Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Police discrimination, misconduct, Ferguson, MO, the Roman Legion, and now math???

Police discrimination, misconduct, Ferguson, MO, the Roman Legion, and now math???
Thread Tools
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 09:08 AM
 
This thread has to be started. I've never seen anything quite like this in my lifetime. I feel like I'm getting a small taste of the 60s.

Already we're having reporters arrested, then released, with the police chief explaining "They don't know any better." (The arresting officers)

The same police chief thinks this:


falls under:
STL County Police Chief Belmar: "We've done everything we can to demonstrate a remarkable amount of restraint."

They've tear gassed people's own front lawns



including media set-ups


We have groups escalating things with molotov cocktails


Which honestly, is just the excuse the police are looking for, resulting in stuff like this


There are so many directions I could take this in, but I'll just leave this OP for now, and let the PL take its course...
( Last edited by Thorzdad; Oct 9, 2014 at 02:03 PM. Reason: Requested title change)
     
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 01:03 PM
 


Senator Rand Paul on Ferguson: We Must Demilitarize the Police - TIME
Anyone who thinks that race does not skew the application of criminal justice in this country is just not paying close enough attention. And the root of the problem is big government.

The shooting of 18-year-old Michael Brown is an awful tragedy that continues to send shockwaves through the community of Ferguson, Missouri and across the nation.

If I had been told to get out of the street as a teenager, there would have been a distinct possibility that I might have smarted off. But, I wouldn’t have expected to be shot.

The outrage in Ferguson is understandable—though there is never an excuse for rioting or looting. There is a legitimate role for the police to keep the peace, but there should be a difference between a police response and a military response.

The images and scenes we continue to see in Ferguson resemble war more than traditional police action.

https://twitter.com/JamilSmith/statu...57400712282113
Rep. John Lewis, on @msnbc, just called for President Obama to declare martial law in Ferguson. That was unexpected.
     
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 02:03 PM
 
St. Louis County Police to Be Removed From Ferguson: Clay - Bloomberg

Missouri Governor Jay Nixon will announce that St. Louis County law enforcement will be relieved of duty in Ferguson, which has been roiled by protests after the shooting death by police of an unarmed teenager, according to U.S. Representative William Lacy Clay.
     
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 02:26 PM
 
Is martial law legal on US soil? The Constitution rules, and I don't recall an exception, where military rule can replace civil law.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 02:32 PM
 
My only comment on this situation is "man, this has really gone off the rails."
     
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Nashua NH, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 03:05 PM
 
In the US I think the governor of the state can call on the National Guard in times of crisis. The police aren't intended to handle everything. They can only enforce civil law though. They themselves are still accountable to military law.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 03:11 PM
 
One could argue if the problem is an overmilitarized police force, replacing them with infantry may be a mistake.
     
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 03:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
One could argue
But will one argue it?
     
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 03:22 PM
 
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 03:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
But will one argue it?
I think I just did.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 03:26 PM
 
Those cops really ****ed up by messing with the press.
     
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 03:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think I just did.
Well you didn't really present much of an argument. More of a statement.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Those cops really ****ed up by messing with the press.
You're right and that's another aspect that is depressing. Would they have grilled the police had they not been collateral damage?
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 03:32 PM
 
Obama stated there's never an excuse for violence against the police.

Without commenting about this specific situation, this statement is quite simply incorrect.
     
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 03:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Obama stated there's never an excuse for violence against the police.

Without commenting about this specific situation, this statement is quite simply incorrect.
Obama's statement was incredibly neutered. I was thinking today, I wonder if post-presidency Obama will be more like Dick Cheney or H.W. (i.e., unafraid to speak his mind or fairly reserved). Because I feel like whatever Obama believes, it was nowhere to be found in that speech – and its really sad.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 03:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Well you didn't really present much of an argument. More of a statement.
I figured it was relatively obvious.

The problem has been exacerbated by cops equipping themselves and behaving like soldiers.

Would not replacing cops with actual soldiers risk destabilizing the situation even more?

Even the worst cop is at least trained to be cop. A National Guardsman is trained to take and hold ground.


Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
You're right and that's another aspect that is depressing. Would they have grilled the police had they not been collateral damage?
Nope.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 03:51 PM
 
My last answer there was unfairly flip.

I think the press on scene wouldn't behave any differently. What's been affected is how much people in the press not on scene care.

It's become personal.
     
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 03:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I figured it was relatively obvious.

The problem has been exacerbated by cops equipping themselves and behaving like soldiers.

Would not replacing cops with actual soldiers risk destabilizing the situation even more?

Even the worst cop is at least trained to be cop. A National Guardsman is trained to take and hold ground.
Counterpoint: https://storify.com/AthertonKD/veterans-on-ferguson

A few people have pointed it out, but our ROE regarding who we could point weapons at in Afghanistan was more restrictive than cops in MO.
We've decided, as a society, that local police forces need greater armor capabilities than an invasion force in 2003.
LRAD (Long Range Acoustic Device), the last place I saw one of those was at the Iraqi detention facility.
The basic takeaway seems to be the police are like kids playing dress-up. They have the equipment, but they don't know if its necessary, let alone when to use it. I mean, why are they in camo?!
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 03:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Obama's statement was incredibly neutered. I was thinking today, I wonder if post-presidency Obama will be more like Dick Cheney or H.W. (i.e., unafraid to speak his mind or fairly reserved). Because I feel like whatever Obama believes, it was nowhere to be found in that speech – and its really sad.
It's hard not to be cliche about this, but his statements reflect someone who cares more about the law than they care about justice.

My cynicism can't help but link this attitude with where his power originates.
     
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 03:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My last answer there was unfairly flip.
I was fine with it, as it was mostly a rhetorical question. Obviously getting caught in the crossfire ups ones investment.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 04:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Counterpoint: https://storify.com/AthertonKD/veterans-on-ferguson

The basic takeaway seems to be the police are like kids playing dress-up. They have the equipment, but they don't know if its necessary, let alone when to use it. I mean, why are they in camo?!
I noticed the camo thing. I was going to comment on it but it occurred to me it's something of a toss-up whether camo is worse than SWAT black.

As for the RoE in Afghanistan, I'm not saying the NG are incapable of doing the job, I'm saying it's not what they're designed to do. Further, since what's being railed against is militarization, bringing in the actual military will make the issue worse, if only from a perception standpoint.

This situation is so ****ed up it feels like the NG would be an improvement. I think the reality is once US soldiers start pouring out of APCs, things have gotten significantly worse.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 04:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I was fine with it, as it was mostly a rhetorical question. Obviously getting caught in the crossfire ups ones investment.
That's the thing. The media who are actually there are risking getting caught in the crossfire by being there. They wouldn't open themselves up to that unless they were willing to dig.

It's the people in the media who are safe at home. They think to themselves "that could have been me". It's not just faceless poor people anymore, now it's one of their own.
     
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 05:11 PM
 
As others have mentioned, the NG is probably the wrong move. Maybe they'd be reserved and not make things worse. But.

I'd rather they replaced the local police with state troopers, who are still trained as police rather than soldiers. Or call for police volunteers from other cities to replace the bad ones. Deployed with reasonable gear - keep the automatic weapons in the trunk. And the APC in storage.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 05:16 PM
 
They've just been replaced with the Highway Patrol.
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 06:47 PM
 
I'll contribute more to the thread as I can later. For now here's some food for thought ....

STL County PD has been shooting rubber bullets and tear gas and flash bang grenades and smoke bombs at PEACEFUL PROTESTORS for the last 3 nights in a row. Please note that the LOOTING occurred on Sunday night only. 32 arrested. Most of whom were not from Ferguson and many of those the cops described as "known criminals". But what has been going on since then is against DEMONSTRATORS. Some of whom were standing behind a fence on their own property:

Ferguson Police Fire Tear Gas Protesters with "Hands Up" in Their Own Backyard | YouTube.com

Key images from the the peaceful demonstrations:



I love how this brother is standing there with this look on his face like .... "Really???"






More tear gas on peaceful demonstrators. Please note that the last image is of a guy throwing a tear gas canister BACK towards the police.







The theme of the protests. "Hands up! Don't Shoot!". Because Mike Brown was shot twice, the second time in the back while fleeing, and was then EXECUTED when he turned around and put his hands in the air and asked the cop to stop shooting.



Howard University students in solidarity all the way in Washington, DC.





A tad bit overkill? N'est-ce pas?



But when it's all said and done these young people are standing strong! (And note the bandanas are not because these guys are out doing dirt. It's to help breathe through the tear gas and the smoke bombs). And all the excessive force that you see above? That is NOT because the crowds have been violent. It's because the peaceful demonstrators refused to disperse when the STL County PD ordered them to. Last time I checked there was this Freedom of Assembly clause the Constitution. Or does that not apply in certain neighborhoods?

These militarized police units have been INSTIGATING the conflict. Their tactics are ESCALATING the tension. Dakar posted a picture above showing a small group of guys with molotov cocktails. And again, that was in RESPONSE to 3 days of attacks like you see above. Gov. Nixon has just ordered STL County PD to stand down. The state troopers are in charge of security from now on. An African-American state trooper captain is in command now. And they have pledged to adopt a "less confrontational" posture towards the demonstrators. We shall see what goes down tonight. All I can say is that putting a black face out front and maintaining the same excessive tactics is not going to fly. Not even a little bit.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Aug 14, 2014 at 07:40 PM. )
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 07:59 PM
 
More protests going on at the Gateway Arch as we speak. This rally was organized sometime today and it's already attracted several hundreds of people.



OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Aug 15, 2014 at 02:11 AM. )
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2014, 08:02 PM
 
All citizens are under the government's thumb, and cowboy PD officers are the least of it. There's been too much consolidated power for too long, with career politicians, untouchable federal thugs, and greedy corporations.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 15, 2014, 09:15 AM
 
Man, what a difference a day makes. Turns out when you don't treat civilians like animals to be pent up or rioters-in-waiting, they react well!

I dunno who gave the Highway Patrol Captain a crash course in public relations and crowd control strategy but the result has been downright heartwarming.





It's about the subtle messaging, too. Having a face-off with cops in riot gear versus having them mingle unarmored among you – what a difference in body-language.



Man, I feel a lot better this morning.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 15, 2014, 11:36 AM
 
I'll admit, when I heard highway patrol, that was the last group I'd imagine being called in.

I wonder if the highway patrol background is helping. That's (ironically) one of the more dangerous cop gigs, while at the same time, there's a certain expectation of politeness when busting someone on a chickenshit offense.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 15, 2014, 02:47 PM
 
They're state police, compared to a local PD they're more experienced and generally more professional in their demeanor, that goes a long ways.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Your Anus
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 15, 2014, 09:25 PM
 
Always fun to have your hometown in the spotlight... ugh...

It's funny how they keep calling Ferguson a "small town". It's not a small town. It's suburban sprawl out from the city, 15 minutes from downtown St. Louis.

This whole thing has been a giant cluster****. What I hate about events like this, where no one really knows exactly what happened... is that everyone uses it as a blank canvas to fill in their own details and reinforce their already existing point of view.

My sig is 1 pixel too big.
     
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Aug 15, 2014, 10:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
What I hate about events like this ... is that everyone uses it as a blank canvas to fill in their own details and reinforce their already existing point of view.
You're right. Lack of ISP competition greatly affected things.

But my opinion on the causes hasn't changed, so I guess you're right. Militarization of police, officers having more rights than we have, harassing those recording events (citizens, journalists), lack of impartial video evidence. ie - dashcams the local cops had, but didn't install in the cars.

I don't think race had much to do with the escalation. Probably with the original shooting. But the escalation came from having military equipment available, and gee whiz, let's use this cool gear. Treat demonstrators as the enemies they are.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2014, 01:22 AM
 
The young man who was killed was apparently involved in a convenience store robbery an hour before the shooting and the owner did call the police, but I've heard conflicting reports on whether an APB with his description had been made prior to the altercation.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2014, 03:07 AM
 
Odd choice to play that one as close to the Kevlar vest as they did.
     
Professional Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Just west of DC.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2014, 06:56 AM
 
So I guess common sense like STAYING OFF THE STREETS didn't occur to these demonstrators? Boo-Hoo on getting tear gassed. Looters should have been shot too. Remove the violent in our society. So, now they've gotten rid of those stores by looting them. How much further must they go to shop? Looks like their emotional outburst are hurting them too.
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2014, 10:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
This whole thing has been a giant cluster****. What I hate about events like this, where no one really knows exactly what happened... is that everyone uses it as a blank canvas to fill in their own details and reinforce their already existing point of view.


At present, all we know is the following;
  • cop shoots kid under extremely murky justification for one shot, let alone as many as 10?
  • kid was thuggin', plain and simple. Cop tells you to get off the street, regardless of whether or not you feel an empowered rush having just gotten away with strong-arming some cigars from the local Convenience store; you get off the street.
ebuddy
     
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2014, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
This whole thing has been a giant cluster****. What I hate about events like this, where no one really knows exactly what happened... is that everyone uses it as a blank canvas to fill in their own details and reinforce their already existing point of view.
We know what happened afterwards: the police rolled up in military gear to »control« demonstrations, they hindered journalists from doing their job and stonewalled by not giving out any information on the case. If that's the attitude of the local police department -- supported and nurtured by the higher-ups, an overly aggressive reaction on the police officer's part fits the atmosphere.

The problem is that there is no video, so all we have to rely on are witnesses and forensic evidence. Also, as far as I understand, Brown is only a suspect in the robbery case. But even if he did steal cigars and some candy, I don't think it changes much when it comes to the circumstances of his death.
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
The young man who was killed was apparently involved in a convenience store robbery an hour before the shooting and the owner did call the police, but I've heard conflicting reports on whether an APB with his description had been made prior to the altercation.
According to the police chief, the officer who shot Brown did not know he was a suspect in a robbery.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2014, 12:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
At present, all we know is the following;
  • cop shoots kid under extremely murky justification for one shot, let alone as many as 10?
  • kid was thuggin', plain and simple. Cop tells you to get off the street, regardless of whether or not you feel an empowered rush having just gotten away with strong-arming some cigars from the local Convenience store; you get off the street.
Yes, you shouldn't mouth off to police officers or defy them, but if that were a sufficient reason for getting killed, a lot of teenagers would end up in body bags. After all, it's medically proven that a person's reasoning skills don't fully develop until you're 25.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2014, 12:20 PM
 
The cigar store is confusing. I haven't read anything about cleaning the register - only about stealing a handful (or two) of cigars. While ignoring the cameras.

I also haven't heard anyone who knew the guys confirm their identity in the security pix.

Why would anyone -cough- steal cigars?
     
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2014, 12:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
The cigar store is confusing. I haven't read anything about cleaning the register - only about stealing a handful (or two) of cigars. While ignoring the cameras.

I also haven't heard anyone who knew the guys confirm their identity in the security pix.

Why would anyone -cough- steal cigars?
I don't fully get the story either: as far as I understand, two guys, one of them was supposedly Brown, enter a convenience store, steal a few cigars and some candy, and strong arm the cashier a little. I can't make out much on the pixelated stills I have seen online.

Overall, I agree, the story seems a bit weird, and I'm a bit concerned that public discourse is steered away from »cop shoots unarmed jaywalking kid ten times« to »cop shoots robber in the line of duty«. Even if the allegations are true and Brown stole a few cigars, according to the police the officer who shot Brown didn't know he was suspected to have stolen a few bucks worth of items from a convenience store.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2014, 01:53 PM
 
If there's any legitimacy to the claim Brown went for the cop's gun, or appeared to be doing so, then that's a life-threatening situation. Once the person stops doing that though, as in they're running away, the situation is no longer life-threatening.

That said, if a cop starts manhandling you, there's not much difference between the motion of pushing the cop away, and reaching for the cop's gun.

To further complicate matters, I've said before it's unrealistic to expect someone not to defend themselves when getting manhandled by a cop.
     
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2014, 02:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If there's any legitimacy to the claim Brown went for the cop's gun, or appeared to be doing so, then that's a life-threatening situation. Once the person stops doing that though, as in they're running away, the situation is no longer life-threatening.

That said, if a cop starts manhandling you, there's not much difference between the motion of pushing the cop away, and reaching for the cop's gun.
We only have the cop's word on that, and cops do get a bonus when they have to face the consequences in a court of law -- even if there is a video tape. And yes, if you can interpret resistance to man-handling as an attack on the cop's life, I reckon a lot of suspects could be killed without any consequences for the cop. A lot of this depends on the specific laws in Missouri, and since I'm not a lawyer, I can't comment on those. Morally, I agree with you, IMHO a police officer who thinks it's necessary to shoot an unarmed man 10 times after he's no longer a threat is not fit for duty and belongs in jail.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2014, 02:17 PM
 
To be clear, resistance to being manhandled isn't justification in and of itself. There has to be the impression the person is trying to take your weapon.

A big part of my point though is the difference isn't necessarily easy to determine.
     
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2014, 02:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
To be clear, resistance to being manhandled isn't justification in and of itself. There has to be the impression the person is trying to take your weapon.
… but that's something the cop can always claim, »I thought he was going for my gun …« So even if you can prove that Brown wasn't you still don't know what the cop thought. It's an impossible standard and consequently not a good criterion in a court of law.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
A big part of my point though is the difference isn't necessarily easy to determine.
… and I don't think that's relevant for 9 out of 10 shots. Because I don't think you can convict the cop on his first shot, just the others.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2014, 02:34 PM
 
Absolutely. The fact the cop can always claim that unless there's video evidence to the contrary. Shit... cops will claim that even if there is video evidence to the contrary.

"We have no idea how that hard drive got erased."

Likewise, as you say, the going for the gun defense is only a defense if someone's going for your gun. By definition, a fleeing suspect can't do that.
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2014, 04:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Yes, you shouldn't mouth off to police officers or defy them, but if that were a sufficient reason for getting killed, a lot of teenagers would end up in body bags. After all, it's medically proven that a person's reasoning skills don't fully develop until you're 25.
Good point. This is why more facts are necessary. Wrangling a cop over his gun can and will get you killed.
ebuddy
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2014, 04:09 PM
 
A system that defaults toward protecting alleged criminals also applies to allegedly criminal police. You either appreciate this systemic burden of proof or you do not. Too many would prefer to go directly for a noose when it comes to a cop. I'm not one of them.
ebuddy
     
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2014, 04:54 PM
 
Sad to hear things reversed course last night. Reports I heard implied it was out of towers looking to loot. Saw pictures of townsfolk forming barricades around some shops. Semi-heartening, at least.
     
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 16, 2014, 04:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Good point. This is why more facts are necessary. Wrangling a cop over his gun can and will get you killed.
No, not necessarily, you don't need to kill someone to bring the situation back under control. One of the few things we do know for sure is that Brown has been killed by a bulled fired from a distance of about 12 m. That means at the time of death, Brown was nowhere near the police man's gun. And I sure hope that the police officer's aim is good enough shot to say, shoot Brown in the leg. Or he could have run after him after calling for backup (remember, at that point, Brown was already struck by a bullet).

So to me, no, in this particular instance, I don't think the death of a young teen was an inevitable outcome. And seeing how the local police reacted, I reckon the proclivity to escalation is a home-made problem. (It's not very often that war veterans are jealous of police men's gear or call their behavior unprofessional.)
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2014, 12:21 AM
 
It was a horrible thing, bad all around, but the media grabbing on to the "young teen" angle is disingenuous. They called the man "Big Mike" for a reason, he was 6'3" and weighed over 300lbs. He wasn't a little kid, as many imply, at least not physically, he was a grown man (and a relatively huge one, at that).
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 17, 2014, 07:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
No, not necessarily, you don't need to kill someone to bring the situation back under control. One of the few things we do know for sure is that Brown has been killed by a bulled fired from a distance of about 12 m. That means at the time of death, Brown was nowhere near the police man's gun. And I sure hope that the police officer's aim is good enough shot to say, shoot Brown in the leg. Or he could have run after him after calling for backup (remember, at that point, Brown was already struck by a bullet).

So to me, no, in this particular instance, I don't think the death of a young teen was an inevitable outcome. And seeing how the local police reacted, I reckon the proclivity to escalation is a home-made problem. (It's not very often that war veterans are jealous of police men's gear or call their behavior unprofessional.)
Any particular reason why we can't wait for additional evidence, any that might be confirmed? Your link doesn't purport to say what you claim we know for certain, only that we absolutely know the following;

1) Wilson shot and killed Brown in the early afternoon of Saturday, August 9, outside of an apartment complex.

2) Brown was unarmed. The shell casings found on scene were from Wilson's gun.

3) Wilson fired at least one round from his squad car. Brown died about 35 feet from the car.

4) Wilson has been on the police force for six years, and he has no disciplinary action on his record. He has been put on paid administrative leave following the shooting.

That's it. That's all we know for certain. If there is a gunshot to this kid's back, Wilson's likely going to go down for this, but we need autopsy results for a definitive idea of whose account is most valid. I know people love to hang cops because they have badges and guns and every incident that sheds poor light on a cop goes viral, but I think calmer heads once again should prevail here.
ebuddy
     
 
Thread Tools
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:13 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2015 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2