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So, any concerns right-wingers? (Apparently none at all.) (Page 4)
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Feb 9, 2017, 07:22 AM
 
I thinks its very telling when Obamas lies didn't seem to matter to the lefties, but suddenly its a BIG DEAL when trump tells one.
     
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Feb 9, 2017, 09:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
I thinks its very telling when Obamas lies didn't seem to matter to the lefties, but suddenly its a BIG DEAL when trump tells one.
And yet you don't think it telling that the reverse is true. You spent 8 years moaning about Obama lying even when he wasn't but now your guy is officially the biggest liar in political history (70% of everything he says) and you guys don't even care when he lets you down, let alone the office or the country.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Feb 9, 2017, 09:53 AM
 
Where were all the Obama supporters giving him a C- one month into office?
     
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Feb 9, 2017, 11:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Why wasn't this ever brought up during Obamas terms in office in the PWL?? Double standard?
Sorry, who's talking about Obama again? I didn't bring him up.

I asked you, several times now, about the factually false statements that Trump makes and how that reflects on his character.
     
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Feb 9, 2017, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What's being made up is this shows he's a liar.

He may have been imprecise. He may have been describing how it feels to him. He may have misheard one of his sycophants. One of his sycophants may have lied to him. One of his sycophants may be ignorant. Trump may be ignorant.

All of these things suck, but they're not him lying.
Lying is a strong word to throw around, because it implies knowing his state of mind when he said something. Imprecise is an understatement, at least where most of the 'lies' I've heard are concerned.

What i think is more fair to say is that Trump states a lot of falsehoods. Further, given that these have been pointed out to him, at some point he has to retain ownership of the fact that he does a poor job of either verifying or backing up his untrue claims. Given that he doesn't seem to care about how often he his wrong or, in several cases, repeats false statements when the truth has been pointed out to him, I ask, what would you call a person who does this?
     
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Feb 9, 2017, 11:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Where were all the Obama supporters giving him a C- one month into office?
Doesn't that question depend on historic consensus that Obama's early days were equal in quality to Trump's?
     
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Feb 9, 2017, 11:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
In terms of a newly elected president, he's waited longer than anyone else.

Rather than an example of an easily confirmable lie, this is an example of the media twisting the intent behind Trump's statement to make it appear he's a liar, or worse, not giving a shit about his actual intent.

He's not bad enough on his own? We have to make stuff up?

I have a feeling I'm going to be asking those questions a lot over the next four years.
Turns out when you present a lot of verifiably untrue things and exaggerate people don't cut you a lot of slack.
     
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Feb 9, 2017, 06:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Doesn't that question depend on historic consensus that Obama's early days were equal in quality to Trump's?
Other than posturing, I can't remember Obama doing much of anything his first 20 days.
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Feb 9, 2017, 06:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Lying is a strong word to throw around, because it implies knowing his state of mind when he said something. Imprecise is an understatement, at least where most of the 'lies' I've heard are concerned.

What i think is more fair to say is that Trump states a lot of falsehoods.
Whenever you accuse someone of lying, you not only have to show that what they say is false, but also intent — you can state something that is false without lying, i. e. deliberately telling something that you know to be false. And while the former is quite easy at times, the latter is almost impossible. What is even worse, Trump and his inner circle don't even seem to care about truth, and if you don't care whether something is true or not, it is even harder to prove intent. That's why I wrote earlier that I find not even caring about the truth to be worse than lying.
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Feb 9, 2017, 08:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Other than posturing, I can't remember Obama doing much of anything his first 20 days.
Google is a thing that finds things:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_...sidency#Policy
     
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Feb 9, 2017, 08:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Google is a thing that finds things:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_...sidency#Policy
Apparently so memorable even those on the Left needed to use Google to find them.
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Feb 9, 2017, 08:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Apparently so memorable even those on the Left needed to use Google to find them.
When was the last time you were wrong about something?
     
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Feb 9, 2017, 09:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Given that he doesn't seem to care about how often he his wrong or, in several cases, repeats false statements when the truth has been pointed out to him, I ask, what would you call a person who does this?
A simple person who has defied simple labels.
     
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Feb 9, 2017, 09:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Doesn't that question depend on historic consensus that Obama's early days were equal in quality to Trump's?
I'll rephrase the question.

Someone who voted for Trump grading him a C- is going to easy on him?
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 10:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'll rephrase the question.

Someone who voted for Trump grading him a C- is going to easy on him?
That depends on the grade he actually deserves. Giving an A student a C- is being hard on that student. Giving a failing student a C- is going easy. To determine if someone is going easy on Trump requires an objective measure of how he's actually doing.
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 10:22 AM
 
Go on.
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 10:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
A simple person who has defied simple labels.
I.e. We don't have the word to deal with this kind of person
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 10:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I.e. We don't have the word to deal with this kind of person
Not one that cradles well in the fist like a roll of quarters.
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 11:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Not one that cradles well in the fist like a roll of quarters.
English, please
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 11:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Go on.
No one would agree on an assessment of his job so far.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
English, please
https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlike...ith_a_roll_of/

There's not a label that's mean or damaging enough (I think?).
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 11:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
English, please
There is not a word for it which gives someone a bloody nose like calling them a liar does.
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 11:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
No one would agree on an assessment of his job so far.
Then upon what basis are people being called out for not being critical enough?
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 11:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
There is not a word for it which gives someone a bloody nose like calling them a liar does.
Who is asking for that? I asked for what the appropriate term for his cavalier attitude towards facts makes him.
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 11:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Who is asking for that? I asked for what the appropriate term for his cavalier attitude towards facts makes him.
Fair enough. I'm lodging my complaint with the term "liar".

I'd say at least some people want to give Trump a (metaphorical) bloody nose.
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 11:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Then upon what basis are people being called out for not being critical enough?
A realistic one.
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 11:58 AM
 
So, a realistic assessment is a C- grade for Trump is ________?
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Fair enough. I'm lodging my complaint with the term "liar".

I'd say at least some people want to give Trump a (metaphorical) bloody nose.
What are the options? Let look at one category of untruths that he has used fairly often. He emphatically says something, and then days, weeks, months, or years later he emphatically claims he didn't. It's happened again and again and again.

The statements that are years, or even months old, one could reasonable chalk up to garden variety forgetfulness. But for things that are weeks are days, or in some cases hours old, there has to be another explanation. The only ones I can think of are:

1. He's lying
2. He's got some kind of mental or cognitive disorder, possibly dementia- he's not a young man
3. He's got some kind of personality disorder.

There are many other objectively false statements he has made that could possibly be the result of him being ill-informed or ill-advised, but not the self-contradictory statements.

This may just be wishful thinking on my part, but I'm starting to believe that he will not serve out his full term- he will either resign or be removed via the 25th Amendment.
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 12:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Fair enough. I'm lodging my complaint with the term "liar".

I'd say at least some people want to give Trump a (metaphorical) bloody nose.
I thought I already acknowledged this in my response to your long post where I said he can't be a liar because you can't prove intent.
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 12:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I thought I already acknowledged this in my response to your long post where I said he can't be a liar because you can't prove intent.
Honestly, I thought you were arguing "liar" is incorrect, but is still the best available.

My (honest) apologies for misunderstanding.
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 12:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
What are the options? Let look at one category of untruths that he has used fairly often. He emphatically says something, and then days, weeks, months, or years later he emphatically claims he didn't. It's happened again and again and again.

The statements that are years, or even months old, one could reasonable chalk up to garden variety forgetfulness. But for things that are weeks are days, or in some cases hours old, there has to be another explanation. The only ones I can think of are:

1. He's lying
2. He's got some kind of mental or cognitive disorder, possibly dementia- he's not a young man
3. He's got some kind of personality disorder.

There are many other objectively false statements he has made that could possibly be the result of him being ill-informed or ill-advised, but not the self-contradictory statements.

This may just be wishful thinking on my part, but I'm starting to believe that he will not serve out his full term- he will either resign or be removed via the 25th Amendment.
Here's the thing.

There are people out there who just don't care about precision.

As someone who does, I'm bothered by it, but these people can't be changed.

Nailing them on it 24/7 gets nowhere.


Edit: to be clear, inaccuracies should be corrected, but it's going to need to be triaged, and getting the culprit to acknowledge and/or fix the problem is nigh impossible.
( Last edited by subego; Feb 10, 2017 at 06:30 PM. )
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 01:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Honestly, I thought you were arguing "liar" is incorrect, but is still the best available.

My (honest) apologies for misunderstanding.
No, what I've been striving for is agreed upon terminology. I don't need to call Trump a liar, but what I do need is a word or two that accurately conveys his lack of fact checking, to put it mildly.
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 01:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
This may just be wishful thinking on my part, but I'm starting to believe that he will not serve out his full term- he will either resign or be removed via the 25th Amendment.
By any account, every single thing he did during the campaign should have ended his campaign. It seems useless to claim that anything that happened in the past is representative of what will actually happen now.
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 02:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
By any account, every single thing he did during the campaign should have ended his campaign. It seems useless to claim that anything that happened in the past is representative of what will actually happen now.
As evidence I submit the current actions of the GOP. No one wants to take the public flogging, just like none of the GOP candidates was willing to go all in on him. Never mind House oversight his completely gutless if not abetting him. The only real challenge is comIng from citizens in court and I won't be shocked if he's shielded from inquiry because of standing.
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
When was the last time you were wrong about something?
Yesterday, I thought a bolt was 13mm and it turned out to be .5 inch.
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Feb 10, 2017, 03:27 PM
 
I believe Trump has done a C+ job so far, he'll get better when he stops allowing himself to be baited by the Dems and the MSM.
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Feb 10, 2017, 04:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I believe Trump has done a C+ job so far, he'll get better when he stops allowing himself to be baited by the Dems and the MSM.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Trump is still pwning the MSM and leading them around by their noses.
Which is it? Is he leading the media around by their noses or being baited by them?
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 05:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
By any account, every single thing he did during the campaign should have ended his campaign. It seems useless to claim that anything that happened in the past is representative of what will actually happen now.
I'm absolutely convinced he never planned to be President and just got caught up in all of it, and now here he is and he doesn't have the mental or emotional strength to deal with the reality of it.

He seems to have bought into the notion that he is now the most powerful man in the world, and yet somehow he isn't getting his way as he's used to. I think he's going to break.
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 06:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
No, what I've been striving for is agreed upon terminology. I don't need to call Trump a liar, but what I do need is a word or two that accurately conveys his lack of fact checking, to put it mildly.
The tautological answer is "Trumpish".

One of my ex's favorite malapropisms is "swarmy". As far as I can tell, it's a kitbash of "smarmy" (which it rhymes with) and "swarthy". Trump is neither of those things, but AFAICT she didn't use the word to mean either of those things. That word's open I guess.

Something "snake oil" is in the ballpark, but not quite right.

The best I have is "afactual". Like asexual.
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 07:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The tautological answer is "Trumpish".

One of my ex's favorite malapropisms is "swarmy". As far as I can tell, it's a kitbash of "smarmy" (which it rhymes with) and "swarthy". Trump is neither of those things, but AFAICT she didn't use the word to mean either of those things. That word's open I guess.

Something "snake oil" is in the ballpark, but not quite right.

The best I have is "afactual". Like asexual.
I appreciate the humor aspect, but unfortunately since my aim is communication, a made-up label is completely ineffective and pointless.
     
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Feb 10, 2017, 07:37 PM
 
FWIW, I wasn't trying to be humorous with "afactual".
     
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Feb 11, 2017, 03:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Which is it? Is he leading the media around by their noses or being baited by them?
Which is what? At first it was the former, and now it's turned into the latter. Is your world as static as it appears?
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Feb 11, 2017, 08:09 AM
 
Can we compare the lies and mischaracterizations from the MSM vs Trumps? Who would be more guilty of knowingly lying?
     
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Feb 11, 2017, 08:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Can we compare the lies and mischaracterizations from the MSM vs Trumps? Who would be more guilty of knowingly lying?
Why bother to ask this question? We all know you have already drawn a woefully wrong conclusion about it. The more interesting question is how can you be so blind and so foolish as to not be able to see it and see Trump for what he is?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Feb 11, 2017, 10:26 AM
 
I do. I also see what lies and crap the MSM and such are doing. Those stupid and gullible enough to fall for it sound a lot like you.

NewsBusters |
     
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Feb 11, 2017, 12:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
I do. I also see what lies and hashish the MSM and such are doing. Those stupid and gullible enough to fall for it sound a lot like you.

NewsBusters |

So, Mr. Great Judge of Character, why would you put this amount of trust into an media organization whose mission is to promote conservative ideologies? Have you ever considered there being bias in Newsbusters?

If we are to take HuffPo and others with a grain of salt, you need to do the same with Newsbusters.

However, I guess you don't need this lesson since you are a great judge of character on account of not being a liberal.
     
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Feb 11, 2017, 12:43 PM
 
The "alt" sources suck, but them sucking doesn't somehow improve the mainstream ones.
     
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Feb 11, 2017, 12:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
I thinks its very telling when Obamas lies didn't seem to matter to the lefties, but suddenly its a BIG DEAL when trump tells one.
You're kidding, right? Please tell me you're kidding.

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Feb 11, 2017, 01:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The "alt" sources suck, but them sucking doesn't somehow improve the mainstream ones.

I didn't make any claims about the MSM, but if I were I would say it is lazy and profit driven to a fault, I'm just commenting on BadKosh's claim that Newsbusters is a definitive source of exposing bias.
     
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Feb 11, 2017, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I didn't make any claims about the MSM, but if I were I would say it is lazy and profit driven to a fault, I'm just commenting on BadKosh's claim that Newsbusters is a definitive source of exposing bias.
I can't blame the MSM for being profit driven. Food doesn't just magically appear on the table.

I likewise wouldn't single out the MSM for laziness. They're not distinctly lazier than the average.

While Newsbusters may not be a definitive source for exposing bias, it's bias which is the MSM's big problem.

The discussion usually devolves into talk of political bias at this point, but the problem is more fundamental. It's cognitive bias. It's not about whose team they're on, it's about the tricks the brain has evolved to avoid the effort of reasoning.

People generally don't reason through things. They follow instinct, and the brain pretends it's reasoned the instinctual conclusion. I'm not knocking this. It's the only way we can function in day to day life without being overwhelmed by the crush of data being thrown at us.

For the narrow thing they're investigating, it's a journalist's job to fight the brain's programming to take shortcuts, and actually do the reasoning.

They don't. Oh gawd how they don't. They don't even try. This is the fundamental failure of the MSM.

Where the politics comes in is politics gets used to fill in all those blanks in the reasoning, but again, that's not the real problem. If there aren't blanks in the reasoning, the politics are irrelevant.
     
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Feb 11, 2017, 02:37 PM
 
And I only give Newsbusters a 70 percent.

BTW... wasn't it just a few weeks into Obamas 1st term that he was being a racist asshole claiming a police officer had harassed a drunk black professor who locked himself out of his house and the responding officer went by procedure only to be sterotypically characterized by racist Obama as a thug/etc??
     
 
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