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So, any concerns right-wingers? (Apparently none at all.) (Page 6)
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Feb 16, 2017, 09:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Don't buy it. Where's the link?
It's been posted here several times before.

The Obameter: Tracking Obama's promises | PolitiFact

Again, subjective. Many, many people think your ideological stances are crazy.
Ooo yeah, tell me about my stances. Actually, please do - what do you think I stand for?
     
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Feb 16, 2017, 03:47 PM
 
^^^

CTP is either suffering from a case of convenient amnesia or simply ignoring unwelcome facts. It's posted on the front page of this thread. Just a bit over two weeks ago. But at the end of the day if he can't accept the conclusions he can always take it up with PolitFact.com.

OAW
     
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Feb 16, 2017, 06:22 PM
 
From https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/16/u...T.nav=top-news

He asserted that his victory in the Electoral College was the largest since Ronald Reagan. But he won fewer Electoral College votes than three of the four presidents since Reagan: Barack Obama, Bill Clinton and George Bush.
Are you kidding me? I mean really? REALLY? Really. Really??

A 12 year old could fact check this.
     
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Feb 16, 2017, 07:11 PM
 
Trump is a consummate BS artist who actually believes his own BS. Even in the face of incontrovertible facts. This is far above and beyond political SPIN. We are well into DELUSIONS OF GRANDEUR territory now. And all of this was on full display long before the election. AFAIC anyone who voted for this man was either not paying attention at all or is simply a damned fool.

OAW
     
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Feb 16, 2017, 11:16 PM
 
Trump is Cartmanesque.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Feb 17, 2017, 05:05 PM
 
Typical Politifact, the vast majority of those "Compromises" are just failures.
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Feb 17, 2017, 05:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
^^^

CTP is either suffering from a case of convenient amnesia
You're contagious? Gee, you told me you were clean.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 11:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Maybe Trump is smart enough to realise that the evangelicals see him as their puppet and the long term plan is to get rid of him and put Pence in charge.
I'm around evangelicals all the time. Trust me, they're all in on Trump.

[EDIT] Just a note: when I say "Evangelicals," I'm referring mostly to Baptists, who I bump into at various functions in the area.
( Last edited by Jawbone54; Feb 20, 2017 at 02:30 PM. )
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I'm around evangelicals all the time. Trust me, they're all in on Trump.
Maybe you can help me understand what they see in him, from a Christian perspective?
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 11:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Maybe you can help me understand what they see in him, from a Christian perspective?
A Better Opportunity Re: Taking Influence On Nabortionlaw
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 11:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Maybe you can help me understand what they see in him, from a Christian perspective?
An in-depth answer is probably too long and complicated.

It depends on which group you're talking about. Traditional evangelical religions are strongly pro-Trump, and often very political. There's a lot more variance in non-denominational congregations, but they've definitely been more critical of Trump. It doesn't always happen from behind the pulpit, as they generally stay out of political issues. The organization that I hold license with is somewhere in between, although we had a pastor in California greatly embarrass us about two weeks ago.

Generally, they feel like they've been lied to by Republicans for decades. They say what they want to hear during an campaign, then do almost none of it while in office. The sex scandals by pols like David Vitter haven't helped.

As far as I can tell, Trump's primary allure comes in that he's bold/crazy enough to do the things that he said he would during the campaign. The first few weeks of his presidency confirmed as much. That, along with the elevated hysteria from the media and Hollywood, actually endears him more to his supporters, as it gives them yet another rally point to get behind.

It's a lot more complicated than that, but perhaps that makes sense?
( Last edited by Jawbone54; Feb 20, 2017 at 11:58 AM. )
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 12:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
An in-depth answer is probably too long and complicated.

It depends on which group you're talking about. Traditional evangelical religions are strongly pro-Trump, and often very political. There's a lot more variance in non-denominational congregations, but they've definitely been more critical of Trump. It doesn't always happen from behind the pulpit, as they generally stay out of political issues. The organization that I hold license with is somewhere in between, although we had a pastor in California greatly embarrass us about two weeks ago.

Generally, they feel like they've been lied to by Republicans for decades. They say what they want to hear during an campaign, then do almost none of it while in office. The sex scandals by pols like David Vitter haven't helped.

As far as I can tell, Trump's primary allure comes in that he's bold/crazy enough to do the things that he said he would during the campaign. The first few weeks of his presidency confirmed as much. That, along with the elevated hysteria from the media and Hollywood, actually endears him more to his supporters, as it gives them yet another rally point to get behind.

It's a lot more complicated than that, but perhaps that makes sense?


I definitely appreciate the attempt, but it doesn't make sense to me because there isn't really a religious component to what I'm understanding you are saying, aside from the concepts of honesty? If these Christians are all about honesty, wouldn't they have been more at home with Bernie Sanders?
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 01:19 PM
 
They don't sound like the recent atheists either.
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 02:09 PM
 
Well imagine that.

And the president is seemingly caught in another whopper. And by that doggone “fake press” at that.

As far back as the 1980s, the New York Times reports that Donald Trump had been claiming he graduated at the top of his class at UPenn’s Wharton Business School. Yet, despite these claims of being numero uno, school records suggest that Trump was not, nor was he even close.

The coldest part is that this exposure comes from the students at the institution itself. The University of Pennsylvania’s student-run newspaper, The Daily Pennsylvanian, found historical documents (or, primary sources,) to dispute the president’s claims.


It dug into the records available during the time President Trump was at the school (he finished at UPenn in 1968 after transferring from Fordham University as a junior).

In 1968, The Daily Pennsylvanian published a list of the 56 students who were on the Wharton Dean’s List that year—Trump’s name is not among them. The paper also found the commencement program from 1968 which does not list Trump as graduating with honors of any kind.

The school newspaper also notes that the university’s online alumni database lists 366 graduates of its business school in 1968, therefore, not being named among the top 56 means that Trump didn’t “graduate first in his class,” as he’s reportedly claimed in past interviews.

The Pennsylvanian also found several of Trump’s former classmates, whose observations seem to jibe with the man in the White House today.

Louis Calomaris, a 1968 Wharton graduate, recalled that “Don ... was loath to really study much.” He said Trump would come to study groups unprepared and did not “seem to care about being prepared.”


He added that Trump’s academic passivity likely stemmed from his passion for engaging directly in the real estate business

This notion of being more focused on actually doing business than his business studies was confirmed by other classmates who said he often went to New York City to work in commercial real estate, which “is a weekend business.”

1968 Wharton graduate Edward Pollard described Trump as “very professional” and “different from the rest of the class.”
UPenn Paper Exposes Trump’s Lies About Graduating at Top of His Class | TheRoot.com

OAW
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 02:22 PM
 
And of course this means as much as Obama's missing college transcripts.
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 02:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I definitely appreciate the attempt, but it doesn't make sense to me because there isn't really a religious component to what I'm understanding you are saying, aside from the concepts of honesty? If these Christians are all about honesty, wouldn't they have been more at home with Bernie Sanders?
I think it's more along the lines of "no one is telling us the truth, so we might as well get in bed with the 'devil' who will accomplish conservative goals regardless of whether or not he says crazy things." Again, their main issue is a dissatisfaction with CINOs, which seemingly makes up 95% of the GOP.

He's an outsider, not beholden to the established Washington lobbyist brigade, so everyone jumps on board because they believe the system was far too broken to work. Admittedly, it's an experiment that could go terribly, terribly wrong, but I don't think it's guaranteed, as his opponents seem to believe.

I know a lot of people paint Trump supporters with a broad brush. I live in an area of the country which strongly supported him, and my sample size is admittedly too small to make any sweeping judgments, but the vast majority of people I know who support Trump definitely do so while choking back their distaste for his personal life and verbiage, particularly the staunch Christians.

I sat around tables with pastors from all over the country; very few of them were ecstatic about Trump's candidacy. Most of them seemed to support Rubio in the early stages. However, again...my organization might not reflect the evangelical church. Most Southern Baptists, Methodists, etc. have a pretty strong distaste for us.
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 03:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
And of course this means as much as Obama's missing college transcripts.
You need to try some alternative replies. One note is really one note.
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 04:12 PM
 
This is the guy that Trump threatened to withhold federal funding for the UC Berkley over.

Milo Yiannopoulos disinvited from CPAC slot amid tape controversy - POLITICO

Apparently CPAC was quite alright with this dude's undeniable history of racist, misogynistic, and anti-semitic trolling. Because being "anti-PC" is all the rage in right-wing circles nowadays. I guess the whole pedophilia thing is where they draw the line.

OAW
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 04:42 PM
 
The article doesn't tell us what he actually said.


Originally Posted by Politico
quickly threatened to taint
Zing!
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 04:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The article doesn't tell us what he actually said.
See the unedited video for yourself. Start at the 1:02:00 mark.



OAW

PS: Milo apparently holds the view that "pedophilia" is only when an adult has sexual contact with a kid who hasn't reached puberty. I submit most people consider that to be a "distinction without a difference".
( Last edited by OAW; Feb 20, 2017 at 05:14 PM. )
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 05:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
the vast majority of people I know who support Trump definitely do so while choking back their distaste for his personal life and verbiage, particularly the staunch Christians.
Which is understandable, however I get the feeling these are the same people who cared deeply if a President had a bj in the oval office and used to consider character important.

Now there're just as bad as the rest of us.
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 05:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
See the unedited video for yourself. Start at the 1:02:00 mark.



OAW

PS: Milo apparently holds the view that "pedophilia" is only when an adult has sexual contact with a kid who hasn't reached puberty. I submit most people consider that to be a "distinction without a difference".

I watched four minutes.

I don't think what he said was particularly out there, but I could see how it would flip out a Republican.

He's not saying pedophilia is only when an adult has sexual contact with a kid who hasn't reached puberty. He's putting a bunch more qualifiers on it.
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 05:32 PM
 
The fallout continues ....

Milo Yiannopoulos loses his book deal with Simon & Schuster amid growing outcry | WashingtonPost.com

And word on the street is that he will likely get dumped from his editor position at Breitbart.com as well.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Feb 21, 2017 at 04:44 PM. )
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 05:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I watched four minutes.

I don't think what he said was particularly out there, but I could see how it would flip out a Republican.

He's not saying pedophilia is only when an adult has sexual contact with a kid who hasn't reached puberty. He's putting a bunch more qualifiers on it.
Actually he did. Explicitly and in no uncertain terms. The whole topic got going around the 1:02:30 mark:

Originally Posted by Milo Yiannopoulous
The law is probably about right, that’s probably roughly the right age. I think it’s probably about okay, but there are certainly people who are capable of giving consent at a younger age, I certainly consider myself to be one of them, people who are sexually active younger. I think it particularly happens in the gay world by the way. In many cases actually those relationships with older men…This is one reason I hate the left. This stupid one size fits all policing of culture. (People speak over each other). This sort of arbitrary and oppressive idea of consent, which totally destroys you know understanding that many of us have. The complexities and subtleties and complicated nature of many relationships. You know, people are messy and complex. In the homosexual world particularly. Some of those relationships between younger boys and older men, the sort of coming of age relationships, the relationships in which those older men help those young boys to discover who they are, and give them security and safety and provide them with love and a reliable and sort of a rock where they can’t speak to their parents. Some of those relationships are the most -
Originally Posted by Host
It sounds like Catholic priest molestation to me!
Originally Posted by Milo Yiannopoulos
And you know what? I'm grateful for Fr. Michael. I wouldn't give nearly such good head if it wasn't for him.
Originally Posted by Host
Oh my god! I can't handle it!
Then around the 1:04:40 mark:

Originally Posted by Milo Yiannopoulos
You're misunderstanding what pedophilia means. Pedophilia is not a sexual attraction to somebody 13 years old who is sexually mature. Pedophilia is attraction to children who have not reached puberty. Pedophilia is attraction to people who don't have functioning sex organs yet. Who have not gone through puberty. Who are too young to be able to understand the way their bodies [sic]. That is NOT what we are talking about. You don't understand what pedophilia is if you think that I'm defending it. Because I'm certainly not.
Originally Posted by Host
No no no I'm not saying you're "defending" it ... I'm saying you are walking the border line.
Originally Posted by Milo Yiannopoulos
Well you did say I was "defending" it and you were wrong.
Originally Posted by Host
Ok fine. I retract my statement Milo. I retract my statement. I shan't slander you further. But you are advocating for "cross-generational relationships" here. Can we be honest about that?
Originally Posted by Milo Yiannopoulos
Yeah, I don’t mind admitting that. I think particularly in the gay world and outside the Catholic church, if that’s where some of you want to go with this, I think in the gay world, some of the most important, enriching and incredibly life affirming, important shaping relationships very often between younger boys and older men, they can be hugely positive experiences for those young boys they can even save those young boys, from desolation, from suicide (people talk over each other)… providing they’re consensual.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Feb 20, 2017 at 06:24 PM. )
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 05:52 PM
 
There was also a bunch of stuff he said around it. He's obviously making a more nuanced point.
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 06:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Which is understandable, however I get the feeling these are the same people who cared deeply if a President had a bj in the oval office and used to consider character important.
"Clinton Lie" is a term I heard over and over again from my dad when I tried telling him something that was technically true or if I left out some important information.

Here's something else I'm learning - many conservatives, and especially Christian conservatives, believe themselves to be an oppressed minority under attack. In a country where 70% of people self-identify as Christian, Christians believe that they are holdouts from a better era, now afraid to speak their mind for fear of being shamed, judged, and oppressed for their "outdated" views on sexuality, marriage, family, child-rearing, abortion, and more. (Of course, they all miss the irony of who's historically done the most shaming, judging, and oppression in the history of this country, and also the world. HOW DOES IT FEEL, CHRISTIANS??)

Once I realized this, it made much more sense that Christians would back a strong, authoritarian leader who:

- Promises to make America great again (like back when you could use the word "gay" as slang for "lame"

- Attacks the deceptive, liberal media that pushes a liberal agenda promoting homosexual acceptance, free trans bathroom usage, and mandatory abortions for everyone

- Speaks freely and off-the-cuff, not constrained by today's awful "PC" culture, a culture where you're afraid to speak ill of the LGBTQ community, where you're afraid to question basic human rights, where the historically oppressed peoples have the audacity to speak up, tell their story, and defend their right to exist without hiding

- Offered a real solution to and spoke openly about about the "Muslim problem." Muslims hate America and espeically Christians and want to see all of it destroyed, it says so in the Koran, not that they've read it. BTW I love bacon, shellfish, hugging my wife every day, and braided hair.

I could go on.
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 06:43 PM
 
Speaking of hypocrisy, I don't think it's a real issue, but if you hated Obama playing golf, you must loathe Trump.
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 06:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
"Clinton Lie" is a term I heard over and over again from my dad when I tried telling him something that was technically true or if I left out some important information.

Here's something else I'm learning - many conservatives, and especially Christian conservatives, believe themselves to be an oppressed minority under attack. In a country where 70% of people self-identify as Christian, Christians believe that they are holdouts from a better era, now afraid to speak their mind for fear of being shamed, judged, and oppressed for their "outdated" views on sexuality, marriage, family, child-rearing, abortion, and more. (Of course, they all miss the irony of who's historically done the most shaming, judging, and oppression in the history of this country, and also the world. HOW DOES IT FEEL, CHRISTIANS??)
This has been patently obvious since the War on Christmas™. I mean, 12 years ago on these forums we were arguing about this BS.

Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Once I realized this, it made much more sense that Christians would back a strong, authoritarian leader who:

- Promises to make America great again (like back when you could use the word "gay" as slang for "lame"

- Attacks the deceptive, liberal media that pushes a liberal agenda promoting homosexual acceptance, free trans bathroom usage, and mandatory abortions for everyone

- Speaks freely and off-the-cuff, not constrained by today's awful "PC" culture, a culture where you're afraid to speak ill of the LGBTQ community, where you're afraid to question basic human rights, where the historically oppressed peoples have the audacity to speak up, tell their story, and defend their right to exist without hiding

- Offered a real solution to and spoke openly about about the "Muslim problem." Muslims hate America and espeically Christians and want to see all of it destroyed, it says so in the Koran, not that they've read it. BTW I love bacon, shellfish, hugging my wife every day, and braided hair.

I could go on.
Honestly, I don't see this as a religious thing. There was a poll a year or two back that showed conservatives would be ok with an authoritarian, as long as he was republican. This was in the heydey of 'Emperor Obama" of course.

Personal question: With how you're criticizing Christianity here, have you become less devout or just tired of hypocritical christians?
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 06:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
There was also a bunch of stuff he said around it. He's obviously making a more nuanced point.
Milo was describing sexual relations between a 13- or 14-year old and an apparently 28-year old. (He already did so on Joe Rogan's podcast, so that story isn't exactly news.) I don't think there is any nuance there as far as whether it is sexual abuse of a minor. The fact that Milo feels it was consensual or that, to use his words, that “he was the predator” doesn't change that. Nuance is when you are talking about relations between a 13- and a 16-year old or a 14- and an 18-year old. As a normally wired adult you don't desire the bodies and personalities of young teenagers, so even if you are propositioned, regular people simply aren't interested. Plus, how many other young boys did Milo's priest molest? Did all of them have such a positive memory of their sexual abuse?

I mean, I have met someone whose mother slept with him when he was 13 and he claims he is ok with it. Unfortunately, it twisted his own sexuality and he got caught in possession of child porn. When I confronted him about it, it was clear that he didn't feel it was wrong because he thought the children in the videos were willing participants. He was incapable of empathizing with other victims of sexual abuse because of how he saw his own.
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Feb 20, 2017, 07:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I think it's more along the lines of "no one is telling us the truth, so we might as well get in bed with the 'devil' who will accomplish conservative goals regardless of whether or not he says crazy things." Again, their main issue is a dissatisfaction with CINOs, which seemingly makes up 95% of the GOP.

He's an outsider, not beholden to the established Washington lobbyist brigade, so everyone jumps on board because they believe the system was far too broken to work. Admittedly, it's an experiment that could go terribly, terribly wrong, but I don't think it's guaranteed, as his opponents seem to believe.

I know a lot of people paint Trump supporters with a broad brush. I live in an area of the country which strongly supported him, and my sample size is admittedly too small to make any sweeping judgments, but the vast majority of people I know who support Trump definitely do so while choking back their distaste for his personal life and verbiage, particularly the staunch Christians.

I sat around tables with pastors from all over the country; very few of them were ecstatic about Trump's candidacy. Most of them seemed to support Rubio in the early stages. However, again...my organization might not reflect the evangelical church. Most Southern Baptists, Methodists, etc. have a pretty strong distaste for us.


Why do you feel that there is an American tendency for Christianity to be linked to conservatism? From my vantage point many modern day conservatives (particularly the staunch Trump supporters) are very empathy deficient, and empathy deficiency is not something I've ever associated with Christianity.
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 10:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
empathy deficiency is not something I've ever associated with Christianity.
And yet they pray to god to let their team win the Superbowl while children starve and die in the third world. Not much empathy going on there. Its not that they lack the capacity, they just don't think much through. Otherwise they wouldn't be Christians.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 10:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
There was also a bunch of stuff he said around it. He's obviously making a more nuanced point.
It seems likely he shares CTP's horrible one dimensional 'understanding' of consent. In regards to what he explicitly said about pedophilia and pre-pubescence, I haven't checked but that sounds like a dictionary definition to me.

I know people who as teenagers had relationships with people in their 30s or 40s. To my knowledge, none of them feel they were abused either, though I suspect some harbour regrets and others simply choose not to think about it. IMO there is definitely something wrong with you if you are attracted to 13 or 14 year old girls. Once upon a time they might have been much closer to their older counterparts, but nowadays they are children, plain and simple. Hell, I often think that of 20+ year olds but thats another topic.

There was a high ranking police officer in the UK a while back who made the very valid point that it was ridiculous to try a 17 year old who was sleeping with a 15 year old as a pedophile. He got jumped on for saying it but he was right. Milo is trying to say something similar but he's gone a bit too far out of everyone's comfort zone and probably too far outside of his own 'expertise'. People often forget that speed limits are set for the people who don't understand how dangerous it is to crash a car, even though they are capable of driving one.
One doesn't have to spend long watching or listening to Milo to see he has glaring issues. I'm sure shrinks the world over are muttering under their collective breath "not remotely surprised" at the revelation he was abused as teenager. I wonder what his mother did to make him hate women so much.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 10:47 PM
 
^^^

Even the "dictionary definition" of pedophilia says nothing about it only being applicable to pre-pubescent children. That's some BS he is on. He's essentially trying to make the case that "pederasty" is cool but "pedophilia" is not. I can't say that he's a card carrying member of NAMBLA ... but given his commentary he might as well be.

OAW
     
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Feb 20, 2017, 11:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
It seems likely he shares CTP's horrible one dimensional 'understanding' of consent. In regards to what he explicitly said about pedophilia and pre-pubescence, I haven't checked but that sounds like a dictionary definition to me.
It is not age, it is mental development to be able to give consent. It is not normal for someone at that age to desire someone that far outside of his or her own age group. I'm not saying this person is to blame, the adult always is, but it nevertheless is something to be looked into.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I know people who as teenagers had relationships with people in their 30s or 40s. To my knowledge, none of them feel they were abused either, though I suspect some harbour regrets and others simply choose not to think about it. IMO there is definitely something wrong with you if you are attracted to 13 or 14 year old girls. [...] who made the very valid point that it was ridiculous to try a 17 year old who was sleeping with a 15 year old as a pedophile. He got jumped on for saying it but he was right.
There is definitely nuance if you stretch the boundaries, 13 and 18, 15 and 20. I remember one of my high school class mates had a 13-year old girlfriend when he was 17 but even that felt edgy. But 28 and 13, 14 is way, way beyond that gray area, and moreover, law has to be precise. I wrote in my post above about a colleague who thought it wasn't wrong for his mother to sleep with him when he was 13; he was later convicted of possession of child pornography.
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Feb 21, 2017, 01:53 AM
 
Well at any rate, Milo is a douche. I have no sympathy.
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Feb 21, 2017, 06:33 AM
 
First off, need I remind everyone Milo is a troll? If it isn't obvious "I suck cock much better because of that priest" is being intentionally provocative, I don't know what to say.

When it comes to the question of whether a 13-year-old can give consent, there are certainly rare exceptions who can. It's not a reason to put the law that low, and even Milo isn't enough of a dickhead to argue it is.

This isn't a legal debate, it's a moral one. The proposition he makes is the exceptions are morally justified in the pursuit of their exceptionalism.

I'll straightsplain why he thinks this way.

I was taught how to be straight. Obviously, some basic functions were provided biologically, but I needed to learn what that biology meant in terms of my role in society. It wasn't particularly difficult to do. I've been surrounded by it since the moment I was born. Equipped with even the barest skills of observation, and a set of parents to observe, I was on the road to understanding how I'm supposed to be straight. It's been so pervasive throughout my life, if I wasn't paying attention I might even believe I didn't have to learn it. I was just born knowing.

A gay kid? Is taught to be straight. This completely ****s with their head. Despite the appeal of the idea being gay is just being straight but with dudes, that's not the way it is. Certainly not the way our society operates.

Straight kids are mentored by society. Gay kids need actual mentors.

The result of this is a scenario which in straight terms would be unquestionably dicey (because it is), but in gay terms is being offered as a preferable alternative to suicide (because it is).


I shall leave the question of whether Milo's politics contribute to gay kids feeling so ****ed up by it they want to kill themselves as an exercise for the reader.
     
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Feb 21, 2017, 09:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
When it comes to the question of whether a 13-year-old can give consent, there are certainly rare exceptions who can. It's not a reason to put the law that low, and even Milo isn't enough of a dickhead to argue it is.
Except that seems to be exactly what he is arguing. Except when he isn't. He's actually being quite unclear about the whole thing. I was reading some of the post where he tried to defend himself and he says he's totally against pedophilia including 13-28 ages except that seems to be exactly what he's championing in the video. You make a good point and if he is trying to say that young gay men need mentors, then maybe he would have a point but that doesn't seem to be what he's saying either. Not exactly. He isn't normally confusing or contradictory about anything he says which tells me he knows he's messed up this time and gone too far. Unfortunately he's too arrogant to say sorry and to try to reset the conversation so he can explain a more reasonable version of what he actually means and so people are simply saying "I can't be sure what he means so when it comes to child molestation I'm going to err on the side of caution."
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Feb 21, 2017, 10:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Personal question: With how you're criticizing Christianity here, have you become less devout or just tired of hypocritical christians?
It's probably partly a reaction to my parents' (and what seems to be the most common or at least vocal) brand of judgemental, anti-intellectual, insular Christianity, absent of love and compassion for society's cast-outs (you know, the people that Jesus spent basically all of his time with). They're concerned with following the rules and shaming, punishing, or at least delighting in the downfall of "sinners," and it's important that everyone see them in their self-righteousness, whether it's via obnoxious bumper stickers, Facebook posts, or snide comments made in "friendly" company. It's almost like those type of people existed in the Bible and when Jesus wasn't spending time with prostitutes, tax collectors, and the unclean, he was railing on them (pharisees) for completely missing the point.

I'm still active in a local congregation and though our doctrines may not line up completely, I appreciate what they choose to stress and the work they do in the community, with significant outreach to the local homeless population, a mentorship program for at-risk and local immigrant youth, and campaigns that stock every food pantry in the region.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
As a normally wired adult you don't desire the bodies and personalities of young teenagers, so even if you are propositioned, regular people simply aren't interested.
In the history of the world, this is a fairly recent concept, no? The age of consent hovered anywhere from 8-12 years old until the last few hundred years. Isn't saying a "normally wired adult" trying to claim today's societal standards as "normal?"
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Feb 21, 2017, 10:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
When it comes to the question of whether a 13-year-old can give consent, there are certainly rare exceptions who can. It's not a reason to put the law that low, and even Milo isn't enough of a dickhead to argue it is.
Except that he has argued exactly that. Taken from here:
Originally Posted by Milo
This is one of the reasons why I hate the Left, another sort of stupid [inaudible] One size fits all, policing of culture. [crosstalk] This arbitrary and oppressive idea of consent, which totally destroys [...] the understanding that many of us have of the complexities and subtleties and complicated nature of many relationships. You know, people are messy and complex, [...]
So yeah, he not only thinks age of consent laws are policy positions of “the Left”, but claims that they are oppressive because they are “one size fits all”. Judging by his comments on the Joe Rogan Podcast his attitude towards such inappropriate sexual relationships is very similar to that of my former colleague:
Originally Posted by Milo
Milo: So you have never seen a 15-year old girl at any point in your life, however old you were, you have never seen a 15-year old girl you thought was hot?

Joe: Yeah, when I was 15! [Yes, exactly the right answer, Joe.]

Milo: No, when you were 25. [Laughs] When you were 25, when you were 30, you have seen girls of 15 that were hot!

Joe: No!
Edit: Milo claims in a video message that he was merely joking as a way to talk about his experience. If that's his way of coping, I think he still needs more therapy.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Straight kids are mentored by society. Gay kids need actual mentors.
People who engage in inappropriate relationships aren't mentors, that person does not act in the best interests of (mostly) his (but also her) mentee. A mentor could be the gay teacher who sees the struggle the kid is in and talks to him. Or a slightly older student who puts him or her in touch with some other gay kids, i. e. peers.
( Last edited by OreoCookie; Feb 21, 2017 at 10:51 AM. )
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Feb 21, 2017, 10:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
In the history of the world, this is a fairly recent concept, no? The age of consent hovered anywhere from 8-12 years old until the last few hundred years. Isn't saying a "normally wired adult" trying to claim today's societal standards as "normal?"
You are right, but in the past a whole host of other horrible things such as slavery were “normal” even though we find them barbaric now. Many of these unequal marriages weren't exactly voluntary.

You are right that culture of course has something to do with building up barriers against marrying someone whose age is vastly different from our own or marry our siblings. But culture doesn't live in a vacuum, there are reasons why it has developed the way it has and put consent laws in place. Why we don't allow 14-year olds to get married to 40-year olds. Research shows that our brains aren't fully developed until we hit 25, meaning that the points of views of these people is vastly different. That's why most people choose partners of a similar age, especially when they were young (where the age and maturity difference mattered).
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Feb 21, 2017, 11:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I'm around evangelicals all the time. Trust me, they're all in on Trump.

[EDIT] Just a note: when I say "Evangelicals," I'm referring mostly to Baptists, who I bump into at various functions in the area.
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Maybe you can help me understand what they see in him, from a Christian perspective?
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
An in-depth answer is probably too long and complicated.

It depends on which group you're talking about. Traditional evangelical religions are strongly pro-Trump, and often very political. There's a lot more variance in non-denominational congregations, but they've definitely been more critical of Trump. It doesn't always happen from behind the pulpit, as they generally stay out of political issues. The organization that I hold license with is somewhere in between, although we had a pastor in California greatly embarrass us about two weeks ago.

Generally, they feel like they've been lied to by Republicans for decades. They say what they want to hear during an campaign, then do almost none of it while in office. The sex scandals by pols like David Vitter haven't helped.

As far as I can tell, Trump's primary allure comes in that he's bold/crazy enough to do the things that he said he would during the campaign. The first few weeks of his presidency confirmed as much. That, along with the elevated hysteria from the media and Hollywood, actually endears him more to his supporters, as it gives them yet another rally point to get behind.

It's a lot more complicated than that, but perhaps that makes sense?
Interesting video by a priest relating a premonition by the "Hermit of Loreto" (5:30 mark) The Church has not made any comments on this.



I can hear the screams
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Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
It's probably partly a reaction to my parents' (and what seems to be the most common or at least vocal) brand of judgemental, anti-intellectual, insular Christianity, absent of love and compassion for society's cast-outs (you know, the people that Jesus spent basically all of his time with). They're concerned with following the rules and shaming, punishing, or at least delighting in the downfall of "sinners," and it's important that everyone see them in their self-righteousness, whether it's via obnoxious bumper stickers, Facebook posts, or snide comments made "friendly" company. It's almost like those type of people existed in the Bible and when Jesus wasn't spending time with prostitutes, tax collectors, and the unclean, he was railing on the pharisees for completely missing the point.

I'm still active in a local congregation and though our doctrines may not line up completely, I appreciate what they choose to stress and the work they do in the community, with significant outreach to the local homeless population, a mentorship program for at-risk and local immigrant youth, and campaigns that stock every food pantry in the region.



In the history of the world, this is a fairly recent concept, no? The age of consent hovered anywhere from 8-12 years old until the last few hundred years. Isn't saying a "normally wired adult" trying to claim today's societal standards as "normal?"


Exactly, and this is why I don't understand why people like Chongo seem so comfortable with the right wing, which seems to have embraced this meme-form version of Jesus (right column):

     
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Feb 21, 2017, 11:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Exactly, and this is why I don't understand why people like Chongo seem so comfortable with the right wing, which seems to have embraced this meme-form version of Jesus (right column):

Nice try.
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Feb 21, 2017, 12:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Nice try.
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Feb 21, 2017, 12:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Except that he has argued exactly that. Taken from here:

So yeah, he not only thinks age of consent laws are policy positions of “the Left”, but claims that they are oppressive because they are “one size fits all”. Judging by his comments on the Joe Rogan Podcast his attitude towards such inappropriate sexual relationships is very similar to that of my former colleague:

Edit: Milo claims in a video message that he was merely joking as a way to talk about his experience. If that's his way of coping, I think he still needs more therapy.

People who engage in inappropriate relationships aren't mentors, that person does not act in the best interests of (mostly) his (but also her) mentee. A mentor could be the gay teacher who sees the struggle the kid is in and talks to him. Or a slightly older student who puts him or her in touch with some other gay kids, i. e. peers.
The following quote is from the same interview.

Milo: The law is probably about right, that’s probably roughly the right age. I think it’s probably about okay.


As for mentorship, Milo champions the extreme option because of a lack of other options. Again, Milo defended the situation as preferable to suicide. If those people could avail themselves of better options, they would. It should also be noted a sexual relationship isn't always the plan. Throwing together horny people who care about each other has been known to lead to loosened boundaries.
     
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Feb 21, 2017, 04:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW
And word on the street is that he will likely get dumped from his editor position at Breitbart.com as well.
And it's a wrap on this dude.

Milo Yiannopoulos resigns from Breitbart amid child sex storm | CNN.com

OAW
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Feb 21, 2017, 04:56 PM
 
Despite me being the one here defending him, holy shit are those some just desserts.
     
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Feb 21, 2017, 05:04 PM
 
My secret hope is he got tired of being an asshole. I understand in reality he's an okay guy.
     
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Feb 21, 2017, 05:09 PM
 
Milo is weird in that a lot of the things he says make a lot of sense but you have to really listen to get to those bits, he buries in them in stupid controversial BS and most of them still don't gel all that well with the company he tends to keep.
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Feb 21, 2017, 06:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
See the unedited video for yourself. Start at the 1:02:00 mark.

*snip*

PS: Milo apparently holds the view that "pedophilia" is only when an adult has sexual contact with a kid who hasn't reached puberty. I submit most people consider that to be a "distinction without a difference".
So? Where were your pitchforks when George Takei said the same thing, and Lena Dunham was even worse. This isn't an issue with a specific person, it's indicative of what is being normalized within the LGBTQ community. What they've lived through, dealing with the "predators" in those movements (which appear to be rather common), has made them what they are.

and strictly speaking he's right, hebephilia is attraction to young adults, teens, it's not pedophilia, the attraction to prepubescent kids. Less than a century ago young teen ladies were married off quickly, often to 20-something y/o men. My own grandmother was 13 when she married my grandfather (27) and had her first child at 14, and by all accounts was very mature for her age. Is this a good thing today? NO, largely because we coddle our kids until they reach college age, and beyond.
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