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-   -   Putin's New York Times article about Syria (http://forums.macnn.com/95/political-war-lounge/503948/putins-new-york-times-article-about/)

 
shifuimam Sep 12, 2013 10:06 AM
Putin's New York Times article about Syria
Soooo this was published today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/op...-on-syria.html

Given the media's reaction to Russia working to take Assad's chemical weapons, I'm guessing most people here in the US are going to immediately decry Putin. Of course, that doesn't change the validity of his points.
 
subego Sep 13, 2013 02:32 AM
Not seeing it yet...
 
OldManMac Sep 13, 2013 07:50 AM
Putin is a hypocrite of the first order. He uses god's name to justify what he's saying, yet during the reign of the KGB, which he was once in charge of, he no doubt was directly involved in persecuting Christians. His country also has no moral ground to stand on, as regards its own history in atrocities. Cherry-picking interventions may work for the gullible, but they have no basis in morality.

Cherry-Picking Evil | Common Dreams
 
OAW Sep 13, 2013 02:49 PM
My take on Putin's op-ed is that it is a prime example of how someone can have valid points and be full of sh*t at the same time. :err:

OAW
 
shifuimam Sep 13, 2013 05:50 PM
I don't really think it's black and white in the slightest.

There are some good points in there. I don't think he doesn't have an ulterior motive, but I have a much bigger problem with the US giving weapons to the Syrian rebels than I do with Putin having an article published in the NYT.

We already saw in Egypt that the almighty Arab Spring is just a bunch of FUD. The citizens of these countries are simply exchanging one oppressive dictatorship for another. There is no real democracy taking place; there is no constitution being written and guaranteed to be upheld by the new leader of the country. Instead of a secular dictatorship, the citizens are choosing a religious one, which can have much more catastrophic effects in the rest of the world, because it absolutely allows for fundamentalist, militant, violent Muslim factions to gain a much stronger foothold than just being loosely-gathered groups scattered throughout the Middle East.

I don't oppose removing a dictator from his seat of power. It's a pointless endeavor, however, when he's just going to be replaced with a different brand of crazy, and that's what Syria is shaping up to be.

Also: at least Putin is saying something even remotely coherent. All Obama has done is lie to the American public about pretty much everything that's happened stateside and overseas for most of this year.
 
ebuddy Sep 14, 2013 11:50 AM
For me, Putin's tell was the statements he made on the dangers of "exceptionalism". He's toying with Obama.

So, the most recent news is that Kerry brokered a deal with Russia further leveraging Obama's foot-in-mouth for shrewd Russian foreign policy. This has got to be the single dumbest thing I've seen to date.

US-Russia reach agreement on Syria weapons

Remember, it took 8+ years to pull WMDs from Libya and they weren't mired in a civil war. There is no cease-fire in sight here. And then the U.N. penalties? I have no idea.
  • Under the framework agreement, international inspectors are to be on the ground in Syria by November. During that month, they are to complete their initial assessment and all mixing and filling equipment for chemical weapons is to be destroyed.
  • The deal calls for all components of the chemical weapons program to be removed from the country or destroyed by mid-2014. *Mid 2014?!? Does this at all match the alleged urgency of the situation?
  • The agreement offers no specific penalties. Given that a thorough investigation of any allegation of noncompliance is required before any possible action, Moscow could drag out the process or veto measures it deems too harsh.
  • "There is an agreement between Russia and the United States that non-compliance is going to be held accountable within the Security Council under Chapter 7," Kerry said. "What remedy is chosen is subject to the debate within the council, which is always true. But there's a commitment to impose measures." *HINT: Russia will veto military action and it won't matter because they've already effectively delayed any action against Assad.
  • "Any violations of procedures ... would be looked at by the Security Council and if they are approved, the Security Council would take the required measures, concrete measures," Lavrov said. "Nothing is said about the use of force or about any automatic sanctions." Practically in the same friggin' sentence. :shake:

I wonder if there would be any way to verify where these weapons came from. It's a little more than coincidence to me that our Intel during the Bush Administration reported the very real probability that Iraq's WMDs were moved to Syria and we're now sitting here trying to identify what Syria has.
 
aristotles Sep 15, 2013 01:16 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by OldManMac (Post 4247564)
Putin is a hypocrite of the first order. He uses god's name to justify what he's saying, yet during the reign of the KGB, which he was once in charge of, he no doubt was directly involved in persecuting Christians. His country also has no moral ground to stand on, as regards its own history in atrocities. Cherry-picking interventions may work for the gullible, but they have no basis in morality.
Do you have any understanding of how christianity works? How do any of us know what is in Putin's heart? If you are a christian and you are judging people you don't know based on their past sins then you would be considered a "hypocrite". He who has no sin cast the first stone. Maybe he is a changed man? Are you the same person as you were on the playground in school? Are the the same person that you were in high school? Are you the same man that you were in your youth? Are you perhaps cherry picking?

Shouldn't we be concerned more with the recent inconsistency between what Obama said during both of his presidential campaigns and his actions while in office?

Even if we assume that Putin has not changed and is acting out of a hidden agenda, what does that say about the American president if a former KGB office is calling for peace and the man who campaigned on a "peace" platform for his first term is secretly arming the rebels?

Let me try to explain something to you. Christianity is about forgiveness and reconciliation with god and that forgiveness is a gift that cannot be earned by acts of kindness. It can only be received as a gift of grace by a repentant heart of someone who has surrendered themselves to god. Everyone including Putin is eligible for that gift from god.
 
Laminar Sep 15, 2013 01:39 AM
This thread's about to get a whole lot better.
 
subego Sep 15, 2013 03:36 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by aristotles (Post 4247794)
Do you have any understanding of how christianity works? How do any of us know what is in Putin's heart? If you are a christian and you are judging people you don't know based on their past sins then you would be considered a "hypocrite". He who has no sin cast the first stone. Maybe he is a changed man? Are you the same person as you were on the playground in school? Are the the same person that you were in high school? Are you the same man that you were in your youth? Are you perhaps cherry picking?

Shouldn't we be concerned more with the recent inconsistency between what Obama said during both of his presidential campaigns and his actions while in office?

Even if we assume that Putin has not changed and is acting out of a hidden agenda, what does that say about the American president if a former KGB office is calling for peace and the man who campaigned on a "peace" platform for his first term is secretly arming the rebels?

Let me try to explain something to you. Christianity is about forgiveness and reconciliation with god and that forgiveness is a gift that cannot be earned by acts of kindness. It can only be received as a gift of grace by a repentant heart of someone who has surrendered themselves to god. Everyone including Putin is eligible for that gift from god.
I'm not god. Putin can **** off and die.

As can his apologists.
 
Shaddim Sep 15, 2013 05:36 AM
Many girls, teens, have been hospitalized due to Putin's tender affections over the years, a few even needed more grave attention. I can't say how I found out, but I trust the source. He's a vicious, dangerous person with a lust for cruelty and power. If he's talking peace and reconciliation, watch your ass.
 
ebuddy Sep 15, 2013 07:38 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by aristotles (Post 4247794)
Let me try to explain something to you. Christianity is about forgiveness and reconciliation with god and that forgiveness is a gift that cannot be earned by acts of kindness. It can only be received as a gift of grace by a repentant heart of someone who has surrendered themselves to god. Everyone including Putin is eligible for that gift from god.
I trust then, you're familiar with the following from Matthew 7:15-20; Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Does this get Obama off the hook? No and in fact from looking throughout this forum am not seeing too many favorable reviews of Obama's actions either. This thread is about Putin's piece of this.
 
pooka Sep 15, 2013 10:12 AM
Come on. Really? We're going to do this? Putin wrote this? Peace?

I say we close this place down and just move over to reddit
 
shifuimam Sep 15, 2013 06:42 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by Shaddim (Post 4247815)
Many girls, teens, have been hospitalized due to Putin's tender affections over the years, a few even needed more grave attention. I can't say how I found out, but I trust the source. He's a vicious, dangerous person with a lust for cruelty and power. If he's talking peace and reconciliation, watch your ass.
Oh, come on. Your "connections" have apparently made you believe that you can just make up shit about people as much as you want, claim you have "connections" and a "trusted source", and nobody's allowed to say anything about it.

If you're going to accuse a guy of systematically raping girls, you should probably have something to back up your accusation before crowing about it on the Internet.
 
shifuimam Sep 15, 2013 06:47 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by ebuddy (Post 4247820)
I trust then, you're familiar with the following from Matthew 7:15-20; Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Does this get Obama off the hook? No and in fact from looking throughout this forum am not seeing too many favorable reviews of Obama's actions either. This thread is about Putin's piece of this.
Well, I think talking about Obama's role in this whole stupid debacle is pretty relevant. Let's say that Putin is just a power-mad crazed dictator. Okay, great. He wrote this letter in the NYT as a way to try and manipulate the American people.

Why in the world is Obama more or less sitting back and continuing to act like the American public is a just a mass of unwashed, uneducated pigs? I don't know enough about Putin to pass judgment on him one way or the other. If he really is just a madman, that makes it even more sad that he's the one reaching out to the population of the United States on a global issue that we, as American citizens, care a lot about.
 
Laminar Sep 15, 2013 06:52 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by shifuimam (Post 4247867)
Oh, come on. Your "connections" have apparently made you believe that you can just make up shit about people as much as you want, claim you have "connections" and a "trusted source", and nobody's allowed to say anything about it.

If you're going to accuse a guy of systematically raping girls, you should probably have something to back up your accusation before crowing about it on the Internet.
Don't worry, he's also best friends with James May.
 
Shaddim Sep 15, 2013 08:37 PM
Quote, Originally Posted by Laminar (Post 4247870)
Don't worry, he's also best friends with James May.
Best? No, but I have exchanged quite a few PMs and tweets with James, Jeremy too. You both need a box of these and some private time?


http://www.sentherway.com/assets/images/tampax_012.png
 
shifuimam Sep 15, 2013 09:05 PM
High five for knowing a famous person! You are SO ****ING SPECIAL!

Accusing someone - anyone - of systematically and violently raping young girls and then claiming you can't back up your accusation for reasons you can't discuss is absolutely despicable.

Provide some evidence. Otherwise you're really reaching a whole new level of scumbag with that one.
 
Shaddim Sep 16, 2013 01:44 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by shifuimam (Post 4247879)
High five for knowing a famous person! You are SO ****ING SPECIAL!

Accusing someone - anyone - of systematically and violently raping young girls and then claiming you can't back up your accusation for reasons you can't discuss is absolutely despicable.

Provide some evidence. Otherwise you're really reaching a whole new level of scumbag with that one.
*shakes head after sipping his coffee, then steps into 4th dimensional, super-objective mode, a la. Deadpool*

You're doing it wrong, I don't respond well to your tone or that tactic. Just an FYI, there.

*exits 4D, S-O mode, but continues to sip coffee*
 
Laminar Sep 16, 2013 01:50 AM
Shouldn't you be drinking tea?
 
Shaddim Sep 16, 2013 02:08 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by Laminar (Post 4247917)
Shouldn't you be drinking tea?
In the morning? Tea is around 3pm.
 
subego Sep 16, 2013 02:13 AM
Tea is good anytime. As is Mountain Dew.
 
Shaddim Sep 16, 2013 02:32 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by subego (Post 4247923)
Tea is good anytime. As is Mountain Dew.
I assumed he meant hot tea, I agree that (sweetened) iced tea is good whenever. This weekend I introduced a neighbor to southern-style sweet tea and they loved it, maybe I can start a new fad?
 
Laminar Sep 16, 2013 04:14 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by subego (Post 4247923)
As is Mountain Dew.
But best when eating Doritos and playing Halo.
 
ebuddy Sep 16, 2013 07:54 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by shifuimam (Post 4247869)
Well, I think talking about Obama's role in this whole stupid debacle is pretty relevant. Let's say that Putin is just a power-mad crazed dictator. Okay, great. He wrote this letter in the NYT as a way to try and manipulate the American people.
He didn't have to attempt to manipulate the American people as we've pretty much spoken in poll after poll that we are opposed to military action in Syria. Putin is manipulating the Obama Administration and attempting to further drive a wedge between he and the American people. Why? Because Russia has a substantial stake in one of their only naval bases along the Mediterranean with plans to augment their maritime force by $120 billion for 51 more ships by 2020 and a lucrative arms export to Syria. They lost billions when Gaddafi was overthrown and they have no desire to watch Assad go down with many billions more in losses. This is it, well... and a little reeling from their fall as a superpower having lost the cold war, and subsequently -- their "exceptionalism".

Quote
Why in the world is Obama more or less sitting back and continuing to act like the American public is a just a mass of unwashed, uneducated pigs?
Because they voted for him with the help of the largest mouthpieces in the country, twice. We knew about Benghazi, but we let the relative lack of coverage on the scandal woo us into believing it was a small matter. We ignored that it happened on 9/11 to buy the media's sale of Hillary's narrative that this whole thing was driven by some schlep who produced a 15-minute hate piece on Islam leaving him the only one imprisoned from this affair. We'll likely be voting for Hillary Clinton in 2016 as punishment for her folly. After all, it must've been another one of those vast right-wing conspiracies not unlike the fact that our Commander in Chief was boning an intern with a cigar in the oval office. We laughed at Romney for what he had to say about Russia and her alliances with Syria, Iran, and China, and their mutual beneficiaries while the proctor of the debate did everything in her power to help Obama in her line of questioning. We ignored Obama's comment to Medvedev regarding greater "flexibility" for essentially acting against the will of the American people after the election. We ignored the actions of the NSA, the EPA, and the IRS to the point where those are now ancient history. This is a confused American public that claims it wants the government to do more for them while opposing tax increases. It says it loves teachers more than its own children by unwittingly bolstering a Unionized system that has us spending more per student than any 5 OECD countries combined yet ranks 16th among them in math and science. We need our news spoon-fed to us with a teaspoon of satiric sugar as only Comedy Central can serve up and we distract ourselves with gadgets and gaming, taking selfies for FB, and giving the world play-by-plays on every mundane detail of our lives via Twitter. Unwashed, uneducated pigs? I might not necessarily put it that way, but...

Quote
I don't know enough about Putin to pass judgment on him one way or the other. If he really is just a madman, that makes it even more sad that he's the one reaching out to the population of the United States on a global issue that we, as American citizens, care a lot about.
We should know more than enough about Putin to pass judgment, but IMO you're right in your distaste for the Obama Administration's contribution to this mess. And yes, it is definitely sad that Putin is allowed to air his call for peace under the guise of what is clearly, nothing more than geopolitical strategizing at the expense of our President's incoherent foreign policy and foot-in-mouth disorder. Unless we're supposed to believe of course that Obama's son would look like an Al Qaeda operative.
 
OldManMac Sep 19, 2013 12:08 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by aristotles (Post 4247794)
Do you have any understanding of how christianity works?
Having once been a Sunday school teacher and church youth group leader, I do.

Quote
How do any of us know what is in Putin's heart?
By his actions over a number of years, which speak louder than words.

Quote
If you are a christian and you are judging people you don't know based on their past sins then you would be considered a "hypocrite".
I'll get back to you when I'm concerned with what you think of me. I would recommend you not hold your breath waiting.

Quote
He who has no sin cast the first stone.
As humans, we judge each other constantly. We have to, as we make decisions which could affect our survival and well being.

Quote
Maybe he is a changed man?
I don't care if he is; I see him as an evil man, who has an unquenchable thirst for power. He has no morals or ethics, IMO.

Quote
Are you the same person as you were on the playground in school? Are the the same person that you were in high school? Are you the same man that you were in your youth? Are you perhaps cherry picking?
No, I'm not. I've stopped believing in fairy tales.

Quote
Shouldn't we be concerned more with the recent inconsistency between what Obama said during both of his presidential campaigns and his actions while in office?
I am, very much, but that's not what this thread was about. FTR, I'm deeply disappointed in the Obama who got elected, as he isn't the same one as before the election.

Quote
Even if we assume that Putin has not changed and is acting out of a hidden agenda, what does that say about the American president if a former KGB office is calling for peace and the man who campaigned on a "peace" platform for his first term is secretly arming the rebels?
The former KGB officer definitely has a hidden agenda, and that is to do whatever is necessary for him to remain in power.

Quote
Let me try to explain something to you. Christianity is about forgiveness and reconciliation with god and that forgiveness is a gift that cannot be earned by acts of kindness. It can only be received as a gift of grace by a repentant heart of someone who has surrendered themselves to god. Everyone including Putin is eligible for that gift from god.
I've had that explained to me innumerable times, and I quit buying it long ago. The facts are that we don't know the ultimate answer, and we are by nature a progressive animal, searching for that answer, and we won't find it in a book written by people who believed in ghosts and magic.
 
ebuddy Sep 19, 2013 07:07 AM
Quote, Originally Posted by OldManMac (Post 4248490)
No, I'm not. I've stopped believing in fairy tales.

FTR, I'm deeply disappointed in the Obama who got elected, as he isn't the same one as before the election.
Congrats on trying to ditch all those fairy tales, but... you missed a spot.
 
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