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-   -   FBI raids Indiana University grad student's apartment (http://forums.macnn.com/95/political-war-lounge/315472/fbi-raids-indiana-university-grad-students/)

 
besson3c Oct 30, 2006 07:10 PM
FBI raids Indiana University grad student's apartment
This really pisses me off...

US senator Charles Schumer some 18 months ago puts out some sort of announcement about how airplane security can be easily compromised by simply creating your own boarding passes. Nothing was done about this security hole.

Chris Soghoian, a grad student here at IU, writes a little script (probably not terribly complicated, I'm sure many of us here could write something similar) that he makes available on his blog that allows you to generate these fake boarding passes. He describes how one could create two separate tickets and use these to conceal their identity prior to boarding. The latter is relatively obvious - being able to generate fake boarding passes = bad... a security threat... right? Soghoian was trying to shed light on the issue, and trying to get this security hole addressed.

Ed Markey, a prick of a congressman in Mass. sics the FBI on this guy, and Soghoian describes in his blog how after coming home he found his glass on his front door shattered, his place up-ended with a search warranted taped to his kitchen counter. His computers are gone.

Now, he is trying to put together a legal defense, he is completely distressed, and probably traumatized. Fast forward, and Markey posts this:

Congressman Edward Markey - October 29, 2006 - MARKEY: DON'T ARREST STUDENT, USE HIM TO FIX LOOPHOLES

It's great that *now* you realize that this guy was performing a public service, and that he himself did *not* use the fake tickets or attempt to compromise our own security, but it's kind of a little late for this revelation, isn't it?

What about this, from his little announcement:

Quote
He picked a lousy way of doing it, but he should not go to jail for his bad judgment.
How the hell would you expect him to get the word out? If a goddamn US senator can't even get people to pay attention 18 months ago, how would you propose a grad student at a University in the midwest do so?

How about this:

Quote
Better yet, the Department of Homeland Security should put him to work showing public officials how easily our security can be compromised.
How about "The DHS should *ask* him to help"?


What a shame this is that our best defense against lousy security is to become bullies to well-intentioned citizens who are simply trying to shed light on these issues?
 
Spliffdaddy Oct 30, 2006 07:19 PM
I dunno. This is a difficult situation.

If the student's ultimate goal was to "shed light on the issue" - then posting it on the internet was a bad idea.

Let's see how this pans out. Not every executed search warrant ends with a criminal conviction.
 
besson3c Oct 30, 2006 07:27 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy (Post 3186526)
I dunno. This is a difficult situation.

If the student's ultimate goal was to "shed light on the issue" - then posting it on the internet was a bad idea.

Let's see how this pans out. Not every executed search warrant ends with a criminal conviction.

How should he have shed light on it?
 
hey!_Zeus Oct 30, 2006 07:27 PM
Kinda like civil disobedience over the internet.:\
 
besson3c Oct 30, 2006 07:30 PM
It's also astonishing how something like this could have gone unnoticed for so damn long. Seriously.

It really isn't hard to take a piece of paper, figure out what font is being used, and replace the text with something else. Surely we can do better.
 
Big Mac Oct 30, 2006 07:50 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by besson3c (Post 3186537)
How should he have shed light on it?
By contacting relevant government agencies (FAA, FBI, etc.) first?
 
vmarks Oct 30, 2006 08:10 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by besson3c (Post 3186517)

How the hell would you expect him to get the word out? If a goddamn US senator can't even get people to pay attention 18 months ago, how would you propose a grad student at a University in the midwest do so?

You mean the student couldn't have had his script print "NOT VALID FOR USE" on the fake boarding passes? Wouldn't doing that still have drawn the proper attention?
 
marden Oct 30, 2006 11:02 PM
From the provided link:

Quote
“On Friday I urged the Bush Administration to ‘apprehend’ and shut down whoever had created a new website that enabled persons without a plane ticket to easily fake a boarding pass and use it to clear security, gain access to the boarding area and potentially to the cabin of a passenger plane. Subsequently I learned that the person responsible was a student at Indiana University, Christopher Soghoian, who intended no harm but, rather, intended to provide a public service by warning that this long-standing loophole could be easily exploited. The website has now apparently been shut down.
Sometimes people get so caught up in the novelty of their discoveries that they lose sight of the big picture.

When you come up with a method of taking advantage of a national security gap it doesn't make much sense to make it available to the public. Without more facts to go on I can't be certain, but based on this little bit of info I think I can understand the student's feelings.

It's best that, unless there's info that would suggest otherwise, he not be arrested and that any inconvenience, expense or discomfort he experiences be chalked up to a tough lesson learned.

AND also a bullet dodged.

He COULD have been dealt with even more harshly.

His invention COULD have been used to commit acts of terror. Then he'd really be in the sh1t.

Stupidity can kill.

Anyone who has walked that road can probably back me up on this.
 
TheWOAT Oct 30, 2006 11:07 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by marden (Post 3186777)
From the provided link:



Sometimes people get so caught up in the novelty of their discoveries that they lose sight of the big picture.

When you come up with a method of taking advantage of a national security gap it doesn't make much sense to make it available to the public. Without more facts to go on I can't be certain, but based on this little bit of info I think I can understand the student's feelings.

It's best that, unless there's info that would suggest otherwise, he not be arrested and that any inconvenience, expense or discomfort he experiences be chalked up to a tough lesson learned.

AND also a bullet dodged.

He COULD have been dealt with even more harshly.

His invention COULD have been used to commit acts of terror. Then he'd really be in the sh1t.

Stupidity can kill.

Anyone who has walked that road can probably back me up on this.
:thumbsup:
 
Atheist Oct 30, 2006 11:20 PM
There's a limit to altruism. He feels he was doing a public service drawing attention to an airport security issue by distributing the tools necessary to bypass airport security. Not a bright man.
 
besson3c Oct 30, 2006 11:33 PM
Distributing the tools? He provided very little that couldn't be recreated with a minimal amount of resources, this is an extremely low tech exploit.

Do you guys feel the same way about people who publish proof-of-concept computer viruses? By publicizing and bringing these things to the fore, not only can they lead to these holes being plugged, but they also provide security experts with the tools to be savvy about these exploits.

In other words, you can flip your argument around that Sogholian is assisting the bad guys by saying that by exposing the magician's magic tricks, we can learn about how the trick is performed, and in doing so remove the element of surprise.
 
besson3c Oct 30, 2006 11:39 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by vmarks (Post 3186618)
You mean the student couldn't have had his script print "NOT VALID FOR USE" on the fake boarding passes? Wouldn't doing that still have drawn the proper attention?

Maybe, but it seems that the hit-over-the-head-with-a-sledgehammer approach seems to get people moving quicker. They had at least 18 months to address this.
 
marden Oct 30, 2006 11:53 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by besson3c (Post 3186806)
Distributing the tools? He provided very little that couldn't be recreated with a minimal amount of resources, this is an extremely low tech exploit.

Do you guys feel the same way about people who publish proof-of-concept computer viruses? By publicizing and bringing these things to the fore, not only can they lead to these holes being plugged, but they also provide security experts with the tools to be savvy about these exploits.

In other words, you can flip your argument around that Sogholian is assisting the bad guys by saying that by exposing the magician's magic tricks, we can learn about how the trick is performed, and in doing so remove the element of surprise.
A guy learns how to go around an important aspect of air safety and to show how negligent the government is for allowing this innovation to remain in his hands he creates a website and publishes the information on the internet.

The FBI takes his equipment.

How can there be any confusion about how lucky this guy is?
 
ThinkInsane Oct 30, 2006 11:57 PM
Here's what I don't understand. As of late, I've been seeing Chris Soghoian referred to as a "security researcher" and someone that only made the fake boarding pass generator as a way to expose a security flaw in the system. Yet his blog post from October 25th offers three suggestions for using the generator:

Quote
1. Meet your elderly grandparents at the gate
2. 'Upgrade' yourself once on the airplane - by printing another boarding pass for a ticket you're already purchased, only this time, in Business Class.
3. Demonstrate that the TSA Boarding Pass/ID check is useless.
Now, I don't think this guy should go to jail or anything, but I think he did something really stupid and is now trying to pull his own ass out of the fire. And I really can't blame him for that. But come on, I think it's rather naive to think he ONLY did this as a way to show a security weakness, when sending this information to the NY Times would have been just as effective when it hit the front page.

It seems to me that all these people rallying around him really don't care what his intentions were (which seem to me were probably more along the lines of looking to make a name or himself) and are taking up his banner as political point. And 'm really getting sick of it. If this guy didn't expect there to be repercussions for creating this, he's an idiot. And I also think anyone who thinks he wouldn't of gotten a visit from the F.B.I. regardless of who or what party controlled the whitehouse is an idiot. Not everything is a nefarious plan to limit rights. Not everything needs to be made a political point. And sometimes a guy coming up with a really stupid idea is just that and nothing more.

His own words show that exposing a flaw in the system wasn't the highest priority and I call BS on all this revisionism going on in regards to it. I can't help but notice committing fraud was suggested before alerting the TSA to a problem. Speaking of which, how exactly was using these passes going to alert TSA to anything? Were people expected to go back and tell them afterwards? Might have been, since he seems so surprised that he got a visit from the feds...
 
besson3c Oct 30, 2006 11:59 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by marden (Post 3186824)
A guy learns how to go around an important aspect of air safety and to show how negligent the government is for allowing this innovation to remain in his hands he creates a website and publishes the information on the internet.

The FBI takes his equipment.

How can there be any confusion about how lucky this guy is?

He also has to put together the funds for a legal defense. There are charges against him.
 
Atheist Oct 31, 2006 12:04 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by besson3c (Post 3186806)
Distributing the tools? He provided very little that couldn't be recreated with a minimal amount of resources, this is an extremely low tech exploit.
Yes... he distributed the tools to bypass airport security. Are you denying that fact?

Your second point illustrates his lack of judgement... any number of people could have done exactly what he did... however he seems to be the only one.
 
marden Oct 31, 2006 12:05 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by ThinkInsane (Post 3186827)
Here's what I don't understand. As of late, I've been seeing Chris Soghoian referred to as a "security researcher" and someone that only made the fake boarding pass generator as a way to expose a security flaw in the system. Yet his blog post from October 25th offers three suggestions for using the generator:



Now, I don't think this guy should go to jail or anything, but I think he did something really stupid and is now trying to pull his own ass out of the fire. And I really can't blame him for that. But come on, I think it's rather naive to think he ONLY did this as a way to show a security weakness, when sending this information to the NY Times would have been just as effective when it hit the front page.

It seems to me that all these people rallying around him really don't care what his intentions were (which seem to me were probably more along the lines of looking to make a name or himself) and are taking up his banner as political point. And 'm really getting sick of it. If this guy didn't expect there to be repercussions for creating this, he's an idiot. And I also think anyone who thinks he wouldn't of gotten a visit from the F.B.I. regardless of who or what party controlled the whitehouse is an idiot. Not everything is a nefarious plan to limit rights. Not everything needs to be made a political point. And sometimes a guy coming up with a really stupid idea is just that and nothing more.

His own words show that exposing a flaw in the system wasn't the highest priority and I call BS on all this revisionism going on in regards to it. I can't help but notice committing fraud was suggested before alerting the TSA to a problem. Speaking of which, how exactly was using these passes going to alert TSA to anything? Were people expected to go back and tell them afterwards? Might have been, since he seems so surprised that he got a visit from the feds...
:thumbsup: :)
 
invisibleX Oct 31, 2006 12:08 AM
Forcing a change by making it a high priority? Assuming there was no better channel, why not? Making light of an existing security flaw doesn't cause any more risk than ignoring it.
 
besson3c Oct 31, 2006 12:09 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by Atheist (Post 3186835)
Yes... he distributed the tools to bypass airport security. Are you denying that fact?
This is a leading question... It doesn't matter, because these tools had very little value. Should the people that sold the 9/11 hijackers box cutters be charged? Perhaps a better analogy would be the proof-of-concept virus writers, what would you do with them?

Quote
Your second point illustrates his lack of judgement... any number of people could have done exactly what he did... however he seems to be the only one.
I wouldn't have done what he did, I agree that his judgment probably did not serve his best interests, but I also think that this congressman and the FBI also exercised poor judgment.
 
besson3c Oct 31, 2006 12:10 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by invisibleX (Post 3186837)
Forcing a change by making it a high priority? Assuming there was no better channel, why not? Making light of an existing security flaw doesn't cause any more risk than ignoring it.


Yes, this is what I was trying to say earlier when I was talking about exposing the magician's tricks. Thank you for saying this better :)
 
marden Oct 31, 2006 12:11 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by besson3c (Post 3186829)
He also has to put together the funds for a legal defense. There are charges against him.
Like TI says, I'm getting tired of people's stupidity, the likes we OFTEN see evidence of here, being used as an excuse for wrong doing when it comes to national security. Witness the guy who made the NFL threats a few weeks ago. Witness little Johnny Walker Lindh.

This fellow should be able to get a public defender to help him. Or maybe someone from the ACLU will help him.
 
marden Oct 31, 2006 12:15 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by invisibleX (Post 3186837)
Forcing a change by making it a high priority? Assuming there was no better channel, why not? Making light of an existing security flaw doesn't cause any more risk than ignoring it.
YES. IT. DOES.

Where do you get these ideas???
 
Dork. Oct 31, 2006 12:17 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by Atheist (Post 3186835)
Your second point illustrates his lack of judgement... any number of people could have done exactly what he did... however he seems to be the only one.
He seems to be the only one who did it publically. For all we know, any number of people were taking advantage of this loophole, for nefarious purposes. A loophole which Chuck Schumer knew about 18 months ago, who is a person you would think has enough authority to demand changes, and yet nothing happened.

I don't think the FBI necessarily showed poor judgement, though, because they can't assume that this guy was harmless, they are duty-bound to investigate and make sure this wasn't part of something larger. Yes, we are pretty sure now that this guy was simply acting on his own to demonstrate flaws, but that may not have been apparent to the FBI when the story first broke. Unfortunately, being investigated by the FBI for anything computer-related involves an invasive search and the confiscation of most of the computer equipment in your house, which can be ruinious for a grad student working on a thesis. Hopefully, he gets it back in short order.

I feel sorry for the guy, but I can't get too outraged over it.
 
marden Oct 31, 2006 12:24 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by besson3c (Post 3186843)
Yes, this is what I was trying to say earlier when I was talking about exposing the magician's tricks. Thank you for saying this better :)
Ohhhhh, besson3c. :cry:

No one can be assured of finding exactly everything they need to commit a crime when they want to. But if someone was looking to assemble the items needed to gain passage aboard an airliner to commit a crime or act of terror and they were unable to figure out how to get passage on the plane wouldn't this allow them to bypass security?

It does increase the possibility that a crime would be committed.

If a guy makes fake ID's so kids can get into bars and drink booze but no one knows about it then no one will break the law with his ID's. But if he creates a website people can find out about his ID's and take advantage of them and thus violations of the law and/or damage can occur.
 
Dork. Oct 31, 2006 12:25 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by marden (Post 3186847)
Like TI says, I'm getting tired of people's stupidity, the likes we OFTEN see evidence of here, being used as an excuse for wrong doing when it comes to national security. Witness the guy who made the NFL threats a few weeks ago. Witness little Johnny Walker Lindh.
I don't think you can equate this guy or the NFL guy to Lindh. Lindh admitted to actively taking up arms against Americans (although his wiki page has some interesting statements about that confession, unfortunalely without any citations backing up the claims in the article.)

This guy and the NFL guy simply didn't realize how their one little bit of the Internet could turn into a Federal case rather quickly, and how dimly others would view their actions. They had no intention to harm anyone, and in fact did not harm anyone, but the perception of their actions by law enforcement got them in trouble.
 
Dork. Oct 31, 2006 12:27 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by marden (Post 3186860)
If a guy makes fake ID's so kids can get into bars and drink booze but no one knows about it then no one will break the law with his ID's. But if he creates a website people can find out about his ID's and take advantage of them and thus violations of the law and/or damage can occur.
Heh, You really think that if someone makes fake ID's, but doesn't advertise that fact publically, then "no one knows about it" and "no one will break the law with his ID's"? You really are naive.
 
marden Oct 31, 2006 12:41 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by Dork. (Post 3186863)
Heh, You really think that if someone makes fake ID's, but doesn't advertise that fact publically, then "no one knows about it" and "no one will break the law with his ID's"? You really are naive.
Oh no, Dork. The level of discourse around here seems to have become pretty pedantic. I think it is due to the incessant quibbling over inconsequential points of debate when the debater hasn't the intelligence, knowledge or maturity to come up with a real comeback.

Dork., you know I was merely trying to establish the PRINCIPLE of advertising and making services known and available to others as opposed to not doing so.

Please don't make me go through this torturous crap when we BOTH know the score, ok?

Please?
 
Spliffdaddy Oct 31, 2006 01:00 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by besson3c (Post 3186829)
He also has to put together the funds for a legal defense. There are charges against him.
Man, if all the charges against me had 'stuck' - I wouldn't be a free man until I was in my late 40's.

It's the nature of our legal system. Even a speeding ticket is technically punishable by 11 months 29 days in jail.
 
besson3c Oct 31, 2006 01:01 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by marden (Post 3186867)
Oh no, Dork. The level of discourse around here seems to have become pretty pedantic. I think it is due to the incessant quibbling over inconsequential points of debate when the debater hasn't the intelligence, knowledge or maturity to come up with a real comeback.

Dork., you know I was merely trying to establish the PRINCIPLE of advertising and making services known and available to others as opposed to not doing so.

Please don't make me go through this torturous crap when we BOTH know the score, ok?

Please?

Marden, since you are sort of probably on probation or something, you should know that the mods are issuing infractions now. I received three for calling Spliffdaddy a gay old goat that needs ointment.

Just sharing this publicly so that others might be aware of these infractions, for those that would prefer to keep their noses clean.
 
marden Oct 31, 2006 01:18 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by besson3c (Post 3186884)
Marden, since you are sort of probably on probation or something, you should know that the mods are issuing infractions now. I received three for calling Spliffdaddy a gay old goat that needs ointment.

Just sharing this publicly so that others might be aware of these infractions, for those that would prefer to keep their noses clean.
Thanks for the info.

Quote
I received three for calling Spliffdaddy a gay old goat that needs ointment.
Did you get cited because what you said was a lie? Or were you guilty of an etiquette violation?

(BTW, "The Spliffdaddy" has my greatest respect & admiration. :D )
 
besson3c Oct 31, 2006 01:23 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by marden (Post 3186894)
Thanks for the info.



Did you get cited because what you said was a lie? Or were you guilty of an etiquette violation?

(BTW, "The Spliffdaddy" has my greatest respect & admiration. :D )


I got cited three separate times because I was allegedly insulting him. I'll save my comments about this (and Spliffdaddy's) for a private message if at all, because I don't wish to belittle the rules or the enforcer in public.

What is the etiquette violation?

I don't think I could be cited for lying, because I don't think there is a way that we could scientifically prove that Spliffdaddy is, in fact, not a goat. I'm not saying he is one, just that we don't really know for certain either way. You see? That's just the way that science roles sometimes... It can be a bitch but what can you do? It's science.
 
houstonmacbro Oct 31, 2006 01:29 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by besson3c (Post 3186537)
How should he have shed light on it?
perhaps he should have STATED that he knew how to hack it first, before doing so?
 
besson3c Oct 31, 2006 01:31 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by houstonmacbro (Post 3186901)
perhaps he should have STATED that he knew how to hack it first, before doing so?

To whom, and why would anybody listen? They didn't listen to a US senator after all...
 
besson3c Oct 31, 2006 01:34 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by Dork. (Post 3186855)
He seems to be the only one who did it publically. For all we know, any number of people were taking advantage of this loophole, for nefarious purposes. A loophole which Chuck Schumer knew about 18 months ago, who is a person you would think has enough authority to demand changes, and yet nothing happened.

I don't think the FBI necessarily showed poor judgement, though, because they can't assume that this guy was harmless, they are duty-bound to investigate and make sure this wasn't part of something larger. Yes, we are pretty sure now that this guy was simply acting on his own to demonstrate flaws, but that may not have been apparent to the FBI when the story first broke. Unfortunately, being investigated by the FBI for anything computer-related involves an invasive search and the confiscation of most of the computer equipment in your house, which can be ruinious for a grad student working on a thesis. Hopefully, he gets it back in short order.

I feel sorry for the guy, but I can't get too outraged over it.

I guess I don't blame the FBI either, actually... They were just doing their job, although I think that if either party read his blog it would have been pretty clear what the context was. They could have simply asked him to remove the content... getting a search warrant and breaking into his house hardly seems like it was a justified response in appropriate proportion to the severity of the problem, do you agree?
 
marden Oct 31, 2006 04:21 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by besson3c (Post 3186904)
To whom, and why would anybody listen? They didn't listen to a US senator after all...
Democratic Senator Charles Schumer, that is.

Who did HE try to alert to this? ANYONE???

[liberal type of rant that happens when they aren't told what to think]It is proof positive that Democrats can't be trusted with national security. Here the Senator had this info and he did nothing about it at all because he didn't think it was important. He just sat on it and tried to ignore it. That's what Clinton did and that's what ALL Democracks do![/liberal type of rant that happens when they aren't told what to think]
 
houstonmacbro Oct 31, 2006 04:22 AM
such anger and venom.
 
marden Oct 31, 2006 04:28 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by houstonmacbro (Post 3186968)
such anger and venom.
I know. That's what characterizes the left rants from the right's reasoned attempts at dialogue.

:)

Uh, you DID catch the [clues]that I left in italics and in brackets [/clues] right?
 
houstonmacbro Oct 31, 2006 04:36 AM
i guess it's too early for rational thought... or too late.
 
marden Oct 31, 2006 04:52 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by houstonmacbro (Post 3186974)
i guess it's too early for rational thought... or too late.
Really, this is a llama thread now.

Nothing more to be asked, answered, learned, defended or proclaimed that hasn't already been.
 
Dork. Oct 31, 2006 07:33 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by besson3c (Post 3186906)
I guess I don't blame the FBI either, actually... They were just doing their job, although I think that if either party read his blog it would have been pretty clear what the context was. They could have simply asked him to remove the content... getting a search warrant and breaking into his house hardly seems like it was a justified response in appropriate proportion to the severity of the problem, do you agree?
My point is only that the FBI can't gather the full context of the situation just from the guy's blog. They needed to investigate to confirm that the guy wasn't a threat.
 
besson3c Oct 31, 2006 08:25 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by marden (Post 3186967)
Democratic Senator Charles Schumer, that is.

Who did HE try to alert to this? ANYONE???

[liberal type of rant that happens when they aren't told what to think]It is proof positive that Democrats can't be trusted with national security. Here the Senator had this info and he did nothing about it at all because he didn't think it was important. He just sat on it and tried to ignore it. That's what Clinton did and that's what ALL Democracks do![/liberal type of rant that happens when they aren't told what to think]

Wow Marden.... you are really putting yourself on the line here by making assumptions, aren't you?

All I know is that this info was available in a press release. Whether or not he brought this up in the senate and when he did so I'd have to research... Too lazy to do so.

If I had said that he had lunch with Cheney to discuss this very issue, you'd look quite silly now, wouldn't you? It's a good thing I'm a nice guy, because I could have claimed this and you would have had a difficult time proving otherwise, wouldn't you've?
 
besson3c Oct 31, 2006 08:30 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by Dork. (Post 3187030)
My point is only that the FBI can't gather the full context of the situation just from the guy's blog. They needed to investigate to confirm that the guy wasn't a threat.

Do you think they needed to enter his apartment to do so?

Hey Abe, just to further complicate your thinking, the congressman that thought of blowing the whistle on Sogohian... According to your last past he must have been a Republican, right, since only Republicans know how to follow through on possible terrorists/attacks... right?

He's a Democrat.



How I enjoy complicating your thinking you are so cocky about into thinking is complete and well-grounded (and accurate).
 
Dork. Oct 31, 2006 08:54 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by besson3c (Post 3187066)
Do you think they needed to enter his apartment to do so?
Actually, I think it's not unreasonable for them to search his apartment. More importantly, the judge who issued the warrant thought it was reasonable, and his is the only opinion that matters.

It will be interesting, though, to see if he starts getting "randomly" searched at the airport more often....
 
marden Oct 31, 2006 01:58 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by besson3c (Post 3187062)
Wow Marden.... you are really putting yourself on the line here by making assumptions, aren't you?

All I know is that this info was available in a press release. Whether or not he brought this up in the senate and when he did so I'd have to research... Too lazy to do so.

If I had said that he had lunch with Cheney to discuss this very issue, you'd look quite silly now, wouldn't you? It's a good thing I'm a nice guy, because I could have claimed this and you would have had a difficult time proving otherwise, wouldn't you've?
Uh, I think if you look a little closer you'll see that I was parodying someone from your side of the fence. Parodying = mocking or making fun of...I was making a humorously derisive comment at your side's expense by showing what might be one of y'all's typical responses to a similar type of news item.

See, I pretended I was a liberal and then I pretended that I was responding to the news item the way a liberal might have if it was about a republican Senator.

Get it? It was a put on. I was joshin you. I didn't really say that. I don't really feel that way. It was a way of highlighting how liberals let their emotions get the best of them and then they go off half cocked without having all the information with which to form an accurate conclusion.

Gee that was fun.
 
besson3c Oct 31, 2006 02:16 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by marden (Post 3187417)
Uh, I think if you look a little closer you'll see that I was parodying someone from your side of the fence. Parodying = mocking or making fun of...I was making a humorously derisive comment at your side's expense by showing what might be one of y'all's typical responses to a similar type of news item.

See, I pretended I was a liberal and then I pretended that I was responding to the news item the way a liberal might have if it was about a republican Senator.

Get it? It was a put on. I was joshin you. I didn't really say that. I don't really feel that way. It was a way of highlighting how liberals let their emotions get the best of them and then they go off half cocked without having all the information with which to form an accurate conclusion.

Gee that was fun.

Marden, I think I can safely say that I'm not the only one that has a hard time understanding many of the things you say the way you say them, and I think it can also be safely said that these misunderstanding occur frequently enough by non-partisans and partisans to make dumb generalizations like you are doing here (ironically likely based on your own emotions).

So... whatever.


I'm also not an idiot, perhaps you should keep this in mind the next time you might be wondering why your antics aren't particularly popular around here the next time you feel compelled to carry on one of these bizarre and obscure experiments of yours.

I could have told you the results of your experiment even before carrying it out: making emotional statements is not a partisan trait.

Really dude, you need a swift kick of humility in your ass... You don't have all of the "facts" straight anymore than any of us here, you have your perceptions and opinions, just like any of us here. It's really that simple.
 
Spliffdaddy Oct 31, 2006 02:54 PM
Oh man. They took the guy's hard drives and stuff. Well, he's toast.

I think we could all be indicted for something if the feds confiscated our hard drives.

I think I'm gonna erase some stuff.
 
Dork. Oct 31, 2006 03:02 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy (Post 3187486)
Oh man. They took the guy's hard drives and stuff. Well, he's toast.

I think we could all be indicted for something if the feds confiscated our hard drives.

I think I'm gonna erase some stuff.
It's too late, the Total Information Awareness backdoor that was included in Windows XP has already made a mirror of your entire hard drive on NSA computers. Too bad you don't use a Mac, that feature isn't slated to be included until Leopard.

;)
 
Mark Larr Oct 31, 2006 03:05 PM
He might as well have gone and shouted movie in a firehouse.
 
besson3c Oct 31, 2006 03:11 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy (Post 3187486)
Oh man. They took the guy's hard drives and stuff. Well, he's toast.

I think we could all be indicted for something if the feds confiscated our hard drives.

I think I'm gonna erase some stuff.


Please be sure to delete your pictures of me from your hard drive, I don't want to be linked to your illegal operations.
 
Dork. Oct 31, 2006 03:13 PM
You may want to give besson3c back his ointment, too....
 
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