoundly than any other economic impact.

That's why Shaddim's offer was actually very gracious and should've at least been met with appreciation if not acceptance, rather than disrespect and belligerence. The attitude that both you and they are displaying is exactly why blight spreads.
ebuddy
     
zro
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Jun 5, 2014, 12:19 AM
 
I love to watch this MO that you characters who "need" every word and phrase spelled out for you. You act like you cannot even comprehend what the words "don't play dumb" mean by playing dumb. Laughable, and it exposes that you are aren't seeking understanding any more than Shad is seeking input or feedback. He came here to bitch about the reactions of people in a meeting he wasn't even at (was the quote in the OP even real?) without taking time to consider that they may have shitty experiences with situations like the one he outlines that are so heinous their trust of such endeavors is hard to win. I know you will again discount this because I'm not interested in stroking your ego. Or better yet, that you've never had such experiences so clearly no one else could have.

Fine, bitch about it, do what you gotta do, get it out of your system, but own it and don't expect everyone to feel the same, particularly given there is so very little information to go on aside from the aforementioned bitching. I wish him luck. With an attitude adjustment and the proper pitch from and to the right people they'll probably get somewhere.

I gave my input and even quoted it so hopefully he (and suddenly you and this snow guy for whatever reason) would make a second attempt to actually read, comprehend and take it to heart. It's plain and simple, so remember that if you can't understand it it's only because you won't.

Blight spreads because the poor don't trust the rich? That's a new one. I really can't imagine why... Let's phrase that another way: The needy don't trust the greedy. Well, natch.
     
Shaddim  (op)
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Jun 5, 2014, 12:45 AM
 
See, you think it's about what they said, how they reacted, when it isn't. I stopped caring about the words that most people use some time ago, they can't harm me. However, actions are a different matter. They're fortunate that we're persistent and aren't going to abort plans due to the ignorance of a relative few (most in that area want the center, but there is a loud minority who don't). You think I'm here to complain? To you? My point was to come here and share an anecdote with my efriends.

I think that's about it for wasting my time with you zro, you're going to twist anything else to suit whatever agenda you have (a general trait shared by most on the far Left). Your mind is set and would fracture before it would change, and I don't care about whatever else is rattling around in it, frankly.
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Jun 5, 2014, 07:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by zro View Post
I love to watch this MO that you characters who "need" every word and phrase spelled out for you. You act like you cannot even comprehend what the words "don't play dumb" mean by playing dumb. Laughable, and it exposes that you are aren't seeking understanding any more than Shad is seeking input or feedback. He came here to bitch about the reactions of people in a meeting he wasn't even at (was the quote in the OP even real?) without taking time to consider that they may have shitty experiences with situations like the one he outlines that are so heinous their trust of such endeavors is hard to win. I know you will again discount this because I'm not interested in stroking your ego. Or better yet, that you've never had such experiences so clearly no one else could have.
You asked me not to play dumb so I was trying to get an understanding of what it was you felt I was playing dumb about.

A. It's not about "seeking understanding" as the response he received was patently defeatist which is well-understood.
B. Again, plopping money down on a new shiny center in a blighted area is generally considered "throwing good money after bad" and is the reason why most will not propose such a contribution. But make no mistake, that's what Shaddim offered. A contribution. In your superior reading comprehension, you may have missed the part where I might understand they're non-acceptance of the plan, but there would be no reason to be disrespectful or belligerent.
C. Why would your quest for understanding begin with Silly poor people? This comes off as something only a gated-community leftist who has never been exposed to poverty might say as if you've got a lock on your caricature of what poor people might think. Sounds to me like the community wants it, but some community leaders (likely not "silly poor people") have let their own personal pridefulness and agendas run amok. I'm sorry your aggressive attempt to champion their knee-jerk pessimism is not met with "gee, you might have a point".

Fine, bitch about it, do what you gotta do, get it out of your system, but own it and don't expect everyone to feel the same, particularly given there is so very little information to go on aside from the aforementioned bitching. I wish him luck. With an attitude adjustment and the proper pitch from and to the right people they'll probably get somewhere.
If you felt there was too little information to go on, why wouldn't you ask for clarification or additional information before popping off into a knee-jerk antagonistic rant?

I gave my input and even quoted it so hopefully he (and suddenly you and this snow guy for whatever reason) would make a second attempt to actually read, comprehend and take it to heart. It's plain and simple, so remember that if you can't understand it it's only because you won't.
Perhaps in your infinite introspect, you would identify the very attitude in your own response to Shaddim's complaint in its lacking of comprehension and understanding. He told you what his MO was. If you felt he was misguided, there were a billion other ways to express it without vilifying gratuity.

Blight spreads because the poor don't trust the rich? That's a new one. I really can't imagine why... Let's phrase that another way: The needy don't trust the greedy. Well, natch.
I certainly won't accuse you of "playing" dumb here. The proposal wasn't pitched to the needy, it was pitched for the needy. And there's nothing worse than a self-loathing, rich leftist who doesn't understand what "needy" is.
ebuddy
     
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Jun 5, 2014, 09:19 AM
 
I understand in a way why the word leftist is being thrown around here, as they are the usual advocates of the poor, but I don't understand why you are equating zro's motives with being a self-loathing rich leftist. I consider myself on the left and I would welcome a rec center in my neighborhood. Perhaps I'm too rich to understand why someone would say no to such a good thing? :/

Another anecdote:
Down the hill is affordable housing complex. A few years ago when a school was retired, the playground equipment was moved up to the housing complex. A yard was landscaped, mulch put in, a gate was put up, it looked nice. I took my kids there. Then it got trashed. The gate was broken, litter everywhere, graffiti. After a few attempts, the city stopped trying to repair things when they just got broken again. Last fall, a famous-football-player-related charity decided to give the complex a new playground, because "they didn't have anything but some old broken equipment" and famous football player had grown up in the project and wanted to give back. Myself, I thought, that's very nice, but they had some nice equipment and trashed it. What will happen to the new stuff?

There will always be people who don't appreciate things, or take care of them. Which is too bad.
     
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Jun 5, 2014, 11:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I understand in a way why the word leftist is being thrown around here, as they are the usual advocates of the poor, but I don't understand why you are equating zro's motives with being a self-loathing rich leftist. I consider myself on the left and I would welcome a rec center in my neighborhood.
You could call it a side-effect of the media dating (at least) to the Bush era.


I consider myself part of the tea-party. Do you think I enjoy being called/implied as racist anytime the word comes up? People label things to help get a point across with context. I am not saying its right I'm just saying it's a part of human nature, for better or worse.

Perhaps I'm too rich to understand why someone would say no to such a good thing? :/
That's what I am hoping we can get to the bottom of - I find myself in the same position as you there.

Another anecdote:
Down the hill is affordable housing complex. A few years ago when a school was retired, the playground equipment was moved up to the housing complex. A yard was landscaped, mulch put in, a gate was put up, it looked nice. I took my kids there. Then it got trashed. The gate was broken, litter everywhere, graffiti. After a few attempts, the city stopped trying to repair things when they just got broken again. Last fall, a famous-football-player-related charity decided to give the complex a new playground, because "they didn't have anything but some old broken equipment" and famous football player had grown up in the project and wanted to give back. Myself, I thought, that's very nice, but they had some nice equipment and trashed it. What will happen to the new stuff?

There will always be people who don't appreciate things, or take care of them. Which is too bad.
This is why we can't have nice things. You're right that is a damn shame, but unfortunately a reality of human nature and wealth disparity.
     
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Jun 5, 2014, 03:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I understand in a way why the word leftist is being thrown around here, as they are the usual advocates of the poor, but I don't understand why you are equating zro's motives with being a self-loathing rich leftist. I consider myself on the left and I would welcome a rec center in my neighborhood. Perhaps I'm too rich to understand why someone would say no to such a good thing? :/

Another anecdote:
Down the hill is affordable housing complex. A few years ago when a school was retired, the playground equipment was moved up to the housing complex. A yard was landscaped, mulch put in, a gate was put up, it looked nice. I took my kids there. Then it got trashed. The gate was broken, litter everywhere, graffiti. After a few attempts, the city stopped trying to repair things when they just got broken again. Last fall, a famous-football-player-related charity decided to give the complex a new playground, because "they didn't have anything but some old broken equipment" and famous football player had grown up in the project and wanted to give back. Myself, I thought, that's very nice, but they had some nice equipment and trashed it. What will happen to the new stuff?

There will always be people who don't appreciate things, or take care of them. Which is too bad.
Are you really that clueless ?

They are fighting gentrification. That's why they destroy the nice things they get for free.
They love living in a dump. Who are we to tell them that life is better with nice things.

[/sarc]

-t
     
Shaddim  (op)
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Jun 5, 2014, 07:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I understand in a way why the word leftist is being thrown around here, as they are the usual advocates of the poor, but I don't understand why you are equating zro's motives with being a self-loathing rich leftist. I consider myself on the left and I would welcome a rec center in my neighborhood. Perhaps I'm too rich to understand why someone would say no to such a good thing? :/

Another anecdote:
Down the hill is affordable housing complex. A few years ago when a school was retired, the playground equipment was moved up to the housing complex. A yard was landscaped, mulch put in, a gate was put up, it looked nice. I took my kids there. Then it got trashed. The gate was broken, litter everywhere, graffiti. After a few attempts, the city stopped trying to repair things when they just got broken again. Last fall, a famous-football-player-related charity decided to give the complex a new playground, because "they didn't have anything but some old broken equipment" and famous football player had grown up in the project and wanted to give back. Myself, I thought, that's very nice, but they had some nice equipment and trashed it. What will happen to the new stuff?

There will always be people who don't appreciate things, or take care of them. Which is too bad.
A great deal of it is the mentality that there's some inherent nobility or wisdom in poverty. There isn't. Not that low income people are stupid, I'm not saying that, however there is a good deal of ignorance involved, stemming from terrible examples set by prominent individuals in society who have a personal agenda (that is, in part, racist). Is gentrification an issue when a whole portion of a city starts developing beyond the present citizens' financial means? (Stores, entertainment, and housing that these folks can't hope to afford.) Of course. However, a no-cost* community center is a benefit, it isn't a for-profit entity targeting a wealthier clientele.



(*Local residents get a free membership pass to go any time the center is open, and even bring guests, however people from outside the area may be required to pay fees to use certain facilities. That would help to potentially provide some funding, and keep the center, first and foremost, for the community.)
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Jun 5, 2014, 11:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I understand in a way why the word leftist is being thrown around here, as they are the usual advocates of the poor, but I don't understand why you are equating zro's motives with being a self-loathing rich leftist. I consider myself on the left and I would welcome a rec center in my neighborhood. Perhaps I'm too rich to understand why someone would say no to such a good thing? :/
This is a fair question. First, I don't really see "advocates of the poor" as being a left or right issue. (though statistically -- conservatives give more to the poor) Exploiting the poor however, has become a decidedly left-wing phenomena in it's combative relationship with disagreement. It has gotten to the point that what used to be considered tough love or even a mere offer of opportunity has become insulting and greedy and should be shamelessly demagogued to death. For example, we can't even discuss decreases in the rates of increases without it being hate of someone or something.

Gated community leftists are those who flock to the whitest, wealthiest places they can find on earth and then tell everybody else how they're mistreating the have-nots. They give less and complain more. They know firsthand how to step on people to get where they are so they assume everyone else with wealth is the same. They hate themselves and they're lashing out. All IMO. We'll have to take his word for it should he choose to correct me.

Another anecdote:
Down the hill is affordable housing complex. A few years ago when a school was retired, the playground equipment was moved up to the housing complex. A yard was landscaped, mulch put in, a gate was put up, it looked nice. I took my kids there. Then it got trashed. The gate was broken, litter everywhere, graffiti. After a few attempts, the city stopped trying to repair things when they just got broken again. Last fall, a famous-football-player-related charity decided to give the complex a new playground, because "they didn't have anything but some old broken equipment" and famous football player had grown up in the project and wanted to give back. Myself, I thought, that's very nice, but they had some nice equipment and trashed it. What will happen to the new stuff?

There will always be people who don't appreciate things, or take care of them. Which is too bad.
Too true and I think appreciation of things begins with caring for and respecting ourselves.
ebuddy
     
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Jun 6, 2014, 06:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Too true and I think appreciation of things begins with caring for and respecting ourselves.
It also begins with you putting your own hard-earned money / sweat / work into things.

It's much harder to appreciate things that seemingly come for free.

-t
     
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Jun 7, 2014, 11:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by zro View Post
Silly poor people, afraid of such meaningless things as property tax and rent hikes. And to have the temerity to act like they can't afford them?? I mean realllly! It's not like they've never been homeless before! Amirite?

There are literally two sides to this story and I'm only hearing a patently lopsided one. Although I take it you merely posted this to complain, hence the interpretation above.

Maybe you could try to be mindful that any attempt to make waves in the lives of people living every day on thin ice is likely to cause them to believe you're going to drown them. Good intentions make a lousy lifevest.
Interesting how I was able to make a similar comment without oozing my imagined moral superiority out of every pore.
     
Shaddim  (op)
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Jun 7, 2014, 02:21 PM
 
Fancy that?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Posting Junkie
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Jun 8, 2014, 08:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Interesting how I was able to make a similar comment without oozing my imagined moral superiority out of every pore.
It seems the hottest stars burn out the fastest.
ebuddy
     
   
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