[The Final Dakar]

Did we have a quota of disrespect to fill for the 21st century?

[OAW]

Why? The usual reason ....



OAW

[andi*pandi]

I read that when a landowner called the tribes to let them know of a burial site, the construction company raced over and bulldozed it.

It sounds like the plot of a TV show, but no, they really are getting away with such things.

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Did we have a quota of disrespect to fill for the 21st century?

Last time I checked, we knock over entire countries because oil.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Did we have a quota of disrespect to fill for the 21st century?

Americans did it for land, gold and game initially. Are you surprised they would now do it for oil?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

Last time I checked, we knock over entire countries because oil.

Last time I checked, we didn't admit we ****ed up in mideast and were trying to make amends for the past 100 years.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Americans did it for land, gold and game initially. Are you surprised they would now do it for oil?

Its definitely not the why, its the who.

Then again, I read the land had been confiscated by the government in the 50s. I do love the detail that the pipeline was rerouted to its current place to avoid the chance it might pollute the water in a city in ND.


...but I'm sure its environmentally sound.

[The Final Dakar]

Judge rules construction can continue. Better luck next time, native Americans.

[Chongo]

I10 sat uncompleted for decades. The gap was here in AZ. It was from ≈20th St and Buckeye road to Buckeye and Dysart Road. After years of wrangling the route to complete I10 was settle on and construction began, and stopped,and began,and stopped...... Construction crews kept unearthing Hohokam ruins. They had to stop and allow archeologists to excavate the sites. It added years to the project. I don't remeber if there were suit to stop construction once they found the first ruins. What's odd is that theses ruins were not found when the home that were built there in the years prior to the interstate/freeway construction. There were suits over the Loop 202 extension


We'll see if they turn up more Hohokam ruins on the western segment of the route.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Judge rules construction can continue. Better luck next time, native Americans.

It ain't over till it's over ...

In the meantime, construction is grinding to a halt: On Friday, September 9, a federal judge denied an request by the Standing Rock Sioux to put a freeze on construction. But an hour later, the Department of Justice surprised everyone by stepping in and ordering the Army Corps of Engineers to hit pause until it could revisit the controversial portion near the reservation. Further protests are expected in the coming days and months, and politicians like Bernie Sanders are joining the fray.

The fight over the Dakota Access Pipeline, explained - Vox

OAW

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Last time I checked, we didn't admit we ****ed up in mideast and were trying to make amends for the past 100 years.

Sure we are.



See?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by OAW 

It ain't over till it's over ...



The fight over the Dakota Access Pipeline, explained - Vox

OAW

Thanks, Obama

[The Final Dakar]

Anyone want compare/contrast how these protesters are being treated versus the Buddy thing from earlier this year?

[OAW]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Anyone want compare/contrast how these protesters are being treated versus the Buddy thing from earlier this year?

I presume autocorrect got you and meant Bundy? If so the difference is obvious. Race. Class. Corporate Interests. They all combine to create the stark differences in treatment that we are witnessing.

OAW

[The Final Dakar]

Yes, Bundy but I'm referring to tactics used. Like spraying people with a water hose in near freezing weather.

[Chongo]

I saw this posted on FB, thoughts?
SHERIFF DROPS TRUTH BOMB THE DAKOTA ACCESS PIPELINE PROTESTERS DON’T WANT YOU TO READ
from his FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/sheriff.gre...37399006279642

Based upon sensational news reports, I had the wrong impression that this pipeline was to run directly through the Standing Rock Reservation and would disturb ancient burial grounds of the Sioux Tribes.
The argument has evolved now that this pipeline will jeopardize the water supply of the Missouri River (despite the fact that the pipeline will pass under other rivers including the Mississippi throughout its entire route). Also, the Cannonball River which runs throughout the Standing Rock Reservation is actually “upstream” from the pipeline crossing. This false narrative has understandably generated a great deal of sympathy and support from many quarters for the Standing Rock Sioux People.
I quickly learned and saw for myself that this was untrue. The pipeline passes about two miles north of the reservation and that years of archeological study uncovered no significant native historical sites. It is difficult to believe that a single modern pipeline would be more environmentally risky than transporting crude oil by rail or truck through the same territory.

[The Final Dakar]

Don't get your news from facebook

[subego]

I do like the contrast between OMFG HOLY SHIT 10 THINGS THE LIBTARDS HIDE THAT WILL BLOW YOUR EFFIN MIND, and a post which is presented in such a calm and rational manner.

This is independent of the accuracy, for which I am too ignorant to comment. Triage put this shitshow in the waiting room.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Tribes to white Leftist blowhards: "GTFO, we don't want you here!" Brilliant.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Don't get your news from facebook

Well, the county sheriff did say it, and did cite his sources. In the parlance of the press, that's what they call "news". One wonders why CNN, et al. haven't picked up the scoop... but then you realize it doesn't fit the Narrative. They have $millions$ invested in this display of outrage, it would be a shame to let it go to waste. Right?

6% MSM trust, and falling...

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

6% MSM trust, and falling...

Still repeating unsourced claims that have already been debunked with evidence. Why am I not surprised?

OAW

[el chupacabra]

… .

[The Final Dakar]

Army Corps has suspended construction.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

This is the same money making strategy natives use when highways are built through their lands, or when trucks hauling oil, drive on those highways.

The oil pipeline is also “just a money making strategy”, so if you want to build something on my land, I have the right to either reject it or ask for some form of compensation. There is nothing nefarious about it.

[el chupacabra]

… .

[Waragainstsleep]

I heard Obama just killed the pipeline.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

I didnt mean to imply there was. Just that I dont think it's about burial ancient grounds. Money speaks louder than all of that, and the natives have a history of making windfall profits off of stuff like this.

I think they also have legitimate concerns about the safety of the pipeline and the cleanliness of their drinking water. Those same concerns were also raised by when the initial plan was to have the pipeline cross the river to the north of the nearby town of Bismarck, so if oil contaminates the river, that won't affect their source of drinking water.

So even if the concerns are “just” about money and pollution, these are absolutely legitimate points for them to raise. And I think it is unjust to have made the decision about the precise route of the pipeline without involving the Native American tribes.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I heard Obama just killed the pipeline.

So brave.

[...deleted...]

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by And.reg 

No they don't.

1. Pipelines like this have tight regulations. It took a very major earthquake in Alaska just to cause one of the more recent major spills, affecting a minority, and that was 6 years ago. It's not like the government is going to overlook 300,000 miles of nationwide pipeline infrastructure. Plus they have to be retested and reexamined for safety on a regular basis, so the newer pipelines will be even more closely monitored than past (rusting) infrastructure.

Well, have a look at this VICE documentary on the subject. According to the documentary there are ~150 inspectors for 2.5 million miles of pipelines, and so relies to a large degree on self-regulation by the companies. In view of that, I think environmental concerns are absolutely well-founded. The Department of Transportation recorded 73 pipeline spills in 2014, a significant increase over the previous years. Keep in mind that most of the spills have been self-reported by the companies.

Originally Posted by And.reg 

2. To protest just because people are "afraid of water contamination" is ridiculous and shows glaring distrust toward tired-and-tested regulation. So, I do not support the protestors.

You do not need to share the protestors' opinion on the matter, but in view of the number of spills, this isn't just about blind distrust towards the US state. Water usage rights are quite likely part and parcel of the contracts which give the land to the tribe, and therefore, the US government may not have a choice but to come to an amicable agreement with the tribes on that matter.

[The Final Dakar]

If water contamination isn't a concern then the first plan should be approved and the Native American land avoided. Win-win.

[The Final Dakar]

Things are starting to get movie weird over there.
Forgiveness Ceremony Unites Veterans And Natives At Standing Rock Casino | The Huffington Post

On Monday, Native Americans conducted a forgiveness ceremony with U.S. veterans at the Standing Rock casino, giving the veterans an opportunity to atone for military actions conducted against Natives throughout history.

In celebration of Standing Rock protesters’ victory Sunday in halting construction on the Dakota Access Pipeline, Leonard Crow Dog formally forgave Wes Clark Jr., the son of retired U.S. Army general and former supreme commander at NATO, Wesley Clark Sr.

I haven't been following closely, so I'm not sure why a group of veterans suddenly took up the cause.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

I haven't been following closely, so I'm not sure why a group of veterans suddenly took up the cause.

I believe they said it was because they swore an oath to protect their country against enemies both foreign and domestic. Blowing peoples arms off in the name of corporate greed apparently qualified in their book.

[Chongo]

Just so it's clear, this is no longer about desecrating sacred burial grounds and now about protecting the ground water?

[The Final Dakar]

It can be both. Just to see how many ways the company is willing to **** over the native Americans.

[andi*pandi]

They, authorities I presume, are blocking deliveries from being made.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

They, authorities I presume, are blocking deliveries from being made.

They did that in the stand-off with Oregon too, right?

[Waragainstsleep]

Eventually. Not before a friend of mine sent them a bag of dicks.

[andi*pandi]

Whereas the socks I sent are being waylaid, according to UPS, "due to weather." And I'm assuming the PO box they were being sent to is not actually in the camp, so UPS is being prevented from delivering to the post office now.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

RE. The "forgiveness ceremony".

I'm still trying to figure out what's "progressive" about blaming the current generation for the sins of their ancestors. To me that sounds more like Old Testament-style bullshit.

[Laminar]

They just want to Make the Bible Great Again, like how it was in the Old Testament when only the Jews were saved and they didn't have all of those other stupid races also getting salvation.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

RE. The "forgiveness ceremony".

I'm still trying to figure out what's "progressive" about blaming the current generation for the sins of their ancestors. To me that sounds more like Old Testament-style bullshit.

Why do you care so much about that? This ceremony is like praying, I may find that praying is akin to me talking to my toaster, but if it helps you, why should I care whether you do it or not?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

They just want to Make the Bible Great Again, like how it was in the Old Testament when only the Jews were saved and they didn't have all of those other stupid races also getting salvation.

yawn

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Why do you care so much about that? This ceremony is like praying, I may find that praying is akin to me talking to my toaster, but if it helps you, why should I care whether you do it or not?

Why do the descendents of oppressors need redemption? Shouldn't we be "progressing" beyond that? I wish atheists were at least consistent with their ire over religion and perceived superstition.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Why do the descendents of oppressors need redemption?

Because they apparently feel that they want to do this, and as nobody is getting hurt in the process I don't see any reason to raise a fuzz about it.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Shouldn't we be "progressing" beyond that? I wish atheists were at least consistent with their ire over religion and perceived superstition.

I think you profoundly misunderstand atheism, and how atheists relate to religious people. I don't aim to impose my atheism onto others, and I don't appreciate it when people do. Ditto for religion, as long as you don't force it upon me or harm others in the process, be it through laws or other means, I don't see why it should be any of my business.

If other people want to practice rituals that bring people together with no harm to anyone, why should I even care? Just because I might not do it doesn't mean I feel an inclination to tell other people that they shouldn't either. Why do you care?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Because they apparently feel that they want to do this, and as nobody is getting hurt in the process I don't see any reason to raise a fuzz about it.

I'm not raising a "fuzz", why are you being defensive about someone questioning what amounts to a form of aboriginal Calvinism?

I think you profoundly misunderstand atheism, and how atheists relate to religious people.

If it had been a Christian rite, atheists would have been all up in their wigwams. At least be intellectually honest there.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

I'm not raising a "fuzz", why are you being defensive about someone questioning what amounts to a form of aboriginal Calvinism?

I'm not defensive at all, I'm consistent. (My consistency gives me a warm fussy feeling, too, so that's nice. ) In my view you raise a non-issue here, simply because you don't seem to be able to understand why veterans would go out to the reservation and join the protest. And why they would participate in this ritual.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

If it had been a Christian rite, atheists would have been all up in their wigwams. At least be intellectually honest there.

Nope, that wouldn't matter to me, you're just projecting your image of what you think atheists are and do onto me. They could hold a Catholic mess, a Jewish sermon or a Muslim prayer, and it wouldn't make a difference.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I'm not defensive at all, I'm consistent. (My consistency gives me a warm fussy feeling, too, so that's nice. ) In my view you raise a non-issue here, simply because you don't seem to be able to understand why veterans would go out to the reservation and join the protest. And why they would participate in this ritual.

They have misplaced guilt due to being lied to over how they somehow owe PoC due to what happened in a different era. Real "progress" is getting beyond that and coming to the realization that you can't reconcile a past that you never created.

Nope, that wouldn't matter to me, you're just projecting your image of what you think atheists are and do onto me. They could hold a Catholic mess, a Jewish sermon or a Muslim prayer, and it wouldn't make a difference.

When you can be honest with yourself about how modern atheism views various beliefs differently, we can get off to a much better start.

[Waragainstsleep]

How does a forgiveness ceremony equate to religion?

The vast, vast majority of atheists are completely passive when it comes to religion, live and let live. A lot of us really hate religion dictating laws etc, especially when we disagree with either the law itself or the 'reasoning' behind it.
Personally while I believe everyone should be free to believe and practice whatever nonsense they like (within reason), I deeply wish they'd see sense and give it all up. Even if all groups switched to a more progressive stance, stopped being intolerant and restrictive etc, there is always the likelihood that the less tolerant versions will cycle back around. Humanity has no need for the fairy stories any more, its time we grew up and stopped letting them dictate anyone's life.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Nope, that wouldn't matter to me, you're just projecting your image of what you think atheists are and do onto me. They could hold a Catholic mess, a Jewish sermon or a Muslim prayer, and it wouldn't make a difference.

Now he's telling you what you believe, too! We should start a club!

[The Final Dakar]

For those of us who don't take things literally, I suspect the forgiveness ceremony was a symbolic gesture of how far thee veterans are willing to go to stand up for the native Americans. I hope they live up to it.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by And.reg 

No they don't.

1. Pipelines like this have tight regulations. It took a very major earthquake in Alaska just to cause one of the more recent major spills, affecting a minority, and that was 6 years ago. It's not like the government is going to overlook 300,000 miles of nationwide pipeline infrastructure. Plus they have to be retested and reexamined for safety on a regular basis, so the newer pipelines will be even more closely monitored than past (rusting) infrastructure. To add to the regulation, North Dakota weather is some of the toughest in the nation (besides Alaska). Temperatures go as high as 90F, and wind chills drop to -80F. Engineers know what they're getting into, so I have full trust that the new added infrastructure will be safe.
2. To protest just because people are "afraid of water contamination" is ridiculous and shows glaring distrust toward tired-and-tested regulation. So, I do not support the protestors.
3. It's not like the IPs are being forced out of their homes, so protesting for their culture makes no sense to me and I do not support their argument.
4. As for preservation, that's what museums are for. When I visited NYC in 2000, they had this beautiful ivory cross in a glass case. The cross dated back to (I think, circa) 1400 AD, in shiny white, as if it was new, and there are only three of them in the world. Anything that gets dug up and discovered can be relocated. Or one can make the case to continue with pipelines in a direction a few miles away (apparently that happened here). Nations have been digging up other cultures for millennia.

As it stands, I still see no credible, logical reason for the protests. If you do, then inform me (politely, without the heat).

Irony.
Pipeline spills 176,000 gallons of crude into creek about 150 miles from Dakota Access protest camp