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Police discrimination, misconduct, Ferguson, MO, the Roman Legion, and now math??? (Page 8)
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Sep 23, 2014, 07:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by stumblinmike View Post
Yea, and one of the poles is burnt, and the other one...oh, never mind
Not quite sure what you're trying to get at?
     
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Sep 23, 2014, 09:31 PM
 
You don't take many pictures...same pole, different camera angle!
     
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Sep 23, 2014, 10:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Is it possible someone put a candle there and it went up? Or are we sure this was malicious vandalism?
It's possible. But to my knowledge there haven't been any lit candles lately. Just flowers and stuffs animals. So we shall see.

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Sep 24, 2014, 09:10 AM
 
Maybe Al Sharpton set it to stir up more riots?
     
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Sep 24, 2014, 12:53 PM
 
I must admit, my first thought was an agent provocateur.
     
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Sep 24, 2014, 01:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I must admit, my first thought was an agent provocateur.
It seems classy when you put it that way.
     
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Sep 24, 2014, 02:30 PM
 
Same here, it's the logical assumption when you consider, "who would benefit the most from this?"
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Sep 24, 2014, 02:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Same here, it's the logical assumption when you consider, "who would benefit the most from this?"
Good lord, I guess this will be the new defense when bad things happen to minority groups.

I guess all those looters were police plants by that logic.
     
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Sep 24, 2014, 03:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by stumblinmike View Post
You don't take many pictures...same pole, different camera angle!
And the sidewalk?
     
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Sep 24, 2014, 03:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
And the sidewalk?
It's back there. The height of the pile obscures it. (IMO)
     
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Sep 24, 2014, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's back there. The height of the pile obscures it. (IMO)
You'd be able to see it on the left hand side then. :shrug:

Just saying....before we break out the pitchforks.
     
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Sep 24, 2014, 03:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
You'd be able to see it on the left hand side then. :shrug:
I do see it. The quality of the photo isn't very good though.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Just saying....before we break out the pitchforks.
We'll we're not really breaking them out anyone other than anonymous assholes.
     
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Sep 24, 2014, 03:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Good lord, I guess this will be the new defense when bad things happen to minority groups.

I guess all those looters were police plants by that logic.
It's a risk-reward analysis.

If the looters were somehow not getting any loot, it would throw up the same red flag. Why take the risk for no reward? As it stands, the looters were rewarded with loot, so no red flag.

The reward for this is the pleasure of having done it. That's a pretty big risk-reward gap. Big enough a gap it's notable how much smaller the gap is for an agent provocateur.
     
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Sep 24, 2014, 03:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
It's a risk-reward analysis.
Counter-point: Racists and contrarian idiots don't do such a thing.
     
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Sep 24, 2014, 03:57 PM
 
Agreed.
     
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Sep 24, 2014, 05:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I must admit, my first thought was an agent provocateur.
From local residents ...

Terrell Marshall, of Ferguson, said nothing was amiss when he drove past at 5 a.m., but when he drove by again at 6 a.m., the memorial was fully engulfed.

Markese Mull, 39, who lives in the nearby Canfield Green apartments, said several police cars arrived around 6:45 a.m., and “one cop got out and tried to stomp it out.”

Eventually, Ferguson firefighters doused the flames.

By 8 a.m., the collection of stuffed animals, baseball caps, Michael Brown posters, apparel, votive candle jars and dead flowers was reduced to a heap of ashes.

For weeks after the shooting of Brown by Ferguson police Officer Darren Wilson, burning candles have been part of the memorials. Empty, overturned votive candle jars were lying next to the burn site. Pools of melted wax had hardened around the shrines.

But Whitt and others angrily discounted the possibility that a tipped-over candle was to blame. “There is no way a candle did this; someone used gasoline,” Whitt said.

Others said they had smelled gasoline while the fire was burning.
Ferguson residents rebuild Michael Brown memorial after fire : News

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Sep 24, 2014, 08:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Good lord, I guess this will be the new defense when bad things happen to minority groups.

I guess all those looters were police plants by that logic.
The looters are opportunistic assholes, people often loot in bad situations, it's human nature (as evidenced by nearly every natural disaster in human history).

I wouldn't doubt that someone would torch the memorial to ratchet things up a couple notches, it goes with the looting thing, oftentimes people just suck.
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Sep 25, 2014, 08:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
The looters are opportunistic assholes, people often loot in bad situations, it's human nature (as evidenced by nearly every natural disaster in human history).
Right, but who had the most to gain form it? The police. (No, I don't think they were police plants).

You guys seem to replacing Occam's Razor with Occam's cost-benefit analysis.
     
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Sep 25, 2014, 09:37 AM
 
How? All the looting and general mayhem simply makes the police look worse, like they can't do their jobs. Looting benefits the looters, not the LEOs who are supposed to be stopping them.
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Sep 25, 2014, 09:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
How? All the looting and general mayhem simply makes the police look worse, like they can't do their jobs.
They use the theft and violence to clamp down, tear-gas everybody, declare a curfew, restrict people's movements and try to keep everyone from protesting in general.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Looting benefits the looters, not the LEOs who are supposed to be stopping them.
Look at the narrative from people in this very forum though – they didn't think the cops were doing a crappy job, they thought the citizens were using the death as an excuse to get 'free stuff.' It's sickening.
     
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Sep 25, 2014, 10:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
They use the theft and violence to clamp down, tear-gas everybody, declare a curfew, restrict people's movements and try to keep everyone from protesting in general.

Look at the narrative from people in this very forum though – they didn't think the cops were doing a crappy job, they thought the citizens were using the death as an excuse to get 'free stuff.' It's sickening.
People did use the incident as an excuse to loot and "get free stuff", it's always the case during disasters, natural or otherwise. That is what's sickening. Did you see all the footage of people doing just that during Katrina and the LA riots? Police don't want to do all that shit (ie. tear-gas everybody, declare a curfew, restrict people's movements), most just want to hang out and punch their time, it's a job. Likewise, burning the memorial creates even MORE work for them.
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Sep 25, 2014, 10:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
People did use the incident as an excuse to loot and "get free stuff", it's always the case during disasters, natural or otherwise. That is what's sickening.
I said citizens, and there's a big difference. People are claiming the outraged locals are doing the lotting, not opportunistic out-of-towners (which many arrests showed to be the case).

They also conveniently ignore that groups of Ferguson citizens started forming rings around stores to prevent looting.
     
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Sep 25, 2014, 12:13 PM
 
Ferguson chief apologizes to Michael Brown's parents - CNN.com
Ferguson, Missouri, Police Chief Thomas Jackson apologized Thursday to the parents of Michael Brown, as well as to any peaceful protesters who feel he didn't do "enough to protect their constitutional right to protest."
It's a bit late for damage control.
     
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Sep 25, 2014, 12:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Look at the narrative from people in this very forum though – they didn't think the cops were doing a crappy job, they thought the citizens were using the death as an excuse to get 'free stuff.' It's sickening.
Who thought the cops were doing a good job?
     
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Sep 25, 2014, 12:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Who thought the cops were doing a good job?
I didn't say good job, I said not a crappy job. There was victim blaming the protesters for how the cops handled them.
     
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Sep 25, 2014, 12:19 PM
 
Sorry... I wasn't trying to alter your statement.

Who was blaming protesters?
     
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Sep 25, 2014, 12:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So I guess common sense like STAYING OFF THE STREETS didn't occur to these demonstrators? Boo-Hoo on getting tear gassed. Looters should have been shot too. Remove the violent in our society. So, now they've gotten rid of those stores by looting them. How much further must they go to shop? Looks like their emotional outburst are hurting them too.
...
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Move along, nothing to see here. (Black cop, dead white kid)

It looks like they missed a great opportunity to loot and pillage.
     
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Sep 25, 2014, 12:38 PM
 
You think this Walmart situation is ridiculous? This one is even more ridiculous ... though it definitely had a better outcome since the unarmed black guy wasn't killed and the white trooper with the itchy trigger finger was fired. Here's the story ...

The black guy is driving and removes his seat belt right as he's about to pull up onto a Circle K parking lot. A white South Carolina highway trooper decides to pull him over for a seat belt violation. Which is some BS in and of itself. Because while that may be "technically" a violation since the car was still moving the guy was seconds away from parking ... so don't be an asshole dude. Like seriously. In any event, the black guy steps out of his car to go inside the store. The white trooper pulls up, gets out and says "Can I see your license please?" So the black guy turns around and reaches inside his vehicle for it. AS HE WAS INSTRUCTED TO DO! And immediately the white trooper approaches yelling "Get out of the car!" .... fires 4 shots in total ... hitting the black guy once in the hip on the second shot ... the last two shots fired while the black guy's hands were in the air and he was backing away. Sound familiar? Oh and did I mention that this guy was a former "Trooper of the Year'?

The immediate aftermath ...

Levar Jones: I just got my license. You said get my license. I grabbed my license right there. That's my license.

Officer Groubert: Put your hands behind your back! Put your hands behind your back!

Levar Jones: What did I do?

Officer Groubert: Put your hands behind your back! :::: Jones complies :::::

Levar Jones: What did I do sir?

Officer Groubert: Are you hit?

Levar Jones: I think so. I can't feel my leg. I don't know what happened I just grabbed my license.

:::: Officer Groubert calls dispatch for assistance :::::

Levar Jones: Why did you ... why did you shoot me?

Officer Groubert: Well you dove head first back into your car.
Which is utter and complete BS! Just look at the video for yourself. The guy just turns around and leans into the car to reach for his license. As requested by the officer!

"The [defense] attorney said Jones reached for it aggressively and Trooper Groubert thought he was reaching for a gun."
Sound familiar?

Presumably Mr. Jones at some point asks why he was stopped ....

Officer Groubert: A seat belt violation sir.

Levar Jones: A seat belt? I just pulled it off right there at the corner to pull into the gas station! Ahhhh!!!! :::: in pain ::::

Officer Groubert: Well I got help coming to you ok? I got help coming to you.
South Carolina trooper shot unarmed man, police say - CNN.com

Do I think Trooper Groubert is a Klan member or some sort of skinhead? Nope.

Do I think Trooper Groubert set out to just shoot a random black guy for no apparent reason that day? Nope.

Do I think Trooper Groubert perhaps harbors subconscious biases that leads him to view black men as "threatening" and to interpret innocuous actions on their part as "aggressive"? Hell yeah!!!

Do I think Trooper Groubert would have shot a white guy for leaning into a car in the same manner to reach for a license per his own request? Hell no!!!

In the African-American community young males are often given explicit instructions on how to interact with the police. I know I've done it with my own son. It basically goes like this ...

1. Avoid any unnecessary contact with the police because any encounter with them runs a significant risk of you ending up hurt or dead. This means A) keeping your nose clean, B) staying away from drugs and crime, and C) no traffic violations when driving.

2. NEVER ride in a car with more than 2 young black males at the same time. AVOID predominantly white neighborhoods if possible, especially at night. ABSOLUTELY DO NOT ride in a car with a young white girl(s) and no adults. Because these are things that WILL get you stopped at some point. And if you are in a car and someone spots a cop, NO ONE else in the car can turn around and look. We call the police "One Time" for a reason. Because if a cop spots the occupants of a car looking back at him more than "one time" he is more likely to pull you over.

3. If you do get stopped by the police you NEVER run away. There is no arguing, talking back, or popping off attitude. It is "Yes sir.", "No sir." ... or "Yes Officer", "No Officer". ALWAYS keep your hands where he can see them, NEVER make any sudden moves, and COMPLY with the officer's instructions.

4. If the cops are messing with you on some BS it is your job to get out of the situation in one piece. And then it will be my job to deal with that later through legal channels.
Mr. Jones followed all the rules in this situation and he STILL ended up shot. Which is a sad commentary on law enforcement in this country. Because unfortunately the "Black Man's Guide for Dealing with the Police" doesn't guarantee no harm will come your way at the hands of cops ... it only increases your odds. And what makes this situation even worse are all the oh-so-typical comments all over the internet ... predominantly from those on the right side of the political spectrum ... just bending over backwards trying to justify this trooper's actions.

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( Last edited by OAW; Sep 25, 2014 at 01:45 PM. )
     
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Sep 25, 2014, 12:44 PM
 
I'm guessing the officer thought he'd pull out his wallet and panicked.

But seriously, a seat belt violation? Running a little low on quota?
     
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Sep 25, 2014, 12:52 PM
 
It sounds like he didn't follow number 3: keep your hands where they can see them.

FWIW, I was taught this as a white guy. You get pulled over, use the time before the officer walks over to get out your wallet and put it on the dash, so when it's asked for, you don't need to reach where the officer can't see. Hands on the wheel at 10 and 2 otherwise. Engine off, natch.

If I was asked to provide my license and I had to reach into the car, I'd tell the officer that's what needs to be done, ask if they're comfortable with that, and if not, ask what needs to happen to make them comfortable.


Not trying to justify the shooting, just noting how that lesson crosses the racial divide, and he didn't really follow it.
     
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Sep 25, 2014, 12:55 PM
 
^^^^^



I relayed the gist of what happened here but I encourage you to follow the link and view the video for yourself so you can see how it all went down. It's just NUTS!! The even CRAZIER part is that chances are this trooper will not be convicted of any crime. Because the sad reality is that if the defense can get enough white people on the jury the "Jones reached for it [license] aggressively and Trooper Groubert thought he was reaching for a gun" defense will fly. For a mistrial at least. Because A) so many of them harbor those same subconscious biases against black males, and B) so many of them are raised to think of the police as "Officer Friendly" and for the most part that's true for them.

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Sep 25, 2014, 12:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
It sounds like he didn't follow number 3: keep your hands where they can see them.
Yeah, I'd say most people hear this at some point. But quite honestly, it's hard to remember in the moment, particularly if you don't get pulled over often (so I guess black people have no excuse after all, yuk, yuk)
     
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Sep 25, 2014, 01:17 PM
 
I don't blame the cop for thinking he could be going for a gun, and the guy who got shot made another huge mistake by getting out of his vehicle.

That said, the mistake for which I assign culpability is the officer not ordering the guy back into his car. Had he simply followed basic procedure and took control of the situation before engaging, none of this would have happened.
     
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Sep 25, 2014, 01:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Yeah, I'd say most people hear this at some point. But quite honestly, it's hard to remember in the moment, particularly if you don't get pulled over often (so I guess black people have no excuse after all, yuk, yuk)
And looking at the tape with full knowledge of the situation, I read an attempt to be helpful on the part of the guy.

"License? I can get that! [Hops to it]"
     
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Sep 25, 2014, 01:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I don't blame the cop for thinking he could be going for a gun,
Huh? The cop ASKED HIM to see his license. The question is if the cop does that and the guy turns around and reaches inside his car then why is the first thing that pops into the officer's mind NOT that he was reaching for his license AS INSTRUCTED? Why immediately think he's reaching for a GUN?

Originally Posted by subego View Post
and the guy who got shot made another huge mistake by getting out of his vehicle. That said, the mistake for which I assign culpability is the officer not ordering the guy back into his car. Had he simply followed basic procedure and took control of the situation before engaging, none of this would have happened.
Bear in mind that the officer didn't pull Mr. Jones over. As the article stated "Police said Groubert, 31, stopped Jones in the parking lot of a Circle K station in daylight, for what police say was an alleged seat belt violation, around 5 p.m." So Jone didn't exit the vehicle after being pulled over without instruction from the officer. He was already exiting the vehicle when the officer first approached him on the parking lot.

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Sep 25, 2014, 01:47 PM
 
That ultimately changes the situation very little.

Most people carry their license on their person. I'm sure the officer expected him to keep walking away from the vehicle.

The main point however still stands. Since the guy was so close to the vehicle, and the whole point was a seatbelt violation, the cop made a huge mistake by not ordering him back into the car.
     
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Sep 25, 2014, 01:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Yeah, I'd say most people hear this at some point. But quite honestly, it's hard to remember in the moment, particularly if you don't get pulled over often (so I guess black people have no excuse after all, yuk, yuk)
Yeah there's nothing specific about #3 or even #4 for black people. It's the first part of #1 and pretty much all of #2 that falls into that category.

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Sep 25, 2014, 01:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
That ultimately changes the situation very little.

Most people carry their license on their person. I'm sure the officer expected him to keep walking away from the vehicle.
Tell that to my wife! Most people may carry it on their person but plenty of people keep it in the glove box or center console. But here is the crusher IMO ... let's say for the sake of discussion that Jones did have his license on his person and he simply reached for it in his back pocket? When dealing with a cop with an itchy trigger finger ... and perhaps also harboring those subconscious biases I spoke of earlier ... why would he NOT think he was reaching for a gun in that scenario as well? It's not like brothers don't catch a bullet reaching for their wallet. Amadou Diallo anyone?

Originally Posted by subego View Post
The main point however still stands. Since the guy was so close to the vehicle, and the whole point was a seatbelt violation, the cop made a huge mistake by not ordering him back into the car.
That may have certainly helped the situation. Or better yet, how about not pulling the guy over because he took his seatbelt off moments before pulling onto a gas station parking light in the first place? You mean to tell me he didn't have bigger fish to fry?

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Sep 25, 2014, 06:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Most people carry their license on their person. I'm sure the officer expected him to keep walking away from the vehicle.
No, I don't think most people do: I always take my wallet out of my pocket and put it in my backpack. And women usually keep their wallet in their purse. I don't think it's a normal reaction of a cop to start shooting if someone does something really expected, the cop is not patrolling in an active war zone.
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Sep 26, 2014, 08:54 AM
 
     
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Sep 26, 2014, 11:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
No, I don't think most people do: I always take my wallet out of my pocket and put it in my backpack. And women usually keep their wallet in their purse. I don't think it's a normal reaction of a cop to start shooting if someone does something really expected, the cop is not patrolling in an active war zone.
Should I focus on the technical accuracy of your statement about where women keep their wallets, or focus on how relevant it is in the context of a guy getting shot?
     
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Sep 26, 2014, 12:02 PM
 
So, start with the screening of potential cops. Hire better, smarter people as your HR dept. Let it take weeks to screen the potential cops. of course, this should also be done for teachers, and anyone who would be paid by our tax dollars. Re-screening of cops every 3-5 years also might be a good idea.

What can you do to reduce the violence from the ghetto populace? Education? LOL!
The problem still exists of a portion of the populace that too easily over-reacts in a violent way.
     
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Sep 26, 2014, 03:05 PM
 
Another person going all-in on Ferguson.
Ferguson Caught Lying to Cover-Up Records - Photography is Not a Crime: PINAC

I read a good part of the beginning but its really long and in depth. Much of it rests on legal mechanisms that I would need to verify, but the underlying accusation seems legit enough.
I will focus here on one of the two lies: the false claim that because of the Department of Justice’s investigation the City could not release police records.

The second lie, that the City could not provide the videos from their newly donated body cameras will only be touched upon here. The City falsely claimed that because a “General Order” of the Department – an internal policy – existed prohibiting their release, the videos could not be provided under the state public records law.



The lies in a nutshell: (1) The Department of Justice has not taken possession of the original records of the Ferguson Police Department and there is nothing about the Department of Justice investigation that precludes or prohibits the City from releasing those records in compliance with the state’s public records law.

And (2) there is no General Order, or policy, in existence by the Ferguson Police Department on the use of officer cameras or the release of the videos.
     
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Sep 26, 2014, 03:47 PM
 
That site crushes mobile Safari.
     
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Sep 26, 2014, 06:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Should I focus on the technical accuracy of your statement about where women keep their wallets, or focus on how relevant it is in the context of a guy getting shot?
It also applies to many, many men I know (including myself). When I sit, I take my wallet out of my back pocket. So how isn't what I wrote relevant?
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Sep 27, 2014, 12:41 AM
 
Do most men do that?

When they're at a gas station?
     
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Sep 27, 2014, 08:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Do most men do that?
What are we discussing here, statistics? I say 42 % and you say 27 %? My only point here is that storing your wallet outside of your pocket is not unusual. For a cop to start shooting without warning is inexcusable in that situation. Even to pull a gun is just crazy and escalates.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
When they're at a gas station?
As I said, among me and my friends: yes, many do keep their wallet in a backpack or bag even when they pull up to a gas station. I'm not making any claims about percentages either.
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Sep 27, 2014, 09:20 AM
 
Quickly reaching into your car will stir-up any LEO, including me. I probably would have drawn my weapon in that situation (I don't perform traffic stops), but I wouldn't have fired unless I had visual confirmation of a firearm. The investigation handled this incident properly.
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Sep 27, 2014, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
What are we discussing here, statistics? I say 42 % and you say 27 %? My only point here is that storing your wallet outside of your pocket is not unusual. For a cop to start shooting without warning is inexcusable in that situation. Even to pull a gun is just crazy and escalates.

As I said, among me and my friends: yes, many do keep their wallet in a backpack or bag even when they pull up to a gas station. I'm not making any claims about percentages either.
Ultimately, we are discussing statistics. Whether going back into the car to get your wallet is considered usual or not is going to directly correlate with the incidence of males, at a gas station, not at a pump, leaving their car without their wallet... whether it be in their pocket, backpack, bag, or man-purse.

I'm saying this incidence is low.
     
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Sep 27, 2014, 05:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Quickly reaching into your car will stir-up any LEO, including me. I probably would have drawn my weapon in that situation (I don't perform traffic stops), but I wouldn't have fired unless I had visual confirmation of a firearm. The investigation handled this incident properly.
And this is why I'm somewhat sympathetic to the officer.

Part of the cop job description is "expect people to try and kill you". Not "it may happen", but "expect it".

Was this a colossal ****up? No question. I have trouble throwing my stones too hard because I've been known to **** things up before.
     
 
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