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And now it's our turn... UK election thread of partisan shouting!
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Apr 18, 2017, 09:49 AM
 
So a snap UKland election. Smart move by May. A hugely enhanced majority looks on the cards. Labour are nowhere near having a coherent message and everyone still hates the LibDems over tuition fees. So.

Initial predictions

Conservative win with large majority, possibly as big as Thatchers biggest
Labour annihilation and Corbyn goes for failing to win unwinnable election. Help by a deliberately self destructing team determined to blow themselves apart to get rid of him
Scotland stays a Tory free zone and referendum calls are strengthened.
     
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Apr 18, 2017, 10:36 AM
 
Not a local, but IIUC Labour needs to vote for the new election according to the new fixed term law pushed by Clegg (during the first Cameron government). So Labour will vote for this snap election, apparently. Just how insane is Corbyn? Does he think that he can somehow win? Labour had a hard time winning when they got all of Scotland, and right now it looks like they will get exactly zero seats there, possibly one if they're lucky. Is Corbyn just really really bad at math or something?
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Apr 18, 2017, 11:12 AM
 
WOW! This should be interesting. I don't know much about real UK politics. Will it get as ugly as US politics?
     
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Apr 18, 2017, 11:28 AM
 
Generally less dirty tricks, but really, it is hard to predict right now. About half the country didn't want a Brexit to begin with, and certainly want a soft Brexit if they have to have one. Tories aren't selling that, so where should they go? Labour? Eh... no. Corbyn has gone way far out on the fringe to attract anyone who voted Con last time. Lib Dem? Maaaybe... but people still seem pissed off at them. Any of the smaller parties? This might be a free-for-all.
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Apr 18, 2017, 12:07 PM
 
I can't imagine it getting anywhere near US levels of vitriol, but it certainly could be one of the the ugliest elections we have had. Brexit will cast some shadow over the debate.

P- yes, technically May now needs to overturn the fixed term rule via a vote but she has a majority so Corbyn couldn't stop her even if he wanted to. Only a few years ago the Tories were putting this rule in place to stop opportunist snap elections and yet here we are suddenly.

I don't think we will have the same fake news/news issues (or not to the same degree) as in teh US elections. People here broadly trust the major outlets (BBC, ITN, Channel 4) to be fairly bi-partisan, but we will see.
     
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Apr 18, 2017, 01:46 PM
 
Needs 2/3 majority vote to allow it the GE to go forward. Like Brexit should have.

I think people are looking for somewhere to turn but we have no effective opposition at the moment. Labour are a bunch of bumbling oafs lead by a doomed man. No one else looks big enough or energised enough to make the required difference.
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Apr 18, 2017, 02:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
WOW! This should be interesting. I don't know much about real UK politics. Will it get as ugly as US politics?
Doc HM is just fake news, ignore what he says.
     
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Apr 18, 2017, 04:41 PM
 
I hope the republicans win
     
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Apr 18, 2017, 04:54 PM
 
My understanding is Labour leader Corbyn makes the DNC look like a sophisticated outfit.
     
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Apr 18, 2017, 05:13 PM
 
Pretty much. He wants to scrap our nuclear deterrent to pay to prop up failing steel mills and so forth.
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Apr 18, 2017, 07:40 PM
 
I'm not convinced this is a sure winner for May. I'd agree the most likely outcome is an increased Tory majority, but I don't think it will be significant. I expect the Lib Dems will increase their numbers at the expense of Conservatives and Labour by running as the anti-brexit party, drawing on the same forces that took down Zach Goldsmith. Labour will lose big, but I'd say it's only 50-50 Corbyn goes. He and his supporters seem delusional enough for him to cling to power. And even if he goes, the next Labour leader will be one of Momentum's choosing. The SNP doesn't have scope to gain more that three seats, so they are probably treading water. Plaid Cymru may pick up a few, as well as Sinn Féin. UKIP will get nothing and the Greens will probably hold the one seat they have. I'm curious what will happen to Douglass Carswell (used to be the lone UKIP MP - left the party a few weeks back and in now an Independent). I'm sure he will not be selected as a Tory- so probably gone.

I predict the biggest winners will be the Lib Dems. Even though people are still angry about tuition fees, pretty much all the architects of the coalition are gone and Nick Clegg seems to have been rehabilitated a bit by the anti-Brexit sentiment.

So I could be wrong, but I don't think May is going to get the mandate she is hoping for.
     
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Apr 18, 2017, 08:33 PM
 
I certainly hope you're right.
Corbyn's fans are really quite rabid about him. I don't understand it. I did before he screwed the pooch over Brexit and revealed himself to be as big a liar as every other politician.

The Lib Dems need media coverage and lots of it. If they get it, they'll do very well.
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Apr 18, 2017, 09:58 PM
 
In principle, I think it is good to give voters a chance to determine what Brexit actually means, and what the parameters of the deals are the UK government should strive for. But I don't think there is enough time for the parties to flesh out some details, and I think it would have been more democratic to let the major parties figure out their version of Brexit before invoking Article 50. The fact that the dividing lines between pro-Brexit and Remain run through the established parties makes it all the more difficult (save for UKIP, of course, which seems to selfdestruct at the moment, and the SNP which nobody but Scots can vote for).

Under these parameters, I think the most likely outcome is that the Tories will gain seats and Theresa May will sell that as a strong vote in favor of her flavor of Brexit, but that like the GOP in the US they actually have no idea what Brexit actually means. It will be a pyrrhic victory for her and her government, the Brexit negotiations will not be won on the basis of appearances.

To the Brits here: What is the discussion on Brexit like? It doesn't seem as if the May government takes a lot of the concerns of the 48 % into account. What message are the Tories sending to the people? And what is Corbyn's Labor party's position?
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Apr 19, 2017, 03:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
I'm not convinced this is a sure winner for May. I'd agree the most likely outcome is an increased Tory majority, but I don't think it will be significant. I expect the Lib Dems will increase their numbers at the expense of Conservatives and Labour by running as the anti-brexit party, drawing on the same forces that took down Zach Goldsmith. Labour will lose big, but I'd say it's only 50-50 Corbyn goes. He and his supporters seem delusional enough for him to cling to power. And even if he goes, the next Labour leader will be one of Momentum's choosing. The SNP doesn't have scope to gain more that three seats, so they are probably treading water. Plaid Cymru may pick up a few, as well as Sinn Féin. UKIP will get nothing and the Greens will probably hold the one seat they have. I'm curious what will happen to Douglass Carswell (used to be the lone UKIP MP - left the party a few weeks back and in now an Independent). I'm sure he will not be selected as a Tory- so probably gone.

I predict the biggest winners will be the Lib Dems. Even though people are still angry about tuition fees, pretty much all the architects of the coalition are gone and Nick Clegg seems to have been rehabilitated a bit by the anti-Brexit sentiment.

So I could be wrong, but I don't think May is going to get the mandate she is hoping for.
This is very similar to my predictions, but I think that the Tories will gain some of those Labour seats and May will remain safe.

An interesting comment I saw elsewhere: If Corbyn were to step down, his friends are unlikely to get a successor they like, because whoever they pick needs the support of 15% of Labour MPs to be elgible for the general party vote. There is a proposal to change that rule, and it is thought to be because even Momentum realizes that Corbyn is dead in the water in a general election. They want to replace him with someone more like Milliband to keep the party out of the hands of the Blairites. This snap election comes before the rule change can go through, so Labour has to go to the general election with Corbyn at the helm.
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Apr 19, 2017, 04:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
In principle, I think it is good to give voters a chance to determine what Brexit actually means, and what the parameters of the deals are the UK government should strive for. But I don't think there is enough time for the parties to flesh out some details, and I think it would have been more democratic to let the major parties figure out their version of Brexit before invoking Article 50. The fact that the dividing lines between pro-Brexit and Remain run through the established parties makes it all the more difficult (save for UKIP, of course, which seems to selfdestruct at the moment, and the SNP which nobody but Scots can vote for).

Under these parameters, I think the most likely outcome is that the Tories will gain seats and Theresa May will sell that as a strong vote in favor of her flavor of Brexit, but that like the GOP in the US they actually have no idea what Brexit actually means. It will be a pyrrhic victory for her and her government, the Brexit negotiations will not be won on the basis of appearances.

To the Brits here: What is the discussion on Brexit like? It doesn't seem as if the May government takes a lot of the concerns of the 48 % into account. What message are the Tories sending to the people? And what is Corbyn's Labor party's position?


The 48% have been roundly ignored by everyone except the Lib Dems since the referendum.
A huge part of the problem is that TM won't tell anyone what her version of Brexit is. In terms of not revealing your wishlist in a negotiation, this is fair but she has apparently declared she will not take part in any debates before the election. This is solely to avoid having to give any policy details about anything at all. She seems to think everyone else is in such a mess that she can get a blank cheque mandate to whatever the hell she wants not just about Brexit but about everything.

Dangerous times. I can't stand the sight of her any more. I hope the 48% unite against her and this backfires spectacularly. I'm not sure it will, there isn't a big enough unifying voice behind it.
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Apr 19, 2017, 05:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
The 48% have been roundly ignored by everyone except the Lib Dems since the referendum.
I noticed that, from the outside looking in I have the impression that the remainers no longer get any coverage and aren't given much airtime in the debates. If the referendum had gone the other way, for sure the Brexiters would have pushed for concessions — after all, that seems to have been the initial intention of the referendum.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
A huge part of the problem is that TM won't tell anyone what her version of Brexit is. In terms of not revealing your wishlist in a negotiation, this is fair but she has apparently declared she will not take part in any debates before the election. This is solely to avoid having to give any policy details about anything at all. She seems to think everyone else is in such a mess that she can get a blank cheque mandate to whatever the hell she wants not just about Brexit but about everything.
I doubt she knows what her plan for Brexit is.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Dangerous times. I can't stand the sight of her any more. I hope the 48% unite against her and this backfires spectacularly. I'm not sure it will, there isn't a big enough unifying voice behind it.
Unfortunately, I doubt it will backfire. The opposition is weak due to infighting, and Theresa May to many probably seems to be the least worst option. Calling for an early election is a Mitch McConnel-type smart political move (albeit not the morally right one), May sees this as a chance to gain power and have this be interpreted as an even stronger vote for Brexit and “her Brexit plan” — despite promising there won't be any elections until 2020. Sad to say, but I think her plan is going to work.
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Apr 19, 2017, 05:46 AM
 
Oddly, I think there is a reasonable moral argument to be made for her calling the election, I just find it weird that she's not making it. Her main argument seems to be that the opposition parties are opposing her (duh) and she feels she wants/needs absolute power.

If you look at it differently though, she is a non-elected PM headed into the most important negotiations for the country in generations. I think her having a mandate from the country is the right choice. I didn't really understand her previous opposition to calling an early election.

But it does stink of opportunism and hypocrisy. Working against her are her past stance, her messaging that a second Scottish referendum would be an unacceptable distraction, her justification of the timetable of Brexit being part of the reasoning (when she set the timetable), and the utter chaos of Labour. It also comes a bit to near on the heels of Erdoğan's power grab in Turkey for there not to be a comparison.

I would like to clarify that I still predict the Torys will win with an increased majority, I just don't think it will be dramatic. Clearly Labour will be the big losers, but I think their losses will be distributed among other parties- not all ending up Blue.

Although now I wondering if Tim Farron's fumbling of the homosexuality question last night will have a knock-on effect on the Lib Dems prospects. I think the most likely scenario is that it will get lost in the shuffle of all the big news and screw-ups we can expect over the next seven weeks.
     
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Apr 19, 2017, 05:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
An interesting comment I saw elsewhere: If Corbyn were to step down, his friends are unlikely to get a successor they like, because whoever they pick needs the support of 15% of Labour MPs to be elgible for the general party vote.
Good call- forgot that detail in all the chaos. However, I would not be surprised that even when Labour inevitably gets shellacked in the election Corbyn hangs on to power for this very reason. He doesn't need an election to know the country (and the PLP) thinks he's a knob. He's a true believer and as long as he has the backing of the membership/Momentum/Unite, he may just hang around. Maybe it will lead to the fracturing of the Labour party and the emergence of a new entre-left opposition.

If he does step down and Momentum can't get their choice because of the 15% thing, chaos will ensue.

Good times.
     
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Apr 19, 2017, 07:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Generally less dirty tricks, but really, it is hard to predict right now. About half the country didn't want a Brexit to begin with, and certainly want a soft Brexit if they have to have one. Tories aren't selling that, so where should they go? Labour? Eh... no. Corbyn has gone way far out on the fringe to attract anyone who voted Con last time. Lib Dem? Maaaybe... but people still seem pissed off at them. Any of the smaller parties? This might be a free-for-all.
What's considered a "dirty trick"?

(This is more curiosity than challenge)
     
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Apr 19, 2017, 07:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Pretty much. He wants to scrap our nuclear deterrent to pay to prop up failing steel mills and so forth.
Scrap them from the air into China. Steel mill problem solved.
     
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Apr 19, 2017, 09:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What's considered a "dirty trick"?

(This is more curiosity than challenge)
Things like not holding a vote on Merrick Garland is what I'm thinking of. The UK political system is much more concerned with doing things the way they've always done them, debating the Select Vestries Bill and whatnot, and not about exploiting every comma in the constitution for political gain. The last few years have really shown me the advantage of that way of doing things.
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Apr 19, 2017, 09:29 AM
 
Gotcha.

I thought you were talking about campaign dirty tricks, which I imagine are probably less prevalent in the U.K. as well.
     
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Apr 19, 2017, 12:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Pretty much. He wants to scrap our nuclear deterrent to pay to prop up failing steel mills and so forth.
Not the context I meant but that is worrying on a whole different level.
     
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Apr 19, 2017, 01:50 PM
 
Can't see a use for Trident myself. Who would we melt? Why would we melt them? And anyway it's not a proper independent deterrent anyway, more a cash cow for Lockheed. We are told it is launchable without US approval but obviously no one is testing this. To actually hit anything it needs guidance form US satellites.

I am keen to see some clear blue water policies from Labour that would be surprisingly popular:

Rewind creeping NHS privatisation
Renationalise the railways
Renationalise the UK Adoption service (why is this even run by private companies??)
End zero hours contracts
Make the minimum wage the actual living wage
Fair rent legislation (in fact ANY coherent housing policy

The Lib Dems may drag Brexit up again but it's a done deal. The only option is to try to hog-tie TM for a softer Brexit.
     
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Apr 19, 2017, 01:53 PM
 
I am interested why the Labour Party seems so keen on the Election. Voting against repealing the fixed term act would have scuppered this until 2020. The only thing I can think of is that Corbyn knew his own party would have ignored him and voted for, seeing it as the fastest route to a post Corbyn party?
     
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Apr 19, 2017, 01:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Who would we melt?
Argentina.
     
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Apr 19, 2017, 10:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Can't see a use for Trident myself. Who would we melt? Why would we melt them? And anyway it's not a proper independent deterrent anyway, more a cash cow for Lockheed. We are told it is launchable without US approval but obviously no one is testing this. To actually hit anything it needs guidance form US satellites.
It gives us a seat at the table of nuclear powers. At the least this makes us the best voice of reason among the US, Russia, China, India and North Korea. The Japanese are also pretty sensible when it comes to nukes. I certainly don't want to be relying on Trump in these matters, do you?

I would think that finding extra ways of reducing our international clout would be the last thing we want alongside Brexit, wouldn't you?

Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
I am keen to see some clear blue water policies from Labour that would be surprisingly popular:

Rewind creeping NHS privatisation
Renationalise the railways
Renationalise the UK Adoption service (why is this even run by private companies??)
End zero hours contracts
Make the minimum wage the actual living wage
Fair rent legislation (in fact ANY coherent housing policy
Some nice ideas but one of the biggest issues with Corbyn wanting to axe Trident is that I suspect he has already spent the money a few dozen times over, just like Brexiteers did with all that (non-existent) EU cash.

Increasing minimum wage is a simple fix but its just going to cause a rise in the cost of everything that should defeat the object. Companies are already acting as buffers eating up the cost increases caused by Brexit so far. They can't eat another 25-50% rise in labour costs. The alternative being that the 3 year delay already anticipated on not booting out the unskilled European workforce will need to be extended by another 3, making Brexit even less worthwhile than it already is.

Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
The Lib Dems may drag Brexit up again but it's a done deal. The only option is to try to hog-tie TM for a softer Brexit.
This attitude is something I'm seeing across the board and I really don't like it. May and Corbyn between them have co-opted the media and in turn a huge proportion of other people into thinking this whole farce is past the point of no return. It isn't.
It is frankly irresponsible for any leader to rule out what might well end up being the country's most sensible option but this is precisely what has happened. Is it really the "best deal for Britain" if we have to swap access to the single market for straighter bananas? Then lose Scotland as a result?
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Apr 20, 2017, 03:57 AM
 
I can't imagine the US, China or Russia having more than the tintiestt thought for us, nukes or no nukes. Trident doesn't make us a player. Being one of the worlds largest economies makes us a player.

Currently we have the mad situation where low wages and high rents mean that average wage earning are effectively subsidising the profits of companies as the benefits system tops up unrealistically low wages. I would rather Next or Tesco pay a realistic salary than a large part of my tax go in housing benefit and income support. That and the shortterminsm, lack of wage security and hopelessness engendered by low wages and (particularly) zero hours contracts, I think, are significant contributors to the UK's "mysterious" productivity problem. As well as being social cancers
     
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Apr 20, 2017, 04:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
This attitude is something I'm seeing across the board and I really don't like it. May and Corbyn between them have co-opted the media and in turn a huge proportion of other people into thinking this whole farce is past the point of no return. It isn't.
It is frankly irresponsible for any leader to rule out what might well end up being the country's most sensible option but this is precisely what has happened. Is it really the "best deal for Britain" if we have to swap access to the single market for straighter bananas? Then lose Scotland as a result?
It would be nice to think we could somehow get another vote once we know the final deal, but there isn't a mechanism to do so, and the EU would probably regard it as time wasting of the highest order on our part. I voted to remain, but I think that for a lot of people this "hard" brexit IS actually what they meant when they voted out.
     
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Apr 20, 2017, 05:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
It would be nice to think we could somehow get another vote once we know the final deal, but there isn't a mechanism to do so, and the EU would probably regard it as time wasting of the highest order on our part. I voted to remain, but I think that for a lot of people this "hard" brexit IS actually what they meant when they voted out.
Plus, I think it'd be quite likely that the deal would be rejected by different people for different reasons, since any agreement with the EU will by its very nature be a compromise, one that I think would not satisfy Remainers because moves too far away from the EU and hard Brexiters alike.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
This attitude is something I'm seeing across the board and I really don't like it. May and Corbyn between them have co-opted the media and in turn a huge proportion of other people into thinking this whole farce is past the point of no return. It isn't.
It is frankly irresponsible for any leader to rule out what might well end up being the country's most sensible option but this is precisely what has happened. Is it really the "best deal for Britain" if we have to swap access to the single market for straighter bananas? Then lose Scotland as a result?
I find it quite odd how this is discussed in the UK (at least the bits and pieces that make it to Japan): it is as if Remainers (who are frequently and patronizingly called Remoaners) had made up only a tiny sliver of the population, and I don't see them being represented in the discussion nor is there any clear political party that they could cast their vote for. The expectation by many Brexiters seems to be that they fall in line since they lost a democratic vote. If you had substituted Brexit with any other charged topic, there would be zero expectation that the share who lost the last vote just shut up and disappear from the political stage. Even “softening” the Brexit by selectively keeping some ties to the EU seems offensive and is portrayed as “undemocratic”.
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Apr 20, 2017, 05:45 AM
 
So I have a question to the Brits here, especially the ones who wanted the UK to remain an EU member: In your mind, what should Europeans do? As a German, I have to say I am torn. It is clear that Theresa May will drive a hard bargain, so part of me wants the European side to reciprocate — also because the wound that Brexit has caused will need to be cauterized so as to protect the integrity of the EU. I have very little sympathy for the May governments shenanigans and rather obvious chess moves in an attempt to improve her negotiating position. On the other, if also the EU takes a hard stance, Britain will suffer, something that I don't see being in my interest either.
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Apr 20, 2017, 07:48 AM
 
I think on the whole there's really only one of two ways to jump. Accept free movement or not. Hard or soft Brexit falls either side of that and Theresa May seems determined to pin her flag to the no free movement side. This pretty much means no free trade etc. I would be happy to see the EU stick to this, not so much for Britain but as you say to protect the integrity of the EU as a whole. Brexiting is our own fault so the UK must deal with the economic fall out of a hard brexit and our politicians will have to face up to the consequences of their ineptitude in ending up in this position in the first place.
If we pick and choose our exit I can foresee this resulting in stronger calls from other countries to leave and a weaker EU afterwards.
     
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Apr 20, 2017, 07:44 PM
 
Theresa May has no hard bargain to drive. Soft Brexit isn't really a possibility for any of us because its not discernibly different from staying in. The whole debacle would be 99% pointless if we stayed in the common market and kept free movement.

I'm also supportive of the EU protecting itself by playing hardball. They hold all the cards as far as I am concerned and there is a petty part of me that wants them to punish us just to teach our idiot Brexiters how wrong they were. Personally, it won't affect me that much more than it already has. Some prices have gone up. I suspect more will too but there is plenty of room for me to reduce my existing food bill. A lot of the people who voted for Brexit will be hit really hard when their weekly grocery and gas bills shoot up.

I also think that if enough impact can be made on our public fast enough, Brexit can still be undone. The EU would be thrilled if we overturned the decision, its just a question of us finding some politicians with the balls/sense to suggest it at the right time.
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Apr 21, 2017, 05:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Theresa May has no hard bargain to drive. Soft Brexit isn't really a possibility for any of us because its not discernibly different from staying in. The whole debacle would be 99% pointless if we stayed in the common market and kept free movement.
I'm not sure this is so easy: there are plenty of programs that non-EU countries (Switzerland comes to mind) can participate in without being a member of the common market. One example are some of the EU's scientific programs, something the UK's universities are particularly dependent on. There are also other issues such as the nature of the Irish and Gibraltar's borders post-Brexit. Furthermore, the UK could selectively accept certain EU laws to facilitate trade (something Switzerland does as well). Other factors could be preferable treatment for EU citizens when it comes to things like immigration.

So I think there is leeway in what the post-Brexit relation of the UK to the EU looks like even if the UK will split from the common market.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I'm also supportive of the EU protecting itself by playing hardball. They hold all the cards as far as I am concerned and there is a petty part of me that wants them to punish us just to teach our idiot Brexiters how wrong they were. Personally, it won't affect me that much more than it already has. Some prices have gone up. I suspect more will too but there is plenty of room for me to reduce my existing food bill. A lot of the people who voted for Brexit will be hit really hard when their weekly grocery and gas bills shoot up.

I also think that if enough impact can be made on our public fast enough, Brexit can still be undone. The EU would be thrilled if we overturned the decision, its just a question of us finding some politicians with the balls/sense to suggest it at the right time.
I think there will inevitably be some lag between Brexit and the public in the UK feeling the impact. It'll be curious to see whether pressure from continental Europe's industry with investments in the UK will lead to some compromises, though.
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Apr 21, 2017, 06:30 AM
 
I think Gibraltar is a mostly empty threat. Spain is more worried about the airport than sovereignty.
I feel like certain boats are already being missed. Science is one of them, EU agencies are another. Various talents and skills are flooding out ahead of time so even if we reversed it tomorrow we'd have lost out in some ways.

What the UK really wants is free movement with quotas. They aren't going to get that.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Apr 21, 2017, 10:09 AM
 
So just back from a rally in town with Jeremy Corbyn.
An excellent speech with good strong socially minded policies. The single advantage he has is that when people actually here what the party is saying they like what they here.
I am kind of thinking that more so even than themedia it will be 200 odd PLP MPs that do most of TMs work for her.
     
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Apr 21, 2017, 08:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I think Gibraltar is a mostly empty threat. Spain is more worried about the airport than sovereignty.
That wasn't what I wanted to bring across: Gibraltar — just like the two Irelands — needs a more flexible border arrangement, and in Gibraltar's case, mostly for the British population living there. I remember visiting Gibraltar in ~1996, and it was a pain to pass the border.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I feel like certain boats are already being missed. Science is one of them, EU agencies are another. Various talents and skills are flooding out ahead of time so even if we reversed it tomorrow we'd have lost out in some ways.
That's true. An Italian friend of mine who has been working in the UK for quite a few years applied for jobs post-Brexit. One of the companies took him, but wanted to relocate him to Berlin. I think a lot of companies are very cautious and while not relocating their operations from the UK, they aren't expanding them either.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
What the UK really wants is free movement with quotas. They aren't going to get that.
Yup. Not. Going. To. Happen.
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Apr 21, 2017, 08:57 PM
 
Fun fact: most Americans think Gibraltar is an island.
     
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Apr 21, 2017, 10:18 PM
 
True in my case. Not only did I think it was an island, I assumed as the rock guarding the entry to the Mediterranean, it was in the Strait of Gibraltar between Spain and Morocco. Turns out it's not even the closest point - a different point on the southern Spanish coast is closest to Morocco.
     
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Apr 21, 2017, 10:55 PM
 
Indeed.



Not only did I not know there was a closer point to Africa, in my mind, I had it on the ocean side of the strait.
     
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Apr 22, 2017, 11:04 AM
 
This actually leads me to think what ironically makes Gibraltar a hot piece of property is how hard it would be to attack from land.
     
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Apr 22, 2017, 06:20 PM
 
It's a funny place: the airport runway is, if no planes are landing, just part of a regular road. The most famous tourist attraction are the monkeys who live on top of the rock from which you have a great view on the strait.
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Apr 23, 2017, 06:33 AM
 
So this mornings Labour headline is... 4 new bank holidays!! Insane. With so many weak points to press the Tories on THIS is what Labour are pushing today. So inconsequential. I can't believe the central planners could even consider this.
     
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Apr 23, 2017, 09:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This actually leads me to think what ironically makes Gibraltar a hot piece of property is how hard it would be to attack from land.
That and the fact that height means better range for artillery. The rock itself is the highest point locally, I believe, which means that it controlled the area from the invention of accurate artillery. Land based artillery always has an advantage over sea based, so it would take overwhelming force to capture it with 18th-19th century weaponry.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Apr 23, 2017, 11:28 AM
 
Another thing which didn't occur to me.

Looking at it from afar, getting up on the rock seems like more trouble than I imagine it actually is.
     
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Apr 23, 2017, 11:31 AM
 
As cool as Gibraltar is, I'd still trade it in for a Hong Kong.
     
   
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