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Police discrimination, misconduct, Ferguson, MO, the Roman Legion, and now math??? (Page 10)
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OAW
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Oct 1, 2014, 04:09 PM
 
Now the previous situation I cited was a case of Walking While Black. But not to be outdone, this brother has a case of Working While Black ....

A young Florida black man has been stopped and questioned by police in Miami Gardens 258 times in four years, searched more than 100 times and arrested 56 times, the Miami Herald is reporting.

But out of all that activity, the most serious conviction for Earl Sampson, 28, has been possession of marijuana, according to the news organization.

Sixty-two times, Miami Gardens police have arrested Sampson for trespassing at the 207 Quickstop -- that's the convenience store where he works as a clerk, the Herald reports.

Owner Alex Saleh, 26, says he has been looking for answers for the period of more than a year in which he's watched Sampson, other 207 Quickstop employees and customers stopped and frisked day after day by Miami Gardens police. Most of those stopped, including Sampson, are poor and black, Saleh says. Some have been stopped three times in the same day, Saleh told the Herald.

To help him figure out what was going on, Saleh installed 15 video cameras in his store in June 2012. What the cameras produced raise troubling questions about the conduct of Miami Gardens police, the Herald reports.

The videos show cops stopping people, aggressively searching them, arresting them for trespassing in places where their presence presents no violation, searching Saleh's business without warrants or permission and using what appears to be excessive force on people who are not resisting arrest.

"There is just no justifying this kind of behavior," police policy consultant Chuck Drago told the Herald. "Nobody can justify overstepping the constitution to fight crime."

Neither Miami Gardens Police Chief Matthew Boyd nor City Manager Cameron Benson responded to repeated phone messages and emails requesting comment, the Herald reports.

Saleh and his lawyer, Steve Lopez, are preparing a federal civil rights lawsuit claiming that the police department routinely directed officers to engage in racial profiling and illegal stops and searches, the Herald reports.

Miami Gardens has struggled with gang violence and drug-related crime. Murders have more than doubled in recent years, state crime figures show. It is the third largest city in Miami-Dade, with 109,000 residents. The population is predominantly black and many of the members of the police department are white and Hispanic, according to the Herald.
Miami-area police agency charged with racial profiling | USAToday.com

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Oct 1, 2014, 04:25 PM
 
That sounds like a department that needs to be flushed down the toilet.
     
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Oct 1, 2014, 04:25 PM
 
Agreed.

Sounds disturbingly similar to how the Jennings police department in St. Louis County operated before it was finally disbanded.

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( Last edited by OAW; Oct 1, 2014 at 04:44 PM. )
     
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Oct 1, 2014, 04:33 PM
 
Circling back on some earlier foolishness in the thread ...

Originally Posted by Chongo
Move along, nothing to see here. (Black cop, dead white kid)

On the surface, the cases appear nearly identical: Michael Brown and Dillon Taylor, two young, unarmed men with sketchy criminal pasts shot to death by police officers two days apart.

But while the world knows of the highly publicized situation involving 18-year-old Mr. Brown, whose Aug. 9 death in Ferguson, Missouri touched off violence, protests and an angry national debate, most people outside Utah have never heard of 20-year-old Mr. Taylor.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...#ixzz3BWM2APHM
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter
It looks like they missed a great opportunity to loot and pillage.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar
Originally Posted by Chongo
It looks like they missed a great opportunity to loot and pillage.
That is an incredibly ignorant and inflammatory thing to say.
Originally Posted by OAW
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar
That is an incredibly ignorant and inflammatory thing to say.
Unfortunately that's par for the course with him.

Regarding the rather limited substance of his point. First of all “not a white officer” does not necessarily mean a "black officer". Especially in Utah. Additionally, there is a fundamental difference in the optics of being an unarmed person shot with your hands in the air vs being an unarmed person shot while reaching into your pants. If it was simplistically about Brown being black and Wilson being white ... then when two white officers shot an allegedly mentally unstable black man with 9 bullets ... 2 after he was already on the ground ... a couple of days ago STL would have been up in arms about that too. But of course, that doesn't fit into the trollish narrative so never mind all that.

OAW
Well thanks to the body cam worn by Officer Bron Cruz he has been cleared.

A police officer was legally justified in shooting an unarmed man, a Salt Lake City district attorney said Tuesday, in a decision based on video from the officer's body camera. The case is the first time the district attorney there has relied on body-cam evidence to determine whether an officer-involved shooting could be justified.

Dillon Taylor, 20, was shot to death by Salt Lake City officer Bron Cruz on Aug. 11 after police received a report about three men who were seen near a 7-Eleven, possibly flashing a gun, reported NBC affiliate KSL. The men — Taylor, along with his brother and cousin — are seen on Cruz's body-cam video in the parking lot when Cruz pulls in. Taylor's brother and cousin stop and put up their hands; Taylor keeps walking, head down.

Cruz can be heard on the video yelling, "Get your hands up now," to which Taylor responds, "No, fool." He then raises his shirt and pulls his hands from his waistband. In response, Cruz fires off two shots, hitting Taylor in the chest and stomach, KSL said.

While no weapon was found on Taylor, Salt Lake County District Attorney Sim Gill said in a news conference Tuesday that based on all the evidence from the incident, he had decided Cruz was justified in his actions.

"I believe that the camera was extremely helpful to enlighten the community on what the officers actually saw at the scene and the decision-making process the officer went through," he said, according to KSL.

More than a thousand police departments throughout the U.S. use body cameras. Officers in Ferguson, Missouri, began wearing them weeks after a cop there shot and killed unarmed teenager Michael Brown.
You can see the video footage yourself here ....

D.A.: Body-Cam Video Justifies Utah Officer Shooting of Unarmed Man - NBC News

And oh BTW ... as I said before “not a white officer” does not necessarily mean a "black officer". And given the name Bron Cruz and this image from the body cam ....



... well I'll just leave it at that.

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Oct 2, 2014, 03:32 PM
 
     
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Oct 7, 2014, 10:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Everyone's right to protest was not suspended. In fact, in most cases the police were providing a safe environment for conducting the protest. Many of the arrests came from "failure to disperse" as part of police responsibility is to separate protestors from hostiles. Their methodology was to keep people moving. They could move back and forth with signs and chants, but they couldn't stop and loiter because the problems were identified with hostiles "mixing in" to growing crowds.
Surprise! The courts disagree.
Police Violated Constitutional Rights Of Ferguson Protesters, Federal Judge Rules
Police overseeing security at protests in Ferguson, Missouri, in August violated the constitutional rights of demonstrators and journalists by forcing them to stay in constant motion and not stop walking, a federal judge ruled on Monday.

Chief U.S. District Judge Catherine D. Perry held that the "practice of requiring peaceful demonstrators and others to walk, rather than stand still, violates the Constitution." She issued a preliminary injunction banning St. Louis County Police and Missouri State Highway Patrol officers from using the tactic.
The "keep walking" or "five-second" rule was implemented in Ferguson on Aug. 18. Police officers would not allow anyone to congregate, even on public sidewalks, even in broad daylight.

Highway Patrol Capt. Ron Johnson defended the practice at the time, saying the police were "not violating your rights. We're allowing you to protest." The federal judge disagreed.

During a hearing last month, St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar said that the keep-walking rule was never meant to be enforced during the day and that there had been a miscommunication over the issue.
     
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Oct 7, 2014, 01:27 PM
 
     
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Oct 7, 2014, 01:36 PM
 

At about 10:25 a small blonde lady starts yelling at the protesters: "We're the ones who gave all y'all the freedoms that you have!"
Lady, I know you're blonde, but how retarded are you?


At 17:10 a Cardinals fans tells the protesters that they need to remove their hats and pull up their pants.
The obsession with pants is palpable.
     
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Oct 7, 2014, 03:46 PM
 
It would appear Riding While Black (RWB) is now an issue as well ....

An Indiana man whose car window was smashed and who was Tasered by police after a traffic stop said Tuesday that "it felt like my civil rights were just thrown out the window, along with my body."

Lisa Mahone and her boyfriend Jamal Jones were driving on Sept. 24 in Hammond, Indiana, with Mahone's two kids in the back seat when Mahone was stopped and ticketed for driving without wearing a seat belt. The stop was caught on cellphone camera by Mahone's 14-year-old son.

"Thank goodness Joseph took the video, because the video stands for itself that these officers engaged in excessive force," attorney Dana Kurtz said in a news conference with the couple Tuesday.

In the video, officers ask Jones, who was in the passenger seat, to show his ID. However, he did not have his license on him. Officers then appear to draw guns and order him out of the car, prompting Mahone to call 911. The video shows police shattering the passenger window and using a stun-gun on Jones. Lawyers say the two children suffered minor cuts from flying glass. The lawsuit alleges excessive force, false arrest and battery.

In a statement earlier Tuesday, Hammond police said, "Police officers who make legal traffic stops are allowed to ask passengers inside of a stopped vehicle for identification and to request that they exit a stopped vehicle for the officer's safety without a requirement of reasonable suspicion. When the passenger displayed movements inside of the stopped vehicle that included placing his hand in places where the officer could not see, officers' concerns for their safety were heightened."

Mahone said since being pulled over, "I'm really in a state of shock."
Tasered Passenger: 'My Civil Rights Were Just Thrown Out the Window' - NBC News

More video footage so everyone can see for themselves. The lady gets pulled over for a seatbelt violation. Ok fine. But then the police decide to go on a fishing expedition. Why are they even asking Mr. Jones for his ID when he's just a passenger and NOT operating the vehicle? But the did. So he looks for it in his book bag and the officers cops then pull weapons on him. Again, if you ASK the man for his ID then why is the first thing that pops into your mind is that he's reaching for a gun and NOT his ID? Turns out Mr. Jones doesn't have his license on him because they are in route to the hospital where his mother is about to pass away at any moment. In the meantime the driver calls 911 on these officers cops because they are clearly over the top. The officers then demand that he step out of the vehicle which he is unsurprisingly not inclined to do since a simple traffic stop has just gone south in a big way. But this officer decides to break the window out with a crowbar and tase the man in front of his 2 children in the back seat. Kids are cut up from flying glass too.

So I'll pose this question again. Given how this type of sh*t goes down day in and day out around the country with white officers cops and black men ... is there still any question why most black people don't trust the police as far as they can throw them? Any lingering questions about why Ferguson erupted like it did?

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Oct 7, 2014, 03:52 PM
 
When the passenger displayed movements inside of the stopped vehicle that included placing his hand in places where the officer could not see, officers' concerns for their safety were heightened.
Isn't the door handle outside the officer's line of sight, or did they open the door for him to exit?

But yeah, why do they want the ID of a dude in the passenger seat?
     
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Oct 7, 2014, 03:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar
Isn't the door handle outside the officer's line of sight, or did they open the door for him to exit?
Given where the officers cops were standing they would have a hard time seeing him reach for the door handle. They could just as easily claim he was reaching for a weapon in the side door pocket.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar
But yeah, why do they want the ID of a dude in the passenger seat?
So they can check to see if he has any outstanding warrants.

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Oct 7, 2014, 04:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
So they can check to see if he has any outstanding warrants.
Sorry that was a rhetorical question. Or more it was a general question as in "Why would they want to see any passenger's ID.

Fishing expedition is right.
     
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Oct 8, 2014, 09:25 AM
 
     
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Oct 8, 2014, 11:55 AM
 
^^^

Yeah I saw that yesterday. Looks like the local officials botched the initial report.

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Oct 8, 2014, 01:31 PM
 
So, what good is due process?

REPORT: Missouri Authorities Planning for Riots if Ferguson Officer Not Indicted « CBS St. Louis

I wonder how many of the LOW IQ Rioters know what "Justice" is?
     
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Oct 8, 2014, 03:13 PM
 
There are 8 eyewitnesses who saw Darren Wilson shoot Mike Brown in broad daylight. Some saw the entire thing including when Mike Brown's hands were in the air. Some only saw portions. Absolutely none saw Mike Brown ever "bum rush" or otherwise attack Officer Wilson. "Due process" would have been to arrest and charge Wilson on that basis alone as the law allows. As opposed to the STL County Prosecutor pawning it off on a grand jury and not even bothering to recommend a charge. Especially when said County Prosecutor has extensive personal and professional ties to local police and who on four previous occasions has failed to indict white police officers who have killed unarmed black men under "questionable" circumstances. A County Prosecutor who was exposed as having lied to the public about the nature of secret grand jury testimony in one of those cases.

As I said earlier ... all indications thus far suggest that the "fix" is in. And if that turns out to be the case then I fear that the unrest we've seen around here so far will be rather tame in comparison to what may come.

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Oct 9, 2014, 09:18 AM
 
So, what do the riots accomplish? MORE hatred for the black community? More distrust. Less blacks offered jobs?
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 10:16 AM
 
It doesn't seem to matter what the facts are anymore. Riots for riots' sake.

Protesters Take To South St. Louis Streets After Officer Involved Shooting « CBS St. Louis
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 10:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So, what do the riots accomplish? MORE hatred for the black community? More distrust. Less blacks offered jobs?
Never understood the whole thing. "We're pissed, now we're going to wreck our own communities!" How does that make any sense?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Oct 9, 2014, 11:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Never understood the whole thing. "We're pissed, now we're going to wreck our own communities!" How does that make any sense?
Is anger supposed to make sense?
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 11:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So, what do the riots accomplish? MORE hatred for the black community? More distrust. Less blacks offered jobs?
What does a riot have to do with job qualifications?!
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 11:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
It doesn't seem to matter what the facts are anymore. Riots for riots' sake.

Protesters Take To South St. Louis Streets After Officer Involved Shooting « CBS St. Louis
I'm noticing the term protest seems to get dropped entirely for riots at this point.
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 11:19 AM
 
Everything I read indicates the police officer rightfully has fear for his life and should have fired back. My problem, however, is the lead-up to it:

The officer, a six-year veteran of the force, was working a second job for a security company, one that was approved by his department. He was wearing his police uniform.
This is totally legal. But should it be? His outfit misrepresents both his employer and his position at the time.

While on patrol, the officer saw three black males run away as he approached. He gave chase because one of them was holding up his pants in a way that made the officer believe the teen may be carrying a gun, Dotson said.
So now how a person holds their pants is 'probable cause' of sorts for a rent-a-cop? And why would you give chase to a person suspected of having a gun? That's escalating the situation.
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
What does a riot have to do with job qualifications?!
It means blacks won't get the jobs because they are black, just like the rioters. I can't believe you couldn't make the connection yourself.
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 01:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So, what do the riots accomplish? MORE hatred for the black community? More distrust. Less blacks offered jobs?
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
It doesn't seem to matter what the facts are anymore. Riots for riots' sake.

Protesters Take To South St. Louis Streets After Officer Involved Shooting « CBS St. Louis
You sound frustrated. And to a certain extent I get that because the reality is that most white Americans are utterly clueless about black Americans and our experiences in this country. And that's not meant as a criticism but a mere observation rooted in fact:

"All my black friends have a bunch of white friends. And all my white friends have one black friend."

That's the memorable punchline of a Chris Rock bit from 2009 on interracial friendships. And according to some recent number-crunching by Robert Jones of the Public Religion Research Institute, there's a good deal of truth to that statement.
As PRRI's Robert Jones writes in the Atlantic, Americans' segregated social circles have influenced responses to the events in Ferguson, Mo., over the past few weeks. Polls show deep divides between blacks and whites on everything from the role of race in Ferguson to the appropriateness of responses by protestors and police.

The numbers above offer insight into why so many whites have expressed bafflement over protesters' responses to the shooting of Michael Brown. The history between many black communities and the police forces that serve them is long, complicated, often violent and characterized by an extreme imbalance of power. But as Robert Jones notes, most whites are not "socially positioned" to understand this history -- simply because they know few people who've experienced it.

To be fair, the numbers suggest there is plenty of racial self-selection in black Americans' friend networks, too. But focusing solely on black-white relations, there's a pretty big difference between having only one member of a given race in your friend network and having eight of them.

In fact, PRRI's data show that a full 75 percent of whites have "entirely white social networks without any minority presence." The same holds true for slightly less than two-thirds of black Americans.
Three quarters of whites don’t have any non-white friends - The Washington Post

So if you are truly concerned then just try to imagine decades of the types of incidents that have been posted in this thread alone that the black community has been dealing with on a daily basis. Most of which were routinely dismissed by White America as some sort of collective figment of African-American imagination or "playing the race card" prior to the ubiquity of smartphone video and social media. Add to that the fact that STL is the 9th most racially segregated metropolitan area in the entire country ... which has fueled economic, political, and educational inequality in the area along racial lines.

Why riots erupted in one of the most segregated metro regions in the country - The Washington Post

Eventually something is going to happen that causes that powder keg to explode. And once it does it is simply unrealistic to think that every action of every single person involved in what is essentially civil unrest is going to be completely "rational". So instead of asking "what do the riots accomplish?" or resigning yourself to "riots for riots' sake" perhaps you should ask ... what could cause nearly an entire community of black Americans to get to the point where they don't trust anything the police have to say unless its captured on video? What could cause the overwhelming majority of black Americans to get to the point where we see ourselves and/or our sons in Mike Brown? From the guys on the street corner with their pants sagging ... to the blue collar workers punching a clock ... to the white collar employees making a salary in Corporate America ... to the doctors, lawyers, dentists, elected officials, and other professionals ... all the way to those sitting on millions? From the high school dropouts all the way to those with post-graduate degrees? Ask yourself why there is a pervasive sense of dread experienced by nearly any black male in this country whenever he sees this in his rear view mirror?



Whether he is in a hoodie or a business suit? Whether he is a hardcore "gangsta" with a rap sheet or squeaky clean "civilian" trying to get home to his family?

As for this latest incident, all I can tell you is that tensions around here between black Americans and these nearly all-white police forces are at an all time high. To say that we trust these officers cops about as far as we can throw them would be charitable at best. There were about 300 protestors who converged in South St. Louis where this latest incident occurred because relatives of the 18 year old who was shot came to the scene and identified his body then disputed police claims that he was armed and fired several shots at the off-duty policeman. They say he had just left a store after purchasing a sandwich and the cop mistook that for a gun. And word of that spread like wildfire on social media.

Jackie Williams, 47, said Myers was his nephew and lived with him in the 4200 block of Castleman Avenue, near the shooting scene. He said he had talked to several people who had been with his nephew or saw the shooting.

“My nephew was coming out of a store from purchasing a sandwich. Security was supposedly searching for someone else. They Tased him,” Williams said. “I don’t know how this happened, but they went off and shot him 16 times. That’s outright murder.”


A police spokeswoman said the officer did not have a Taser.

Williams said Myers worked at a warehouse and attended high school.

Lavell Boyd, 47, lives in the neighborhood and said he happened upon the scene as he was going to a store on Shaw to pick up a sandwich. Boyd said he heard 14 or 15 shots as he was in his car.

“When I pulled up I saw the cop standing over him (Myers) then he pointed the gun at everyone else telling everyone to get back while he was searching for another clip,” Boyd said.


Boyd said he heard others nearby telling the officer “you killed my friend.”

Several neighbors also gathered at the scene. Some said they were surprised by the shooting.

“This is not normal,” said Dorenda Townsend, 42, who lives in the Shaw neighborhood. “I’ve lived here over 20 years.”

Some also expressed concern that the shooting involved police.

“I pray this is not another Mike Brown situation,” said Sharon Norman, 50, referring to a shooting in August in Ferguson in which a police officer fatally shot a teenager, which has prompted many protests.

Ronnie Sparks, 45, who lives in the Shaw neighborhood, said his son, Cameron Ming, 21, was with Myers on Wednesday night. After the shooting, Sparks said Ming was talking with police.

"They have been harassing him all day like they do all the time, pulling him over, stopping him," Sparks said of his son. "That's how it is. They harass the kids in the neighborhood. Our kids walk around in their own neighborhood and get harassed for it."
And that last part about harassment is particularly relevant since the article also says this ...

[STL Police Chief] Dotson, who came to the scene and gave an update to reporters after midnight, said the officer had been in a car when he saw three males near Shaw Boulevard and Klemm Street at about 7:30 p.m. Wednesday. One of the males started to run away but stopped. The officer did a U-turn and then all three ran, in the 4100 block of Shaw Boulevard. The officer drove through streets following them, and then he got out and chased them on foot.
Now bear in mind this police officer was off-duty and moonlighting for a private security company at the time. No crime had been reported. No calls to 911. Nothing! But nevertheless he decided to follow and chase a group of young black males anyway for a "pedestrian check". WTF? And before anyone asks "Well why would they run away if they weren't doing anything wrong? ... please peruse the thread for plenty of examples of why that would the case.

And so the breaking news is that a State Senator is calling for an investigation ...

Identifying themselves as part of the Michael Brown Leadership Coalition, they also suggested that the governor appoint a blue-ribbon commission to look at this case. One of them, State Sen. Jamilah Nasheed, said she believes that Myers was shot in the back of the head.

Members of the group said the focus should be on why the officer singled out Myers in the first place.

"This was a case of racial profiling turned deadly," Nasheed alleged.
Off-duty St. Louis officer fatally shoots teen who fired at him, police say : STLToday.com

So we shall see what the evidence reveals in this situation. Witnesses on the scene are saying Myers was shot 16 times ... some while he was already down. Some are saying he shot in the back of the head. The police say he was out on bond and on house arrest with electronic monitoring for illegal weapons possession. Which they are using to buttress their claim that they recovered a 9mm Ruger at the scene. But a local STL Post Dispatch crime & police reporter says that the manager of the Shaw Market says that video surveillance from his store shows Myer had no gun when he bought a sandwich and disputed the STL PD account:





So now word is rapidly spreading that the gun is a plant. Which the STL PD is certainly not above doing given this recent case where a black guy was handcuffed, placed in the back of a police vehicle, and asked to give up someone on the streets the officers cops could plant a gun with a body on it on ... or be framed himself by them and do 9 years.

STL cop caught on tape threatening to plant a gun on illegally detained man | KMOV.com

Needless to say the situation is rapidly evolving. Personally, I'm not inclined to take a position on this latest incident just yet. Other than to say that I'm definitely not taking the STL PD's account at face value.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Oct 9, 2014 at 01:55 PM. )
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 01:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
It means blacks won't get the jobs because they are black, just like the rioters. I can't believe you couldn't make the connection yourself.
Dude, I didn't make the connection because that's discrimination on the basis of race and completely illegal.
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 01:50 PM
 
Robinson caught the conversation inside the police cruiser on his cell phone.
Lucky ****er.

“If you don’t give me anything in the next 24-hours then I’ll write this case up as you ran from me but you got away. But I know who you are and you had this gun.”
This is why cops get a bad name. Two of them were in on it. Did one object? Did others know? Not questions that can be answered but I suspect this kind of shit isn't isolated. After all, their goal was to do good – to get a bad person off the streets by planting evidence. But their means, aside from being an outrageous perversion of justice, were to put an innocent* kid behind bars for not cooperating. That's galling.

*innocent in that they had no illegal activity on him after going on probation

It's pretty ****ed up.
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 01:55 PM
 
Might as well throw this on the pile:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/09/ny...-nytmetro&_r=1

---

Oh and score one for police officers with body cameras: OPD releases videos after firefighter claims profiling - Crime Scene

A black Oakland firefighter said he was the victim of racial profiling when a white city police officer kept his hand on his gun while temporarily detaining him and his two sons at a fire station, mistakenly believing he might be a burglar.

The Aug. 15 incident traumatized his sons, said fire Engineer Keith Jones, 43, of Oakland, who filed a formal complaint with police internal affairs and the Citizens’ Police Review Board.
The officer, who was not identified by police officials, can be heard on the video apologizing to Jones and his children.

“I’m sorry for the scare,” the officer said.

“No problem,” Jones replied.
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 02:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Dude, I didn't make the connection because that's discrimination on the basis of race and completely illegal.
Here's the fascinating thing about this statement that you responded to ...

Originally Posted by BadKosh
So, what do the riots accomplish? MORE hatred for the black community? More distrust. Less blacks offered jobs?
In it is a tacit admission that "hatred", "distrust", and "job discrimination" is a pre-existing condition so to speak ... but somehow it would be the "rioter's" fault if all of that increases. That's like saying that it would be the fault of domestic violence victims if wife beaters start beating them even more if they ever lash out.

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Oct 9, 2014, 02:16 PM
 
I won't knock on anyone for having emotional reactions to protests that turn violent. My issue is no one seems concerned with understanding the underlying reasons for the anger and dissatisfaction within the community. And if they do, too many seem to put the blame on the victims or just hand-wave the concerns away.

Further, everyday we tea-party nut jobs and secessionists on Facebook, twitter and the rest of the internet, flaunting their 2nd amendment rights and blustering about how they will use their guns to fight government tyranny or injustice, but when african-americans take to the streets to publicly demonstrate their unhappiness with perceived police tyranny and injustice, with the collateral damage usually being property rather than life, they get scolded for being 'violent.' I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather deal with a Ferguson protest than a Bundy stand-off. And, quite frankly, only one of them was in the right.

As a white dude, I can't pretend to understand fully racism – but as a first generation american with a very foreign name and possibly appearance living in rural PA, I have encountered the sort of subtle discrimination you get for not seeming 'american' and can only imagine how much worse it is when you're differences are more stark.
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 03:16 PM
 
Some more comments about this latest incident for everyone's consideration which may give you a better sense of why the STL PD account is getting the around here in many quarters:

[STL Police Chief]Dotson said a physical confrontation escalated into gunfire. This is how Dotson described the confrontation:

At one point the officer got out of his car and followed the suspect through a gangway. "When the officer went through the gangway, he saw the three gentlemen had come back together," Dotson said. "One of the gentleman started to approach the officer in an aggressive manner. The officer was giving verbal commands, telling them to stop, telling them how to surrender, telling them that they were under arrest. The suspect continued to come towards the officer until they got into a physical altercation. The suspect and the officer were hands on with each other. At that time, the suspect's gray hooded sweatshirt comes off and the suspect starts to run up a hill at the address on Shaw."
So follow me here. The Historic Shaw area in South St. Louis is a neighborhood with very old housing stock. Like many areas within the city limits, it consists mainly of two story, all brick structures many over 100 years old. Now the "gangway" is a very narrow passage between homes that lead from the main street out front to the alley in the back. As in a typical grown man could stand in one with his arms outstretched and simultaneously touch the walls of the homes on either side of him. Often unlit. An area one moves through fairly quickly as it's starting to get dark. And bear in mind all this went down around 7:00 PM ... a good 30 minutes after sunset. This is what I'm talking about ...



Oddity #1: The cop supposedly decides to follow 3 "suspects" through a gangway after "He gave chase because one of them was holding up his pants in a way that made the officer believe the teen may be carrying a gun". In a place where no one in their right mind would want to get caught slipping in a 3 on 1 situation. Off-duty. No call for backup. Because like a lot of young kids ONE of them was sagging.

Question? Did this unidentified officer have his weapon drawn at that point? Notice how the official statement doesn't say? But let's continue ...

Oddity #2: Myers who was A) out on bond facing charges, B) on house arrest wearing an electronic monitoring device on his ankle, C) who had just took off running like a bat out of hell moments earlier from 5-0 ... all of a sudden decided to "aggressively" walk up on this UNIFORMED officer who either already had his weapon drawn given the precariousness of the gangway ... or had it easily accessible in his holster? This is the Trayvon Martin BS all over again .... just worse! This kid is going to just walk up on an armed cop and engage in some good old-fashioned fisticuffs ... which can only end well for him if he manages to kick the cop's ass? And why on earth would he bring his fists to a gunfight since he was supposedly strapped himself?

Oh but wait it gets worse!

Oddity #3: Where's the gray hoodie dude???



I mean it should be pretty clear based upon this alone that this story sounds fishy at best. But let's continue ..

The officer clearly saw the suspect had a gun, Dotson said.
Oddity #4: So the officer "CLEARLY" sees a gun after this non-existent gray hoodie came off during the supposed physical confrontation. Right.

The officer said he "wanted to be certain that it was a gun and did not fire at that point," Dotson said.
Oddity #5: But now he "WANTED TO BE CERTAIN". If he "clearly" saw it then what is there to be "certain" about?

"The suspect pointed the gun at the officer and fired at least three rounds at the police officer. We believe this to be true because there are three projectiles that we recovered with trajectories going towards the officer, down the hill, and one piece of ballistic evidence located behind the officer. At that point, the officer returned fire. As the officer moved towards the suspect, the suspect continued to pull the trigger on his gun."

That is when the teen's gun jammed, Dotson said. He said he is unaware of any video that captured Wednesday night's shooting.
Oddity #6: So the officer fired 17 shots per the STL PD. It's unclear how many times Myers was hit. Which begs the question. If the officer was in the heat of a gun battle where he felt it necessary to fire 17 shots ... how would he even know the gun jammed? And if the gun did jam because the officer observed Myers continuing to "pull the trigger" unsuccessfully ... then why continue shooting? Just how many shots did the officer get off before making this observation?

Off-duty St. Louis officer fatally shoots teen who fired at him, police say : News

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( Last edited by OAW; Oct 9, 2014 at 03:58 PM. )
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 03:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I won't knock on anyone for having emotional reactions to protests that turn violent. My issue is no one seems concerned with understanding the underlying reasons for the anger and dissatisfaction within the community. And if they do, too many seem to put the blame on the victims or just hand-wave the concerns away.

Further, everyday we tea-party nut jobs and secessionists on Facebook, twitter and the rest of the internet, flaunting their 2nd amendment rights and blustering about how they will use their guns to fight government tyranny or injustice, but when african-americans take to the streets to publicly demonstrate their unhappiness with perceived police tyranny and injustice, with the collateral damage usually being property rather than life, they get scolded for being 'violent.' I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather deal with a Ferguson protest than a Bundy stand-off. And, quite frankly, only one of them was in the right.

As a white dude, I can't pretend to understand fully racism – but as a first generation american with a very foreign name and possibly appearance living in rural PA, I have encountered the sort of subtle discrimination you get for not seeming 'american' and can only imagine how much worse it is when you're differences are more stark.
A full-hearted for this entire post! But I must add that the deafening silence on the right and within conservative media about this litany of documented cases of "government tyranny" when those affected are minorities speaks volumes.

As this very poignant article noted ....



As we noted before, we can’t help but to contrast law enforcement’s reaction to protesters in Ferguson, Missouri versus law enforcement’s reaction during the Bundy Ranch fiasco.

1) The Bundy Ranch: On one hand, a large group of armed white men marched in a line of battle while at least one civilian rifleman in a sniper’s perch trained his weapon at Bureau of Land Management officials. In reaction, the government didn’t fire a single round or canister of tear gas, and eventually retreated, conceding the disputed ground to the Bundy militias. It’s important to note that the protesters turned out in support of a man who refused to pay his taxes and grazed his cattle without paying the accompanying fees. This man, Cliven Bundy, and his supporters threatened secession and armed revolt against the United States government.

2) Ferguson, Missouri: On the other hand, unarmed African American protesters in Ferguson, enraged and grieving from the death of an (again) unarmed black man named Michael Brown who was shot in the back by a police officer, have been confronted for several days now by police in full military regalia. This time, the rifleman in the sniper’s perch is a police officer — his scope trained on the protesters.
In Ferguson, law enforcement is vastly overreacting in the face of peaceful protesters, while at the Bundy Ranch, law enforcement vastly underreacted in the face of armed secessionists and scofflaws.

What’s wrong with this picture? Better yet, what’s wrong with the following pictures?

LAW ENFORCEMENT IN FERGUSON, MISSOURI:




LAW ENFORCEMENT AT THE BUNDY RANCH:

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Oct 9, 2014, 04:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Dude, I didn't make the connection because that's discrimination on the basis of race and completely illegal.
If you can PROVE IT. Thought police?
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 04:16 PM
 
about 40% of my friends are black. I don't see anyones color, but I do get the cultural differences between someone raised in Trinidad and one raised in DC. People confuse race with culture all the time.
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 04:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
If you can PROVE IT. Thought police?
Wait, so you're endorsing racism because it's difficult to prove? Suspecting racism makes one thought police?
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 04:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
about 40% of my friends are black. I don't see anyones color
It doesn't work that way
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 04:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Is anger supposed to make sense?
Going nuts never helps anything, people can get angry without throwing tantrums.
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Oct 9, 2014, 04:21 PM
 
Breaking news on the #ShawShooting in STL that just hit my iPhone ...

Autopsy shows teen shot between 5-7 times by off-duty St. Louis officer; no shots to the back of head.
I suppose that's good to hear. Now the question is were any of the shots from behind even if they didn't hit him in the head? And please note that these autopsy results came the next day. We are still awaiting the "official" autopsy results in the Mike Brown case.

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Oct 9, 2014, 04:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Going nuts never helps anything, people can get angry without throwing tantrums.
I agree. But people do reach breaking points.
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 04:56 PM
 
Then you go trash city hall, pelt the county commission building with rotten produce, tar & feather the city leaders, etc.. You don't tear up your own neighborhood, that's idiotic and the only reaction they'll get from the politicians is, "at least it isn't my stuff being destroyed".
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Oct 10, 2014, 07:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It doesn't work that way
Maybe not for you.

My folks didn't live in some gated community, but lower middle class, with Latino's next door, Asians across the street and a black Ice Cream man. My first 'friend' in 1st grade was Turkish. When we moved from Alexandria Va to Springfield, Va., I was surrounded with gov't employee families and Military. My dad's musical taste leaned heavily towards black bands and performers (1940's and '50's) and I picked up his tastes in music. In high school I played the records during the lunch periods, and played Isley Brothers, James Brown, Trouble funk etc! One of my buds was Harvey Williams, who was as big a class clown as I was and we hit it off great. I just never saw any of my friends by color, or race. IT DIDN'T MATTER! It still doesn't. I'm more interested by the PERSON, not some stereotypes. These days one of my best buds is also the range officer at the local firing range. We never crossed paths when I was young, but we both knew many of the same people, places and events. We both work at the same agency in DC. our favorite game is 'do you remember'. My personality is such that I'm easy going, funny, yet can be pretty clever. I don't come off as anything but another schmuck working day after day.
     
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Oct 10, 2014, 11:56 AM
 
Serious questions are being raised about the voter registration numbers in Ferguson in the wake of the Mike Brown protests.

Something Fishy Is Going on With Ferguson’s Voter Rolls: Voter Registration Discrepancies - The Root

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Oct 10, 2014, 12:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Maybe not for you.
I'm saying you can't claim to be color-blind while simultaneously assigning a numerical value to how many of your friends are colored. It's as contradictory as someone declaring how humble they are (and then describing how on a scale of 1-100).
     
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Oct 10, 2014, 12:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Then you go trash city hall, pelt the county commission building with rotten produce, tar & feather the city leaders, etc.. You don't tear up your own neighborhood, that's idiotic and the only reaction they'll get from the politicians is, "at least it isn't my stuff being destroyed".
Has this actually happened or are you making up some worthless scenario?
     
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Oct 10, 2014, 12:53 PM
 
FERGUSON, Mo. — With racial tensions flaring anew on the heels of another police shooting of a young African-American man, Republican Sen. Rand Paul came here Friday for a “listening session” with local black leaders.

The Kentucky senator, who has made GOP outreach to minorities a cornerstone of his message for a likely 2016 presidential campaign, met with 20 local black leaders. It was the first time a White House hopeful of either party has visited this town of 21,000, which dominated headlines over the summer after a white local police officer shot and killed Michael Brown, an 18-year-old, unarmed African-American.


Paul met for 45 minutes with a group that included pastors, local businessmen and representatives of the NAACP, the Urban League and the Anti-Defamation League.

The session, which took place in a storefront on the main drag of town amid pouring rain, came after a second night of street protests in next-door St. Louis after a white off-duty cop in uniform and moonlighting as a security guard, killed another 18-year-old African-American. Authorities say that the teen, Vonderrit Deondre Myers, fired three pistol shots at the officer, who fired back 17 times.

Law enforcement agencies are preparing for riots if a grand jury decides in the next few weeks not to indict Officer Darren Wilson for shooting Brown.

The senator has made several forays into the black community, including trips to Chicago, Detroit and Memphis. He spoke in July to the National Urban League’s annual conference in Memphis.

Like at those other stops, Paul focused on legislation he’s introduced to reduce mandatory minimum sentences, change the way the country prosecutes the war on drugs and create economic freedom zones.

Paul was also the first likely 2016 contender to speak out on Ferguson, writing an op-ed decrying the sale of surplus military equipment to local police departments and making clear that he believes racism still very much exists in society.
Rand Paul meets with black leaders in Ferguson - James Hohmann - POLITICO.com

Very promising. And quite telling that he's the only GOP presidential hopeful who has done this much outreach to minorities since Jack Kemp. That being said, given the controversies he's had over the Civil Rights Act and the "Southern Avenger" who was previously a member of his staff ... he's still being viewed warily even if there is support in the black community for some of his proposals.

Can Rand Paul break past controversy over Civil Rights - CNN.com

‘Southern Avenger’ Comes Clean: Former Rand Paul Aide Warns GOP Away From Racist Rhetoric | Mediaite



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Oct 10, 2014, 12:56 PM
 
However good, Rand may be about courting blacks, hell even if genuinely cares for them, his policies will turn continue to turn them off.
     
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Oct 10, 2014, 01:05 PM
 
His main appeal is his opposition to mandatory minimum sentences and the war on drugs. That is a HUGE issue in the black community because so many black males are being swept up into the system over penny-ante crap like "marijuana possession". Thereby being slapped with a criminal record that makes employment extremely difficult ... which then pushes them into the streets and the underground economy. And the vicious cycle then ensues. A lot of times this leads to a loss or suspension of voting rights ... which can lead to widespread voter disenfranchisement in the black community. That affects jury pools, local elections, etc. It's a big deal and his stances on those issues have a lot of merit. But I agree, his other policy positions are troubling so I don't think it will be enough.

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Oct 10, 2014, 01:06 PM
 
Maybe you have a point on MMS, but he'd have to show an ability to get shit done.
     
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Oct 10, 2014, 05:42 PM
 
Anyone hoping that the Ferguson protests (not riots) would subside are most disappointed. It's about 50 degrees and raining in STL today. About as cold and dreary of a fall day as you can get around here. And the people are still out demanding justice!

A rain-soaked crowd of several hundred people are marching in downtown Clayton [the STL County seat] this afternoon, marking the kick off event of this weekend's FergusonOctober rallies and protests.

Clayton police had barricaded Carondelet Avenue between Central and Bemiston avenues in anticipation of the event.

The march began outside St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Bob McCulloch's office. Ferguson activists have demanded that McCulloch step aside in the Michael Brown case.

Clayton police officers stationed at the front and back of the crowd escorted the protesters as the march began. However, minutes into the event, the protesters stopped in the middle of the intersection of Bemiston and Bonhomme avenues, blocking traffic. They chanted, "Hey, hey, ho, ho, these killer cops have got to go!"

Others shouted, "Who are we? Mike Brown!"

After about an hour of marching, the crowd, which had grown several times from the 100 people involved at the start, blocked the intersection of Central and Carondelet avenues in front of the county government center.

The few police in sight did not interfere; several officers stood outside the Buzz Westfall Justice Center just a few yards from the marchers.
Protesters march in Clayton to kickoff FergusonOctober weekend events : STLToday.com

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Oct 11, 2014, 12:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Has this actually happened or are you making up some worthless scenario?
"Worthless"? I'm giving suggestions, because it's stupid to trash/loot your own neighborhood.
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