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Page 1: Syria; All Other Pages: Partisan Bickering
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Games Meister
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Apr 6, 2017, 10:43 PM
 
Have a feeling we may need a thread.

IMO nothings changed between when Obama was in office and now. There are no easy answers there. Likely, there are no good answers there. Just like Obama, Trump is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.
     
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Apr 7, 2017, 07:43 AM
 
Well, what do you think, would you justify Trump's order of the cruise missile strike? Why/why not?
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OAW
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Apr 7, 2017, 08:53 AM
 
I think this speaks volumes.





Syrian military officials appeared to anticipate Thursday's night raid on Syria's Shayrat airbase, evacuating personnel and moving equipment ahead of the strike, according to an eyewitness to the strike.
Former National Security Adviser and ABC News contributor Richard Clarke said this attack, one of the quickest displays of force by a new president in recent history, is largely "symbolic."

Following a 2013 chemical weapons attack that killed more than 1400 people outside of Damascus which a U.S. government intelligence assessment concluded likely used a nerve agent, the Obama administration threatened retaliation but ultimately called off planned airstrikes after Assad agreed to turn over the majority of his chemical weapons arsenal to an international watchdog group. Trump has attempted to blame Obama's "weakness" for the worsening violence in Syria.

"This attack on one air base seems more symbolic," Clarke said. "I think Secretary of Defense [General] James Mattis gave the president a list of options, this being the smallest. It was a targeted attack not designed to overwhelm the Syrian military ... I think the president was trying to differentiate himself from his predecessor."
Eyewitness says Syrian military anticipated U.S. raid - ABC News

OAW
     
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Apr 7, 2017, 09:03 AM
 
Russia tipped them off.
     
Games Meister
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Apr 7, 2017, 09:19 AM
 
More importantly Russia said they will rebuild Syrias defenses to better repel future air strikes. That has me grimacing.
     
Games Meister
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Apr 7, 2017, 09:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
The thing is his first tweet is reasonable and the second is just fiction. In true Trump form they're all over the place.

I'm more concerned that he might be encouraged towards more aggressive behavior if his approval rating jumps from the action. And in what is a fascinating dichotomy, his deplorables ate absolutely livid about the missile strikes. So I suppose there's a chance his approval goes further down.
     
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Apr 7, 2017, 09:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by And.reg View Post
Well, what do you think, would you justify Trump's order of the cruise missile strike? Why/why not?
You first, chief.
     
OAW
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Apr 7, 2017, 09:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Russia tipped them off.
Of course Russia tipped them off. Trump gave his buddy Putin a heads up beforehand. So much for that "element of surprise" thing he kept crticising Obama about on the campaign trail. And at $832K per cruise missile the 59 missile strike cost US taxpayers a good $49 million. A good third of the NEA budget Trump wants to eliminate altogether. All so he can launch this W.M.D. ..... Weapon of Mass DISTRACTION to change the media narrative about potential Russian collusion with the Trump campaign and his historically terrible approval ratings.

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Apr 7, 2017, 09:54 AM
 
It was completely prudent for Trump to warn Russia. You're looking at an international incident if the US air strike accidentally kills Russian troops.
     
OAW
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Apr 7, 2017, 12:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It was completely prudent for Trump to warn Russia. You're looking at an international incident if the US air strike accidentally kills Russian troops.
I'm certainly not disagreeing with that. I'm just saying that this is a "symbolic" move that's designed to bolster Trump politically. It's certainly NOT designed to alter the landscape on the ground in Syria militarily.

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Apr 7, 2017, 12:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I'm certainly not disagreeing with that. I'm just saying that this is a "symbolic" move that's designed to bolster Trump politically. It's certainly NOT designed to alter the landscape on the ground in Syria militarily.

OAW
Isn't politics exactly how we're going to alter the landscape on the ground in Syria?
     
Games Meister
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Apr 7, 2017, 12:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I'm certainly not disagreeing with that. I'm just saying that this is a "symbolic" move that's designed to bolster Trump politically. It's certainly NOT designed to alter the landscape on the ground in Syria militarily.

OAW
Yes, cynically one could argue he did this to differentiate himself from Obama. And also his past self. Ugh.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Isn't politics exactly how we're going to alter the landscape on the ground in Syria?
I don't see how we can solve someone else's civil war with politics. Let alone with Russia and ISIS being a factor.
     
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Apr 7, 2017, 02:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It was completely prudent for Trump to warn Russia. You're looking at an international incident if the US air strike accidentally kills Russian troops.
There is a Russian naval base at Tartus, presumably with lots of AAA, and the cruise missiles would have passed very close by them. The Israelis got advance notice for the same reason - to avoid shooting at the missiles in flight.
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Apr 7, 2017, 02:08 PM
 
There you go, something I wouldn't know.
     
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Apr 7, 2017, 02:30 PM
 
Is there a reading Spicer would insist on today's press briefing being off camera?
     
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Apr 7, 2017, 02:45 PM
 
He wanted to lounge in his boxers?
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Apr 7, 2017, 03:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Isn't politics exactly how we're going to alter the landscape on the ground in Syria?
Absolutely not.

At the end of the day Obama's strategy in Syria was the best approach in a situation that has no good options. The US has no significant strategic interests in Syria. Our main goal is to prevent ISIL from taking over. OTOH, both Russia and Iran have vital strategic interests there. It's Russia's only naval base in the Middle East. And it's only other warm-water naval base besides the one in Crimea. Hence why they are willing to use military force in both situations. For Iran the Syrian regime is a natural ally since the Alawites that comprise it are a sect of Shia Islam. But more importantly Syria serves as a conduit for Iranian military support to Hezbollah in Lebanon. Another Shia organization and the most effective Arab military force in the Middle East. This is why you see both Iranian Revolutionary Guard and Hezbollah forces fighting in Syria in support of the Assad regime. So Obama's approach was "strategic stalemate". Keep Russia and Iran pinned down in a long-term conflict in the Syrian theater which weakens them in the region as a whole while avoiding getting sucked into direct military involvement where the US would have to expend its own "blood and treasure". But when the US starts lobbing missiles things have the potential to get out of hand. We can easily look up and find ourselves sucked into another war in the Middle East. Which would be a terrible outcome over actions designed to bolster Trump's dismal approval ratings and distract from the media investigations into potential Russian collusion with his campaign.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Apr 7, 2017 at 03:40 PM. )
     
Games Meister
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Apr 7, 2017, 03:32 PM
 
Reuters reports Syria is already flying missions out of the targeted airfield. That's... discouraging.
     
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Apr 7, 2017, 03:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Reuters reports Syria is already flying missions out of the targeted airfield. That's... discouraging.
Totally expected. The goal was never to weaken the Assad regime!

Syrian warplanes carried out attacks from the central Syrian air base several hours after it was hit by a U.S. missile strike, the Daily Star reported on Friday.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said that two warplanes "took off from inside the Shayrat base, which is partially back in service, and struck targets near Palmyra," according to the report.

The AFP news agency also reported the news on Twitter.
Syrian jets carry out attacks from base hours after US missile strike: report | TheHill

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Apr 7, 2017, 04:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
There you go, something I wouldn't know.
That base is at least 80% of the reason for Putin's support of Assad. Russia wants to have a navy in the Mediterranean. There are three ways in, all of them potentially blocked to the Russians in the event of a war - Gibraltar and the Bosporus are controlled by NATO members, and the long way round through the Suez is controlled by long-term US ally Egypt.

The Soviet Union used to have several bases in the region, but they have been kicked out of all of them. They have no real bases on the southern half of the globe to have real access through Suez even if they could install a friendly power there, so that base at Tarsus is vital to them. The alternative is flipping Turkey, which Putin is clearly working on as well.
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Apr 7, 2017, 04:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Totally expected. The goal was never to weaken the Assad regime!

OAW
I'm not that cynical. Though I'm left asking how hard it is to make runways inoperable.
     
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Apr 7, 2017, 04:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm not that cynical. Though I'm left asking how hard it is to make runways inoperable.
If you hit the runway in multiple places the craters keep aircraft from being able to take off and land. But that's relatively easy to repair within a day or so. So the fact that Syria was conducting sorties from this airfield within HOURS means that either the runway was missed ... or it wasn't targeted. Now consider the fact that 59 precision cruise missiles were launched at the airfield and ask yourself which is the more likely scenario?

The Tomahawk land-attack cruise missile remains a technical marvel more than two decades after its major debut in the first Gulf War. It can fly under most radar for more than 1,000 miles and detonate within feet of its intended targets.
Cruise missiles are accurate but are they effective? | USAToday.com

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Apr 7, 2017, 11:17 PM
 
IIUC, the state-of-the-art in runway bombs needs to be dropped from a plane, but then it's screwed. They don't just make a crater, they plow up several hundred feet of runway, and scatter anti-personnel mines to kill repair crews.
     
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Apr 8, 2017, 12:15 AM
 
^^^

But to do all that requires the will to risk sending in aircraft. And again, this ain't about diminishing the Assad regime militarily.

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Apr 8, 2017, 12:26 AM
 
Oh... I wasn't really making any commentary, just filling in the blank on how we go about trashing a runway.
     
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Apr 8, 2017, 07:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Oh... I wasn't really making any commentary, just filling in the blank on how we go about trashing a runway.
Yes, thanks. I wouldn't have risked sending in a plane either.
     
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Apr 8, 2017, 08:05 PM
 
Obama was dealing with a situation where America was sick of military expenditure after Afghanistan, Iraq and then Libya. Trump gets a reset of sorts as the new guy, plus he's a Republican so its more expected that you'll invade places and bomb things. He also probably figured it would help his low popularity by making him look tough against an evil war criminal, and of course its all a big distraction from half his cabinet getting impeached for talking the the Russians without the authority to do so.

Trump also bumped military spending so maybe he figured he better justify it.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Apr 9, 2017, 07:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Obama was dealing with a situation where America was sick of military expenditure after Afghanistan, Iraq and then Libya. Trump gets a reset of sorts as the new guy, plus he's a Republican so its more expected that you'll invade places and bomb things. He also probably figured it would help his low popularity by making him look tough against an evil war criminal, and of course its all a big distraction from half his cabinet getting impeached for talking the the Russians without the authority to do so.

Trump also bumped military spending so maybe he figured he better justify it.
I disagree with pretty much everything you said.
     
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Apr 9, 2017, 08:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Absolutely not.
Then how come everything you said down there outlines a political solution as "the best approach"?

At the end of the day Obama's strategy in Syria was the best approach in a situation that has no good options.
Perhaps then we shouldn't be warning the world of a red line to be crossed.

The US has no significant strategic interests in Syria. Our main goal is to prevent ISIL from taking over.
These two statements directly contradict one another.

OTOH, both Russia and Iran have vital strategic interests there. It's Russia's only naval base in the Middle East. And it's only other warm-water naval base besides the one in Crimea. Hence why they are willing to use military force in both situations. For Iran the Syrian regime is a natural ally since the Alawites that comprise it are a sect of Shia Islam. But more importantly Syria serves as a conduit for Iranian military support to Hezbollah in Lebanon. Another Shia organization and the most effective Arab military force in the Middle East. This is why you see both Iranian Revolutionary Guard and Hezbollah forces fighting in Syria in support of the Assad regime. So Obama's approach was "strategic stalemate".
i.e. a political solution, one that plunged the country into a bitter civil war and cost the lives of hundreds of thousands.

Do you even remember how the Syrian war started?

Keep Russia and Iran pinned down in a long-term conflict in the Syrian theater which weakens them in the region as a whole while avoiding getting sucked into direct military involvement where the US would have to expend its own "blood and treasure".
So why all the airstrikes then? We certainly have expended quite a bit of gold in Syria.

But when the US starts lobbing missiles things have the potential to get out of hand.
Um, we've been performing airstrikes in Syria for years. m,l

We can easily look up and find ourselves sucked into another war in the Middle East.
So let the syrians die during the war, then when russia and assad prevail consign them to another indefinite period of suffering, poverty, and human rights abuses? Great strategy there, especially for the Nobel peace prize winner himself.

Which would be a terrible outcome over actions designed to bolster Trump's dismal approval ratings and distract from the media investigations into potential Russian collusion with his campaign.
Blah blah blah Trump ergggmhb;grd republicans.
     
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Apr 9, 2017, 09:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Obama was dealing with a situation where America was sick of military expenditure after Afghanistan, Iraq and then Libya. Trump gets a reset of sorts as the new guy, plus he's a Republican so its more expected that you'll invade places and bomb things. He also probably figured it would help his low popularity by making him look tough against an evil war criminal, and of course its all a big distraction from half his cabinet getting impeached for talking the the Russians without the authority to do so.

Trump also bumped military spending so maybe he figured he better justify it.
Of course it's a big distraction; Drumpf does that all the time, to try to get people from focusing on his relationship with his boyfriend, Putin. Where you are factually wrong is that Cheetohead hasn't bumped military spending; he's proposed doing so, but he hasn't actually gotten a budget through Congress yet. He would love to do so, but I question if he's going to be around long enough to accomplish that. He certainly hasn't accomplished anything of substance yet, other than signing a lot of mostly toothless executive orders, and causing many of his supporters to realize he's a grifter and America is his mark.
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Apr 9, 2017, 10:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I disagree with pretty much everything you said.

I didn't think I said anything particularly out there.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Apr 10, 2017, 12:43 AM
 
I found the MSM praising Trump over the attack, even waxing poetic over the destruction, to be moderately nauseating.
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Apr 10, 2017, 08:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
Of course it's a big distraction; Drumpf does that all the time, to try to get people from focusing on his relationship with his boyfriend, Putin. Where you are factually wrong is that Cheetohead hasn't bumped military spending; he's proposed doing so, but he hasn't actually gotten a budget through Congress yet. He would love to do so, but I question if he's going to be around long enough to accomplish that. He certainly hasn't accomplished anything of substance yet, other than signing a lot of mostly toothless executive orders, and causing many of his supporters to realize he's a grifter and America is his mark.
Well if he hasn't gotten it through yet, my point still stands that this could be an attempt to justify it.

I hope you're right about people realising he's just scamming the US government for every penny he can get.
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Apr 10, 2017, 08:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I found the MSM praising Trump over the attack, even waxing poetic over the destruction, to be moderately nauseating.

I was bored earlier and after reading an article about someone shooting himself at the NRA HQ on NBC Washington, I was answering those stupid questionnaires at the bottom of the article. I was a little surprised that something like 77% of respondents there were in favour of Trump bombing Syria without consulting congress.
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Apr 10, 2017, 10:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
We can easily look up and find ourselves sucked into another war in the Middle East. Which would be a terrible outcome over actions designed to bolster Trump's dismal approval ratings and distract from the media investigations into potential Russian collusion with his campaign.

OAW
MEDIA INVESTIGATIONS?! you just lost ANY credibility. The media in incapable of investigating anything. They are still in butthurt mode, and still whining whatever immature, ignorant BS they can. That you put any trust in them makes me wonder how easily you are fooled, and how easily the MSM speculations are dragging you around by the nose.
     
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Apr 10, 2017, 02:50 PM
 
According to a CBS poll 18% would be down with sending troops into Syria. I find that surprising for some reason.
     
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Apr 10, 2017, 08:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
According to a CBS poll 18% would be down with sending troops into Syria. I find that surprising for some reason.
Count me as part of the 82%.

I just don't think a stalemate while hundreds of thousands perish and millions are displaced to be any kind of solution either.


I don't see any kind of future for Syria while Assad remains in power.
I don't see any kind of future for Syria while ISIL remains a threat.
I don't see any kind of future for Syria without self determination.
I don't see any kind of future for Syria unless we (in the global sense) quit using it as a proxy for our geo political wars.


The cruise missiles were a shot across the bow. Whether or not they got the airfield operational again is irrelevant - we got their attention, which was the goal. It remains to be seen what we do with that from here.

EDIT: Does anyone have an updated map of who controls what territories within Syria as of recently?
     
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Apr 10, 2017, 09:12 PM
 
     
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Apr 11, 2017, 09:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Count me as part of the 82%.

I just don't think a stalemate while hundreds of thousands perish and millions are displaced to be any kind of solution either.


I don't see any kind of future for Syria while Assad remains in power.
I don't see any kind of future for Syria while ISIL remains a threat.
I don't see any kind of future for Syria without self determination.
I don't see any kind of future for Syria unless we (in the global sense) quit using it as a proxy for our geo political wars.


The cruise missiles were a shot across the bow. Whether or not they got the airfield operational again is irrelevant - we got their attention, which was the goal. It remains to be seen what we do with that from here.

EDIT: Does anyone have an updated map of who controls what territories within Syria as of recently?
I think wires are crossed here. You would support invading?
     
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Apr 11, 2017, 09:23 AM
 
https://www.apnews.com/19772be1238e49fbb62c509a5b659b3d

The Russians may have tried to cover up the attacks. Gross.
     
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Apr 11, 2017, 10:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
MEDIA INVESTIGATIONS?! you just lost ANY credibility. The media in incapable of investigating anything. They are still in butthurt mode, and still whining whatever immature, ignorant BS they can. That you put any trust in them makes me wonder how easily you are fooled, and how easily the MSM speculations are dragging you around by the nose.
Quick question - how much credibility do you think that you have?

And another one - do you recognize the irony in your continuing to attempt to mock people for being "dragged around by the nose" while only offering arguments and rebuttals fed to you by literally the mainstream media?
( Last edited by Laminar; Apr 11, 2017 at 10:34 AM. )
     
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Apr 11, 2017, 10:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
IIUC, the state-of-the-art in runway bombs needs to be dropped from a plane, but then it's screwed. They don't just make a crater, they plow up several hundred feet of runway, and scatter anti-personnel mines to kill repair crews.
The British developed a weapon, though it's illegal now due to the landmine treaty that has been signed by most nations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JP233
     
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Apr 11, 2017, 01:38 PM
 
On the bright side it doesn't look like the air strikes had any impact on Trumps approval
     
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Apr 11, 2017, 01:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I was bored earlier and after reading an article about someone shooting himself at the NRA HQ on NBC Washington, I was answering those stupid questionnaires at the bottom of the article. I was a little surprised that something like 77% of respondents there were in favour of Trump bombing Syria without consulting congress.
I'm not surprised that you still believe the results of online surveys, you think Hollywood plots are real, for ****'s sake.
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Apr 11, 2017, 01:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Quick question - how much credibility do you think that you have?
A good deal more than you.
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Apr 11, 2017, 02:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Quick question - how much credibility do you think that you have?

And another one - do you recognize the irony in your continuing to attempt to mock people for being "dragged around by the nose" while only offering arguments and rebuttals fed to you by literally the mainstream media?
So YOU still think the 'MSM' will do any real investigation? Jut look how butthurt they STILL are after believing Hillary was a shoe in.
Being lied to by the MSM! LOL

Respond to my points not some mindreading you think you can do.
     
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Apr 11, 2017, 02:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
A good deal more than you.
Yeah, I'd be willing to put that to a vote. Loser has to delete their account. How about it BadKosh?
     
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Apr 11, 2017, 02:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So YOU still think the 'MSM' will do any real investigation? Jut look how butthurt they STILL are after believing Hillary was a shoe in.
Being lied to by the MSM! LOL
To be clear, you define "mainstream media" as the media outlets that you believe have a political bias counter to your own political bias. The news sources where you get your news, well those are the only reliable news sources. Right?
     
Games Meister
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Apr 12, 2017, 12:05 AM
 
     
Addicted to MacNN
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Apr 12, 2017, 05:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I'm not surprised that you still believe the results of online surveys, you think Hollywood plots are real, for ****'s sake.
I didn't really say I believed it or not. Just that I was surprised. Quite often a surprising result is a reason to doubt it.

You got a bug up your ass after your own suggestion several years ago that I can't tell the difference between a movie and real life and you've stuck to it ever since. Ironic given some of your own laughable life stories.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
 
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