MacNN Forums (http://forums.macnn.com/)
-   iPhone, iPad & iPod (http://forums.macnn.com/iphone-ipad-and-ipod/)
-   -   iTouch is not iPhone w/out phone! (http://forums.macnn.com/103/iphone-ipad-and-ipod/349863/itouch-not-iphone-w-out-phone/)

 
goldfilm Oct 1, 2007 08:35 PM
iTouch is not iPhone w/out phone!
I was reviewing the iTouch features because I'm interested in buying it, but then I learned that:

- The iCal is non-editable (so forget about using it as a Palm)
- There is no bluetooth
- Although you may do it through Safari, it hasn't applications like stocks, maps & weather.
- According to what one of the older posts said, you can't see lyrics or do searches.

THIS IS NOT A NICE STRATEGY, APPLE. I wonder why? Especially the non-editable calendar is a ridiculous limitation. And I wonder... why??? Are you testing the users? Once they get really upset will you update it through software? Or give $50 of store credit???

I think the new line of many uncomplete iPods is very confusing.
I don't get it. Probably I'll get a Nano. So dissapointed by the iTouch limitations... It looks like they created the iTouch just to make you desire the iPhone.

What do you think?
 
butterfly0fdoom Oct 1, 2007 08:39 PM
Hasn't this been discussed already?
 
goldfilm Oct 1, 2007 08:51 PM
I'm sorry I didn't find this discussion before. But what I found interesting in the official Apple discussion is that one of the users (also upset because it has no notes and no disk usage) suggested to give Apple as many feedbacks as possible through:

Apple - iPod - Feedback

Thanks!
 
Cadaver Oct 1, 2007 09:03 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by goldfilm (Post 3496476)
I'm sorry I didn't find this discussion before. But what I found interesting in the official Apple discussion is that one of the users (also upset because it has no notes and no disk usage) suggested to give Apple as many feedbacks as possible through:

Apple - iPod - Feedback

Thanks!
Its too bad he's upset, but Notes and disk usage are not advertised iPod touch features.
 
goMac Oct 1, 2007 09:27 PM
Why should the iPod Touch have Bluetooth? The only use for Bluetooth on the iPhone is a headset.
 
Earth Mk. II Oct 1, 2007 09:56 PM
conceivably, Apple could add A2DP and other profiles... at their whim, of course.

Assuming that the board even has a BT controller chip, which is still a matter of complete speculation.
 
butterfly0fdoom Oct 1, 2007 10:13 PM
Well you know what? It could have been worse. It could have just been the iPod app from the iPhone ONLY. Without any other functions. Just music and videos. No iPod has the ability to enter events and contacts. The iPod touch is an iPod. Get my drift here?
 
SEkker Oct 1, 2007 10:47 PM
One reason Apple does not want third party developers to be able to add software to the iPod Touch is one could imagine porting the mail and other apps over.

That would 'ruin' Apple's established distinctions between these devices.

Of all the business moves Apple makes, this one bothers me the most - castrating perfectly fine hardware to make it less powerful. They underclocked the ol' Mac IIsi so it would not compete with the IIci, they blocked the ability of the iBook to have an external monitor (making it only able to mirror when that ability was built into the logic board). They block the ability to add a to do list, voice recorder functions, and load documents onto the iPhone because they don't WANT the iPhone to be a PDA.

I've never really wanted to hack into one of my iPods - they really had poor screens before this year. Now that they are really pocket computers, they offer so many cool options that if Apple would allow people to customize, they would sell many more than they would 'lose' by trying to force people to buy an iPhone rather than the Touch.

Sorry for the rant, but Apple's recent attitude towards people who want to use their products in unusual ways - in other words, those that want to 'think different' - are being punished. They used to be the outsider looking in; now they ARE the evil establishment.
 
goldfilm Oct 2, 2007 11:30 AM
SEkker, I totally agree, and that was the main soul of my question: why Apple is castrating hardware/software capabilities?

As other person posted before, Apple probably spent more time/resources/money quitting the editable function to the iCal that iPhone had, instead of leaving it that original way. They even allow to edit contacts, but not calendar. In other words, they are telling us: "The iTouch has the possibility to enter text exactly as the iPhone has. You may enter text to use Safari or Contacts. But, if you want to enter text in your calendar... well, well, buy the iPhone."

That's why I find in the new line of iPods so many options of "you have this, but you don't have this" that it's confusing and in some way they're almost betraying the customers.

Again, as SEkker said, what about that old Apple spirit... to think different?
 
OAW Oct 2, 2007 11:42 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by goMac (Post 3496493)
Why should the iPod Touch have Bluetooth? The only use for Bluetooth on the iPhone is a headset.
Well that's a pretty silly limitation on the iPhone IMO. At a minimum it (and the iPod touch) should support BT speakers/headphones. I mean they are media players after all. Beyond that, they should be able to sync Calendar, Contacts, and To Dos over BT. I can understand doing music and video over the wire because of the large file sizes ... but iSync has been doing wireless syncing of this smaller info with BT cell phones for years ... and it's just silly that an Apple device doesn't support this. Finally, these devices could be used with Salling Clicker if the right profiles were added. I love being able to activate my screen saver and lock my system when I leave my laptop with my cell phone because of the proximity detection feature. Or having iTunes automatically pause and display caller ID info on my screen when I receive a call. Or be able to send SMS messages by typing on my laptop instead of the phone. I've had this functionality with Sony Ericsson BT-enabled phones for years ... and it's pretty pathetic that an Apple device downright sucks when it comes to BT support in comparison.

OAW
 
goldfilm Oct 2, 2007 12:01 PM
Just to recap what the iTouch is missing:

- The iCal is non-editable.
- No bluetooth.
- No camera (some persons argue it's not important)
- No physical volume control. You must "look" the screen first.
- No applications like stocks, maps & weather.
- No Notes.
- No disk usage (SO IT'S NOT THE BEST IPOD EVER. ALL OTHER IPODS CAN BE USED AS HD)
- No lyrics support (SO IT'S NOT THE BEST IPOD EVER. ALL OTHER IPODS CAN SHOW LYRICS)
- Limitations with search capabilities.
- No compatible with Apple Radio Remote.

What is positive about iTouch:
- You still can input notes in a tricky way, creating a new contact and using the "notes" field.
- Of course, Wi-Fi.
- A little thinner than iPhone.
- Bigger screen than any other iPod.
- Of course... the "touch".

I'm trying to be positive, I'm still thinking about buying it, but I think Apple must re-think the product and bring back a few fundamentals that they locked or removed from the iPhone brother.
 
DigitalEl Oct 2, 2007 04:33 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by goldfilm
- No lyrics support (SO IT'S NOT THE BEST IPOD EVER. ALL OTHER IPODS CAN SHOW LYRICS)
I'm pretty sure the Shuffle can't show song lyrics. ;)

The Community sure has become shrill lately, what with all the hand-wringing over this "missing" feature or that "crippled" capability.

Vote with your dollar. If a product doesn't meet my expectations, I don't buy it. If enough people don't buy the iPod Touch, then Apple will revise it to boost sales and give the marketplace what it demands. As it stands though, I'm guessing they'll be announcing more record sales by next spring.

Nerds remember, you are not necessarily the target demo. Apple will take money from self-styled hackers and fanboys, but those Internet tough guys aren't gonna make or break a quarter... No matter how many petitions they sign.
 
analogika Oct 2, 2007 05:59 PM
Oh jeez.

Must this be discussed EVERY SINGLE WEEK?

There is a PERFECTLY LOGICAL REASON behind Apple's strategy.

It's called "Product Differentiation". At a fundamental level, EVERY PRODUCT'S FEATURES in EVERY SINGLE INDUSTRY are completely arbitrary.

Designating product functionality goes as follows:

1. What can we offer?

2. How much can we charge?

3. What *do* we offer?

Balance these three around different values for (2.) for the different products of a product line.

Works for just about anything that's manufactured.
 
sushiism Oct 2, 2007 06:41 PM
Got absolutely no interest in being ripped off with uk iPhone contracts, and the touch is thinner and has more storage. Its absolute perfection if only it would get hacked or Apple would stop being jerks with it.
 
goldfilm Oct 3, 2007 01:19 AM
I totally agree that it's about supply-demand, and our powerful vote is TO NOT BUY, but I also think our feedback about being fooled is rich and it also can make a difference. The new Apple strategy is "let's see how much they scream", if people buy w/out complaining... they win. If everybody give bad feedback they think about it.... but unfortunately, at the end of the day, they sell more, more revenue, they don't care.

Conclusion: more feedback, less purchases.
 
butterfly0fdoom Oct 3, 2007 01:33 AM
Well instead of always being the complaining customer who only thinks about "I want ___ feature and ____ sucks for not implementing it", why not try to think from other angles? Like the PRODUCT DIFFERENTIATION angle? Or the "the IPod touch is an iPod with the Multi-touch interface and isn't necessarily meant to be a phone-less iPhone" angle?
 
pcryan5 Oct 3, 2007 11:10 AM
"Apple iZune"

~iTouch 16GB Owner
 
imitchellg5 Oct 3, 2007 06:59 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by goldfilm (Post 3496467)
I was reviewing the iTouch features because I'm interested in buying it, but then I learned that:

- The iCal is non-editable (so forget about using it as a Palm)
- There is no bluetooth
- Although you may do it through Safari, it hasn't applications like stocks, maps & weather.
- According to what one of the older posts said, you can't see lyrics or do searches.

THIS IS NOT A NICE STRATEGY, APPLE. I wonder why? Especially the non-editable calendar is a ridiculous limitation. And I wonder... why??? Are you testing the users? Once they get really upset will you update it through software? Or give $50 of store credit???

I think the new line of many uncomplete iPods is very confusing.
I don't get it. Probably I'll get a Nano. So dissapointed by the iTouch limitations... It looks like they created the iTouch just to make you desire the iPhone.

What do you think?
Get a Treo, you'll be happier :\
 
Cadaver Oct 3, 2007 09:57 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by butterfly0fdoom (Post 3497333)
the IPod touch is an iPod with the Multi-touch interface and isn't necessarily meant to be a phone-less iPhone
Bingo!
 
goldfilm Oct 5, 2007 03:25 PM
Hahha... well, to be honest you made me think about a Treo or the new Centro, and buy a Nano. But it's a pity the iTouch, as beautiful as it seems, is not convincing me... it's a pity my friend. I really wanted to like it. As I said in the iPod radio discussion, even the Apple employees aren't happy with so many limitations...
 
::maroma:: Oct 5, 2007 04:24 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by goldfilm (Post 3498996)
Hahha... well, to be honest you made me think about a Treo or the new Centro, and buy a Nano. But it's a pity the iTouch, as beautiful as it seems, is not convincing me... it's a pity my friend. I really wanted to like it. As I said in the iPod radio discussion, even the Apple employees aren't happy with so many limitations...
Patience is a virtue. Just like every other Apple product, it will evolve, most likely meeting your needs or at least getting very close.

And just to be clear, how do you know that Apple employees aren't happy with the Touch?
 
analogika Oct 5, 2007 04:30 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by ::maroma:: (Post 3499042)
And just to be clear, how do you know that Apple employees aren't happy with the Touch?
And of those who aren't happy with the touch, how many have already decided to go for the upsell and get an iPhone?

And have you taken into account that ALL Apple employees in the company longer than 12 months (14 months now) got an iPhone for FREE from Apple, and that to anyone who already OWNS an iPhone, the iPod touch of course makes absolutely NO sense, at all?

:stick:
 
butterfly0fdoom Oct 5, 2007 05:20 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by ::maroma:: (Post 3499042)
Patience is a virtue. Just like every other Apple product, it will evolve, most likely meeting your needs or at least getting very close.
It'll never meet his needs. He wants an iPhone without the phone. The iPod touch is an iPod with Multi-touch. And that's all it'll ever be.
 
analogika Oct 5, 2007 05:30 PM
Which is to say, if the iPod touch ever got the current iPhone's functionality, the iPhone available at that point would again surpass the touch in functionality, and he'd be unhappy again.
 
::maroma:: Oct 5, 2007 06:53 PM
True. And we have now circled back to analogika's assertion of upselling. And it is of my opinion that Apple is not a bad company for upselling. But others will disagree.
 
Kar98 Oct 6, 2007 08:51 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by Cadaver (Post 3496485)
Its too bad he's upset, but Notes and disk usage are not advertised iPod touch features.
No, but something that I would reasonably expect from a device like that.
 
.Neo Oct 6, 2007 08:55 PM
I actually bought an iPod touch and returned it. I thought it was a disappointment and just wasn't worth the money. Right now I'm very happy with my 80 GB iPod classic.
 
butterfly0fdoom Oct 7, 2007 12:26 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by Kar98 (Post 3499657)
No, but something that I would reasonably expect from a device like that.
Here's the question: Why? There is no notes function because Notes isn't an iPod function, it's an iPhone function. There is no disk drive option because Apple expects users to be loading what little memory the iPod touch has with videos. Considering the amount of space videos take, I don't think Apple expected a high demand for disk drive mode for the touch.
 
vmarks Oct 7, 2007 09:33 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by butterfly0fdoom (Post 3499755)
Here's the question: Why? There is no notes function because Notes isn't an iPod function, it's an iPhone function. There is no disk drive option because Apple expects users to be loading what little memory the iPod touch has with videos. Considering the amount of space videos take, I don't think Apple expected a high demand for disk drive mode for the touch.
Incorrect.

Notes have been an iPod function since revision 1.1 of the iPod 5GB firmware way back in 2002.

You were able to use disk mode (mounted on Desktop) and copy txt and rtf files to a Notes folder and have then appear on the iPod.

It doesn't matter that Apple expects you to load videos and therefore use all the storage space up- if I want to have a copy of my resumé handy, this should be possible.

Upsell strategy absolutely matters; at the same time, Apple knows that taking away features associated with a product name never goes over well. Apple additionally knows that giving one device updates and not updating the others doesn't go over well, which is why many of the iPod firmware 2.x features were also given to the 1.x series devices, even after Apple pretty officially announced that the firmware 1.x series would not be updated further.
 
butterfly0fdoom Oct 7, 2007 02:23 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by vmarks (Post 3499872)
Notes have been an iPod function since revision 1.1 of the iPod 5GB firmware way back in 2002.

Upsell strategy absolutely matters; at the same time, Apple knows that taking away features associated with a product name never goes over well. Apple additionally knows that giving one device updates and not updating the others doesn't go over well, which is why many of the iPod firmware 2.x features were also given to the 1.x series devices, even after Apple pretty officially announced that the firmware 1.x series would not be updated further.
Ah, but you see, the "Notes" function we have been discussing is the "Notes" APPLICATION of the iPhone that allows one to edit notes, not just view them.

Apple markets the iPod touch to a certain demographic, and they don't anticipate the demand for disk drive function from that demographic. Am I surprised that that function doesn't exist? I'm more surprised the shuffle has that function, actually. That said, the fact that they won't allow a Mac user to use a FAT/32 iPod irks me since it limits its use as a portable hard drive, especially since none of my friends use Macs.
 
analogika Oct 7, 2007 02:39 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by butterfly0fdoom (Post 3500018)
That said, the fact that they won't allow a Mac user to use a FAT/32 iPod irks me since it limits its use as a portable hard drive, especially since none of my friends use Macs.
Wait, what did I miss?

Windows-formatted iPods work just fine on the Mac! (You just can't update the firmware from a Mac without re-formatting it to HFS+.)
 
butterfly0fdoom Oct 7, 2007 04:38 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by analogika (Post 3500031)
Wait, what did I miss?

Windows-formatted iPods work just fine on the Mac! (You just can't update the firmware from a Mac without re-formatting it to HFS+.)
Well, that's my problem. Why can't they just use FAT/32 regardless of Mac or Windows usage after a firmware update?
 
analogika Oct 7, 2007 05:24 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by butterfly0fdoom (Post 3500082)
Well, that's my problem. Why can't they just use FAT/32 regardless of Mac or Windows usage after a firmware update?
Because FAT 32 volumes SUCK for use on the Mac as a mass storage device - will you explain to everybody who wishes to use their iPod as an external drive that copying applications and certain data files onto there will break them?
 
butterfly0fdoom Oct 7, 2007 07:23 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by analogika (Post 3500117)
Because FAT 32 volumes SUCK for use on the Mac as a mass storage device - will you explain to everybody who wishes to use their iPod as an external drive that copying applications and certain data files onto there will break them?
Yeah, well, frankly HFS+ SUCKS for use on PC. OH WAIT IT DOESN'T EVEN WORK WITH WINDOWS.
 
vmarks Oct 7, 2007 10:44 PM
(a) - the notes function will come to iPod Touch. Mark my words.

(b) - The fact that Windows only supports FAT and NTFS partitions is a Windows flaw, not an iPod or Macintosh problem. Windows used to support HPFS (OS/2) partitions in NT3.1 and 3.51 and Microsoft removed that support because of NIH (not invented here) syndrome.

(b and a half) - FAT32 stinks on any platform, which is why MS is preferential to NTFS. FAT32 happens to be the only common denominator that can be used safely, since writing to NTFS outside of an MS operating system is risky business.

(c) butterfly, your tone is seriously aggressive. Here we are talking about the issues you're raising, and you're nearly verbally assaulting us. I don't know what answer it is that you need and haven't gotten here, but I hope you find it.
 
analogika Oct 8, 2007 03:11 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by butterfly0fdoom (Post 3500190)
Yeah, well, frankly HFS+ SUCKS for use on PC. OH WAIT IT DOESN'T EVEN WORK WITH WINDOWS.
Welcome to Apple, the company that would rather NOT implement something than HAVE IT BE BROKEN.

Install MacDrive on your Windows machine, and it will be less format-stupid.
 
theDreamer Nov 5, 2007 04:50 PM
Why are people so upset about this? Has the iPod ever, ever had the ability to edit in it?
Why so upset now then? Just because there is another device that Apple produces that is similar means that it (iPod) should have a similar feature?
 
theDreamer Nov 5, 2007 04:52 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by theDreamer (Post 3525902)
Why are people so upset about this? Has the iPod ever, ever had the ability to edit in it?
Why so upset now then? Just because there is another device that Apple produces that is similar means that it (iPod) should have a similar feature?
Apparently the post I just made which I am replying to kentuckyfried is above his some how...:confused:
 
theDreamer Nov 5, 2007 04:56 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by kentuckyfried (Post 3525898)
argh...it's really frustrating what Apple is doing. They want to pacify and expand the market for the iPhone, and yet, they don't want to cannibalize their products. The iPhone is indeed a better purchase, but I don't really feel like paying out for a cell and data plan at the moment (at least not until the iPhone goes 3G).

It's ok to have different features to distinguish the 2, but it's stupid to hobble even basic functionality such as editable notes/iCal OR even the one I like the most, disk usage.

Now I have to run and buy this 2 apps ($24+$10 = $34 to allow for PC to mac transfers) if I want to bring it back:

=======================
For the PC check out TouchCopy to enable disk use on your iPod Touch.
TouchCopy - enable disk use for iPhone and iPod Touch. Copy music into iTunes.

For the Mac, there's iPhoneDrive
Ecamm Network: iPhoneDrive iPhone and iPod Touch Disk Mode - Backup to iPhone

=============================

:mad:
This is just a test to see if the error was fixed or not.
Apparently not, but some how I am ahead of time or something...???
 
kentuckyfried Nov 5, 2007 05:48 PM
argh...it's really frustrating what Apple is doing. They want to pacify and expand the market for the iPhone, and yet, they don't want to cannibalize their products. The iPhone is indeed a better purchase, but I don't really feel like paying out for a cell and data plan at the moment (at least not until the iPhone goes 3G).

It's ok to have different features to distinguish the 2, but it's stupid to hobble even basic functionality such as editable notes/iCal OR even the one I like the most, disk usage.

Now I have to run and buy this 2 apps ($24+$10 = $34 to allow for PC to mac transfers) if I want to bring it back:

=======================
For the PC check out TouchCopy to enable disk use on your iPod Touch.
TouchCopy - enable disk use for iPhone and iPod Touch. Copy music into iTunes.

For the Mac, there's iPhoneDrive
Ecamm Network: iPhoneDrive iPhone and iPod Touch Disk Mode - Backup to iPhone

=============================

:mad:

Quote, Originally Posted by goldfilm (Post 3496831)
SEkker, I totally agree, and that was the main soul of my question: why Apple is castrating hardware/software capabilities?

As other person posted before, Apple probably spent more time/resources/money quitting the editable function to the iCal that iPhone had, instead of leaving it that original way. They even allow to edit contacts, but not calendar. In other words, they are telling us: "The iTouch has the possibility to enter text exactly as the iPhone has. You may enter text to use Safari or Contacts. But, if you want to enter text in your calendar... well, well, buy the iPhone."

That's why I find in the new line of iPods so many options of "you have this, but you don't have this" that it's confusing and in some way they're almost betraying the customers.

Again, as SEkker said, what about that old Apple spirit... to think different?
 
butterfly0fdoom Nov 5, 2007 06:48 PM
Why. WHY DID YOU REVIVE THIS THREAD?
 
::maroma:: Nov 5, 2007 07:12 PM
If the iPhone never existed, and the Touch was introduced as-is, would this thread exist?

No?

Pretend the iPhone doesn't exist. Problem solved.
 
analogika Nov 9, 2007 04:14 AM
iPod touch can now edit and add calendar events (as of version 1.1.2).

The end.
 
JLL Nov 9, 2007 07:06 AM
I thought it was more or less common knowledge that the calendar wasn't editable because of a bug found just before release.
 
::maroma:: Nov 9, 2007 12:35 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by JLL (Post 3529209)
I thought it was more or less common knowledge that the calendar wasn't editable because of a bug found just before release.
And apparently its been fixed as of today.

So the whiners can cross this off their list.
 
Koralatov Nov 11, 2007 09:53 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by ::maroma:: (Post 3529385)
So the whiners can cross this off their list.
One down, about 1,300 left to go. Even if the touch was literally an iPhone without a phone, some people would complain about the fact it had no phone. Some people will never be happy.
 
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:45 PM.

Copyright © 2005-2007 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2