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-   -   Next gen graphics: 720p60 vs 1080p30 (http://forums.macnn.com/77/gaming/497631/next-gen-graphics-720p60-vs-1080p30/)

 
The Final Dakar Jan 29, 2013 04:35 PM
Next gen graphics: 720p60 vs 1080p30
I popped it MW2 this weekend and was once again astounded by how buttery smooth the framerate is. While I wouldn't trade Battlefield's 30 (or lower) fps for MW2s gameplay, we do have the next generation to look forward to. So the question to you future console buyers, is what would you rather see? Better framerate or higher resolution?
 
Leonard Jan 29, 2013 08:54 PM
Where's the 1080p at 60 fps?
 
exca1ibur Jan 29, 2013 08:56 PM
1080p/60
 
Stogieman Jan 29, 2013 11:16 PM
480p (stretched) at 120 fps
 
The Final Dakar Jan 30, 2013 08:52 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by Leonard (Post 4214399)
Where's the 1080p at 60 fps?
Quote, Originally Posted by exca1ibur (Post 4214400)
1080p/60
You guys not familiar with the concept of tradeoffs? Most games right now don't run at 60 fps and most of them aren't even 720p.
 
Leonard Jan 30, 2013 11:57 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by The Final Dakar (Post 4214481)
You guys not familiar with the concept of tradeoffs? Most games right now don't run at 60 fps and most of them aren't even 720p.
Yeah, for the existing gen of consoles. For a new gen of consoles I expect a full 1080p at 60fps. If it can't do that they better go back to the drawing board.
 
exca1ibur Jan 30, 2013 12:12 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by Leonard (Post 4214514)
Yeah, for the existing gen of consoles. For a new gen of consoles I expect a full 1080p at 60fps. If it can't do that they better go back to the drawing board.
Exactly. The question was for 'next' generation consoles. Current generation promised 1080p gaming, and we got it in a a handful of games that did it, and only one I know that did 1080p/60 (Gran Turismo 5). So for the next generation that is suppose to be more powerful I expect a baseline to step up and deliver.
 
The Final Dakar Jan 30, 2013 12:25 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by Leonard (Post 4214514)
Yeah, for the existing gen of consoles. For a new gen of consoles I expect a full 1080p at 60fps. If it can't do that they better go back to the drawing board.
Quote, Originally Posted by exca1ibur (Post 4214520)
Exactly. The question was for 'next' generation consoles. Current generation promised 1080p gaming, and we got it in a a handful of games that did it, and only one I know that did 1080p/60 (Gran Turismo 5). So for the next generation that is suppose to be more powerful I expect a baseline to step up and deliver.
You guys may be disappointed. Pricing is a bigger priority this time around. If the PS4 debuted at $600 again, you'd have a point. It's not going to.
 
mattyb Jan 30, 2013 12:38 PM
I'll buy the next gen no matter what the spec is, just to be sure that I retain my Mr. Average classification.

Doubt that I'll ever play a game again on PC.
 
The Final Dakar Jan 30, 2013 12:44 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by exca1ibur (Post 4214520)
Current generation promised 1080p gaming, and we got it in a a handful of games that did it,
That's my point exactly. A lot of AAA titles weren't true 720p and even if they were, they weren't 60 fps. Hardware isn't going to take the same size leap this time round.
 
exca1ibur Jan 30, 2013 01:45 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by mattyb (Post 4214531)
I'll buy the next gen no matter what the spec is, just to be sure that I retain my Mr. Average classification.

Doubt that I'll ever play a game again on PC.
I game on mine more than I did before. I've been running 1920x1600 max everything for YEARS... My PC will always have a mark, more so as they try to lock down these consoles.

My big concern is how this rumored 'anti-used' technology stuff pans out. I'm watching that REAL carefully, as that will be a make or brake for me and console gaming.
 
exca1ibur Jan 30, 2013 01:58 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by The Final Dakar (Post 4214534)
That's my point exactly. A lot of AAA titles weren't true 720p and even if they were, they weren't 60 fps. Hardware isn't going to take the same size leap this time round.
The Next PlayStation is Called Orbis, Sources Say. Here are the Details.

Sony had stated the goal the next generation is to run games at 1080p native. The biggest lesson learned with the PS3 is bandwidth and ram. That was the weakest link, and some developers might say the custom architecture was another. All three links are being addressed.

Xbox 720 Codenamed 'Durango': 10 Other Video Game Console Codenames [SLIDESHOW]

Microsoft will be in the same ballpark, although I think it might be easier for them as their current architecture won't have to change as drastically.

I highly doubt the PS4 will be in the $600 range Blu-ray is all over the place now so drives are cheap, the hardware is no longer custom, etc.

Don't get me wrong I am not stating this as a fact, I'm just saying the possibility isn't as impossible as you think.
 
The Final Dakar Jan 30, 2013 02:04 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by exca1ibur (Post 4214555)
The Next PlayStation is Called Orbis, Sources Say. Here are the Details.

Sony had stated the goal the next generation is to run games at 1080p native. The biggest lesson learned with the PS3 is bandwidth and ram. That was the weakest link, and some developers might say the custom architecture was another. All three links are being addressed.

Xbox 720 Codenamed 'Durango': 10 Other Video Game Console Codenames [SLIDESHOW]

Microsoft will be in the same ballpark, although I think it might be easier for them as their current architecture won't have to change as drastically.

I highly doubt the PS4 will be in the $600 range Blu-ray is all over the place now so drives are cheap, the hardware is no longer custom, etc.

Don't get me wrong I am not stating this as a fact, I'm just saying the possibility isn't as impossible as you think.
I don't think it's impossible, I think it's unlikely. And hardware isn't the only reason – Sure, MW2 runs at 60 fps – but when was the last time the engine got a real update? I applaud Polyphony for doing 1080p60 on the PS3 – they also worked on the game for like 6 years?

So I'm not ruling it out per se, but I wouldn't bet on the average game developer delivering, given what we've seen this gen. I mean I assume GTA IV and BF3 could probably run at 1080p60 on the new hardware – but what happens when Rockstar increases the size of the city, the density of people, cars, interiors, etc.? Or when BF3 has to render more than double the players and vehicles on each map?
 
sek929 Jan 30, 2013 02:20 PM
I'll always take a smoother framerate over slightly improved visuals.
 
The Final Dakar Jan 30, 2013 02:37 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by sek929 (Post 4214563)
I'll always take a smoother framerate over slightly improved visuals.
That's the feeling I'm getting. My jaw dropped when I was watching MW2. I love BF3, but the contrast between the screen tearing, frame-rate drops and MW2 was amazing. (Try it)

It also doesn't hurt that both my tvs are 720p. But upscaling doesn't scare me, either.
 
P Jan 31, 2013 03:49 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by Leonard (Post 4214514)
Yeah, for the existing gen of consoles. For a new gen of consoles I expect a full 1080p at 60fps. If it can't do that they better go back to the drawing board.
Current rumors claim that we're looking at something a lot like a 7770 with better memory bandwidth (eDRAM to hold the frame buffer/Z buffer to lighten the load of the main texture memory, but possibly combined with cheapo DDR3 memory). To get an idea where that would put us, let's take a look at a test with a shader-heavy game (less dependent on memory bandwidth):

AnandTech - AMD Radeon HD 7750 & Radeon HD 7770 GHz Edition Review: Evading The Price/Performance Curve

Doesn't even hit 30 fps at 1920*1200. It's going to be a little better on a console (1080 instead of 1200, and probably better optimized for that single GPU than a game that was launched long before the GCN arch) but it's not going to be 60 fps - at least not at very high quality. The other games in the suite are a little better, but none of them hit even 40 fps.
 
Leonard Jan 31, 2013 01:11 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by P (Post 4214761)
Doesn't even hit 30 fps at 1920*1200. It's going to be a little better on a console (1080 instead of 1200, and probably better optimized for that single GPU than a game that was launched long before the GCN arch) but it's not going to be 60 fps - at least not at very high quality. The other games in the suite are a little better, but none of them hit even 40 fps.
My first question would be what the definition of "very high quality" graphics are? My guess would be most console games give us curretly medium quality graphics or stuff bordering on high. I doubt we get very high quality.

If they can get an average of 45fps, that's not bad, I'd probably accept 1080p at 45fps.
 
P Jan 31, 2013 01:47 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by Leonard (Post 4214872)
My first question would be what the definition of "very high quality" graphics are? My guess would be most console games give us curretly medium quality graphics or stuff bordering on high. I doubt we get very high quality.

If they can get an average of 45fps, that's not bad, I'd probably accept 1080p at 45fps.
"Very High Quality" is a preset in the game, but the way the tests work is that if you can't hit that quality at that resolution, you're better off dropping the resolution down a notch first - or so the testers seem to think. Personally I tend to drop the AA, but that's because I'm mostly bandwidth limited rather than shader limited.

Dakar is right about pricing, though. The PS3 used a GPU that was slightly cut down version of the best nVidia had at the time (IIRC it had the same amount of shaders but nerfed memory bandwidth and clocks), and the Xbox 360 likewise used a derivative of ATi's best. This time they're both on tier 3 of the PC GPUs, and the rumored CPU is a variant of AMDs low-budget Atom competitor.
 
The Final Dakar Jan 31, 2013 02:03 PM
Thank god P is around to make me look smarter than I actually am.
 
mattyb Jan 31, 2013 02:26 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by The Final Dakar (Post 4214890)
Thank god P is around to make me look smarter than I actually am.
Well, you do need the help.
 
The Final Dakar Jan 31, 2013 02:30 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by mattyb (Post 4214901)
Well, you do need the help.
I bow to the scandinavian master race.
 
Laminar Jan 31, 2013 02:45 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by The Final Dakar (Post 4214572)
It also doesn't hurt that both my tvs are 720p. But upscaling doesn't scare me, either.
Are you poor people?
 
The Final Dakar Jan 31, 2013 02:47 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by Laminar (Post 4214913)
Are you poor people?
Nope, that's why I own HDTVs from before they got cheap and 1080p.
 
Laminar Feb 1, 2013 02:09 AM
 
P Feb 1, 2013 04:36 AM
Movie buffs in the US are the only people who get a real improvement from 1080p. 1080p24 finally gets rid of 3:2 pulldown, which is a much bigger improvement than the resolution boost - you need a very big display or sit very close to see an improvement in 1080p60 over 720p60. All the comparisons to show how great 1080p was were against 1080i, which is not a high bar - I'd rather take 576p than 1080i.
 
The Final Dakar Feb 1, 2013 09:12 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by Laminar (Post 4215018)
You're retarded.
 
mattyb Feb 2, 2013 03:43 PM
You talking about the Obama - Biden poster Dakar?
 
The Final Dakar Nov 4, 2013 09:27 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by Leonard (Post 4214399)
Where's the 1080p at 60 fps?
Quote, Originally Posted by exca1ibur (Post 4214400)
1080p/60
http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-conten...ehehe_duck.gif
 
Leonard Nov 4, 2013 02:12 PM
Yeah we know that the console companies are sleeping on the job.

Meanwhile TV companies are forging ahead with 4K TVs. When I bought my new TV 2 weeks ago, the futureshop salesman was prowdly boasting there was only 1 TV in the store better than mine, the Sony 4K TV.
 
is not Nov 4, 2013 02:13 PM
Thank you, Mario, but our princess is in a higher definition!!!

While a lot of fanboys have been clamoring around the Wii U like a wounded puppy, waiting to pounce like a jackal from the shadows, they have missed out on one very important facet of this supposedly underpowered console: Not counting indie titles, it has more native 1080p 60fps games than the Xbox One or PS4.

I'm not even going to waste time leading you around by the nose (though for pageview purposes and time spent on the page metrics, I'm sure everyone at CB would prefer that) but I'm just going to throw down the numbers like an American politician throwing up their hands and taking money not to do their job.

The Wii U has confirmed games to run native 1920x1080p at 60 frames per second: Super Smash Bros. U, Bayonetta 2, Mario Kart 8 and Rayman Legends.

Super Smash Bros. U was confirmed to run at 1080p, as noted on My Nintendo News. Mario Kart 8 was confirmed to run on the Wii U without a hitch at 60 frames per second when it was unveiled at E3. Bayonetta 2 was labeled 1080p at 60fps via Siliconera, and even if we want to count HD remakes for next-gen such as Wind Waker HD, Digital Trends made it known that the game is 1080p at 60fps. There's also Rayman Legends, once a Wii U exclusive, that also runs 1080p at 60fps, as noted by Digital Foundry.

So we have about six next-gen games running 1080p at 60fps for the Wii U if you include Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate; even if you want to knock off Wind Waker HD as a remake and a game that's not a real next-gen title, that's fine. We still have a nice cache of games on the Wii U that are native 1080p to prove its case.

On the other side of the coin, we look at a list of games running 1080p and/or 60fps for the Xbox One and PS4 and things slim down drastically, almost to the point of non-existence. The list comes courtesy of Neogaf members who were discussing the PS4 versus Xbox One's 1080p and 60fps offerings, as noted on Dualshockers.

There are only a few games on the PS4's side that hits 1080p at 60fps, including:
KillZone: Shadow Fall = 1920×1080 (MP=60fps, SP=30fps)
DriveClub = 1920×1080 (Targeting 60fps)
Flower = 1920×1080 (60fps)
Resogun = 1920×1080 (60fps)

Now there's also Warframe and DC Universe Online that are also 1080p at 60fps, but neither of those are native next-gen games; they're ports. That would be the equivalent of looking through the Wii U's eShop and naming all the native 1080p 60fps indie games and Wii ports, and by comparison the Wii U would wipe the floor with the competition in that regard.

But look at that list for the PlayStation 4... while I love what Sony is doing with the console, we can see that Killzone isn't native 60fps, but only 60fps in multiplayer with tons of downscaling of the graphics and visual effects.

We also have DriveClub which may or may not be native 60fps, as it seems as if it's a bit of a toss-up. There's also Flower, but again, if we're counting Flower then we may as well leave Wind Waker HD on the list. That means we have three-and-half games on the PS4 side running 1080p at 60fps.

On the Xbox One side it looks even worse. We have...
Killer Instinct = 1280×720 (60fps)
Forza 5 = 1920×1080 (60fps)
Call of Duty: GHOSTS = 1920×1080

You may as well scratch Call of Duty: Ghosts off that list because it's also going to be 60fps on the Wii U and PS4. That just leaves us with Killer Instinct and Forza Motorsport 5, granted only one of those games is a next-generation title at native 1080p and 60fps.

So what does that leave us with? It leaves us with the Wii U being more next-gen than its supposed bigger, badder, next-gen competitors.

I'm guessing it's looking real salty over in the Sony and Microsoft fanboy camps. This is especially embarrassing for the Xbox One, because it's supposed to be an American muscle car of a gaming console, and it's getting out next-genned by the Wii U. It's like a 1970 Dodge Charger getting out-classed on the track by a tuned-up Honda Civic. Embarrassing.
 
The Final Dakar Nov 4, 2013 02:14 PM
To which the old arguments about 1080p from 8 years ago will get brought back up: There's no content for it, nobody is using a tv big enough to utilize it, and if they are, they probably aren't close enough to see the difference.
 
The Final Dakar Nov 4, 2013 02:15 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by is not (Post 4255808)
Thank you, Mario, but our princess is in a higher definition!!!

[i]While a lot of fanboys have been clamoring around the Wii U like a wounded puppy, waiting to pounce like a jackal from the shadows, they have missed out on one very important facet of this supposedly underpowered console: Not counting indie titles, it has more native 1080p 60fps games than the Xbox One or PS4.
lolololol

It has more 1080p titles than those consoles that aren't even out yet!
 
is not Nov 4, 2013 02:21 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by The Final Dakar (Post 4255810)
It has more 1080p titles than those consoles that aren't even out yet!
Hey Dakar, you are right, they aren’t even out, that equals to a zero % of the market, but developers are developing for that zero % :roll eyes:
 
The Final Dakar Nov 4, 2013 02:24 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by is not (Post 4255814)
Hey Dakar, you are right, they aren’t even out, that equals to a zero % of the market, but developers are developing for that zero % :roll eyes:
...what does that even mean?
 
is not Nov 4, 2013 02:26 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by Leonard (Post 4255807)
Yeah we know that the console companies are sleeping on the job.

Meanwhile TV companies are forging ahead with 4K TVs. When I bought my new TV 2 weeks ago, the futureshop salesman was prowdly boasting there was only 1 TV in the store better than mine, the Sony 4K TV.
May I ask what TV did you buy to be only surpassed by a 4K TV?

Here in Europe there are several interesting 4K TVs :eek: but I am more than happy with my 1080p TV set.

No need at the moment for 2160p games :cry: :D
 
The Final Dakar Nov 4, 2013 02:27 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by is not (Post 4255816)
No need at the moment for 2160p games :cry: :D
Maybe when we get to the Playstation 6
 
angelmb Nov 5, 2013 04:37 AM
Quote
This is especially embarrassing for the Xbox One, because it's supposed to be an American muscle car (…)
Whoever wrote that, doesn't know cars. Proper muscle cars don't come with TV headrest monitors.
 
The Final Dakar Nov 5, 2013 10:00 AM
The XBOX One was built to be a party bus.
 
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