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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Trump's Muslim Ban: The Shitshow has begun

Trump's Muslim Ban: The Shitshow has begun
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Games Meister
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Jan 29, 2017, 01:58 PM
 
Rudy Giuliani says on Fox that Trump called him and said, "I want to do a #MuslimBan. How do I do it legally?"
That's a fantastic premise.

Conway cites San Bernardino, Orlando and Boston attackers to defend EO. None of them would have been stopped by current ban.
Genius.



The shitshow then began almost immediately as they moved to enforce the ban on people just arriving in airports. People who have already been vetted or granted visas. People who are going to college here and had been visiting family during the holidays.

Naturally they're denied access to their lawyers.

Thankfully the ACLU was on the case and went to court and got a stay for a small percentage of people, but it's still murky to me whether its being honored.

https://twitter.com/DamonSilvers/sta...47937066115072
Attys at Dulles with a fed court order entitling them to see detainees told by CBP "it's not going to happen" Attys seeking contempt order
Meanwhile we have the German Chancellor giving civics lessons on the Geneva Conventions to our President.

Oh, and I'm curious whether preferring refugees based on religion is legal.
     
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Jan 29, 2017, 02:10 PM
 
Time to donate again.
     
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Jan 29, 2017, 06:32 PM
 
My partners cousin is a Syrian. She has lived and worked in New York for 30 years as a paediatric consultant. She doesn't look Syrian, because she is of Polish descent. Her family where refugees from Poland after WW2 and were settled in Syria, where she was born, grew up and married.
She is currently stuck, unable to visit her family because she will no longer be allowed back into the country she has lived and worked in for 30 years.
She feels a certain amount of historical irony about this situation.
Honestly America, you need to do better than this. Even if the ban on refugees was a good idea (which it isn't) surely the monumental amount of stupidity and lack of any kind of thought given to the implementation of this should have people considering the future with some fright.
     
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Jan 29, 2017, 06:40 PM
 
The order also applies to Germans of Iranian descent, most of which fled the mullahs in the 1980s because they were secular or moderate. Big win keeping them out of the US.
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Jan 29, 2017, 06:50 PM
 
90 days until a better vetting process is in place, so what? People are acting like this is permanent and it certainly isn't.
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Jan 29, 2017, 10:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
90 days until a better vetting process is in place, so what? People are acting like this is permanent and it certainly isn't.
Are you serious? Tell that to the completely innocent people currently in total limbo for absolutely no good reason: no way to prepare, no way to vet.

There can be absolutely no defending this move. This is absolute and utter stupidity. Even if one accepts the premise that some sort of ban should be put in place, this is a complete and utter **** up of an implementation.
     
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Jan 29, 2017, 10:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
Are you serious? Tell that to the completely innocent people currently in total limbo for absolutely no good reason: no way to prepare, no way to vet.

There can be absolutely no defending this move. This is absolute and utter stupidity. Even if one accepts the premise that some sort of ban should be put in place, this is a complete and utter **** up of an implementation.
Sounds a lot like the no fly list.
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Jan 29, 2017, 11:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
90 days until a better vetting process is in place, so what? People are acting like this is permanent and it certainly isn't.
It shows a lack of focus on priorities, for one, as well as thoughtfulness into how to implement meaningful and effective policy. This accomplishes nothing positive, and if Obama did this you would be having a field day.
     
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Jan 30, 2017, 12:09 AM
 
     
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Jan 30, 2017, 12:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Sounds a lot like the no fly list.
Only that's permanent, good luck getting off that.
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Jan 30, 2017, 12:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
if Obama did this you would be having a field day.
No, I'm not a crazy regressive.
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Jan 30, 2017, 12:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Only that's permanent, good luck getting off that.
I can't believe you don't see a big difference towards a blacklist based on intelligence on a case-by-case basis vs. a blanket ban impacting many completely innocent and harmless people, as blanket bans do.

Are you just trying to be provocative or do you really believe this shit?
     
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Jan 30, 2017, 12:47 AM
 
There's very little "intelligence" behind the No Fly list, or its implementation:
Sen. Ted Kennedy told the Senate Judiciary Committee in 2004 that he had been stopped and interrogated on at least five occasions as he attempted to board flights at several different airports. A Bush administration official explained to the Washington Post that Kennedy had been held up because the name "T. Kennedy" had become a popular pseudonym among terror suspects.
No-fly list nightmares: The program's most embarrassing mistakes - CNNPolitics.com

No, I don't agree WRT existing visa holders, I think that's absurd, but I'm not losing my shit and running to the nearest airport to throw a tantrum, either. That part was fixed, straightway.
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Jan 30, 2017, 12:57 AM
 
Sen. Ted Kennedy told the Senate Judiciary Committee in 2004 that he had been stopped and interrogated on at least five occasions as he attempted to board flights at several different airports. A Bush administration official explained to the Washington Post that Kennedy had been held up because the name "T. Kennedy" had become a popular pseudonym among terror suspects.
OT. I'd never thought of this solution to the No Fly List problems. Sounds efficient.

Guys & gals, should you ever board a plane on a terrorist mission. Please use the pseudonym of a Congress person who supports the No Fly List. It'll get fixed in no time. Afterwards we will remember and honor your member name here for years to come. RIP
     
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Jan 30, 2017, 05:07 AM
 
Coincidentally, what's the difference between Germany blocking Scientologists from entering their country and the USA blocking Muslims?
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Jan 30, 2017, 05:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
That was from prior to the election.
On Trump presidency, Pope says we must 'wait and see' :: Catholic News Agency (CNA)
Yes, let's wait and see.

edit: BTW, Trump has several Catholics in his group of advisers: Conway, DHS Sec. Conway, Bannon, and Spicer. VP Pence was raised Catholic. Those are just the ones I know of.
( Last edited by Chongo; Jan 30, 2017 at 06:45 AM. )
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Jan 30, 2017, 05:17 AM
 
From our fake friends at fake news site Infowars.


Epic – Is Team Trump Baiting Liberal Media and Refugee Protesters By Using Obama’s Own Policy? » Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

Why would the text of President Trump’s Executive Order suspending travel visas be readily available on CNN (HERE), New York Times (HERE), Wall Street Journal (HERE), but not on White House page (HERE)?
I don’t think it’s accidental. The limiting Visa program was President Obama’s action, not President Trump.
If you review the actual text of the executive order (copied below in full) what you will immediately notice is the order doesn’t specify ANY countries to be included in the Visa suspension (Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen).

President Trump is not suspending visas from countries his team selected, they are simply suspending visa approval from countries President Obama selected. Additionally, Trump is suspending ALL visa applications from those countries – nothing to do with Muslim applications.
• In 2013 President Obama suspended refugees from Iraq for six months.
• In 2015 Congress passed, and Obama signed, a law restricting visas from states of concern;
• and in 2016 Obama’s DHS, Jeh Johnson, expanded those restrictions. …. all President Trump is doing is taking the same action as Obama 2013, and applying Visa restrictions to the nation states Obama selected in 2015 and 2016.
From Feb. of 2016
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/...waiver-program
DHS Announces Further Travel Restrictions for the Visa Waiver Program
Release Date: February 18, 2016
For Immediate Release
DHS Press Office
Contact: 202-282-8010

WASHINGTON—The Department of Homeland Security today announced that it is continuing its implementation of the Visa Waiver Program Improvement and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act of 2015 with the addition of Libya, Somalia, and Yemen as three countries of concern, limiting Visa Waiver Program travel for certain individuals who have traveled to these countries.
( Last edited by Chongo; Jan 30, 2017 at 06:48 AM. )
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Jan 30, 2017, 09:42 AM
 
Having thought about it I have to think we're more likely to die at the hand of the police than muslims than terrorists.
     
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Jan 30, 2017, 11:16 PM
 
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 12:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
No, I'm not a crazy regressive.
That feels like a pretty spot-on description of you.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 08:51 AM
 
During her confirmation hearing, when asked by Sessions (!), Adams affirmed her belief that the AG should uphold the constitution even if it is contrary to what a president says:

Jeff Sessions grilled Sally Yates on constitutional duty during 2015 hearing - CNNPolitics.com
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 09:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
"You're fired."
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 09:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
"You're fired."
It struck me as a little more personal than that.
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 10:15 AM
 
"betrayed" is the key word, painting her as a traitor for following the law.

Donald is removing all the checks and balances... if his word is law, if he is beyond law, then all the doomsayers are not actually crazy.
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 11:28 AM
 
The President and the DoJ are in the same branch of government. They're not meant to check and balance each other.
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 11:34 AM
 
Blocking Iraqi translators that have worked with us since 2003 seems like an odd choice for this EO.
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 11:35 AM
 
Oh, and as always Paul Ryan has no spine. (Said this was unamerican in 2015, supportive now)
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 03:08 PM
 
My 2 cents ....

Sally Yates explicitly stated that the Office of Legal Counsel in the Justice Department said that Trump's Executive Order was "lawful and properly drafted". She made no objections to it on legal or constitutional grounds. She just objected to it on the basis of it not being "wise or just". And those are two very different things. The proper course of action in this case would have been to express her views to the White House and if they overruled her then simply resign. Especially since she was headed out the door anyway.

OAW
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 03:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The President and the DoJ are in the same branch of government. They're not meant to check and balance each other.
I know that in a literal sense... but the AG role is more about being true to the constitution than being a presidential yes-man, would you agree?
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 03:22 PM
 
Thread title is wrong. It should read "Trump's continuation of the Obama administration travel restrictions from states of concern- the bed wetting has begun"
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Jan 31, 2017, 03:31 PM
 
They are not the same thing.

1) Obama responded to a clear threat, from one location, and
2) Only increased screening for people from that location.

That these 7 countries were also of interest, it's interesting that Trump hasn't thrown all the Obama data-babies out with the bathwater.
To make an extreme ban like this, would be ok by me with a clear and present danger or sudden threat. This action behaves as though there is no screening in place now, which is not true. I see many posts from people saying Obama did not screen anybody, which is downright ignorant.
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 03:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
They are not the same thing.

1) Obama responded to a clear threat, from one location, and
2) Only increased screening for people from that location.

That these 7 countries were also of interest, it's interesting that Trump hasn't thrown all the Obama data-babies out with the bathwater.
To make an extreme ban like this, would be ok by me with a clear and present danger or sudden threat. This action behaves as though there is no screening in place now, which is not true. I see many posts from people saying Obama did not screen anybody, which is downright ignorant.
Right.
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/...waiver-program
DHS Announces Further Travel Restrictions for the Visa Waiver Program
Release Date: February 18, 2016
For Immediate Release
DHS Press Office
Contact: 202-282-8010

WASHINGTON—The Department of Homeland Security today announced that it is continuing its implementation of the Visa Waiver Program Improvement and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act of 2015 with the addition of Libya, Somalia, and Yemen as three countries of concern, limiting Visa Waiver Program travel for certain individuals who have traveled to these countries.

Pursuant to the Act, the Secretary of Homeland Security had sixty days to determine whether additional countries or areas of concern should be subject to the travel or dual nationality restrictions under the Act. After careful consideration, and in consultation with the Director of National Intelligence and the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Homeland Security has determined that Libya, Somalia, and Yemen be included as countries of concern, specifically for individuals who have traveled to these countries since March 1, 2011. At this time, the restriction on Visa Waiver Program travel will not apply to dual nationals of these three countries. DHS continues to consult with the Department of State and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence to develop further criteria to determine whether other countries would be added to this list.

Last month, the United States began implementing changes under the Act. The three additional countries designated today join Iran, Iraq, Sudan and Syria as countries subject to restrictions for Visa Waiver Program travel for certain individuals. Under the new law, the Secretary of Homeland Security may waive these restrictions if he determines that such a waiver is in the law enforcement or national security interests of the United States. Such waivers will be granted only on a case-by-case basis. As a general matter, categories of travelers who may be eligible for a waiver include individuals who traveled to these countries on behalf of international organizations, regional organizations, and sub-national governments on official duty; on behalf of a humanitarian NGO on official duty; or as a journalist for reporting purposes.

The addition of these three countries is indicative of the Department’s continued focus on the threat of foreign fighters. DHS continues to review the security of the Visa Waiver Program, the threat environment, and potential vulnerabilities. This is the latest step in a series of actions over the past 15 months to strengthen the security of the Visa Waiver Program and ensure the Program’s requirements are commensurate with the growing threat from foreign terrorist fighters, many of whom are nationals of Visa Waiver Program countries.

An updated Electronic System for Travel Authorization (ESTA) application with additional questions on travel to Libya, Somalia, and Yemen will be released this spring 2016 to address exceptions for diplomatic- and military-related travel provided for in the Act.

Individuals impacted will still be able to apply for a visa using the regular immigration process at our embassies or consulates. For those who need a U.S. visa for urgent business, medical, or humanitarian travel to the United States, U.S. embassies and consulates stand ready to provide visa interview appointments on an expedited basis. The new law does not ban travel to the United States, or admission into the United States, and the great majority of Visa Waiver Program travelers will not be affected.

Information on visa applications can be found at travel.state.gov

Current ESTA holders are encouraged to check their ESTA status prior to travel on U.S. Customs and Border Protection’s (CBP) website at esta.cbp.dhs.gov
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 04:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Trying to bury andi in text rather than actually present an argument? Well, at least it's not video.

Anyway, I got you fam
Why comparing Trump's and Obama's immigration restrictions is flawed | PolitiFact

The Obama administration in 2011 delayed processing Iraqi refugees for six months following evidence of a failed plot by two Iraqi refugees.

Trump’s executive order temporarily bars travel to the United States for all citizens from seven countries, and it is not in direct response to actions from citizens of those countries.
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 04:31 PM
 
I can find a meme if you would like one.
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Jan 31, 2017, 04:32 PM
 
Exclusive: Trump's travel ban polarizes America - Reuters/Ipsos poll | Reuters

The Jan. 30-31 poll found that 49 percent of American adults said they either "strongly" or "somewhat" agreed with Trump's order, while 41 percent "strongly" or "somewhat" disagreed and another 10 percent said they don't know.

But the responses were split almost entirely along party lines. Some 53 percent of Democrats said they "strongly disagree" with Trump's action while 51 percent of Republicans said they "strongly agree."
Not what the furor might have led you to believe.

My personal opinion, however is this might reflect some serious partisan knee-jerking. I guess polling on other issues may tell.
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 04:48 PM
 
here you go!
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Jan 31, 2017, 04:54 PM
 
Why were Obama's Executive Orders a breach of powers, kingly, overstepping, but Trumps are just fine?
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 05:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
here you go!
Changing the argument? You claimed they were the same. Are you backing off that?
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 05:12 PM
 
They are the same. Are you claiming they are not?
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Jan 31, 2017, 06:26 PM
 
Didn't Obama implement bans only against countries that were an immediate threat? Trump didn't even consult intelligence services. Just his rolodex.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 06:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
They are the same. Are you claiming they are not?
Perhaps you didn't see the reference in Dakar's post the first time? Or maybe you just prefer to ignore it because it's not supporting your preferred narrative? In any event, I'll quote even more of it ...

Originally Posted by PolitiFact.com
Our ruling

Trump said, "My policy is similar to what President Obama did in 2011 when he banned visas for refugees from Iraq for six months."

The Obama administration in 2011 delayed processing Iraqi refugees for six months following evidence of a failed plot by two Iraqi refugees.

Trump’s executive order temporarily bars travel to the United States for all citizens from seven countries, and it is not in direct response to actions from citizens of those countries.

Furthermore, Iraqi refugees were nonetheless admitted to the United States during the 2011 suspension while Trump has put an indefinite ban on Syrian refugees.

We rate Trump’s claim Mostly False.
OAW
     
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Jan 31, 2017, 09:14 PM
 
"Mostly false?" That could be also be "kinda true" (half empty or half full)
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Jan 31, 2017, 09:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
"Mostly false?" That could be also be "kinda true" (half empty or half full)
Only in the world of #AlternativeFacts does "mostly" = "half".

OAW
     
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Feb 1, 2017, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
They are the same. Are you claiming they are not?
Yeah that was already covered in a post above.
     
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Feb 1, 2017, 10:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
"Mostly false?" That could be also be "kinda true" (half empty or half full)
You're changing the argument again. You're arguing with the label rather than addressing the differences noted between the two actions.
     
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Feb 1, 2017, 10:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
That feels like a pretty spot-on description of you.
Why, thank you. I'm most certainly not.
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Feb 1, 2017, 10:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Why were Obama's Executive Orders a breach of powers, kingly, overstepping, but Trumps are just fine?
Why were Obama's wonderful but Trump's are signs of a dictatorship? Only a few people ever said a damned thing about Obama's abuses and 95% of the MSM swept it all under the rug and now they decide to go ape sh*t. The Narrative is what matters, moving the ball no matter what rules are broken, and now those chickens have come home and they're roosting like mother****ers.
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Feb 1, 2017, 04:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Why were Obama's wonderful but Trump's are signs of a dictatorship? Only a few people ever said a damned thing about Obama's abuses and 95% of the MSM swept it all under the rug and now they decide to go ape sh*t. The Narrative is what matters, moving the ball no matter what rules are broken, and now those chickens have come home and they're roosting like mother****ers.

My apologies if you said this before, but what Obama EOs were not last resorts after attempting to work with congress?
     
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Feb 1, 2017, 04:24 PM
 
Obama averaged 35 a year, less than Bush or Clinton.

Surely Don's 20 in 10 days should be considered a) some kind of record, and b) steamrollering an agenda. Surely a smart person could see they were not fully thought out, written by experienced personnel, or even well-planned (blocking green card holders was a stupid oversight).

Surely.
     
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Feb 1, 2017, 06:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
She is currently stuck, unable to visit her family because she will no longer be allowed back into the country she has lived and worked in for 30 years.
The ban doesnt apply to LPR's
     
 
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