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-   -   Osama Bin Laden: Myth or Reality? (http://forums.macnn.com/95/political-war-lounge/438702/osama-bin-laden-myth-or-reality/)

 
freudling May 2, 2011 12:29 PM
Osama Bin Laden: Myth or Reality?
I see all these news stories flooding the net about Osama Bin Laden being dead, killed by US Forces. Keywords like "victory" and the US "got him in the end"... all this seems so contrived.

I see pictures of Americans celebrating, taking to the streets. Rob Lowe even smiling and celebrating.

As someone with a background in security and the military... now far away from it... I find it fascinating how quickly people just believe what the media spits out.

I don't deny terrorism, real threats to security... But:

I don't know for sure either way, but personally my perspective is that the whole "Osama Bin Laden thing" is bullshit. There is no "devil" out to get all Americans.

That Bin Laden was a made up character in order for the US to manufacture fear and consent to go to war to kick start the economy and secure oil.

Now, the fact that he's "dead"... Americans have another reason to be afraid: revenge from Al Qaeda. The "terrorism" saga continues...

America: ~4000 killed at the WTC on 9/11. Afghanistan: hundreds of thousands of civilians killed during the US' occupation there... women... little babies in pieces rotting on the streets... Sounds fair, doesn't it?
 
ShortcutToMoncton May 2, 2011 12:52 PM
Great story bro
 
Chongo May 2, 2011 01:17 PM
 
Dork. May 2, 2011 01:24 PM
If it were a myth, don't you think we would have "found" him sooner?
 
SpaceMonkey May 2, 2011 01:32 PM
So you're saying that in addition to the death certificate, we'll need Osama's long form birth certificate, college transcripts, and any notes he might have shared with Bill Ayers?
 
Athens May 2, 2011 01:40 PM
Osama Bin Laden -> Real CIA Agent for the US Government during USSR invasion of the middle east in the 80s. Funding by the US government and armed.
Al-Qaeda - Myth, CIA Software Program originally turned into BS cover for internally created terrorist events to help sway American people to give more power to the Government. Exact same as the burning of the Reichstag allowing for the Enabling Act which the Patriot Act resembles.

What I suspect, Osama died of Natural Causes of old age and this just covers up his 10 year lavish life style paid by the US government for taking the blame of the Terrorist acts allowing the patriot act. He died of natural causes so they pretend they found and killed him and sank him at see to hide the evidence of a natural death. Or Obama wanted a diversion over the Birth Certificate stuff and decided to kill one of there own operatives, Osama saving the tax payer money of continuing to pay him off for taking the blame of the Terrorist acts.
 
The Final Dakar May 2, 2011 01:42 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by Athens (Post 4072943)
Osama Bin Laden -> Real CIA Agent for the US Government during USSR invasion of the middle east in the 80s. Funding by the US government and armed.
Al-Qaeda - Myth, CIA Software Program originally turned into BS cover for internally created terrorist events to help sway American people to give more power to the Government. Exact same as the burning of the Reichstag allowing for the Enabling Act which the Patriot Act resembles.

What I suspect, Osama died of Natural Causes of old age and this just covers up his 10 year lavish life style paid by the US government for taking the blame of the Terrorist acts allowing the patriot act. He died of natural causes so they pretend they found and killed him and sank him at see to hide the evidence of a natural death. Or Obama wanted a diversion over the Birth Certificate stuff and decided to kill one of there own operatives, Osama saving the tax payer money of continuing to pay him off for taking the blame of the Terrorist acts.
Gut feeling?
 
Athens May 2, 2011 01:45 PM
 
Athens May 2, 2011 01:46 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by The Final Dakar (Post 4072945)
Gut feeling?
Evidence and Logic
 
SpaceMonkey May 2, 2011 01:50 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by Athens (Post 4072947)
Yep. You can tell, because in the second picture he wasn't shot in the face.
 
Athens May 2, 2011 01:53 PM
Look at the lips, beard, teeth, checks, its the same photo with another head of a dead person copied on top. Look at the skin color. Right photo Source, left photo fake using part of the source image on the right.....
 
SpaceMonkey May 2, 2011 01:57 PM
Two photos of the same person appearing to show similar features? No, I don't believe it. You'll need to show me the pixels.
 
olePigeon May 2, 2011 02:17 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by Athens (Post 4072951)
Look at the lips, beard, teeth, checks, its the same photo with another head of a dead person copied on top. Look at the skin color. Right photo Source, left photo fake using part of the source image on the right.....
The photo was from 2009 story from an online Middle Eastern media website. It has nothing to do with the current events. Yes, it's fake.
 
SpaceMonkey May 2, 2011 02:22 PM
TMZ is on the case:

Osama bin Laden -- BOGUS Death Photo | TMZ.com

Sounds like this photo did not originate with the U.S. government.
 
sek929 May 2, 2011 03:25 PM
If we really wanted to start wars to secure oil we should have manufactured a Canadian terrorist, since...you know, most of our oil comes from Canada.
 
Waragainstsleep May 2, 2011 03:55 PM
He is obviously a real guy (or was), I never heard anyone offer any reason as to why he was connected to 9/11 in the first place. The picture that was painted of him was of someone who publicly and proudly hated the west. I always thought it odd he never released any audio or video taking credit for the attacks. Plus such a hateful man would have scheduled the attacks a couple of hours later on an increased the death toll ten fold or more.

Al Qaeda is the more likely myth in my opinion. A terrorist organisation that is set up so that no cell knows about the operations of any other cell makes for great episodes of 24 but in reality is not so different from a number of small unrelated organisations. It stinks of a branding exercise.
 
ShortcutToMoncton May 2, 2011 04:22 PM
You should get more...sleep
 
finboy May 2, 2011 08:01 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by freudling (Post 4072912)
I see all these news stories flooding the net about Osama Bin Laden being dead, killed by US Forces. Keywords like "victory" and the US "got him in the end"... all this seems so contrived.

I see pictures of Americans celebrating, taking to the streets. Rob Lowe even smiling and celebrating.

As someone with a background in security and the military... now far away from it... I find it fascinating how quickly people just believe what the media spits out.

I don't deny terrorism, real threats to security... But:

I don't know for sure either way, but personally my perspective is that the whole "Osama Bin Laden thing" is bullshit. There is no "devil" out to get all Americans.

That Bin Laden was a made up character in order for the US to manufacture fear and consent to go to war to kick start the economy and secure oil.

Now, the fact that he's "dead"... Americans have another reason to be afraid: revenge from Al Qaeda. The "terrorism" saga continues...

America: ~4000 killed at the WTC on 9/11. Afghanistan: hundreds of thousands of civilians killed during the US' occupation there... women... little babies in pieces rotting on the streets... Sounds fair, doesn't it?
I'll be willing to at least entertain this idea as plausible if you'll entertain the idea that the Left consciously uses
class warfare propaganda to manipulate the "poor" in this country against the "rich."

Throw in some admission that global warming is simply mass hysteria and I'll concede that OBL never gassed puppies for giggles, either.
 
lpkmckenna May 2, 2011 08:22 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep (Post 4072984)
He is obviously a real guy (or was), I never heard anyone offer any reason as to why he was connected to 9/11 in the first place. The picture that was painted of him was of someone who publicly and proudly hated the west. I always thought it odd he never released any audio or video taking credit for the attacks. Plus such a hateful man would have scheduled the attacks a couple of hours later on an increased the death toll ten fold or more.

Al Qaeda is the more likely myth in my opinion. A terrorist organisation that is set up so that no cell knows about the operations of any other cell makes for great episodes of 24 but in reality is not so different from a number of small unrelated organisations. It stinks of a branding exercise.
7/10. Good show!
 
Chongo May 2, 2011 08:22 PM
 
Chongo May 2, 2011 09:23 PM
yep, he's announced the start of deatherism
 
freudling May 3, 2011 10:55 AM
I don't listen to Alex Jones really, but I did tune in last night. He is a bit of an alarmist ********, but on this issue, I'm right beside him 100%. Like me and others, he just can't believe that anyone is buying any of this.

The cherry on top? Bin Laden buried at sea? Jesus, this is worse than a Days of Our Lives episode. Please, America, don't be so gullible. What happen over the past decade was disgusting. The sad reality... if your country goes broke, which it seems on track to becoming, how many people in the world are going to feel 'sorry' for you?

Reality bites, hard.
 
imitchellg5 May 3, 2011 11:26 AM
Thank goodness we have you to let us know that everything is horribly wrong.
 
ebuddy May 3, 2011 10:46 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by freudling (Post 4072912)
I don't know for sure either way, but personally my perspective is that the whole "Osama Bin Laden thing" is bullshit. There is no "devil" out to get all Americans.
Never mind the fact almost any expert of security and the military privy to such information would assure you of the contrary...

Quote
That Bin Laden was a made up character in order for the US to manufacture fear and consent to go to war to kick start the economy and secure oil.
Where's all this oil then? Can you show me some of those spigots in Iraq with U.S.A. stamped on them? I'd like to point this out to our government before gas goes to $4.50/gallon.

The war in Afghanistan was for poppies no doubt.
 
Kerrigan May 3, 2011 10:54 PM
Craziness.
 
freudling May 4, 2011 02:51 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by ebuddy (Post 4073484)
Never mind the fact almost any expert of security and the military privy to such information would assure you of the contrary...


Where's all this oil then? Can you show me some of those spigots in Iraq with U.S.A. stamped on them? I'd like to point this out to our government before gas goes to $4.50/gallon.

The war in Afghanistan was for poppies no doubt.
What makes you think prices of oil should be going down?
 
ebuddy May 4, 2011 08:32 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by freudling (Post 4073536)
What makes you think prices of oil should be going down?
That's not what I asked you. I asked you for the Iraqi spigots with U.S.A. stamped on them. If the ridiculously expensive action in Iraq was for oil and our economy; where is the oil and to what affect on our economy? Are we pumping oil and money out of Afghanistan too?
 
ShortcutToMoncton May 4, 2011 09:54 AM
"Mankind's only chance is to harness the power of stupid."

What is it about this place lately that makes this appropriate in almost every thread? :confused:
 
SpaceMonkey May 4, 2011 10:27 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton (Post 4073591)
"Mankind's only chance is to harness the power of stupid."

What is it about this place lately that makes this appropriate in almost every thread? :confused:
Apparently the only thing keeping us together was Osama. :cry:
 
Face Ache May 4, 2011 08:26 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton (Post 4073591)
"Mankind's only chance is to harness the power of stupid."
Here's me quoting you quoting me. :D

Quote, Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton (Post 4073591)
What is it about this place lately that makes this appropriate in almost every thread? :confused:
Lately?! I've been visiting this forum for nearly ten years, purely for the quality of stupid on offer here. Posters here are attracted like iron filings to the stupid magnet that is MacNN, revealing a rare Internet Stupidity Field.

Concentrated stupid such as this should be savoured like a fine wine, my friend. Relish every word. :D



Adam Curtis (Century of Self, Power of Nightmares) nails the Bin Laden situation here.

Quote
Bin Laden and his ideological mentor, Ayman al-Zawahiri, talked about "the near enemy" and the "far enemy". But from 2001 onwards they became America's "far enemy". Neoconservative politicians, who had last tasted real power under President Reagan during the cold war, took the few known facts about Bin Laden and Zawahiri and fitted them to the template they knew so well: an evil enemy with sleeper cells and "tentacles" throughout the world, whose sole aim was the destruction of western civilisation. Al-Qaida became the new Soviet Union, and in the process Bin Laden became a demonic, terrifyingly powerful figure brooding in a cave while he controlled and directed the al-Qaida network throughout the world. In this way, a serious but manageable terrorist threat became grossly exaggerated.

Journalists, many of whom also yearned for the simplicity of the old days, grabbed at this: from the outset, the reporting of the Islamist terror threat was distorted to reflect this dominant simplified narrative. And Bin Laden grabbed at it too. As the journalists who actually met him report, he was brilliant at publicity. All three – the neoconservatives, the "terror journalists", and Bin Laden himself – effectively worked together to create a dramatically simple story of looming apocalypse. It wasn't in any way a conspiracy. Each of them had stumbled in their different ways on a simplified fantasy that fitted with their own needs.
 
Waragainstsleep May 4, 2011 08:49 PM
Iraq was about oil, Afghanistan was just revenge to appease the voters.
 
ebuddy May 5, 2011 07:55 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep (Post 4073823)
Iraq was about oil...
Okay I'll ask you then, where's the oil?

Seven major contracts were granted via auction in 2009 projected to produce up to 12 million barrels per day by 2016 and comprise the lion's share of Iraqi oil output, can you tell me how many of those contracts went to the US or US firms? *Hint: it'll be hard to find the US influence in the majority contracts granted to Russia, China, and even Angola.
 
ebuddy May 5, 2011 07:59 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey (Post 4073601)
Apparently the only thing keeping us together was Osama. :cry:
:lol:
 
Sealobo May 5, 2011 08:29 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey (Post 4073601)
Apparently the only thing keeping us together was Osama. :cry:
hasn't this always been the doctrine of the US? a common enemy is the best way to unite the States.
 
ebuddy May 5, 2011 08:35 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by Sealobo (Post 4073911)
hasn't this always been the doctrine of the US? a common enemy is the best way to unite the States.
How is this a US doctrine? Isn't this merely a facet of mankind or has the US become the common enemy that unites others like say... Russia, China, Syria, Iran...?
 
Wiskedjak May 5, 2011 09:20 AM
It's a pretty common political ploy to utilize (or introduce) a common enemy to distract people from your weaknesses.
 
BadKosh May 5, 2011 01:31 PM
I hear OBL was killed by his own body guard to keep him from spilling the beans.
 
Athens May 5, 2011 01:38 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by ebuddy (Post 4073902)
Okay I'll ask you then, where's the oil?

Seven major contracts were granted via auction in 2009 projected to produce up to 12 million barrels per day by 2016 and comprise the lion's share of Iraqi oil output, can you tell me how many of those contracts went to the US or US firms? *Hint: it'll be hard to find the US influence in the majority contracts granted to Russia, China, and even Angola.
IT was about the oil but not flowing oil. Saddam was going to switch Oil from being backed by US money to the Euro and was going to get all of Opec to make the switch. This would have been devastating to the US so they took him out.
 
sek929 May 5, 2011 02:26 PM
How would Saddam make all of OPEC switch currencies? Why would OPEC want to shun the largest consumer of oil in the world?
 
freudling May 5, 2011 02:43 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by Athens (Post 4073976)
IT was about the oil but not flowing oil. Saddam was going to switch Oil from being backed by US money to the Euro and was going to get all of Opec to make the switch. This would have been devastating to the US so they took him out.
What better way to manufacture fear and consent to go to war with Iraq... to take control of the oil situation there... than with a character like OBL. Now that the 'terrorism' threat is staged, we can find all these excuses to go to war. In Saddam's case, he was supposed to have been a supporter of terrorist groups, in addition to having WMD. The argument goes... someone who supports terrorists and has WMD... that terrorist groups could potentially launch nuclear weapons against the developed world... this is a person that must be taken out.

Aside from the oil situation, the threat to the US where Saddam was wanting to lean the price of oil against the Euro rather than the US dollar... aside from that, war is an excellent way to kickstart economies. Countless industries benefit from war with all of the munitions, supplies, and research and development and other contracts spit out from it. It's the good old military industrial complex at work.

In Russia's case, the occupation of Afghanistan... a big part of that was simply to lure the US into a war with them. But the US was smart: they sent munitions and money to the Afghan military, thereby indirectly fighting the big red machine without getting any blood on their hands. Russia was essentially "stumped" and was like a lost child in a department store. Eventually, they gave up and got out. By then, it was too late. They were so broke their whole system collapsed...

If you believe that America spent hundreds of billions of dollars a year for several years in a row without expecting an ROI... that Americans are "freedom fighters"... that war really is about idealistic purposes and not money and control of power, land, and people... you're truly sad.

From the experience I have... from the research I've done... from what I know... OBL is simply a myth who doesn't exist in the way the media has portrayed him to us. The media told a story, and people buy it. It's repugnant and terrible. But hey, if you want to believe in boogymen, go ahead...
 
ShortcutToMoncton May 5, 2011 04:19 PM
I'm listening. Who is he, then? Where's your evidence?
 
Chongo May 5, 2011 05:48 PM
Someone's been listening to the Alex Jones show.
 
freudling May 5, 2011 10:20 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by Chongo (Post 4074048)
Someone's been listening to the Alex Jones show.
Jesus. No, I do not listen to Alex Jones, I think he's an alarmist jerk. I did tune in, like I said, once the other night. And the only reason is because I got a new iPod Touch and saw the App in the App Store. I downloaded it to try out streaming radio, among a boatload of other Apps and tuned in. Actually, glad I did. It was a good show and a nice App.

On this point about the myth of OBL, I agree.

To all the "The New York Times published an article that OBL was killed, that it's a victory for the US, so it must be all true!" people, I have a question: do you believe in Santa Claus?
 
ebuddy May 5, 2011 10:41 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by freudling (Post 4073995)
Aside from the oil situation, the threat to the US where Saddam was wanting to lean the price of oil against the Euro rather than the US dollar... aside from that, war is an excellent way to kickstart economies. Countless industries benefit from war with all of the munitions, supplies, and research and development and other contracts spit out from it. It's the good old military industrial complex at work.
Right, so the claimant should be able to show the ROI, but you see... there isn't any. You can't tell me what appreciable gain in the economy has resulted from action in Iraq because action in Iraq, including the oil contracts it has granted out, has been a net-loss. The ROI is staging grounds in Iraq as a check to those Iraq was in an arms race against, evidenced by the massive embassy stationed there. Iraq has oil and commodities like this are critical for a burgeoning democracy to succeed. In short, 12 years of economic sanctions and 13 UN Resolutions wasn't working either. Prosperity is infectious and it works from the inside-out. Perhaps someday they'll share the spoils of their improved livelihood with those who shed blood helping them get it. I'm not holding my breath, but only time will tell. At present - no economic ROI.

Quote
In Russia's case, the occupation of Afghanistan... a big part of that was simply to lure the US into a war with them. But the US was smart: they sent munitions and money to the Afghan military, thereby indirectly fighting the big red machine without getting any blood on their hands. Russia was essentially "stumped" and was like a lost child in a department store. Eventually, they gave up and got out. By then, it was too late. They were so broke their whole system collapsed...
Correct. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. This is the way of things and is not exclusive to US foreign policy. It does work from time to time which is why governments employ the tactic. It has a tendency to backfire eventually because after all, you're dealing with despots in the Middle East. The implications of non-action too often beg for action. No one has all the answers. Not the ones who failed to protect their interests and not the ones bent on protecting them.

Quote
If you believe that America spent hundreds of billions of dollars a year for several years in a row without expecting an ROI... that Americans are "freedom fighters"... that war really is about idealistic purposes and not money and control of power, land, and people... you're truly sad.
Conversely, if you believe everything you see on low-budget French documentaries complete with spooky music and zippy frames for the short attention span; you're not only being duped by sensationalism, but get to enjoy the incredibly myopic misdirect provided you by anti-capitalists bent on fomenting concern over US black helicopters and oil interests so you'll forget that every governing ideal on the planet is attempting to position themselves geopolitically. Don't blame the US. Even animal predators fight over the gazelle-laden plains. It is the way of things.

Quote
From the experience I have... from the research I've done... from what I know... OBL is simply a myth who doesn't exist in the way the media has portrayed him to us. The media told a story, and people buy it. It's repugnant and terrible. But hey, if you want to believe in boogymen, go ahead...
There weren't thousands of people in the streets over Usama, maybe hundreds. Whatever media you're ingesting may be making more of him than anyone else. I think you'll find the hotness of this story fading rather quickly.
 
ebuddy May 5, 2011 10:48 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by freudling (Post 4074101)
To all the "The New York Times published an article that OBL was killed, that it's a victory for the US, so it must be all true!" people, I have a question: do you believe in Santa Claus?
No. This is why people who get their information on Santa Claus from the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, the Sandman, and the little green leprechaun make even less sense.
 
freudling May 5, 2011 11:06 PM
Imagine a world where people don't really care too much about you. Imagine a world where governments and big companies operate in connection with each other to control people, land, and resources. Imagine a world where companies like Good Year Tire hire private military soldiers to guard land that they annex abroad in order to mine for raw materials for their tires, so they can be more profitable. Imagine a world where the country of Georgia has been 7 years overdue on a $100 million bill owed to an American energy company, and how that can lead to tensions between both governments. Imagine a world where a government would kill its own president. Imagine a world where a developed country would allow the dropping of an atomic bomb on thousands of civilians. Imagine a world where a government would give fake Canadian passports to two military hitmen to assassinate two major Army leaders in Palestine. Imagine a world where the media has agendas and tries to manipulate people into buying products and ideas. Imagine a world where governments and companies send out astroturfers on the Internet to argue against and belittle anyone critical of their products, services, or policies.

Imagine a world where people bullshit each other all the time.
 
Athens May 6, 2011 01:00 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by freudling (Post 4074113)
Imagine a world where people don't really care too much about you. Imagine a world where governments and big companies operate in connection with each other to control people, land, and resources. Imagine a world where companies like Good Year Tire hire private military soldiers to guard land that they annex abroad in order to mine for raw materials for their tires, so they can be more profitable. Imagine a world where the country of Georgia has been 7 years overdue on a $100 million bill owed to an American energy company, and how that can lead to tensions between both governments. Imagine a world where a government would kill its own president. Imagine a world where a developed country would allow the dropping of an atomic bomb on thousands of civilians. Imagine a world where a government would give fake Canadian passports to two military hitmen to assassinate two major Army leaders in Palestine. Imagine a world where the media has agendas and tries to manipulate people into buying products and ideas. Imagine a world where governments and companies send out astroturfers on the Internet to argue against and belittle anyone critical of their products, services, or policies.

Imagine a world where people bullshit each other all the time.
Don't have to imagine it. I just look south and see it.
 
ShortcutToMoncton May 6, 2011 08:12 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by freudling (Post 4074113)
Imagine a world where people don't really care too much about you. Imagine a world where governments and big companies operate in connection with each other to control people, land, and resources. Imagine a world where companies like Good Year Tire hire private military soldiers to guard land that they annex abroad in order to mine for raw materials for their tires, so they can be more profitable. Imagine a world where the country of Georgia has been 7 years overdue on a $100 million bill owed to an American energy company, and how that can lead to tensions between both governments. Imagine a world where a government would kill its own president. Imagine a world where a developed country would allow the dropping of an atomic bomb on thousands of civilians. Imagine a world where a government would give fake Canadian passports to two military hitmen to assassinate two major Army leaders in Palestine. Imagine a world where the media has agendas and tries to manipulate people into buying products and ideas. Imagine a world where governments and companies send out astroturfers on the Internet to argue against and belittle anyone critical of their products, services, or policies.

Imagine a world where people bullshit each other all the time.
Imagine a world where a proud citizen of his country, which has competitively low corporate tax rates compared to other highly developed countries, would move himself and his entire business to another country just to save himself from having to pay said home country several percentage points in taxes for the pleasure of having free healthcare, free primary education and heavily subsidized higher education, and other associated benefits of a country with a moderate tradition of socialized safety nets.

Now imagine a world where that person complains about the steps other corporations take in order to become more profitable.

Imagine a world where people bullshit each other all the time.
 
ebuddy May 6, 2011 08:30 AM
Imagine a forum like MacNN providing a pulpit from which to preach whatever unsubstantiated, xenophobic ill has been perpetuated by a contrarian ideology and its sensation-peddling media. Imagine this right being protected by law. Imagine a programmed ignorance with so much focus on one nation and its folly that it fails to recognize the folly that stares it in the face. Imagine a world where human nature doesn't exist and a nation at war would not expend every last man, woman, and child available to it. Imagine a sect of people collecting onto a small, undeveloped sliver of territory only to have it usurped and flanked by hostility when it becomes productive. Imagine a world that does not empower individuals with their own opportunities of prosperity and where your contributions are dictated by your government from birth; where women and children are used as cogs in the wheel of an imperialism that would never represent or protect them.

Imagine a world with no competing interests, no disagreements, no differences in ideals, and no desire to spread them. A world run by little, white snow seal pups... or Santa Claus.
 
ShortcutToMoncton May 6, 2011 10:09 AM
I could say-ayyyyy you're a dreamer...
 
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