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Police discrimination, misconduct, Ferguson, MO, the Roman Legion, and now math??? (Page 3)
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OAW
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW
Unfortunately, there are plenty of people who ascribe to such fanciful notions when it comes to other people who don't look like them or live where they live ... when they would NEVER ascribe to such foolishness when it comes to themselves or their own.
Case in point. This foolishness has been making the rounds for the last day or so ...




Today in Ferguson, Mo., news, The Washington Post takes on the assertion that Missouri Highway Patrol Captain Ron Johnson has been photographed flashing gang signs with members of the community.

He has not.

To reiterate: Capt. Johnson is a member of Kappa Alpha Psi, a black fraternity that was formed in 1911 at Indiana University in Bloomington, and the hand sign you see in the pictures below is a Kappa greeting.
The Kappas are part of the Divine Nine or the National Pan-Hellenic Council, the nine historically black fraternities and sororities that include Delta Sigma Theta, Alpha Kappa Alpha, Alpha Phi Alpha, Omega Psi Phi, Phi Beta Sigma, Zeta Phi Beta, Sigma Gamma Rho and Iota Phi Theta, none of which are gangs.

This particular piece of misinformation, asserting Johnson was aligning himself with the Bloods, appears to have originated in a post on CNN’s iReport site — since removed — and then circulated on Twitter by user @DixielandDiva (OAW: Imagine that.) , an account that no longer exists.

The Washington Post’s Aaron Blake reported a new Pew poll revealed considerably more African Americans than whites say the shooting of an unarmed black teenager Michael Brown by a white police officer “raises important issues about race” (80 percent of blacks compared with 37 percent of whites).

Given such differences in the perception of a national news event, there’s some glaring cultural illiteracy when the top law enforcement officer installed by the governor of Missouri is being accused of throwing up gang signs. This actually makes Johnson not unlike Brown himself — the publication of a photo of Brown flashing the peace sign, which was also misinterpreted as a gang sign, is what sparked #IfTheyGunnedMeDown. Part of the conversation surrounding Brown’s killing centered on black Americans being treated as foreigners in their own country or, in sociology-speak, being “othered.” Some would say black folks must constantly prove their humanity or, at the very least, explain black American culture — sometimes a comically Sisyphean task. Case in point: having to state that Missouri highway patrol captain Ron Johnson is not a gang member.
Missouri Highway Patrol Capt. Ron Johnson is not a gang member. He’s just a Kappa. - The Washington Post



OAW
     
OAW
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's the little things that catch you off-guard. It's not that I thought police were required to have them, but I figured they were ubiquitous (I should find out if my town has them).

I mean, I could see an excuse that "they weren't in the budget" (though I can't imagine they're that expensive compared to vehicles that are replace every 10 years or so), but how do you justify prioritizing riot gear over dash cams? I mean, is Ferguson prone riots or something? (The riot gear was purchased by Ferguson, correct? Or am I mistaken?)

I mean, we talk about poor perception of the police, how does that kind of priorities strike you?
The priorities are way off IMO. Is Ferguson prone to rioting? Absolutely not. Is STL prone to rioting? Absolutely not. Bear in mind STL had no riots even when MLK was killed and when the Rodney King verdict was delivered. Is Ferguson prone to homicide? Well suffice it to say that the first homicide in Ferguson in 2014 was when Officer Wilson killed Mike Brown.

OAW
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:04 PM
 
I thought that was the sign for "asshole"?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
OAW
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I thought that was the sign for "asshole"?
That sign is similar. But there would be no space between the thumb and index finger. It would look puckered up like an "asshole".

OAW
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:30 PM
 
I'm going to guess what the FPD proper bought off Uncle Sam (at a steep discount), which amounts to two humvees, a deuce-and-a-quarter, and a generator, wouldn't even cover the salary of the IT person they'd need to hire to implement a dash can system.

Now, the county bought a lot more, but it's not really the county's place to be implementing dash cams for individual departments within its jurisdiction.
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm going to guess what the FPD proper bought off Uncle Sam (at a steep discount), which amounts to two humvees, a deuce-and-a-quarter, and a generator, wouldn't even cover the salary of the IT person they'd need to hire to implement a dash can system.
So they picked up stuff they don't need because "it's on sale!"
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
So they picked up stuff they don't need because "it's on sale!"
Being able to declare unequivocally they couldn't use a pair of all-terrain vehicles, a cargo truck, and a generator, implies you know something I don't.

Almost any police department could use these things. Especially if they don't have them already.
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 02:00 PM
 
I mean, everything the FPD bought has direct emergency first responder application.
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 02:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Almost any police department could use these things. Especially if they don't have them already.
Could. I'm not sure what you're trying to grey up here, but the point is, I don't see these things being necessary for police work even a few times a year.

I mean, a police force could use a corvette as a squad car, but it isn't necessary.
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 02:10 PM
 
As I said above. All three of these things have direct emergency response applications.

Not "beat the shit out of people" emergency. Tornadoes and floods emergency.
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 09:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Ok. Let's say you get into some sort of altercation with a police officer. And let's set aside who started it and why.
I'd say the best reason to set it aside would be -- that it's patently clear. I was jay-walking with a buddy of mine, holding up traffic after strong-arming some cigars from the local liquor store, and instead of simply complying with Buford T. Justice asking me to get the 'F' off the sidewalk and thanking my lucky stars, I decided to argue with the cop, and ultimately socked him in the face giving him an orbital fracture.

Because now the cop just took a shot at you and the reason why is pretty much irrelevant at this stage in the game.
Irrelevant? Are you sure Brown's DNA isn't on Wilson's gun? Oh to be flies on the walls of these rooms, right?

So you take off running. The cop gets out of the car and continues to shoot at you.
Why wouldn't it be near, instinctual for a trained officer of law to first yell "Freeze!" before firing your weapon? Again, you're speculating. In a witch trial, perhaps these first two points you've raised wouldn't matter.

Now please raise your hand if YOU would then stop, turn around, and bum rush the cop who is still shooting at you? Wearing flip flops mind you! I'll wait ....
This is a non-argument IMO. There are so many reasons one cannot put themselves in this position for the sake of an argument. If Wilson hadn't yelled "Freeze!" or I didn't hear it, I'd have heard the first gun shot. And regardless of where it does or does not hit me, I'm on the ground. Period. I hit the decks. However, now I know I'm going down for robbery and assaulting an officer... at least. But I'm alive. To answer your question -- no, I certainly wouldn't bum-rush a cop, but then I wouldn't jack a cop in the face either. Particularly when I should've been thankful for the jay-walking correction over an aggravated-robbery rap... that also wouldn't apply to me. By all means in this case, I may have assumed I'm committed to this thing, put my hands up to get the cop to put his damned gun down, and seize a moment of distraction and/or weakness and bum-rush his ass.

Is that a REASONABLE and RATIONAL response in that situation by any human being with an inkling of a self-perseveration instinct? Of course not! It's even more ludicrous than the narrative in the Trayvon Martin case where the kid was running away in fear one second ... then the next second he supposedly turns around and becomes "Super Thug" and attacks unprovoked. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people who ascribe to such fanciful notions when it comes to other people who don't look like them or live where they live ... when they would NEVER ascribe to such foolishness when it comes to themselves or their own.
Dude. It's so much more than what people look like or where they live -- we're not talking about Ciudad Juárez, Mexico for crying out loud. There are people wondering how they might mount a billy goat without hurting themselves. You should know by now I don't buy off on the identity politics. There are plenty of people ascribing to the notion that there should be no due process, including the governor.

Irrational? Hell to the yeah... all the friggin' way around.

So it is certainly possible that the Ferguson PD account is the truth and the 5 eyewitnesses that have come forth so far ALL got it wrong telling what is essentially the same story. I'm just saying that it's not probable my friend.
First off, one of the 5 is Johnson. Credible? Yes, but then -- no. We need evidence. There are some 12 witnesses who supposedly support the officer's story, including another man who was not the subject of any recording that picked him up. We're not going to convince one another on any witness count.

Why on earth would I be a public witness not corroborating the popularized HANDS UP - DON'T SHOOT narrative? Snitches get stitches, man.

As for witnesses that supposedly claim Brown was charging the officer ... I'm just going to have to ask you to cite a reference where the witness is speaking in their own words. The only thing I've seen is an eyewitness account on social media that picked up a guy in the background saying "he kept coming." Those who buy into the Ferguson PD's narrative are assuming the HE referred to Mike Brown. Which is ludicrous since ALL the eyewitnesses said that Mike Brown put his hands in the air and Officer Wilson kept approaching while shooting. So the HE that guy was talking about was Officer Wilson.

OAW
#1. Oh, the police got his gun
#2 The police kept dumpin on him, and I’m thinking the police kept missing – he like – be like – but he kept coming toward him
{crosstalk}
#2 Police fired shots – the next thing I know – the police was missing
#1 The Police?
#2 The Police shot him
#1 Police?
#2 The next thing I know … I’m thinking … the dude started running … (garbled something about “he took it from him”)
Once again, what you're calling ludicrous begs more investigation and query. Why do you suppose it's noteworthy that "he kept coming toward him" along with the assumption that the officer must have been missing him -- because the gunshots didn't stop him from running. Him = Brown... kept coming. I know there is a very loud call for stringing this cop up yesterday, but IMO -- we need more evidence.
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OAW
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Aug 21, 2014, 02:32 AM
 
^^^

What I will say AGAIN is that the independent autopsy showed no signs of Mike Brown being in a struggle. And let's just say that punching a cop in the face hard enough to cause an orbital fracture will leave a mark. So perhaps the injury came when the officer tried to open the door and exit, but when it bounced off Mike Brown he hit his head on the door frame and that's what enraged him? Or perhaps he had a fellow officer punch him after the fact because he just killed an unarmed kid and he has to justify it somehow? Indeed that's conjecture, but the independent autopsy doesn't support the Ferguson PD narrative. Cause you don't break bones and not have bruising at a minimum. But hey ... let's just ignore all that and take the police narrative at face value. Even though the cop on the hot seat has made no public statements whatsoever.

As for the gun. Most people are right-handed. Such people holster their weapon on their right hip. So if Officer Wilson is right handed his weapon was in the narrow space between his body and the center console. And in STL police vehicles typically have laptops mounted there. Mike Brown would have hade to lean in through a window, reach across the officers body, and try to grab a gun in that narrow space, a gun that would be facing the opposite way for him to grab and fire. So again I ask you to consider PROBABILTY vs POSSIBILITY. There's just not a lot of room to maneuver in that scenario.

12 witnesses who support the officer's story? First of all. ... what story ? Again, he has yet to speak about the situation one way or the other. Are you referring to the Ferguson and STL County Police chiefs' story? The ones that have changed their story dramatically in the last week? The police who for a week wouldn't release any info on the officer. Any info on how many shots were fired? Any info on how many shots struck Mike Brown? The ones who first stated empahtically that Officer Wilson did not know Mike Brown was a suspect in a "robbery" ... probably because he wasn't identified from the security footage until TWO DAYS after he was killed ... but then later claimed the officer must have realized he was a suspect in order to justify Officer Wilson's actions? The same "robbery" that the official Ferguson police report claimed that an employee or the owner of the store called 911 when the owner of the store has said EMPHATICALLY that neither did? Given the security footage we don't know if money exchanged hands or not because the view was blocked. All we know is there was a dispute that turned physical. We also know that Mike Brown and Dorian Johnson WALKED home from a contemporaneous eyewitness account. They didn't run which is typical after a robbery. Even according to the Ferguson PD they were still WALKING when Officer Wilson rolled up on them. But in any event, I showed you my 5 witnesses with their statements. So you show me your 12. Because absent that ... you are just talking.

As for the transcript you posted ... that's the one I was referring to. I urge you to listen to it ALL in context. NOWHERE do you hear the guy's voice you quoted indicate that the officer was justified. You hear HIM and EVERYBODY ELSE talking say the cop killed him for no reason. And that video is over 10 minutes long. So when you put that together with ALL the other eyewitnesses it is clear who the HE being referred to actually is. Because ALL the witnesses said Officer Wilson kept approaching Mike Brown after he had stopped and put his hands in the air and kept "dumping" aka shooting him. STL is my hometown. So I don't think I would be speaking out of turn when I say that in all likelihood I am considerably more familiar with the vernacular around here than you are. There is a fluidity to language in the African-American community that only the proper context will enable you to determine the meaning with respect to pronouns and what not. So take it or leave it. But I'm telling you ... I've been following this story since day one. And I've yet to come across a single black person around here who has interpreted what this other local black person said the way that some white people are inclined to do. Not in person. Not on social media. NOWHERE! And that my friend ought to be quite telling. So you can dismiss that as "identity politics" if you want to. But absent an eyewitness coming forward and EXPLICITLY stating that Mike Brown bum rushed Officer Wilson ... I simply call it "truth".

OAW
     
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Aug 21, 2014, 03:40 AM
 
Small point.

Many people prefer to cross-draw from the hip opposite the dominant hand. It's a more natural motion.
     
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Aug 21, 2014, 04:26 AM
 
Yesterday, I've heard a great podcast on the topic, episode 279 of Dan Carlin's common sense discusses the situation and compares it to the LA riots. Well worth a listen.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
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Aug 21, 2014, 07:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
^^^

What I will say AGAIN is that the independent autopsy showed no signs of Mike Brown being in a struggle. And let's just say that punching a cop in the face hard enough to cause an orbital fracture will leave a mark.
I don't know that to be true and you don't either. Again, we're talking about a kid with meathooks right? I don't know that it would have left a mark on his fist.

So perhaps the injury came when the officer tried to open the door and exit, but when it bounced off Mike Brown he hit his head on the door frame and that's what enraged him? Or perhaps he had a fellow officer punch him after the fact because he just killed an unarmed kid and he has to justify it somehow? Indeed that's conjecture, but the independent autopsy doesn't support the Ferguson PD narrative. Cause you don't break bones and not have bruising at a minimum. But hey ... let's just ignore all that and take the police narrative at face value. Even though the cop on the hot seat has made no public statements whatsoever.
What I'm telling you is that the autopsies do not necessarily support either side's story. I don't buy off on the self-imposed injury for cover-up line. I just don't. Unless someone credible attests to this, it's just not going to go anywhere. More on what Wilson has and has not said in a minute.

As for the gun. Most people are right-handed. Such people holster their weapon on their right hip. So if Officer Wilson is right handed his weapon was in the narrow space between his body and the center console. And in STL police vehicles typically have laptops mounted there. Mike Brown would have hade to lean in through a window, reach across the officers body, and try to grab a gun in that narrow space, a gun that would be facing the opposite way for him to grab and fire. So again I ask you to consider PROBABILTY vs POSSIBILITY. There's just not a lot of room to maneuver in that scenario.
Perhaps it was in close-quarters and explains why the weapon may have inadvertently gone off. We have no public statement to this possibility either. Someone who supposes the cop had another cop hit him in the face for a cover-up is decidedly favoring POSSIBILITY over PROBABILITY so I'll take your accusation here with a grain of salt, of course.

12 witnesses who support the officer's story? First of all. ... what story ? Again, he has yet to speak about the situation one way or the other. Are you referring to the Ferguson and STL County Police chiefs' story? The ones that have changed their story dramatically in the last week? The police who for a week wouldn't release any info on the officer. Any info on how many shots were fired? Any info on how many shots struck Mike Brown? The ones who first stated empahtically that Officer Wilson did not know Mike Brown was a suspect in a "robbery" ... probably because he wasn't identified from the security footage until TWO DAYS after he was killed ... but then later claimed the officer must have realized he was a suspect in order to justify Officer Wilson's actions? The same "robbery" that the official Ferguson police report claimed that an employee or the owner of the store called 911 when the owner of the store has said EMPHATICALLY that neither did? Given the security footage we don't know if money exchanged hands or not because the view was blocked. All we know is there was a dispute that turned physical. We also know that Mike Brown and Dorian Johnson WALKED home from a contemporaneous eyewitness account. They didn't run which is typical after a robbery. Even according to the Ferguson PD they were still WALKING when Officer Wilson rolled up on them. But in any event, I showed you my 5 witnesses with their statements. So you show me your 12. Because absent that ... you are just talking.
First, their story hasn't changed "dramatically". It would be difficult to know when a dispatch would've reported the local crime and/or when Wilson would or would not have known. We'll find out and I would hope some evidence would be forthcoming to corroborate the timing. Some time had passed from the first confrontation between Wilson and Brown and when Wilson supposedly went passed them.

Secondly, we know that Wilson has given a statement to investigators. That much we know for certain. Again, I know a great many would like for Wilson to pop his head up for an entertaining game of whack-a-mole, but he's under wraps for a very damned good reason. Wilson however, does have friends; one of which gave his account of the scenario to her and that account was corroborated by an investigator as reported by CNN in the following article;

Support grows for Darren Wilson, officer who shot Ferguson teen Michael Brown
In a first account of its kind, a caller to Radio America's "The Dana Show," who identified herself only as Josie, told listeners a detailed account of Officer Darren Wilson's side. A source with detailed knowledge of the investigation told CNN it accurately matched what the officer has told investigators.

As for the transcript you posted ... that's the one I was referring to. I urge you to listen to it ALL in context. NOWHERE do you hear the guy's voice you quoted indicate that the officer was justified. You hear HIM and EVERYBODY ELSE talking say the cop killed him for no reason. And that video is over 10 minutes long. So when you put that together with ALL the other eyewitnesses it is clear who the HE being referred to actually is. Because ALL the witnesses said Officer Wilson kept approaching Mike Brown after he had stopped and put his hands in the air and kept "dumping" aka shooting him. STL is my hometown. So I don't think I would be speaking out of turn when I say that in all likelihood I am considerably more familiar with the vernacular around here than you are. There is a fluidity to language in the African-American community that only the proper context will enable you to determine the meaning with respect to pronouns and what not. So take it or leave it. But I'm telling you ... I've been following this story since day one. And I've yet to come across a single black person around here who has interpreted what this other local black person said the way that some white people are inclined to do. Not in person. Not on social media. NOWHERE! And that my friend ought to be quite telling. So you can dismiss that as "identity politics" if you want to. But absent an eyewitness coming forward and EXPLICITLY stating that Mike Brown bum rushed Officer Wilson ... I simply call it "truth".

OAW
Why are you moving the goalposts? It seems entirely PROBABLE that a great many expressing their opinions on this matter can find NO justification for killing an unarmed black person. In regards to the remainder of the above, I'm often confounded by the relative lack of ideological diversity among the vocal and/or voting black community as they find themselves in lock-step by far greater percentages than ANY OTHER VOTING BLOC. You can try the black splainin' as if I just don't understand how they speak, but that's patronizing to both of us.

Let me ask you a question and then offer my response --
  • If it turns out through Holder's investigation, the multiple autopsies, Grand Jury, and as-yet reported evidence such as any possible Brown DNA on the gun, a gunshot in the cop's vehicle, a mark on Brown's hand, more eyewitness testimony, any possible recants of Brown's friend Johnson, or other unknown evidences come to light showing Wilson's account of the story is true by all available evidence -- will you accept it?
  • If it turns out that Johnson's account of an innocent, hands-in-the-air Brown was shot from behind, surrendered, and was gunned down in cold blood turns out to be found and proven true with all the available evidence -- I will accept that and call for lifelong imprisonment for Officer Wilson.

Deal?
ebuddy
     
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Aug 21, 2014, 10:01 AM
 
Aside from two idiots showing up to troll the crowd by supporting the police officer (LOLWHITEPEOPLE), things seem to have calmed down, i.e., no tear gas last night.

On the downside, there are reports police raided a church suspected of letting people sleep there (OHTHEHUMANITY), and didn't take the councilman/pastor at his word that he was doing no such thing.
     
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Aug 21, 2014, 10:03 AM
 
Oh and the other night this douchenozzle got caught on video threatening civilians. He's a cop.

Fortunately he's been removed from duty.
     
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Aug 21, 2014, 10:56 AM
 
More cop/media fun

Here is a transcript of our most interesting exchanges:

Officer 1: You’ve got your choice — that way or my way.

Lee: We’re in the city of Ferguson, officer.

Officer 1: No, you are not.

Officer 2: You’re still in us [sic].

Officer 1: You’re still in Kinloch. Don’t feed me no bull----. [Pointing to me] Take it that way.

Umar Lee: What’s the problem, officer?

Officer 1: What’s the problem? What do you think the problem is?

Lee: I don’t know. What’s the problem?

Officer 1: Take them out of here. This is not an area where you’re supposed to be right now.

Lee: Why not? Who cannot be in Kinloch?

Officer 1: I tell you what. Take them out of here.

Lee: What did we do wrong?

Officer 1: I’m not saying you did anything wrong, I’m saying that I don’t want you here at this time of night.

After Lee asked the officer for his name, which he refused to divulge, the officer threatened to tow the cab for illegal parking. And then he turned to us.

Jung Park: I need to shoot the sign.

Officer 1: [to JP] You don’t need to shoot nothing. Take a hike.

JP: No, I need to shoot the sign for our story.

Officer 1: [To me] You need to take a hike.

Me: We need to shoot the sign first.

Officer 1: No, you don’t.

Me: Yeah, we do.

Officer 1: No, you don’t. You come back when it’s daylight.

Me: Sir, could you —

Officer 1: Did you hear what I said? … You want to go, we’ll go.

At this point, the officer approached me and grabbed my wrist.

Officer 1: [Holding my arm] Don’t resist. I’ll bust your ass. I’ll bust your head right here.

Me: [To JP] Are you filming this?

Officer 1: Film it! I don’t give a s---. Because you’ll go, and I’ll sure confiscate your film for evidence.

JP: No, what I’m saying is —

Officer 1: I’m asking you to leave!

Officer 2: Go now or you get locked up!

Officer 1: That’s it.

The officer eventually dropped my arm, and we got in the cab and left. I was mostly bemused by the encounter. Why would an officer so blatantly threaten a journalist for doing his job while cameras were rolling?
     
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Aug 21, 2014, 11:58 AM
 
UNION COPS generally have low IQ's and get emotional very easily.
Time to HIDE CAMERAS and let 'whoever' get caught being real, not staged.
this could catch a few outside agitators or cops, or other crimes.
     
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Aug 21, 2014, 04:28 PM
 
Caught this blog; If true, puts an interesting perspective on relations between Ferguson citizens and their police force.

Ferguson and the Modern Debtor’s Prison

A new report from Arch City Defenders, a non-profit legal defense organization, shows that the Ferguson municipal courts are a stunning example of these problems:
Ferguson is a city located in northern St. Louis County with 21,203 residents living in 8,192 households. The majority (67%) of residents are African-American…22% of residents live below the poverty level.

…Despite Ferguson’s relative poverty, fines and court fees comprise the second largest source of revenue for the city, a total of $2,635,400. In 2013, the Ferguson Municipal Court disposed of 24,532 warrants and 12,018 cases, or about 3 warrants and 1.5 cases per household.
You don’t get $321 in fines and fees and 3 warrants per household from an about-average crime rate. You get numbers like this from bullshit arrests for jaywalking and constant “low level harassment involving traffic stops, court appearances, high fines, and the threat of jail for failure to pay.”
Sounds like the police force might have been an antagonizer, and given their track record during the protests, it's believable. Intimidating citizens and reporters, refusing to identify themselves or charges against people. These people act like they're completely unaccountable (and up til now they likely have).
     
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Aug 21, 2014, 04:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
On a historical note, Kinloch is a neighboring municipality to Ferguson. It is also the oldest black city west of the Mississippi. At one point it was a thriving community. And for reasons that will be way OT it went to hell in a hand basket over the decades. And like most of the municipalities in the northern part of STL County you have a majority black (in the case of Kinloch an entirely black) population and a near lily-white police force. These reporters were by the main entrance to enter that area trying to film the city sign. They were actually fine there because they were by a major street and a stones throw away from Lambert International Airport. But going up into the heart of Kinloch at night? I would strongly advise against it unless you were going to see people you knew that lived there. And even then you better watch your back. Neighboring Ferguson is a MUCH safer part of town.

OAW
     
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Aug 21, 2014, 04:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Caught this blog; If true, puts an interesting perspective on relations between Ferguson citizens and their police force.

Ferguson and the Modern Debtor’s Prison



Sounds like the police force might have been an antagonizer, and given their track record during the protests, it's believable. Intimidating citizens and reporters, refusing to identify themselves or charges against people. These people act like they're completely unaccountable (and up til now they likely have).
This is PRECISELY what is going on. You have nearly all-white police departments and city councils treating majority black residents like an ATM machine for BS fines and tickets. Getting pulled over for DWB is rampant in Missouri and especially in these areas.

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Aug 21, 2014, 04:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
On a historical note, Kinloch is a neighboring municipality to Ferguson. It is also the oldest black city west of the Mississippi. At one point it was a thriving community. And for reasons that will be way OT it went to hell in a hand basket over the decades. And like most of the municipalities in the northern part of STL County you have a majority black (in the case of Kinloch an entirely black) population and a near lily-white police force. These reporters were by the main entrance to enter that area trying to film the city sign. They were actually fine there because they were by a major street and a stones throw away from Lambert International Airport. But going up into the heart of Kinloch at night? I would strongly advise against it unless you were going to see people you knew that lived there. And even then you better watch your back. Neighboring Ferguson is a MUCH safer part of town.

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So the police were trying to protect them?
     
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Aug 21, 2014, 05:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Oh and the other night this douchenozzle got caught on video threatening civilians. He's a cop.

Fortunately he's been removed from duty.
I'm bothered very few outlets are reporting the cop thought he saw a BB gun.

Does that mitigate his behavior? No. Is it relevant to a news story about the event? Emphatic yes.
     
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Aug 21, 2014, 07:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
First, their story hasn't changed "dramatically". It would be difficult to know when a dispatch would've reported the local crime and/or when Wilson would or would not have known. We'll find out and I would hope some evidence would be forthcoming to corroborate the timing. Some time had passed from the first confrontation between Wilson and Brown and when Wilson supposedly went passed them.
It's not difficult. Just see the police report.

Mike Brown left Ferguson Market on W. Florissant Ave. and headed north at approximately 11:53 AM. He was dead around noon. By the time a second officer arrived at the scene around the corner on Canfield Dr. at 12:04 PM the crowd was already gathering and upset about what went down. Please keep in mind that Canfield Dr. is barely a block away! So what kind of time do you think passed? Dorian Johnson AND the police said that Officer Wilson rolled up on the two of them as they were headed east on Canfield Dr. into the apartment complex. Wilson was driving west towards W. Florissant Ave out of the apartment complex. Neither takes off running or walks the other way as Officer Wilson heads directly toward them. So either they were being cool as cucumbers or perhaps in light of the fact that the owner of the Ferguson Market nor his employee never called 911 despite the police report claiming one of them did ... perhaps there was no "strong-arm robbery" at all and they felt no reason to avoid the "po po"? In any event, Johnson says Wilson rolled down the driver side window and said "Get the f*ck on the sidewalk!". And knowing firsthand the blatant disrespect a lot of the cops around here routinely show towards the residents of the communities they work but don't live in ... let's just say I have no reason whatsoever to doubt that. I'm sure Wilson will swear on a stack of bibles that he said it in a much more professional manner. Regardless, Brown or Johnson says they are just a minute from home (which they were) and keep walking past Officer Wilson's vehicle. It's at that point that Officer Wilson throws his vehicle into reverse, backs up, and swings it around so its facing north and south .... blocking both lanes of Canfield Dr. and cutting off Johnson and Wilson. There were only a few SECONDS between the initial contact and this action. Any longer and they would have made it to one of the apartment complex parking lots or perhaps even home.

As for their story changing "dramatically" ... well we are going to just have to agree to disagree. There was NO MENTION of a "robbery" during the Sun. Aug. 10. press conference by the STL County Police Chief the day after this happened. The story then was that Brown attacked Wilson in his vehicle just because it was a Saturday afternoon or something. In flip flops. It wasn't until TWO DAYS LATER on Aug. 11 when an investigator went by the Ferguson Market to review the security camera footage that Brown & Johnson were even IDENTIFIED as being involved. On the morning of Aug. 15, nearly a WEEK after Brown was killed the Ferguson PD finally releases the name of Officer Wilson ... but no further information about him which was what the media was expecting. And then hands them media a packet with information on the robbery. He doesn't even mention Brown or Johnson at the press conference. Nor did he give Capt. Johnson of the Highway Patrol a heads up that he was going to do that. Which was a real dick move since Capt. Johnson was responsible for keeping the peace at the protests. Which he had done successfully the night before and which all went downhill that night after the release of the tape. The press conference ends ... the media reviews the info along with the stills from the security camera ... and the release of the officers name becomes a footnote as the media runs with the new story. Several hours go by and the media frenzy dissipates ... and now the press is thinking that the Ferguson Police Chief just pulled the "old banana in the tailpipe" trick on them. Because clearly he tried to intimate that there was a connection between the "robbery" and the shooting. Or at a minimum to try to give some ammo to the "Well Brown deserved it!" crowd among the jury pool. So at the afternoon press conference he's asked POINT BLANK on several occasions if there was a connection. And he states SEVERAL TIMES AGAIN that there was NO CONNECTION because Wilson did not know Brown was a suspect. He said explicitly that he stopped them for walking in the street. The media continues to press him about why he released the tape anyway when there was no connection to the Brown's killing and Wilson's background ... especially given its likelihood to inflame the public that had been clamoring for more info about the shooting itself and Officer Wilson ... and after a lot of hemming, hawing, and stammering he blames that on Freedom of Information Requests (FOIA) from the media.

So now we have this "friend of a friend of Wilson" supposedly named "Josie" that you mentioned calling into a radio show with this claim that Mike Brown just "bum rushed" the cop outside the car. The article you quoted said "A source with detailed knowledge of the investigation told CNN it accurately matched what the officer has told investigators." Yet in 3 SEPARATE PRESS CONFERENCES over the course of a WEEK neither the STL County nor the Ferguson police chief makes any mention of this whatsoever. They only talked about the Brown supposed attacking Wilson inside the car. Now we are getting this story that Wilson initially didn't know Brown was a suspect in the "robbery" ... but when they walked past his car he saw the cigar box in Brown's hands and he made the connection. And that is why he put the car in reverse, blocked their path, and tried to get out of the car. But again ... this is something Wilson would have mentioned when he first spoke with the investigators. Yet here we have the Ferguson Police Chief stating emphatically that there was NO CONNECTION with the robbery?

How can you NOT see that as the story changing dramatically?

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Why are you moving the goalposts? It seems entirely PROBABLE that a great many expressing their opinions on this matter can find NO justification for killing an unarmed black person.
Unarmed. Fleeing. Shooting at him from behind. And then when he stops, turns around with his hands up continuing to shoot him until he's dead? You're damned skippy! It's going to take some hard evidence to counter the account of all the eyewitnesses and the forensic evidence. A cop's word is not going to be sufficient ... especially when he's the only one with an incentive to lie at this point.

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
In regards to the remainder of the above, I'm often confounded by the relative lack of ideological diversity among the vocal and/or voting black community as they find themselves in lock-step by far greater percentages than ANY OTHER VOTING BLOC. You can try the black splainin' as if I just don't understand how they speak, but that's patronizing to both of us.
WTF does this have to do with "ideological diversity"? This ain't about politics man. It's about justice for an unarmed kid who was gunned down in the street with his hands in the air.



Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Let me ask you a question and then offer my response --

If it turns out through Holder's investigation, the multiple autopsies, Grand Jury, and as-yet reported evidence such as any possible Brown DNA on the gun, a gunshot in the cop's vehicle, a mark on Brown's hand, more eyewitness testimony, any possible recants of Brown's friend Johnson, or other unknown evidences come to light showing Wilson's account of the story is true by all available evidence -- will you accept it?
Brown's DNA on the officer's gun? After his body was taken away in an undercover Ferguson PD SUV instead of the ambulance as is proper procedure? Uhhh ... not so much.



In any event, it does not matter. Let's say that happened and Wilson can justify the shot in the car. He still has to justify all the other shots outside the car when Brown was fleeing and when he had his hands up.

Mark on Brown's hand? Again, the independent autopsy already indicated that his body showed no signs of struggle.

As I said earlier, it will take some hard evidence to counter what's already out there my friend. So if it presents itself then it is what it is. For example, I'm not one of these people still swearing that it wasn't Mike Brown in that security footage from the store. What I will NOT do is simply take Officer Friendly at his word over all the other eyewitness accounts and the forensics evidence. And what I damned sure won't do is be one of these people who keep saying "We don't really know what happened!". That sh*t really aggravates the hell out of me! Because it essentially marginalizes the accounts of the people who witnessed the incident in real-time. It's a subtle yet still very patronizing way of basically saying that the 5 eyewitnesses who have come forward thus far don't really know what they saw ... and their account is of no value until some police official vouches for it. And that's some BS especially since we all know that police departments will go to great lengths to protect their own. The "Thin Blue Line" and the "Blue Wall of Silence" are rooted in the American lexicon for a reason my friend. Saying "We don't have the officer's side of the story." is one thing. Saying "We don't really know what happened." is something else entirely.

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
If it turns out that Johnson's account of an innocent, hands-in-the-air Brown was shot from behind, surrendered, and was gunned down in cold blood turns out to be found and proven true with all the available evidence -- I will accept that and call for lifelong imprisonment for Officer Wilson. Deal?
Cool. But I must ask you ... why are you so focused on "Johnson's account"? Again, it's NOT just Johnson who is saying that. Would you bet your next paycheck that this was just some sort of figment of their collective imagination?

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Aug 21, 2014 at 07:16 PM. )
     
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Aug 21, 2014, 07:27 PM
 
Apparently CNN is now reporting that the reports of Ofc. Wilson having a fractured eyesocket are false. Imagine that.

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Aug 22, 2014, 12:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
So they picked up stuff they don't need because "it's on sale!"
I do that all the time.



Which reminds me that I need to pay this months hanger fees for my Mig29.
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Aug 22, 2014, 07:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
It's not difficult. Just see the police report.

Mike Brown left Ferguson Market on W. Florissant Ave. and headed north at approximately 11:53 AM. He was dead around noon. By the time a second officer arrived at the scene around the corner on Canfield Dr. at 12:04 PM the crowd was already gathering and upset about what went down. Please keep in mind that Canfield Dr. is barely a block away! So what kind of time do you think passed? Dorian Johnson AND the police said that Officer Wilson rolled up on the two of them as they were headed east on Canfield Dr. into the apartment complex. Wilson was driving west towards W. Florissant Ave out of the apartment complex. Neither takes off running or walks the other way as Officer Wilson heads directly toward them. So either they were being cool as cucumbers or perhaps in light of the fact that the owner of the Ferguson Market nor his employee never called 911 despite the police report claiming one of them did ... perhaps there was no "strong-arm robbery" at all and they felt no reason to avoid the "po po"? In any event, Johnson says Wilson rolled down the driver side window and said "Get the f*ck on the sidewalk!". And knowing firsthand the blatant disrespect a lot of the cops around here routinely show towards the residents of the communities they work but don't live in ... let's just say I have no reason whatsoever to doubt that. I'm sure Wilson will swear on a stack of bibles that he said it in a much more professional manner. Regardless, Brown or Johnson says they are just a minute from home (which they were) and keep walking past Officer Wilson's vehicle. It's at that point that Officer Wilson throws his vehicle into reverse, backs up, and swings it around so its facing north and south .... blocking both lanes of Canfield Dr. and cutting off Johnson and Wilson. There were only a few SECONDS between the initial contact and this action. Any longer and they would have made it to one of the apartment complex parking lots or perhaps even home.
First, perhaps the Ferguson police department assumed one of the store owners or employees called 911 because in fact they were called, according to the Ferguson store owner who claims he wants to stay as far away from this as possible -- the police were called by a customer. Brown and Johnson wouldn't have known whether or not the police were called, but they certainly know what they had done and the likelihood that it'd be reported. They were jay-walking and knowing firsthand the blatant disrespect a lot of thugs show towards the residents of communities they rob from but don't live in, let's just say I have no reason whatsoever to doubt the mantra; "you have to give respect to get it." I'm sure Johnson wouldn't have a problem lying to shift blame elsewhere -- after all he seems to have a well-documented honesty problem with a warrant out for his arrest for theft in Jefferson County, Missouri from 2011, also accused of lying about his identity and age and charged with larceny and an added count of false identification. He failed to appear in court in 2013. It seemed trouble was following this kid everywhere he went.

As for their story changing "dramatically" ... well we are going to just have to agree to disagree. There was NO MENTION of a "robbery" during the Sun. Aug. 10. press conference by the STL County Police Chief the day after this happened. The story then was that Brown attacked Wilson in his vehicle just because it was a Saturday afternoon or something. In flip flops. It wasn't until TWO DAYS LATER on Aug. 11 when an investigator went by the Ferguson Market to review the security camera footage that Brown & Johnson were even IDENTIFIED as being involved. On the morning of Aug. 15, nearly a WEEK after Brown was killed the Ferguson PD finally releases the name of Officer Wilson ... but no further information about him which was what the media was expecting. And then hands them media a packet with information on the robbery. He doesn't even mention Brown or Johnson at the press conference. Nor did he give Capt. Johnson of the Highway Patrol a heads up that he was going to do that. Which was a real dick move since Capt. Johnson was responsible for keeping the peace at the protests. Which he had done successfully the night before and which all went downhill that night after the release of the tape. The press conference ends ... the media reviews the info along with the stills from the security camera ... and the release of the officers name becomes a footnote as the media runs with the new story. Several hours go by and the media frenzy dissipates ... and now the press is thinking that the Ferguson Police Chief just pulled the "old banana in the tailpipe" trick on them. Because clearly he tried to intimate that there was a connection between the "robbery" and the shooting. Or at a minimum to try to give some ammo to the "Well Brown deserved it!" crowd among the jury pool. So at the afternoon press conference he's asked POINT BLANK on several occasions if there was a connection. And he states SEVERAL TIMES AGAIN that there was NO CONNECTION because Wilson did not know Brown was a suspect. He said explicitly that he stopped them for walking in the street. The media continues to press him about why he released the tape anyway when there was no connection to the Brown's killing and Wilson's background ... especially given its likelihood to inflame the public that had been clamoring for more info about the shooting itself and Officer Wilson ... and after a lot of hemming, hawing, and stammering he blames that on Freedom of Information Requests (FOIA) from the media.
Why did it take so long for the video footage of Brown's robbery to be released?

BECAUSE THE FEDERAL DEPT OF JUSTICE URGED THEM NOT TO!

So now we have this "friend of a friend of Wilson" supposedly named "Josie" that you mentioned calling into a radio show with this claim that Mike Brown just "bum rushed" the cop outside the car. The article you quoted said "A source with detailed knowledge of the investigation told CNN it accurately matched what the officer has told investigators." Yet in 3 SEPARATE PRESS CONFERENCES over the course of a WEEK neither the STL County nor the Ferguson police chief makes any mention of this whatsoever. They only talked about the Brown supposed attacking Wilson inside the car. Now we are getting this story that Wilson initially didn't know Brown was a suspect in the "robbery" ... but when they walked past his car he saw the cigar box in Brown's hands and he made the connection. And that is why he put the car in reverse, blocked their path, and tried to get out of the car. But again ... this is something Wilson would have mentioned when he first spoke with the investigators. Yet here we have the Ferguson Police Chief stating emphatically that there was NO CONNECTION with the robbery?

How can you NOT see that as the story changing dramatically?
Because both can be true. The initial stopping of them was for jay-walking. And of course it's SOOO easy to believe that a cop, sitting inside a closed vehicle would attempt to subdue a 6'4", 300lb man from through the window of his vehicle... for jaywalking. :roll eyes: But not only do I not believe that nonsense, I believe it's possible that Wilson didn't know of the robbery connection until whenever it was the report came in and the stolen goods were identified. It just doesn't take that long to make such connections.

Unarmed.
True.
Fleeing.
To get away after beating the crap out of a cop -- very believable yes.
Shooting at him from behind.
This we do not know and perhaps 3 more autopsies should be performed in an attempt to establish this gem.
And then when he stops, turns around with his hands up continuing to shoot him until he's dead?
This we also don't know and we've got stories running the gamut. We're not going to hear the witnesses going public on Brown's guilt because everyone knows SNITCHES GET STITCHES®. Suffice it to say, perhaps there are additional eye-witness accounts neither one of us know about. I'm willing to accept the totality of evidence once the system has run its course. This is the same system that would let an OJ Simpson go free right?

You're damned skippy! It's going to take some hard evidence to counter the account of all the eyewitnesses and the forensic evidence. A cop's word is not going to be sufficient ... especially when he's the only one with an incentive to lie at this point.
Right and with so much we don't know, we should probably just let the system run its course.

WTF does this have to do with "ideological diversity"? This ain't about politics man. It's about justice for an unarmed kid who was gunned down in the street with his hands in the air.
This ain't about justice, OAW any more than the rioting and looting were about justice. This is another opportunity to pedal the narrative of a evil white cop targeting huge black men.

Brown's DNA on the officer's gun? After his body was taken away in an undercover Ferguson PD SUV instead of the ambulance as is proper procedure? Uhhh ... not so much.
In any event, it does not matter. Let's say that happened and Wilson can justify the shot in the car. He still has to justify all the other shots outside the car when Brown was fleeing and when he had his hands up.
We don't know that Brown was shot while fleeing or with his hands up. We don't know this.

Mark on Brown's hand? Again, the independent autopsy already indicated that his body showed no signs of struggle.
I've straight punched a chunk of plyboard with nary a scratch. You a forensic pathologist now? I'm not. I'm willing to wait for the totality of evidence once the system has properly and soberly run its course on the matter. As it stands, you've got "I'm on the side of the people of Ferguson" Holder on the scene and a Governor calling for vigorous prosecution, I'm not so sure why you feel YOUR brand of justice isn't going to come to fruition here. Anywhere else and you've have to throw the whole friggin' thing out. This whole thing is a travesty of justice.

As I said earlier, it will take some hard evidence to counter what's already out there my friend. So if it presents itself then it is what it is. For example, I'm not one of these people still swearing that it wasn't Mike Brown in that security footage from the store. What I will NOT do is simply take Officer Friendly at his word over all the other eyewitness accounts and the forensics evidence. And what I damned sure won't do is be one of these people who keep saying "We don't really know what happened!". That sh*t really aggravates the hell out of me! Because it essentially marginalizes the accounts of the people who witnessed the incident in real-time. It's a subtle yet still very patronizing way of basically saying that the 5 eyewitnesses who have come forward thus far don't really know what they saw ... and their account is of no value until some police official vouches for it. And that's some BS especially since we all know that police departments will go to great lengths to protect their own. The "Thin Blue Line" and the "Blue Wall of Silence" are rooted in the American lexicon for a reason my friend. Saying "We don't have the officer's side of the story." is one thing. Saying "We don't really know what happened." is something else entirely.
There are conflicting accounts. That's the painful truth of it. There are conflicting accounts. They may not fit your narrative or political sensitivities, but it is what it is. We have conflicting, real-time accounts of what happened. You'll get no argument from me that the Union environment is wrought with tribalism and that includes those among its black ranks, but we also know there's a popular narrative that few entrenched in the resultant ideology will accept about an officer. This is not justice, it's guilt until proven innocent by your own words. i.e. you're no better than a beat-walking pig in this regard.

Cool. But I must ask you ... why are you so focused on "Johnson's account"? Again, it's NOT just Johnson who is saying that. Would you bet your next paycheck that this was just some sort of figment of their collective imagination?

OAW
Got it. So no matter what comes to light here in the next month or two, Wilson is guilty of cold-blooded murder. Just as I suspected. You've got Brown and his accomplice Slim McShady and of course, we should buy off on what Johnson has to say because it partially matches some of what other eyewitnesses are saying about an officer with nary a complaint on record, and with no regard for any other witnesses including the potential witnesses who have not yet been made public FOR THEIR APPARENT NEED FOR SAFETY, you've already tried and convicted Wilson. That's all I needed to know, thanks, bruh.
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Aug 22, 2014, 08:21 AM
 
Yep, one thing's an absolute fact, OAW has already tried, convicted, and sentenced the cop, there's no need for a trial, much less a hearing. That's real Justice™.
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Aug 22, 2014, 09:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm bothered very few outlets are reporting the cop thought he saw a BB gun.

Does that mitigate his behavior? No. Is it relevant to a news story about the event? Emphatic yes.
he points the gun directly at multiple people and says, "I will ****ing kill you. Get back!"

The person recording the video then asks the officer for his name. "Go **** yourself," he replies.
I don't think a BB gun justifies any of that.
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 09:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I don't think a BB gun justifies any of that.
What did you think the meaning of my rhetorical question (and answer) "does that mitigate his behavior"?

Do you have any comment on whether the press has an obligation to put in that detail? That was the point of the post.
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 09:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Could. I'm not sure what you're trying to grey up here, but the point is, I don't see these things being necessary for police work even a few times a year.

I mean, a police force could use a corvette as a squad car, but it isn't necessary.
So, you accused me of "greying things up" by claiming a pair of ATVs, a cargo truck, and a generator may have use in a place where tornados and floods are relatively common occurrences.

Do you have a response? Or a desire as to how I interpret a lack of response?
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 09:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Do you have any comment on whether the press has an obligation to put in that detail? That was the point of the post.
More info is probably better, but in the end its beyond the point. I don't think there's any situation you can came up with in which the police officer is justified for either of those actions/statements.

It's like trying to give spousal abuse context by saying "He thought he saw a used condom."
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 09:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
So, you accused me of "greying things up" by claiming a pair of ATVs, a cargo truck, and a generator may have use in a place where tornados and floods are relatively common occurrences.

Do you have a response? Or a desire as to how I interpret a lack of response?
It's still grey. I can't comment because I don't know how often those things happen in Ferguson.
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 09:49 AM
 
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 10:19 AM
 
They need enstate an absolute dusk curfew, the people who actually live there have suffered enough.
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Aug 22, 2014, 10:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
More info is probably better, but in the end its beyond the point. I don't think there's any situation you can came up with in which the police officer is justified for either of those actions/statements.

It's like trying to give spousal abuse context by saying "He thought he saw a used condom."
I disagree. There are two separate actions the cop took. One was raising his weapon in response to seeing a weapon, one was threatening to murder an innocent civilian.

One is justifiable, and is in my understanding, standard operating procedure.

The other is not.
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 10:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's still grey. I can't comment because I don't know how often those things happen in Ferguson.
There is no place in this country which isn't subject to natural disasters, even if flooding and tornados aren't the ones they have there. That was just my best guess.

With all the talk of how the FPD thinks they're in Iraq, was not the actual list of what they bought the least bit surprising to you?
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 01:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's like trying to give spousal abuse context by saying "He thought he saw a used condom."
In this analogy isn't the "cheating" spouse the person with the BB gun?

Isn't a story about spousal abuse which doesn't mention the spouse omitting pertinent details?
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 01:33 PM
 
At a Shell station very close to where I live, there was a serious incident that happened yesterday morning, which resulted in two people being killed. From subsequent reports, it appears to be racially "sparked". Here is a link that I hope everyone can bring up about this:

One arrested in fatal shooting at Kent gas station | www.kirotv.com

Here is what I understand happened:

1. The two men in a Cadillac (one African American (the passenger), and the other Hispanic (the driver)) pulled up to a pump at the gas station (there is a convenience store there also, that is part of the entire operation).

2. When the Cadillac pulled up to the pump, it parked in a haphazard fashion, with all 4 doors opened, and music blaring loudly.

3. Apparently, this car was blocking entries to some other pumps.

4. Some construction workers started saying "racial" things towards the two guys.

5. Two employees of the store tried to "appease" the situation.

6. The driver, claiming disrespect, then got his gun out, shot the two employees, and then sped off.

7. He was finally caught later in the evening.

Apparently, this driver had similar "issues" previously, so one has to wonder about the "racial" claim. But, it is disturbing, to say the least.

With the Trayvon Martin incident, and what has been happening in Ferguson, one has to wonder what the hell is going on!

For the record, I have only stopped at that business to use the air pump for putting air in my tires (also, have been inside a few times to get some change for the air pumps, and also purchased a couple of lottery tickets). Employees there have always been nice, but unfortunately, the gas is too expensive there! But, it is a nice, clean establishment located in a nice area. In fact, Boeing used to have its' Space Center right across the street, and Amazon is constructing two facilities at the site where Boeing was.
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 01:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
In this analogy isn't the "cheating" spouse the person with the BB gun?

Isn't a story about spousal abuse which doesn't mention the spouse omitting pertinent details?
The BB Gun is the used condom.
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 02:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
The BB Gun is the used condom.
This is eliminating the fact a cop sees someone with a BB gun in a crowd they're obligated to do something about it.

Is raising their weapon in that circumstance unacceptable?

What are they supposed to do in that circumstance?

Both are honest questions.
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 02:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Is raising their weapon in that circumstance unacceptable?
I'm not a cop, but I'm under the impression you're not supposed to point that weapon until you're going use it. Someone better informed can fill us in.
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 02:32 PM
 
So, this is not a joke: https://twitter.com/aclu_mo/status/502832584632446976/





For comparison, this St. Louis County's Incident Report for August 9th.




Police don't have to care about the community they serve, but when they fail to do their job to this level? ****ing flush this department down the toilet and start over. This is reprehensible.
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 02:33 PM
 
^^

I can comment even while being relatively ill informed.

Cops point their gun at people and say "freeze" all the time.

I assume that's not what you have in mind with the term "use".
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 02:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
^^

I can comment even while being relatively ill informed.

Cops point their gun at people and say "freeze" all the time.

I assume that's not what you have in mind with the term "use".
Maybe the video started after he said "freeze", and we only got the "I will ****ing kill you" part. "I will ****ing kill you" is a typical police warning, right?
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 03:20 PM
 
Hmmm… Looks like the paper is supposed to be blank?

Michael Brown Shooting: Why Ferguson Police Never Filed 'Incident Report' - NBC News

Police in Ferguson, Missouri, did not file an “incident report” on the fatal shooting of 19-year-old Michael Brown because they turned the case over to St. Louis County police almost immediately, the county prosecutor’s office tells NBC News.

Critics and news media outlets have questioned why Ferguson police released an incident report from a robbery in which Brown was a suspect, as well as security video showing the robbery, but not the report on the shooting of the unarmed 18-year-old a short time later by Officer Darren Wilson.

The reason, according to the office of St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert P. McCulloch, is that it doesn’t exist.
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 03:52 PM
 
When you include the remainder of the article, it's pretty clear why. White cop shoots unarmed black kid and you think a detailed police report is going to be filled out at the scene? By who? The cop directly involved in the incident? Does not compute. He was pulled from the scene and interviewed by investigators. Whatever report they compiled becomes part of the Grand Jury investigation to determine if this thing goes forward.

Originally Posted by remainder of article
The St. Louis County police department presumably did file an incident report, but any such documents will not be made public until a grand jury investigating the officer-involved shooting concludes its investigation, according to officials from the office who briefed NBC News on the case.

The grand jury reviewing the facts in the case is impaneled until mid-September, but could continue to deliberate beyond its term, in which case their sole focus would be on the shooting of Brown. At the conclusion of its investigation, the grand jury will decide whether to indict Wilson in connection with the shooting.

The St. Louis County prosecutor's office stressed that it is cooperating with the concurrent federal investigation of Brown’s death and is sharing information with FBI agents who are looking into whether his civil rights were violated.
It was pretty stupid for the media to even expect or request a detailed police report from the Ferguson Police Dept in this scenario and even more mind-numbingly stupid that this would be juxtaposed with the police report for aggravated robbery committed by Brown. Just amazing. Absolutely amazing.

NO POLICE REPORT?!? BUT BROWN'S WAS RELEASED!!! RIOT!! LOOT! HANG WILSON! (and if you'd kindly tip-off the media when you'll start so they can get some good shots of the mayhem, that'd be great -- thanks.)
ebuddy
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 06:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
First, perhaps the Ferguson police department assumed one of the store owners or employees called 911 because in fact they were called, according to the Ferguson store owner who claims he wants to stay as far away from this as possible -- the police were called by a customer.
I think you are missing my point. I never said there wasn't a 911 call. There was and it was called in by a customer. The million dollar question is why does the police report say either the owner or his employee made the call when they did not? Indeed the store owner does "want to stay as far away from this as possible" ... which is why he publicly refuted the report claiming they made the call.

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Why did it take so long for the video footage of Brown's robbery to be released?

BECAUSE THE FEDERAL DEPT OF JUSTICE URGED THEM NOT TO!
Indeed they did. Because they knew it would only serve to toss a match onto a tinderbox since there was NO CONNECTION to the shooting. As the owner of the Ferguson Market can surely attest to. Did you notice how the Ferguson Police Chief refused to answer the reporter's question when he asked him point blank why he would release the Incident Report about the robbery and "put local businesses at risk" when there was NO CONNECTION? But the STL County PD still refuses to release the Incident Report about the shooting itself?

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Because both can be true. The initial stopping of them was for jay-walking. And of course it's SOOO easy to believe that a cop, sitting inside a closed vehicle would attempt to subdue a 6'4", 300lb man from through the window of his vehicle... for jaywalking. But not only do I not believe that nonsense, I believe it's possible that Wilson didn't know of the robbery connection until whenever it was the report came in and the stolen goods were identified. It just doesn't take that long to make such connections.
I don't know if I'm not making my point clear or if you are just ignoring it. So I'll roll with the former and try this from another angle. You say they can both be true. Ok so let's roll with that. The reason why I'm saying the story is changing is NOT because he didn't know Mike Brown was a suspect on the initial contact ... but then put 2 and 2 together soon thereafter and that's why he put the car in reverse and stopped them again. What I'm saying is that if Wilson thought Brown might be a suspect because he saw the cigars in his hand after the initial contact and therefore decided to stop them for a second time ... then that would be highly pertinent information to mention to the investigators. If Wilson had told the STL County investigators or the Ferguson Police Chief that he thought Brown was a suspect when he stopped them the second time then they most definitely would have mentioned that on the Aug. 10 press conference! They damned sure would have mentioned that at some point during the TWO Aug. 15 press conferences which occurred a week later! But that's not what happened. Instead, they INSISTED that there was NO CONNECTION to the robbery at all. REPEATEDLY.

Bear in mind the reporters weren't asking the Ferguson Police Chief if there was a connection between the robbery and the reason for the initial contact. They were asking him if there was a connection between the robbery and the shooting of Mike Brown. So the police can't say there's NO CONNECTION for a WEEK ... REPEATEDLY ... and then try to turn around and suggest that Wilson made the second stop because he saw the cigars and thought Brown was a suspect in the robbery. Follow me?

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
To get away after beating the crap out of a cop -- very believable yes.
Not corroborated by any of the eyewitnesses. But ok. He's fleeing.

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
This we do not know and perhaps 3 more autopsies should be performed in an attempt to establish this gem.
Ok. I'll say this again. ALL the eyewitnesses who have come forward said the cop was shooting at Brown while he was running away. ALL OF THEM!!!! But magically that translates into "This we do not know" in your mind. That's a real neat trick. And what does "3 more autopsies" have to do with it? You do realize that not every shot had to hit Brown in order for Wilson to be shooting at him from behind right? One of the eyewitnesses even described how the police had to extract some of the bullets that missed Brown from the walls of nearby residences. So while Brown was HIT 6 times ... Wilson fired even more rounds than that.

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
This we also don't know and we've got stories running the gamut. We're not going to hear the witnesses going public on Brown's guilt because everyone knows SNITCHES GET STITCHES®. Suffice it to say, perhaps there are additional eye-witness accounts neither one of us know about. I'm willing to accept the totality of evidence once the system has run its course.
Ok ebuddy ..... I often say "my friend" in my dialogue with you because I really do like you. I admire your debating skills and the intellect you bring to the forums. So please don't take offense ... but this right here is simply not on your usual level. You're slipping here and I'll tell you why.

You can't on the one hand say "we've got stories running the gamut" ... but then OTOH you turn around in the NEXT SENTENCE and say "We're not going to hear the witnesses going public on Brown's guilt because everyone knows SNITCHES GET STITCHES®." Seriously .... WTF? Now let's set aside the fact that you have yet to cite a single eyewitness account which tells a different story. There's no way you don't see how utterly contradictory that is! If "snitches get stitches" as you claim then you would never have "stories running the gamut". Come on bro!

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Right and with so much we don't know, we should probably just let the system run its course.
On this note we agree!

But I for one would not be surprised if the grand jury doesn't even indict Wilson. Especially with Bob McCulloch as the STL County Prosecutor. As I said earlier in the thread this guy is notorious around here for his pro-police bias. Not only does he have several family members who are STL County PD. His father who was also STL County PD was killed by an African-American criminal when he was just 12 years old. If it were just that a lot of people around here would just be giving him the "side-eye" and hoping for the best.

But on top of all that back in 2000 there was another very controversial and high profile case where two undercover white cops shot and killed a couple of unarmed black men during a drug sting. This occurred in the parking lot of a Jack in the Box in the municipality of Berkeley, MO which is right next door to Ferguson. When the undercover cops went to arrest ONE of the men who they had previously made some SMALL TIME marijuana and cocaine purchases from (this guy was by no means moving major weight) ... he backed out of a parking space and collided with an SUV driven by a DEA agent. When he turned his wheels to leave the officers moved in front of the car and opened fire killing both men. One of the undercover officers even leapt onto the hood of the car and unloaded on these guys! What was the officer's story? What it ALWAYS is .... they "feared for their lives". This time because they swore on a stack of bibles that the driver tried to get away and drove the car towards them. Which begs the question ... who in their right mind would jump in front of a moving car? Naturally, none of that was true as a subsequent federal investigation revealed. The car was in reverse the entire time! And who was in charge of the STL County Drug Task Force at the time? Tom Jackson, the current Ferguson Police Chief! Bob McCulloch the STL County Prosecutor presented the case to the grand jury which chose not to indict because they believed the officers. McCulloch said he agreed with the decision. But wait it gets worse!!!

“Many community members don’t believe he can be fair and impartial,” state Sen. Jamilah Nasheed, D-St. Louis, said. She launched the petition drive with the goal of gathering 50,000 signatures. “We will continue to put pressure on him to resign,” she said.

Nasheed cited McCulloch’s investigation into the actions of two undercover drug detectives who killed a suspect and his passenger in a car on the parking lot of the Jack in the Box restaurant in Berkeley in 2000.

Grand jury proceedings are secret. McCulloch, in telling the public what the grand jury had found, repeatedly insisted that “every witness” had testified that the two detectives fired to defend themselves after the suspect tried to run them over with his car.

The Post-Dispatch reviewed the previously secret grand jury tapes and found that McCulloch’s public statements were untrue.


Only three of the 13 detectives who testified said the suspect’s car had moved forward, in the direction of the two officers who shot him and his passenger. Two of those were the shooters themselves. The third was a detective who McCulloch later said he considered charging with perjury because his account was so at odds with the facts.

Contrary to McCulloch’s public statements, the grand jury tapes showed that four other detectives testified that they never saw the suspect’s car travel toward the officers.


McCulloch never brought independent evidence before the grand jury to sort out who was right.

Nor did he request the testimony of a nationally noted collision expert who investigated the case for the Justice Department. He determined that the suspect’s car had always been in reverse — added proof that it did not move toward the detectives.
20,000 sign petitions seeking special prosecutor in Michael Brown shooting : News

What did Tom Jackson, the current Ferguson Police Chief, do the last time? Everything in his power to protect his officers even though there was plenty of reason to be highly skeptical of the official police story. You have Bob McCulloch, the STL County Prosecutor, straight up busted telling repeated, bald-faced lies to the public about the evidence presented in the secret grand jury proceedings he controlled. So given their behavior in that previous situation ... is there any wonder why many African-Americans around here have little to no confidence that there will be an impartial investigation this time?

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
There are conflicting accounts. That's the painful truth of it. There are conflicting accounts. They may not fit your narrative or political sensitivities, but it is what it is. We have conflicting, real-time accounts of what happened.
As you can probably surmise by now I was born and raised in Missouri. And this is the "Show Me State". So you keep saying this but again ... you have yet to produce a single eyewitness account that tells a different story. And some caller into a local radio talk show named "Josie" relaying a third-hand account doesn't quite cut it.

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
This is not justice, it's guilt until proven innocent by your own words. i.e. you're no better than a beat-walking pig in this regard.
I'm not saying Wilson is guilty until proven innocent. I'm saying there is plenty of evidence to warrant Wilson being charged and arrested.

The Mound City Bar Association, the oldest African-American association of attorneys west of the Mississippi, has called for McCulloch to recuse himself from the Brown investigation amid mounting mistrust within the Ferguson community.

Leslie Broadnax, a black woman who recently ran an unsuccessful campaign to unseat McCulloch as county prosecutor, questioned the decision to present Wilson’s case to a grand jury before bringing charges.

“The prosecutor can issue charges based on evidence, or arrest and hold an individual for 24 hours and then release them pending charges from the grand jury,” Broadnax told msnbc.
“Why [McCulloch] chose not to do that I don’t know. He’s decided to skip that step and just present to the grand jury.”
What a grand jury will look for in the Michael Brown shooting | MSNBC

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Got it. So no matter what comes to light here in the next month or two, Wilson is guilty of cold-blooded murder. Just as I suspected. You've got Brown and his accomplice Slim McShady and of course, we should buy off on what Johnson has to say because it partially matches some of what other eyewitnesses are saying about an officer with nary a complaint on record, and with no regard for any other witnesses including the potential witnesses who have not yet been made public FOR THEIR APPARENT NEED FOR SAFETY, you've already tried and convicted Wilson. That's all I needed to know, thanks, bruh.
Nary a complaint on record huh? You mean like how a month ago Wilson encountered a young, black woman at that same QT that got burned down who had been maced. She went inside to wash her eyes out and one of the employees told her to use milk. Some officers come inside and tell her to leave. She complies and goes outside where she runs into Wilson. She tries to pour the milk in her eyes but Wilson tells her if she does she will be arrested. She tells him her eyes were burning because she was maced and he just tells her to "Shut the f*ck up!". Another guy tells her to get in her car and put her face in front the vent so she does. Wilson makes her get out and sit on the sidewalk. So she can continue to suffer with no relief whatsoever. As he's taking her info she's still trying to pour the milk in her eyes because she can't see. But he's still full of "Shut the f*ck up!" and "Sit the f*ck down!" towards a young woman in distress. Again, I know firsthand how "One Time" gets down around here and the blatant disrespect a lot of them show to black residents. So I have no reason whatsoever to doubt her story about Officer Friendly.

Darren Wilson Mace Story | YouTube.com

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Aug 22, 2014 at 07:02 PM. )
     
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Aug 22, 2014, 07:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Maybe the video started after he said "freeze", and we only got the "I will ****ing kill you" part. "I will ****ing kill you" is a typical police warning, right?
subego: the cop did two things. AFAICT, one was standard procedure, the other was threatening murder [emphasis added]. Here are my questions about the cop raising his weapon...

Dakar: my understanding is you don't raise a gun unless you mean to use it.

subego: that's not true. Here's a clear and common example how that's not true for the police.

Dakar: where is threatening murder standard procedure!?!

subego:
     
 
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