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Police discrimination, misconduct, Ferguson, MO, the Roman Legion, and now math??? (Page 6)
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Clinically Insane
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Aug 29, 2014, 02:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This is piddling bullshit I just realized I don't want to argue. You think his line is official, I don't. End of story.
Umm... I'm pretty sure I didn't do anything, and you just ripped me a new one out of nowhere.

You may be in the cranky zone.
     
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Aug 29, 2014, 02:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Umm... I'm pretty sure I didn't do anything, and you just ripped me a new one out of nowhere.

You may be in the cranky zone.
You were trying to retroactively justify your comment that there's nothing wrong about that officer raising his weapon by seizing on the quote by the chief that he was ok with it.

The crankiness comes from realizing I'm wasting my time on it; It's really easy to get sucked into arguments on here and I try to limit my time and scope to ones that matter (Like ebuddy's post on cops and racism).
     
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Aug 29, 2014, 02:46 PM
 
You mistake my commentary. I gave a whole list of reasons why having automatic weapons at a protest/riot makes no sense to me. I put it to the forum to come up with a reasonable scenario where a cop firing into a crowd with a rifle is less dangerous than what someone in the crowd could do.

I asked for the scenario because I can't come up with one myself.

What I said is what Go **** Yourself did appears to be standard procedure, as does handing out assault weapons to Joe cop even once the National Guard have been called.

I don't know why both of these things are standard procedure. As I said, the math doesn't work out for me. However, just because I don't know it, doesn't mean it isn't there, and I'd prefer someone with authority to explain it before I pass judgement. Policies like this don't spring out of nowhere.

My point in bringing up what the chief said was solely meant to show evidence raising his weapon was considered standard procedure, not that it was justified.
     
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Aug 29, 2014, 11:43 PM
 
Regardless. It's perfectly possible to politely end a discussion.

Likewise, I can assure you the discussion mattered to me, which makes the ill treatment all the more unpleasant.
     
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Aug 30, 2014, 08:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
So are you against body cams? Because…? How about dash cams?
I fully support police cameras, one or the other, but I much prefer body cams. I believe they're more expensive, but the dash-cams aren't cheap and it's my understanding they only pick up apprx 20% of interactions with the public whereas the body-cam would address 100%. I'm just saying we shouldn't stop there.
ebuddy
     
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Aug 30, 2014, 09:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
You have reporters being arrested, the police using excessive force for no justifiable reason, and the being released with no charges. And yes, there's video. The police chief hand waves the problem away as them "not knowing any better."

The cops were so antagonistic to reporters, the ACLU had to come to an agreement that yes, recording them is legal.

And as I posted above, enough people became fed-up with the treatment to civilians during protests that they filed a lawsuit. Now you may proceed to wave it away as the natural consequence of either an overly litigious society or some people looking to score a pay-day.
I've already acknowledged there are bad actors, Dakar. There are people in police uniforms just as there are soldiers in fatigues or teachers in the classroom who do not respond well to stressful situations. A Union environment can often make it more difficult to get rid of these bad actors and as I've mentioned there can be a "tribal" phenomena at play. However, I don't know that it's productive to post every solitary story of every teacher abuse or police abuse to make the problem appear more pervasive than it is. It's not "waving anything off" as much as suggesting some perspective is in order.

Does this apply to cops as well, or do you give them the benefit of the doubt?
Let me put it this way; I will place more benefit of doubt on the guy with a 6-year track record of effective service having come off a call for someone's sick 2 year old child than I will a guy coming off a strong-arm robbery and posts of himself as a minor with a mouthful of cash, alcohol, and a handgun pointed at the camera.

Obviously not. Is that justification to suspend everyone's right to protest?
There were some 100 total arrests throughout that affair of how many thousands of protestors from Ferguson and beyond? There's a tendency to get very emotional around this stuff and a tell-tale sign of this problem is statements like "everyone" and "all the time". Everyone's right to protest was not suspended. In fact, in most cases the police were providing a safe environment for conducting the protest. Many of the arrests came from "failure to disperse" as part of police responsibility is to separate protestors from hostiles. Their methodology was to keep people moving. They could move back and forth with signs and chants, but they couldn't stop and loiter because the problems were identified with hostiles "mixing in" to growing crowds.

The irony being everything you say to justify the cops behavior could be used in turn to justify minorities, too. You say we shouldn't paint all cops as bad actors, but that is the assumption made of all blacks by cops. You say people cracking to immense pressure shouldn't be used to indict them, yet when blacks become fed-up with cop harassment, it's seen as proof of their violent tendencies.
I've never once suggested that minorities are bad actors or try to paint them that way en masse. I merely offered a wealth of statistics to support the claim that by far, the best way to avoid unsavory experiences with the police is to avoid breaking laws. It's really a very simple, inarguable point for all, but those with an antagonistic agenda.

Finally, you keep being clever and dodging my legitimate question. What does a non-thug black man have to do to avoid harassment and suspicion from cops?
With all due respect, it's a silly question. What does a non-homicidal-maniac cop have to do to avoid harassment and suspicion from a community? How about an innocent shop-owner from getting shoved by the throat and robbed or a QT manager from having his building burnt to the ground? While I and many among the black community would suggest a good place to start would be to pull your pants up, the fact of the matter is that overwhelmingly from a statistical, factual perspective -- most non-thug black men will avoid harassment from cops.
ebuddy
     
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Aug 30, 2014, 09:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
@ebuddy

As I mentioned above, having to consistently deal with the "bad actors" in a particular minority group prejudices you against the group.
The bad actors I was talking about are bad cops.

This is one of the numerous psychological effects of being a cop which is rarely, if ever, addressed by police departments.
I disagree. It's constantly being addressed by cops, but good intentions do not necessarily mean good outcomes. The NYPD is taking a lot of heat for a policy "stop and frisk" that they've employed in the past for example, with an extremely effective track record of saving African-American lives. Not good enough -- they're racist for employing the policy. People do not think things through in a fair and sober manner, they latch onto an intellectually dishonest narrative of cops "targeting" this group or that when in reality they are responding to the demands of the very communities in question. You and others may not appreciate their ideas for mitigating death rates that match that of Iraq and Afghanistan, but I'm not seeing a wealth of any other ideas.

The cops deserve to be called out on their failure here just as much (if not more) than minority groups.
I agree with this, but "calling cops out" is not my point of contention here. Using this thread's subject matter of "calling cops out" IMO, is not productive when all the facts of this case are not known. This is akin to a fallacious argument; "SEE?!? COPS DO BAD THINGS THEREFORE WILSON IS PROBABLY GUILTY OF DOING BAD THINGS!" I merely offered an opposing perspective.
ebuddy
     
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Aug 30, 2014, 02:37 PM
 
1) I know you were talking about cops. I wasn't. "Bad actors" are not limited to cops.

2) What does "stop and frisk" have to do with police departments addressing the psychological impact of being a cop?

3) I don't need to know the specifics of this case to know that policing has a heavy streak of machismo, and that machismo has poor compatibility with things like psychiatric treatment.


To be clear though, it's not the cop's fault their department doesn't require extensive psychiatric treatment to deal with the impact being a cop has on you.
     
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Aug 31, 2014, 05:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
1) I know you were talking about cops. I wasn't. "Bad actors" are not limited to cops.

2) What does "stop and frisk" have to do with police departments addressing the psychological impact of being a cop?

3) I don't need to know the specifics of this case to know that policing has a heavy streak of machismo, and that machismo has poor compatibility with things like psychiatric treatment.

To be clear though, it's not the cop's fault their department doesn't require extensive psychiatric treatment to deal with the impact being a cop has on you.
I missed that line of your reasoning, my bad. And I do agree with this as a problem identified in the military as well. One of the problems that leads to situations like those presented in this thread however is response to pressure. You don't necessarily want cops "stopping to think" in a volatile situation with someone potentially hostile.

What psychiatric services do you believe would be most applicable or useful to a cop or beneficial to the communities they serve?
ebuddy
     
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Aug 31, 2014, 05:31 PM
 
No worries!

The psychiatric situation is such a mess in these situations, I don't really know what the best way to proceed would be. Sadly, I think it would take several years for police culture to change to the point where cops would actually make use of a well thought out program.

I know plenty of people who seem to have no issue flat-out lying to their shrink, which basically breaks the entire process. I see cops having this attitude or worse for a long time.

I agree with the notion cops are stuck to a certain extent with training and instinct to get them out of situations alive.
     
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Sep 3, 2014, 03:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Still curious, if Brown wasn't an aggressor; why Brown managed to get a flurry of bullets and yet Johnson made out with exactly zero? Dorian "Neo" Johnson perhaps?
That has already been answered. Brown ran straight down the middle of the street. Johnson ran and hid behind a car on the side of the road. So by the time Wilson got out of the car and started shooting at Brown his friend Johnson was no longer in the line of fire.

OAW
     
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Sep 3, 2014, 03:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
The PSA? Don't be a friggin' thug and your chances of unsavory encounters with the police will be little to none. Period.
Tell that to this guy who was tasered and arrested for Sitting While Black in a public area while waiting to pick up his children from school. Confiscated his phone for 6 months. All charges dismissed.

Black man taken to jail for sitting in public area | YouTube.com

Or this acclaimed black TV producer who detained on the streets of Beverly Hills and publicly humiliated by being forced to sit on the ground for 45 minutes in handcuffs. Then arrested and held in a police station for over 6 hours. Why? Because he "fit the description". And what was that description? "Tall, bald headed, black male". Oh wow. That'll really narrow down the list! And what makes this case particularly egregious you might ask? It's not so much that the police arrested him. It's messed up but mistakes do happen. No itt's because the police refused to even check the ATM and bank HD video footage to compare that person seen committing the crime to the guy they had arrested. They could have EASILY seen they had the wrong guy. But when a cop has an "Any n*gger will do." attitude ... that's simply too much like right.

Black TV Producer is Mistaken for Bank Robber | CNN.com

OAW

PS: As "crazy" as it may sound to some, most African-American males are admonished from the time they are children to NEVER RUN IN PUBLIC outside of designated playgrounds or sports fields. Lest someone think you stole something or was otherwise up to no good. The TV producer in this instance was going to his car to put money in an expired parking meter. He spoke about how he was glad he had stopped jogging and walked the rest of the way to the meter right before he was approached by the cops. Because if he had been running they might have put a bullet in him. Just saying ...
     
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Sep 3, 2014, 04:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I disagree. It's constantly being addressed by cops, but good intentions do not necessarily mean good outcomes. The NYPD is taking a lot of heat for a policy "stop and frisk" that they've employed in the past for example, with an extremely effective track record of saving African-American lives. Not good enough -- they're racist for employing the policy. People do not think things through in a fair and sober manner, they latch onto an intellectually dishonest narrative of cops "targeting" this group or that when in reality they are responding to the demands of the very communities in question.
Huh? Surely you jest?

Stop-and-frisk has removed thousands of guns from the city’s streets — but the NYPD detained millions of innocent New Yorkers to find them.

A Columbia law professor testified Wednesday that just one gun was recovered for every thousand people stopped from 2004 through June 30, 2012.

“The NYPD hit rate is far less than what you would achieve by chance,” Jeffrey Fagan said in Manhattan Federal Court.

Testifying in the federal class-action lawsuit against the city and the NYPD’s controversial tactic, Fagan said his analysis of paperwork from 4.4 million stops found guns were confiscated at a rate of roughly one-tenth of 1 percent, or 5,940 firearms.

Knives and other contraband were nabbed in about 1.5% of stops, taking 66,000 weapons off the street, the professor said.

And 12% of the 4.4 million stops during that time period — roughly 528,000 — led to an actual arrest or a summons, Fagan said.

And the rest were “just let go?” asked Federal Judge Shira Scheindlin. “Yes, your honor,” Fagan replied.
NYPD stop-and-frisk policy yielded 4.4 million detentions but few results: study - NY Daily News

Let's recap ....

- "Stop and Frisk" has a one-tenth of 1 percent "hit rate" for firearms.
- 88% of the time no arrest is made.
- Whites are twice as likely to have a firearm found on them than African-Americans.
- Whites are two-thirds more likely to have other contraband on them than African-Americans.
- Yet African-Americans are far more likely to have a "Stop and Frisk" encounter with the NYPD.

- If the NYPD just randomly threw tennis balls into crowds of people on the streets all over NYC and "stopped and frisked" only those who got hit ... they would find more illegal firearms than their current approach.

So how exactly does a policy which by any objective measure is so stunningly ineffective for its stated purpose somehow have an "extremely effective track record of saving African-American lives"?

OAW
     
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Sep 3, 2014, 04:37 PM
 
A really insightful long-form article that digs deeper into some of the observations I made earlier. Specifically, how the proliferation of "municipalities" in STL County ... many of which are only a few blocks long, contain a few hundred residents, and provide little to nothing by way of local services ... is simply a racket to pimp the population for traffic violation fines and court fees. Couple this with the abysmal track record Missouri has with Driving While Black stops and you can see why tensions are running high.

How St. Louis County, Missouri profits from poverty - The Washington Post

OAW
     
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Sep 4, 2014, 07:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Huh? Surely you jest?



NYPD stop-and-frisk policy yielded 4.4 million detentions but few results: study - NY Daily News

Let's recap ....

- "Stop and Frisk" has a one-tenth of 1 percent "hit rate" for firearms.
- 88% of the time no arrest is made.
- Whites are twice as likely to have a firearm found on them than African-Americans.
- Whites are two-thirds more likely to have other contraband on them than African-Americans.
- Yet African-Americans are far more likely to have a "Stop and Frisk" encounter with the NYPD.

- If the NYPD just randomly threw tennis balls into crowds of people on the streets all over NYC and "stopped and frisked" only those who got hit ... they would find more illegal firearms than their current approach.

So how exactly does a policy which by any objective measure is so stunningly ineffective for its stated purpose somehow have an "extremely effective track record of saving African-American lives"?

OAW
I was speaking more in terms of their precipitous drop in murder rates to 50-year historic lows in NYC and an incarceration rate that has at the same time dropped by some 39%. When you consider these reductions and the percentage of those in the minority community who comprised the victim rates, they've concluded nearly 7400 lives saved, mostly minorities while at the same time showing a sharp decline in incarceration rates. While the measure is contentious to be sure, I can't think of another reason offhand that they would be enjoying such steep declines while other major cities are not.
ebuddy
     
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Sep 4, 2014, 11:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I was speaking more in terms of their precipitous drop in murder rates to 50-year historic lows in NYC and an incarceration rate that has at the same time dropped by some 39%. When you consider these reductions and the percentage of those in the minority community who comprised the victim rates, they've concluded nearly 7400 lives saved, mostly minorities while at the same time showing a sharp decline in incarceration rates. While the measure is contentious to be sure, I can't think of another reason offhand that they would be enjoying such steep declines while other major cities are not.
Those murder rates were dropping anyway. Long before Stop & Frisk. As they have in other large cities that don't employ Stop & Frisk.

OAW
     
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Sep 4, 2014, 11:07 AM
 
I spoke earlier of the "proliferation of "municipalities" in STL County ... many of which are only a few blocks long, contain a few hundred residents, and provide little to nothing by way of local services ... is simply a racket to pimp the population for traffic violation fines and court fees." Here's a prime example of what I'm talking about ...

The six-member police force being built here will have an officer for every couple of square blocks.

Flordell Hills has 822 residents living on about a dozen streets in less than a square mile. It will stop relying on its larger neighbor — Country Club Hills — for police services starting at midnight Oct. 1.


The new police chief and former city marshal, Dennis Oglesby Sr., said Wednesday the move will bring improved services at the same or a lower cost.

The transition began months ago, before protests over the police shooting of Michael Brown in nearby Ferguson, a short distance up West Florissant Avenue, put a fresh light on the fragmentation of municipalities and services in St. Louis County.

Flordell Hills becomes the 58th municipal police department in the county of 1 million people. That doesn’t include the county police, which covers the third of the population that lives in unincorporated areas or in cities under contract.

“In my opinion, the residents of Flordell Hills would be much better served contracting with the St. Louis County police,” said Rick Rosenfeld, a criminologist at the University of Missouri-St. Louis, in an interview Wednesday.

He said officers in larger agencies often are better trained and have deeper resources. The county police has about 750 officers.

Rosenfeld said he fears the greater issue may be a desire to maximize revenue from traffic tickets.

The city is a sort of island surrounded by Jennings, from which it once contracted for police protection. A scandal prompted Jennings to dissolve its force and contract with the county in 2011.

Flordell Hills had also considered such a contract, but went to Country Club Hills instead after county police refused to continue to operate its speed cameras, county Police Chief Tim Fitch said at the time. Fitch, since retired, has been a vocal critic of automated traffic enforcement and small police departments.
Flordell Hills, with just 822 residents, will soon have its own police force | STLToday.com

OAW
     
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Sep 5, 2014, 06:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Those murder rates were dropping anyway. Long before Stop & Frisk. As they have in other large cities that don't employ Stop & Frisk.

OAW
I think NYC has been most noteworthy in its decline with many attributing it to stop and frisk.

Time - Murders Dip Everywhere, But NYC in a League of Its Own
And while the trend has been widespread — murders were down all the way to 14,000 nationwide last year from the 23,000 mark in 1990 — the improvement has been especially stunning in the Big Apple, criminologists say.

“New York has had the largest and most consistent decline in serious crime of any city in the country,” said David Kennedy, a professor at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice and director of the Center for Crime Prevention and Control. “The scale and the trajectory and the consistency is unique nationally.”
ebuddy
     
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Sep 5, 2014, 09:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I fully support police cameras, one or the other, but I much prefer body cams. I believe they're more expensive, but the dash-cams aren't cheap and it's my understanding they only pick up apprx 20% of interactions with the public whereas the body-cam would address 100%. I'm just saying we shouldn't stop there.
Good, I'm with you on this. Body cameras would be more useful than dash cams.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I've already acknowledged there are bad actors, Dakar. There are people in police uniforms just as there are soldiers in fatigues or teachers in the classroom who do not respond well to stressful situations. A Union environment can often make it more difficult to get rid of these bad actors and as I've mentioned there can be a "tribal" phenomena at play. However, I don't know that it's productive to post every solitary story of every teacher abuse or police abuse to make the problem appear more pervasive than it is. It's not "waving anything off" as much as suggesting some perspective is in order.
Ok, here's the problem: The Blue Wall of Silence. Good cops don't report bad cops because the backlash tends to range from being ostracized to death. It's the police verso of "snitches get stitches." And the reason to post every story of police abuse and incompetence is because for everyone you catch how many are missed? Second, the only way to get attention and possibly reform is to highlight these incidents. It's called being pro-active.

Look, we've had a few cops fired and another few under review just from the protests. Is this somehow bad? Do you think they're being martyred? Are they victims of a stressful situation?


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Let me put it this way; I will place more benefit of doubt on the guy with a 6-year track record of effective service having come off a call for someone's sick 2 year old child than I will a guy coming off a strong-arm robbery and posts of himself as a minor with a mouthful of cash, alcohol, and a handgun pointed at the camera.
Effective = no complaints? Because from what I recall Ferguson has no system in place where you can track any complaints made against officers (complaints were instead filed with the arrest).


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
There were some 100 total arrests throughout that affair of how many thousands of protestors from Ferguson and beyond? There's a tendency to get very emotional around this stuff and a tell-tale sign of this problem is statements like "everyone" and "all the time". Everyone's right to protest was not suspended. In fact, in most cases the police were providing a safe environment for conducting the protest. Many of the arrests came from "failure to disperse" as part of police responsibility is to separate protestors from hostiles. Their methodology was to keep people moving. They could move back and forth with signs and chants, but they couldn't stop and loiter because the problems were identified with hostiles "mixing in" to growing crowds.
They instituted curfews, constantly dispersed crowds with tear gas, tried to disperse crowds ahead of curfews (getting earlier each day until they were doing so during daylight hours), and frequently claimed "You can't protest here."

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Their methodology was to keep people moving. They could move back and forth with signs and chants, but they couldn't stop and loiter because the problems were identified with hostiles "mixing in" to growing crowds.
That contradicts the people's right to assemble will not be infringed.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I merely offered a wealth of statistics to support the claim that by far, the best way to avoid unsavory experiences with the police is to avoid breaking laws. It's really a very simple, inarguable point for all, but those with an antagonistic agenda.
The you're not paying attention. Most of the unsavory experiences seem to result from innocent people questioning the cops reasoning or authority. Like the father that was tasked in St. Louis earlier this year.

By the way, "don't break the law" is just a form of victim blaming someone who is on the receiving end of police brutality or abuse of authority.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
With all due respect, it's a silly question.
It's not. Remember the black professor who was stopped by a cop on his own lawn? You think that wasn't about race? Or the alderman from St. Louis who was arrested and released without charges during the protests? What could they have done better?


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
What does a non-homicidal-maniac cop have to do to avoid harassment and suspicion from a community?
Try to form a personal connection with the community. That's exactly what that State Trooper did after the night of Ferguson tear gassing everyone in sight. He marched with the protestors, took photos with them, and was accessible. It completely defused the situation from the night before.

I suppose the short answer is, treat them like people, not potential criminals.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
While I and many among the black community would suggest a good place to start would be to pull your pants up, the fact of the matter is that overwhelmingly from a statistical, factual perspective -- most non-thug black men will avoid harassment from cops.
You see what you're saying, though? How is how I wear my pants justification for police harassment?
     
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Sep 5, 2014, 09:59 AM
 
@ebuddy

When did S&F start?

NYC's murder rate was around 2,600 in 1990 and around 900 in 2000.
     
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Sep 5, 2014, 10:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
A really insightful long-form article that digs deeper into some of the observations I made earlier. Specifically, how the proliferation of "municipalities" in STL County ... many of which are only a few blocks long, contain a few hundred residents, and provide little to nothing by way of local services ... is simply a racket to pimp the population for traffic violation fines and court fees. Couple this with the abysmal track record Missouri has with Driving While Black stops and you can see why tensions are running high.

How St. Louis County, Missouri profits from poverty - The Washington Post

OAW
This deserves more attention because it's another of those articles that explains why the community reached it's breaking point when a confrontation got deadly over someone walking in the middle of the street.

The Florissant officer first took Bolden to the jail in that town, where Bolden posted a couple hundred dollars bond and was released at around midnight. She was next taken to Hazelwood and held at the jail there until she could post a second bond. That was another couple hundred dollars. She wasn’t released from her cell there until around 5 p.m. the next day. Exhausted, stressed, and still worried about what her kids had seen, she was finally taken to the St. Charles County jail for the outstanding warrant in Foristell. Why the county jail? Because the tiny town of 500 isn’t large enough to have its own holding cell, even though it does have a mayor, a board of aldermen, a municipal court and a seven-member police department. It’s probably best known locally for the speed trap its police set along I-70.

The Foristell warrant stemmed from a speeding ticket in 2011. As mentioned before, Bolden didn’t show up in court because she didn’t have the money to pay it and feared they’d put her jail. It’s a common and unfortunate misconception among St. Louis County residents, especially those who don’t have an attorney to tell them otherwise. A town can’t put you in jail for lacking the money to pay a fine. But you can be jailed not appearing in court to tell the judge you can’t pay — and fined again for not showing up. After twice failing to appear for the Foristell ticket, Bolden showed up, was able to get the warrant removed and set up a payment plan with the court. But she says that a few months later, she was a couple days late with her payment. She says she called to notify the clerk, who told her not to worry. Instead, the town hit her with another warrant — the same warrant for which she was jailed in March.

Some of the towns in St. Louis County can derive 40 percent or more of their annual revenue from the petty fines and fees collected by their municipal courts. A majority of these fines are for traffic offenses, but they can also include fines for fare-hopping on MetroLink (St. Louis’s light rail system), loud music and other noise ordinance violations, zoning violations for uncut grass or unkempt property, violations of occupancy permit restrictions, trespassing, wearing “saggy pants,” business license violations and vague infractions such as “disturbing the peace” or “affray” that give police officers a great deal of discretion to look for other violations. In a white paper released last month (PDF), the ArchCity Defenders found a large group of people outside the courthouse in Bel-Ridge who had been fined for not subscribing to the town’s only approved garbage collection service. They hadn’t been fined for having trash on their property, only for not paying for the only legal method the town had designated for disposing of trash.
About 80 percent of the people in the gym tonight are black, even though blacks make up just 27 percent of the town. According to statistics compiled by Missouri’s attorney general’s office, 71 percent of the people pulled over by Florissant police in 2013 were black. The search and arrest rates for blacks were also twice as high as those rates for whites, even though whites were more likely to be found with contraband, a contradiction that has also been widely reported in Ferguson.
Too many baggy pants, ebuddy?


In nearly all the towns in St. Louis County, the prosecutors and judges in these courts are part-time positions, and are not elected, but appointed by the mayor, town council, or city manager. According to a recent white paper published by the ArchCity Defenders, the chief prosecutor in Florissant Municipal Court makes $56,060 per year. It’s a position that requires him to work 12 court sessions per year, at about three hours per session. The Florissant prosecutor is Ronald Brockmeyer, who also has a criminal defense practice in St. Charles County, and who is also the chief municipal prosecutor for the towns of Vinita Park and Dellwood. He is also the judge – yes, the judge — in both Ferguson and Breckenridge Hills. Brockmeyer isn’t alone: Several other attorneys serve as prosecutor in one town and judge in another. And at least one St. Louis County assistant district attorney is also a municipal court judge.

“I had a felony criminal case in state court a few weeks ago,” says a local defense attorney, who asked not to be quoted by name. “Sometimes criminal cases can get contentious. You have to do everything you can to defend your client, and sometime your interaction with a prosecutor can get combative. A few days later, I was representing a client who had a few warrants in a municipal court where the same prosecutor I was just battling with is now the judge. Is my client is going to get a fair hearing? You hope so. But it sure looks like a conflict to me.”
And Voss recalls one incident in which after successfully negotiating with a prosecutor to reduce his clients’ fines, the prosecutor replied, “You’re taking money right out of my pocket, here.”
“There are now 26 different ways you can lose your license in St. Louis County,” he says. “There used to be five. You can now lose your license for things that have nothing to do with driving. We definitely have a problem with over-criminalization.” One local attorney pointed to a particularly good example of how poorly-written laws can be self-defeating: In Missouri, you can lose your driver’s license for failure to pay child support, a penalty that makes it nearly impossible to get or keep a job. And that of course makes it difficult to resume paying child support. The delinquent parent ends up in jail, and the child is no better off — and is probably quite a bit worse.
It's so lengthy I had to stop here.
     
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Sep 5, 2014, 12:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
@ebuddy

When did S&F start?

NYC's murder rate was around 2,600 in 1990 and around 900 in 2000.
Guiliani instituted the program in NYC in 1994.
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Sep 5, 2014, 12:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This deserves more attention because it's another of those articles that explains why the community reached it's breaking point when a confrontation got deadly over someone walking in the middle of the street.

Too many baggy pants, ebuddy?

It's so lengthy I had to stop here.
So... you'll offer example after example of government regulations, dodgy tactics, and related fees run amok in this thread, but I can't get an "amen" virtually anywhere else. Nothing on any number of scandals presented in this forum on a national, weekly basis including the tactics of the DOJ, EPA, IRS... but let there be a single county or handful of counties in the US with examples of bad apples and we get an exhaustive analysis from you and OAW. I never once defended government folly or abusive Union environments that make it impossible to get rid of bad actors. All I've done is suggest that what you will not hear is anything not newsworthy or placing the police in a positive light.

I've spoken to OAW a number of times on the DWB offense and I'm obviously opposed to such a phenomena. You will notice however in this "targeting" that it has been deemed "blue on black", not "white people in blue on black". I've spoken on the "tribal" phenomena of a union environment that makes it impossible to fire bad actors; also a phenomena in virtually every other prominent union environment including the public school system -- also a point I can't seem to get an "amen" on.

It's a crap-job that no one else wants to do and I felt some perspective was in order -- the same thing y'all do when someone wants to bag on abusive educators. That's all.
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Sep 5, 2014, 01:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This deserves more attention because it's another of those articles that explains why the community reached it's breaking point when a confrontation got deadly over someone walking in the middle of the street.

Too many baggy pants, ebuddy?

It's so lengthy I had to stop here.
Maybe I'm just seeing what I want to see (and I say that with no sarcasm and snark), but the lynchpin of this problem is the direct linking of budgets and fining the population for criminal activity. It doesn't matter what color you throw in there, you're going to get the same result.
     
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Sep 6, 2014, 08:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Ok, here's the problem: The Blue Wall of Silence. Good cops don't report bad cops because the backlash tends to range from being ostracized to death. It's the police verso of "snitches get stitches." And the reason to post every story of police abuse and incompetence is because for everyone you catch how many are missed? Second, the only way to get attention and possibly reform is to highlight these incidents. It's called being pro-active.
I was getting the sense in this thread that a fallacious argument was being built up; "There are bad cops, therefore Wilson is probably guilty of being a bad cop".

Look, we've had a few cops fired and another few under review just from the protests. Is this somehow bad? Do you think they're being martyred? Are they victims of a stressful situation?
It's good that police are subjected to review and scrutiny. The only "martyrs" that I know of in the truer sense of the word are the 70 officers who've died in the line of duty so far this year. I'm of the mindset that if one chooses a highly stressful line of work, they need to understand and respect that going in. I do not consider them victims, but generally honorable.

Effective = no complaints? Because from what I recall Ferguson has no system in place where you can track any complaints made against officers (complaints were instead filed with the arrest).
AFAIK, Wilson is relatively new to the Ferguson PD and the lion's share of his service has been at the St Louis PD. Do they also not have any means of tracking complaints?

While one cannot say that an officer is effective merely because he's not gotten any complaints, I also don't think complaints equate to ineffective service -- offhand.

They instituted curfews, constantly dispersed crowds with tear gas, tried to disperse crowds ahead of curfews (getting earlier each day until they were doing so during daylight hours), and frequently claimed "You can't protest here."
From what I've read, the method was simply to keep them moving. The ne'er-do-wells were consistently fomenting their shenanigans from the cover of otherwise peaceful assembly. Gun play, rock-throwing, molotov cocktails, rioting, looting, and burning buildings to the ground will likely escalate police usage of tear gas, crowd dispersal, and other means of controlling an extremely volatile situation. I don't think anyone in the Ferguson police force set out in those days to infringe rights, but to try to protect the community from mayhem.

That contradicts the people's right to assemble will not be infringed.
The operative word you've excluded in the above provision is "peaceably"; "the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances". If there are bad actors seeking to exploit this provision by infiltrating assembly, that assembly will likely be controlled to ensure the peace for those attempting to peaceably assemble -- a way of protecting not only the community, but a means of ensuring the right was able to be exercised. People still marched, they still held their placards, they still chanted and maintained their right to convene in that area and petition their government for a redress of grievances.

The you're not paying attention. Most of the unsavory experiences seem to result from innocent people questioning the cops reasoning or authority. Like the father that was tasked in St. Louis earlier this year.
I don't know that you can say "most". Most people were able to peaceably assemble and march and chant. Some of the ones questioning cops' reasoning and authority may have been innocent, some may not have been. What should have been painfully apparent to anyone with two eyeballs was that an increasingly volatile and potentially dangerous situation was unfolding. I'm not going to act incensed that the police would usurp greater authority under mounting chaos to establish a necessary respect for their task at hand. There were examples where police crossed the line and were addressed. This is how it should be and you and I are in agreement on one measure of ensuring greater transparency going forward; cameras.

By the way, "don't break the law" is just a form of victim blaming someone who is on the receiving end of police brutality or abuse of authority.
I disagree. It's mathematically, sage advice for anyone hoping to attain adulthood without multiple run-ins with police aggression and a criminal record. Otherwise, what victim have I blamed in this affair?

It's not. Remember the black professor who was stopped by a cop on his own lawn? You think that wasn't about race? Or the alderman from St. Louis who was arrested and released without charges during the protests? What could they have done better?
I can't define such things. When is it not about race?

Try to form a personal connection with the community. That's exactly what that State Trooper did after the night of Ferguson tear gassing everyone in sight. He marched with the protestors, took photos with them, and was accessible. It completely defused the situation from the night before.
Until the night after that. I'm not opposed to a positive police presence within the community and in fact here locally have written my mayor to address growing tension in our minority communities this very way, but what I cannot do is assume that a cop leaves the precinct after a doughnut in the morning with the notion of catching or killing a minority or that they're bent on "targeting" minorities.

I suppose the short answer is, treat them like people, not potential criminals.
Do you have kids? Have you ever misjudged a person or situation? Are you infallible in your career? Would we find nothing, but the utmost professionalism and integrity from you on camera? You can say; "no, but then I didn't choose to be a cop", but that to me would be an intellectual copout. They're people too.

You see what you're saying, though? How is how I wear my pants justification for police harassment?
I never said wearing your pants a certain way is justification for police harassment, but even as humans we act under some semblance of a survival instinct and assessing the potentiality of danger. This factor has been expressed by none other than Sharpton himself. Let's say a liquor store was held up and you had to guess which in a lineup might be guilty of the crime. You have a guy with no arms, a guy with a button-down shirt, a guy in a three-piece suit, a middle-aged woman dressed sensibly, and a guy with gauges in his ears and pants sagging down to his knees. I can tell you that if you had spent any time or worked in the prison system where sagging originated out of the options available to inmates -- why that is a flag of sorts. You would likely choose the guy with gauges and saggy pants... and unfortunately you'd probably be correct.
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Sep 6, 2014, 11:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy
AFAIK, Wilson is relatively new to the Ferguson PD and the lion's share of his service has been at the St Louis PD.
As I mentioned earlier, Wilson cut his teeth as a police officer in the notorious Jennings PD. The department that was recently disbanded as a result of decades of racist behavior and corruption among its officers. He was never a member of the STL PD. See my post above.

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Sep 7, 2014, 08:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
As I mentioned earlier, Wilson cut his teeth as a police officer in the notorious Jennings PD. The department that was recently disbanded as a result of decades of racist behavior and corruption among its officers. He was never a member of the STL PD. See my post above.

OAW
My bad, OAW -- the point was the police force he was at fielded complaints from the public unlike what is being said of the Ferguson PD and there were no problems on Wilson's record.

I believe there were also two African-American officers released from duty in Jennings as well. Why? When you read this article of the disbanding, at the time, you see corruption as the lynch-pin for the disbanding. Notably, a joint federal-state investigation revelation that a Jennings police lieutenant had accepted federal money earmarked to pay for DWI checkpoint shifts that never happened. The chief at the time, who never got linked to the scandal, resigned. In November, Fuesting and his boss, Cpt. Troy Doyle of the North County Precinct, took over temporarily, and in March, the Jennings City Council voted 6 to 1 to disband the local police department and enter into a $2.8 million contract with St. Louis County.

Yes, there were complaints on record of strained relationships between the PD and the community, but the reason all were let go was due to rampant corruption. So what in reality was, DISBANDED DUE TO RAMPANT CORRUPTION and some reports of a strained relationship between the PD and the community becomes DISBANDED DUE TO RACISM and corruption when the narrative suits contemporaneous news.

How is it that the guilt-by-association litmus can apply to Wilson, but not to Brown? Lest we've forgotten that Johnson has a record of his own.

I've also yet to get an answer as to why, with all the gunplay going on at the time and Brown taking exactly 6 shots to the body; Johnson managed to miss them all? Was he Neo?
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Sep 8, 2014, 06:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I've also yet to get an answer as to why, with all the gunplay going on at the time and Brown taking exactly 6 shots to the body; Johnson managed to miss them all? Was he Neo?
As I said above ....

That has already been answered. Brown ran straight down the middle of the street. Johnson ran and hid behind a car on the side of the road. So by the time Wilson got out of the car and started shooting at Brown his friend Johnson was no longer in the line of fire.

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Sep 11, 2014, 11:12 AM
 
More witnesses have come forward. And it doesn't look good for Officer Wilson ....

Two men, shocked at what they saw, describe an unarmed teenager with his hands up in the air as he's gunned down by a police officer.

They were contractors doing construction work in Ferguson, Missouri, on the day Michael Brown was killed.


And the men, who asked not to be identified after CNN contacted them, said they were about 50 feet away from Officer Darren Wilson when he opened fire.

An exclusive cell phone video captures their reactions during the moments just after the shooting.

"He had his f**n hands up," one of the men says in the video.

The man told CNN he heard one gunshot, then another shot about 30 seconds later.

"The cop didn't say get on the ground. He just kept shooting," the man said.

That same witness described the gruesome scene, saying he saw Brown's "brains come out of his head," again stating, "his hands were up."

The video shows the man raising his arms in the air -- just as, he says, Brown was doing when he was shot.

The other contractor told CNN he saw Brown running away from a police car.

Brown "put his hands up," the construction worker said, and "the officer was chasing him."

The contractor says he saw Wilson fire a shot at Brown while his back was turned.
New Michael Brown shooting witnesses describe scene - CNN.com

They are telling the same story as all the other eyewitnesses! And as sad as it is to say in 2014 ... perhaps some of those who are so reluctant to lend any credibility to the original eyewitnesses may now do so because a couple of white guys have corroborated them.

OAW

PS: Follow the link and check out the video as well.
     
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Sep 11, 2014, 12:06 PM
 
None of us really know what happened, but I don't understand the biases that skew in disbelief. Is it really incomprehensible to process the notion that racial bias might have been a factor?

We are all biased, we all discriminate, because as human beings we recognize patterns, but the difference between a bigot and a non-bigot is that the non-bigot has the capacity to analyze and understand their own feelings and emotions enough to catch themselves when their mindset is prejudice (or sample size biased). In the heat of the moment like this, it is difficult to do this, which makes it all the more puzzling to me how some people don't want to confront the notion that maybe there were a lot of shitty reactions that took place by the cops, in this particular incident, at this particular time?
     
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Sep 11, 2014, 12:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I was getting the sense in this thread that a fallacious argument was being built up; "There are bad cops, therefore Wilson is probably guilty of being a bad cop".
No. I for one refuse to indict Wilson as a bad cop just because he was in that disbanded PD.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
It's good that police are subjected to review and scrutiny.
That's one of the key points of contention, though – it takes this kind of insane media presence to get the proper scrutiny – because they don't police from within.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
AFAIK, Wilson is relatively new to the Ferguson PD and the lion's share of his service has been at the St Louis PD. Do they also not have any means of tracking complaints?
Good point, something would likely have come out already.

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
While one cannot say that an officer is effective merely because he's not gotten any complaints, I also don't think complaints equate to ineffective service -- offhand.
Agreed.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
From what I've read, the method was simply to keep them moving. The ne'er-do-wells were consistently fomenting their shenanigans from the cover of otherwise peaceful assembly. Gun play, rock-throwing, molotov cocktails, rioting, looting, and burning buildings to the ground will likely escalate police usage of tear gas, crowd dispersal, and other means of controlling an extremely volatile situation. I don't think anyone in the Ferguson police force set out in those days to infringe rights, but to try to protect the community from mayhem.
The police are still in the wrong, no matter how "well-intentioned."

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I don't know that you can say "most". Most people were able to peaceably assemble and march and chant. Some of the ones questioning cops' reasoning and authority may have been innocent, some may not have been. What should have been painfully apparent to anyone with two eyeballs was that an increasingly volatile and potentially dangerous situation was unfolding. I'm not going to act incensed that the police would usurp greater authority under mounting chaos to establish a necessary respect for their task at hand. There were examples where police crossed the line and were addressed. This is how it should be and you and I are in agreement on one measure of ensuring greater transparency going forward; cameras.
This part wasn't about Ferguson, specifically. It was in response to your response about racism permeating policing in general.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I disagree. It's mathematically, sage advice for anyone hoping to attain adulthood without multiple run-ins with police aggression and a criminal record. Otherwise, what victim have I blamed in this affair?
You're not grasping the concept of victim blaming, then. I can rob a store and the police can beat the ever-living shit out of me to 'subdue' me, but just because I committed the first wrong, doesn't put me at fault for the police using excessive force when they had no reason to do so.



Until the night after that. I'm not opposed to a positive police presence within the community and in fact here locally have written my mayor to address growing tension in our minority communities this very way,

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
what I cannot do is assume that a cop leaves the precinct after a doughnut in the morning with the notion of catching or killing a minority or that they're bent on "targeting" minorities.
The former is carelessness – I value my life more than people who I think a likely criminal scum, hence I am more likely to use lethal force to preserve my life, regardless of circumstance.

The second is ridiculous – we already have cities like NYC admitting they target minorities.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Do you have kids? Have you ever misjudged a person or situation? Are you infallible in your career? Would we find nothing, but the utmost professionalism and integrity from you on camera? You can say; "no, but then I didn't choose to be a cop", but that to me would be an intellectual copout. They're people too.
It's not an intellectual cop-out. We hold certain professions to higher standards. Doctors, teachers, cops, military, god knows who else.

And like I said, things wouldn't be so bad if cops policed themselves. But they turn a blind eye to god-knows-what while losing their shit over people walking in the middle of the road.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I never said wearing your pants a certain way is justification for police harassment, but even as humans we act under some semblance of a survival instinct and assessing the potentiality of danger.
…and we also have the brains to realize that these assumptions have no place in fact and are worthless within the legal system. I get that we're human. My stance is this so called "survival instinct" has degraded to a lazy system of thoughtlessness and harassment.

Edit: BTW, good response.
     
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Sep 11, 2014, 12:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Let me put it this way; I will place more benefit of doubt on the guy with a 6-year track record of effective service having come off a call for someone's sick 2 year old child than I will a guy coming off a strong-arm robbery and posts of himself as a minor with a mouthful of cash, alcohol, and a handgun pointed at the camera.
Does this affect how much trust you put in the Ferguson PD?

Ferguson Police Chief Lied About Michael Brown Tape
When questioned by members of the press about the tape — which apparently had nothing to do with the fatal shooting of the unarmed teenager — Jackson told reporters that he was legally obligated to release the tape because members of the media had submitted an open records requests for it.

“We’ve had this tape for a while, and we had to diligently review the information that was in the tape, determine if there was any other reason to keep it,” Jackson said at the press event. “We got a lot of Freedom of Information requests for this tape, and at some point it was just determined we had to release it. We didn’t have good cause, any other reason not to release it under FOI.”
Last month, TheBlot Magazine requested a copy of all open records requests made by members of the public — including journalists and news organizations — that specifically sought the release of the convenience store surveillance video. The logs, which were itself obtained under Missouri’s open records law, show only one journalist — Joel Currier with the St. Louis Post-Dispatch — broadly requested any and all multimedia evidence “leading up to” Brown’s death on Aug. 9.

Other records that would have been subject to Currier’s request, including 9-1-1 call recordings and police dispatch tapes, have yet to be formally released by the agency.
Ferguson Police Chief Lied About Why He Released Alleged Michael Brown Robbery Tape: Report (UPDATED)
Currier told The Huffington Post's Matt Sledge in a tweet that "I can't recall if I knew of robbery at the time of request. I made it broad in hopes of getting as much material as possible."
Ferguson City Attorney Stephanie Karr released a statement early Saturday morning. She notes that many requests for documents and information were not made in writing because "the City's website and email were down at several points during that week." The release does not say whether any of those requests were for the robbery video.
By the date of August 15, the City having reached its statutory deadline to respond to the information requests, released the store robbery reports, including the surveillance video.
Hard to trust a police department led by a lying manipulative chief, who hand waves illegal arrests of journalists as his officers "not knowing any better."
     
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Sep 11, 2014, 12:44 PM
 
Ferguson residents demand 'justice for all' at city council meeting | MSNBC

The rancor overshadowed a slew of changes the council has proposed to municipal court code aimed at easing the burden of exorbitant fines and fees associated with warrants, arrests and court costs.

The city laid out the new proposal in a release issued Monday evening, including a warrant recall program and a plan to restructure the way it uses the fines and fees it collects from arrests. The city council is planning to draft a new ordinance that budgeted court fine revenues remain at or below 15% of the city’s revenue and that any excess revenue is earmarked for community projects. The funds are currently fed into Ferguson’s general purpose fund.

Other changes the Council said it will soon be introducing include an ordinance that would eliminate the common offense of failing to appear in court for minor offenses and the formation of a Citizens Review Board for the police department.

Another proposed ordinance would get rid of a number of administrative fees “which may impact low-income persons to a greater extent than others.” To that, the city is also looking to abolish various administrative and warrant fees.
Last year the city collected more than $2 million in such costs, its second highest revenue stream.
Before the meeting, lawyer Brendan Roediger, who has been working with local activists on proposals to present to city officials that include a warrant amnesty components, said the council changes might be made in good faith but in some aspects shouldn’t be applauded.

“Many of the warrant fees were illegal anyway,” Roediger said. “I’m not sure how much the council should be congratulated for reversing them.”

The real substantive change, he said, is the 15% cap on how much fine generated income could be added to the city’s general purpose fund.
Does this shit happen without the media attention? Spoiler alert: No.
     
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Sep 11, 2014, 01:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
More witnesses have come forward. And it doesn't look good for Officer Wilson ....
It's a been recent revelation – at least for me, but I heard there was Officer Wilson wasn't the only cop on the scene. Assuming this is true, I wonder why the other two cops didn't open fire, and if WIlson is in the wrong, I wonder if they'll testify against him.
     
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Sep 11, 2014, 01:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's a been recent revelation – at least for me, but I heard there was Officer Wilson wasn't the only cop on the scene. Assuming this is true, I wonder why the other two cops didn't open fire, and if WIlson is in the wrong, I wonder if they'll testify against him.
It is my understanding that the other two officers arrived shortly after the shooting.

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Sep 11, 2014, 01:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
It is my understanding that the other two officers arrived shortly after the shooting.

OAW
Word. Its hard to keep all the info flying around straight.
     
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Sep 11, 2014, 01:47 PM
 
Oh this is what I'm referring to:
AC360 Exclusive: Video recorded moments after the Michael Brown shooting – Anderson Cooper 360 - CNN.com Blogs
AC360 spoke to both men and they say Darren Wilson was not the only officer on the scene, there were two others. They even say that a second officer drew his weapon but did not pull the trigger.
Considering al the witnesses we've heard from before not mentioning this, seems doubtful.
     
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Sep 11, 2014, 04:40 PM
 
I still think they arrived shortly after the shooting and the second officer drew his weapon out of precaution. There had been an officer involved shooting and the crowd was already gathering due to how it all went down.

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Sep 12, 2014, 11:25 AM
 
Another reminder why Ferguson citizens have a dim view of their police force.
Woman shot during protest says police have yet to speak to her | KMOV.com St. Louis
A woman who was shot during the protests in Ferguson said police have still not contacted her.

Mya Aaten-White said she was walking down West Florissant August 12 when she was shot in the head. Aaten-White said she was walking back to her car when the shooting occurred.

Aaten-White said police have yet to speak to her about the incident. Her alma mater, Howard University, stepped in and appointed a lawyer, but the two were unable to schedule a meeting with police.
News 4 attempted to contact Ferguson police, but the department directed News 4 to a PR firm, the Devin-James Group. News 4 eventually obtained a police report. Devin James said the investigation in ongoing.
Aaten-White says it took some persistence to get police to respond to her gunshot wound to the head.

“We had to call 911 three times before we got a response vehicle there,” she said. “When they arrived, officers came with guns drawn. They questioned the homeowners about how long they’ve lived in the house; if it was under their name, and asked me what happened. I said ‘I was shot,’ obviously.’”
Not in the article, but the police did come by the hospital to retrieve the bullet, though I'm under impression they didn't even leave paperwork about it.
     
Clinically Insane
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Sep 12, 2014, 01:31 PM
 
Weren't the FPD and the STLCPD busy working the protests?

Likewise, wouldn't the FPD have already suffered a failure to exist by the time lawyers started calling?
     
Games Meister
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Sep 12, 2014, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Weren't the FPD and the STLCPD busy working the protests?
Does that explain all four weeks?

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Likewise, wouldn't the FPD have already suffered a failure to exist by the time lawyers started calling?
Huh?
     
Clinically Insane
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Sep 12, 2014, 01:38 PM
 
No. What explains the four weeks is a few days after this happened, the FPD was disbanded. There is no FPD to talk to.
     
Games Meister
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Sep 12, 2014, 01:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
No. What explains the four weeks is a few days after this happened, the FPD was disbanded. There is no FPD to talk to.
This is the first I've heard of this. Link?
     
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Sep 12, 2014, 01:55 PM
 
My total bad.

I think I conflated the FPD being taken off of protest duty as being more all encompassing.

Sorry.
     
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Sep 12, 2014, 02:01 PM
 
I think Ferguson's citizens would be out in the streets rejoicing if the PD were disbanded.
     
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Sep 12, 2014, 02:44 PM
 
When it (falsely) registered with me that was what happened, my thought process was "extreme... but probably a good idea".
     
OAW
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Sep 15, 2014, 01:58 PM
 
Yet another young black male shot from behind and killed while running away from the police:

Darrien Hunt, 22, was shot and killed Sept. 10 by police in Saratoga Springs, Utah, after they responded to a call of a "suspicious" man walking around a restaurant carrying a "Samurai-type sword." Witnesses say that once police arrived, Hunt took off running. Police say Hunt lunged at them with the sword.

Hunt's mother believes her son was shot to death because he was black.

"No white boy with a little sword would they shoot while he's running away," Susan Hunt, Darrien Hunt's mother, told the Deseret News.

It took three days for police to issue a statement about the death. According to the newspaper, police claimed in the brief statement issued Saturday that Hunt was coming toward officers when he was shot.

"When the officers made contact with Mr. Hunt, he brandished the sword and lunged toward the officers with the sword, at which time Mr. Hunt was shot," Utah County Chief Deputy Attorney Tim Taylor said in a prepared statement viewed by the Deseret News. "There is currently no indication that race played any role in the confrontation between Mr. Hunt and the police officers."

An attorney for Hunt's family claims that an independent autopsy shows that Hunt was "hit numerous times from behind."

"This is consistent with statements made by witnesses on the scene, who report that Darrien was shot to death while running away from police," Randall Edwards, the family's attorney, said in a statement. "It would appear difficult, if not impossible, to reconcile these facts with a story that Darrien was lunging toward the officers when he was shot."


According to the Deseret News, Hunt had been walking around "near Panda Express restaurant, a gas station, an auto parts store and a credit union" with the sword strapped to his back.

A photo of Hunt and the police just moments before he was shot shows the young man standing between the police but doesn't show the sword.

"I've been begging the police, 'Why, from the time I saw the pictures of you just standing by him with his hands to his side, does he end up seconds later with a bullet in him? And then if he's running [according to eyewitnesses], why you had to put in more bullets, and I don't even know how many.' That's what I want to know," Susan Hunt told the Deseret News.

Hunt's mother told the newspaper that the sword was purchased at a gift shop and that it couldn't cut anything. She believes that Hunt might have been looking for a job, since he wore a nice shirt the last day she saw him.

"I believe that maybe my son thought, 'Maybe I'll try to get a job at Panda; maybe this sword will impress them,' " she told the newspaper. "[He probably] thought he was cool with the sword. He was more of a little kid trying to be a teenager."
Darrien Hunt: Mom Believes Her Son Was Shot by Police Because He Was Black - The Root

Typical BS story from the cops.

OAW
     
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Sep 15, 2014, 02:09 PM
 
Holy shit. I read his mother's comments - "little kid trying to be a teenager", "this sword would impress them", "[probably] thought it was cool"......and then I had to scroll up to the top again to find out that I was not mistaken, he was not actually 12, but in fact 22 years old.

Whatever else you want to make of what was surely an unfortunate and possibly racially charged situation, it is people like that mother that sometimes make me want to reach out and strangle somebody.
     
OAW
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Sep 15, 2014, 02:17 PM
 
I predicted earlier in the thread that Officer Wilson would likely not be indicted given STL County Prosecutor Bob McCullogh's notorious pro-police bias. It would appear that the national media is starting to see just how his little games work around here ...

Originally Posted by Dana Milbank
What happened in Ferguson, Mo., last month was a tragedy. What’s on course to happen there next month will be a farce.

October is when a grand jury is expected to decide whether to indict the white police officer, Darren Wilson, who killed an unarmed black teenager by firing at least six bullets into him. It’s a good bet the grand jurors won’t charge him, because all signs indicate that the St. Louis County prosecutor, Robert McCulloch, doesn’t want them to.

The latest evidence that the fix is in came this week from The Post’s Kimberly Kindy and Carol Leonnig, who discovered that McCulloch’s office has declined so far to recommend any charges to the grand jury. Instead, McCulloch’s prosecutors handling the case are taking the highly unusual course of dumping all evidence on the jurors and leaving them to make sense of it.


McCulloch’s office claims that this is a way to give more authority to the grand jurors, but it looks more like a way to avoid charging Wilson at all — and to use the grand jury as cover for the outrage that will ensue. It is often said that a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich if a prosecutor asks it to. But the opposite is also true. A grand jury is less likely to deliver an indictment — even a much deserved one — if a prosecutor doesn’t ask for it.

One might give McCulloch the benefit of the doubt, if not for his background. His father was a police officer killed in a shootout with a black suspect, and several of his family members are, or were, police officers. His 23-year record on the job reveals scant interest in prosecuting such cases. During his tenure, there have been at least a dozen fatal shootings by police in his jurisdiction (the roughly 90 municipalities in the county other than St. Louis itself), and probably many more than that, but McCulloch’s office has not prosecuted a single police shooting in all those years. At least four times he presented evidence to a grand jury but — wouldn’t you know it? — didn’t get an indictment.

One of the four: A 2000 case in which a grand jury declined to indict two police officers who had shot two unarmed black men 21 times while they sat in their car behind a Jack in the Box fast-food restaurant. It was a botched drug arrest, and one of the two men killed hadn’t even been a suspect. McCulloch at the time said he agreed with the grand jury’s decision, dismissing complaints of the handling of the case by saying the dead men “were bums.” He refused to release surveillance tapes of the shooting. When those tapes were later released as part of a federal probe, it was discovered that, contrary to what police alleged, the car had not moved before the police began shooting.

McCulloch apparently hasn’t learned from that. His spokesman, asked by The Post’s Wesley Lowery about those remarks, said the slain men “should have been described as ‘convicted felons’ rather than ‘bums.’ ”

Lowery gained national attention last month when he was unjustly detained by Ferguson’s out-of-control police while covering the demonstrations. He has since asked McCulloch’s office for a list of cases in which prosecutors pursued charges against a law enforcement official. McCulloch’s office ultimately came up with only one case over 23 years that The Post could verify of the prosecution of a white officer for using inappropriate force against a black victim, and it wasn’t a shooting.

But if McCulloch lacks credibility, he apparently has political clout. This could explain why Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon — like McCulloch, a Democrat — is refusing to appoint a special prosecutor. This could also explain Democratic Sen. Claire McCaskill’s statement in support of McCulloch.

Proving a case of excessive force against a police officer is difficult, and I’m not in any position to determine Wilson’s guilt. But that doesn’t justify declining to prosecute such cases. There’s no dispute that Brown ran away after Wilson shot him in a scuffle and that Wilson shot Brown several more times after that. Several witnesses — including those in a newly discovered video showing the immediate aftermath of the shooting — claim that Brown had his hands up in surrender. The alternative account offered by Wilson — Brown charged at him — requires us to believe that the unarmed and wounded man ran away, reconsidered and ran back toward the man pointing a gun at him.

And McCulloch won’t have his prosecutors recommend even involuntary manslaughter? If he persists and if the governor won’t intervene, their behavior will confirm suspicions that justice is rigged.
Ferguson tragedy becoming a farce - The Washington Post

OAW
     
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Sep 15, 2014, 03:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I predicted earlier in the thread that Officer Wilson would likely not be indicted given STL County Prosecutor Bob McCullogh's notorious pro-police bias. It would appear that the national media is starting to see just how his little games work around here ...



Ferguson tragedy becoming a farce - The Washington Post

OAW
You will always see bias where you want to OAW. That article is just more vitriolic fuel to a fire that the news media profits from immensely. It presents opinion as fact and fails to consider any outcome that does not involve the officer getting lynched.

Did the police mishandle the situation from the get-go? Yes, But I have a problem with breaking out the pitchforks for the officer involved because:

A) Consider the mindset of the "victim" only minutes removed from robbing a convenient store. Yes, the police did not know it was him when they first approached him, but he had no way of knowing they were clueless. So you have this dude who just committed a felony getting stopped by police, and it's out of the realm of possibility for you that he violently resisted the police approaching him? Sorry boss, but I find it more likely that he did infact assault the officer and ended up dead for his trouble.

B) The real problem here was the way the police handled the public's response before the facts had come out. And I'm not surprised, because the police in general should not have the kind of power that we as a society are increasingly handing over to them. Every issue raised from allegations of racial bias to ineptitude to the police's role in our everyday lives can be avoided by removing the potential for those situations to arise in the first place.

IMO, the police should not have access to any (lethal) weapons the general public does not have access to. SWAT should be handled by national guard units completely separated from the police chain of command and should be trained, armed, and called in appropriately. The police are mired in too much politics to be trusted with weapons and tactics that the general public are not. Police are supposed to be the peace keepers ingrained as a part of the community, not soldiers. We've started to blur that line and this is what happens when that line gets blurred. Police should be able to call for SWAT, to use SWAT in situations where it's warranted, and to answer to the public for the decisions they make. SWAT soldiers, however, should not be the same guys walking the beat. It's a different mindset (peacekeeper vs soldier) and until we as a society wake up to this fact these types of events will happen with increasing frequency. You can scream racism til the cows come home and you can even succeed in crucifying your targets with hatred and vitriol, but you still will not have addressed the root cause of the problem and as such, will not have prevented this type of tragedy from happening in the future.
     
 
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