[Orion27]

...There are other emerging fissures, as well. The aggressively photogenic John Edwards was cruising along, detailing his litany of liberal causes last week until, during question time, he invoked the "I" word — Israel. Perhaps the greatest short-term threat to world peace, Edwards remarked, was the possibility that Israel would bomb Iran's nuclear facilities. As a chill descended on the gathering, the Edwards event was brought to a polite close.

Edwards southern roots emerging: Anti Catholic bigotry and anti-semitism.

[nonhuman]

Uh, what's anti-semitic about that?

[Mark Larr]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

.
Edwards southern roots emerging: Anti Catholic bigotry and anti-semitism.

Ummmm, you're ignorant, intolerant AND a tool.

[Moderator]

Oh you didn't get the memo... any criticism of Israel is now anti-semitic.

[medicineman]

Edwards was right. Israsel won't rest until they've converted the rest of the world to Judiasm. It says that in the Torah, someplace, somewhere, in code, if you exchange some letters and follow the Rose Line. They are a land hungry nation intent on pushing the non-believers into the Caspian sea. They raise their children on explosive materials that they might detonate at the correct age at the entrances to mosques. They've come to the US under the guise of immigrants to construct secret cells. They've even conspired to get one their own to run as a vice-president! Since they control all the world's currency they are to be feared.

You must have not gotten the memo.

[sek929]

So you basically damn Edwards for being bigoted, then say he is a southern stereotype.

Makes sense to me

[Dakar²]

Honestly, without a link, who cares?

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by Moderator 

Oh you didn't get the memo... any criticism of Israel is now anti-semitic.

Why is it always the Jews the first to be criticized as a threat to world peace?
I notice there were no disclaimers about the anti-catholic slurs on his website in this thread. It's alway's interesting to slide a flaming cocktail down the bar and watch the reaction.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

Why is it always the Jews the first to be criticized as a threat to world peace?
I notice there were no disclaimers about the anti-catholic slurs on his website in this thread. It's alway's interesting to slide a flaming cocktail down the bar and watch the reaction.

Israel != The Jews

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

Honestly, without a link, who cares?

Links for you

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/200...rld-peace.html
http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...egoryid=1&cs=1
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/a...ats_tripp.html

[Big Mac]

Now his campaign is doing damage control, saying that he actually said the biggest threat is Iran; yet, Variety stands by the original story.

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by sek929 

So you basically damn Edwards for being bigoted, then say he is a southern stereotype.

Makes sense to me

What would anyone from Massachusetts know about bigotry?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Moderator 

Oh you didn't get the memo... any criticism of Israel is now anti-semitic.

Criticism of specific Israeli policies may or may not be antisemitic. But denouncement of Israel in general (as Edwards supposedly did) is definitely antisemitic. Remember the words of one of the greatest Americans, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.:

“When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.”

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

What would anyone from Massachusetts know about bigotry?

...what?

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Criticism of specific Israeli policies may or may not be antisemitic. But denouncement of Israel in general (as Edwards supposedly did) is definitely antisemitic. Remember the words of one of the greatest Americans, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.:

“When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.”

I'm sorry, that's just not true. You could denounce Israel for a million reasons, none of which are anti-Semitic. Maybe you don't like the militant and blatantly unfair manner in which it was created. Maybe you don't like they way they've handled the Palestine issue. Maybe you don't like the institutionalized racism inherent in the very law of Israel. There are a lot of things to not like about Israel without having to not like Jews.

Not everyone who isn't completely cowed by the threat of being labeled an anti-Semite just for having reservations about a cause that's been taken up by some vocal Jews is an anti-Semite. Get over it.

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Now his campaign is doing damage control, saying that he actually said the biggest threat is Iran; yet, Variety stands by the original story.

I'd like a follow-up question. Mr Edwards, reports say Iran is actively seeking a nuclear weapon. The Christian Science Monitor reports that Terhan has abruptly resumed it's nuclear program this week. "We were in crisis management mode, offering dialogue," says a European diplomat close to the negotiations. "Now we have gone through every single red line. We have to move to another stage." As the you yourself have said, Iran is the biggest threat we face, would you categorically rule out a pre-emptive strike against Iranian nuclear facilities to prevent Iran from acquiring a nuclear weapon? And given the recent missle strikes into Israel during the Lebanese War, and the overt threat of wiping Israel off the map by Ahmednejad, wouldn't you be happy if Israel did the job for you?

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

...what?

What would anyone from Massachusetts know about bigotry?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Criticism of specific Israeli policies may or may not be antisemitic. But denouncement of Israel in general (as Edwards supposedly did) is definitely antisemitic.

According to the links, he criticized a specific policy … so how come you conclude his remarks were `definitely antisemitic' (on the basis of this single quote)?

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

I'm sorry, that's just not true. You could denounce Israel for a million reasons, none of which are anti-Semitic. Maybe you don't like the militant and blatantly unfair manner in which it was created. Maybe you don't like they way they've handled the Palestine issue. Maybe you don't like the institutionalized racism inherent in the very law of Israel. There are a lot of things to not like about Israel without having to not like Jews.

Not everyone who isn't completely cowed by the threat of being labeled an anti-Semite just for having reservations about a cause that's been taken up by some vocal Jews is an anti-Semite. Get over it.

Gee, they don't sound like very nice people. What can we do about them? The Jews I mean.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

...There are other emerging fissures, as well. The aggressively photogenic John Edwards was cruising along, detailing his litany of liberal causes last week until, during question time, he invoked the "I" word — Israel. Perhaps the greatest short-term threat to world peace, Edwards remarked, was the possibility that Israel would bomb Iran's nuclear facilities. As a chill descended on the gathering, the Edwards event was brought to a polite close.

Edwards southern roots emerging: Anti Catholic bigotry and anti-semitism.

More vague generalizations. I'm kind of curious; how old are you?

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by KarlG 

More vague generalizations. I'm kind of curious; how old are you?

I'm sure you don't want another history lesson. You fell asleep during the last one.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Moderator 

Oh you didn't get the memo... any criticism of Israel is now anti-semitic.

Indeed. But given the way his statement is described in the OP (where is the link BTW?), I don't even see this as a criticism of Israel at all. He's asked what's the greatest threat to world peace? He says in the short-term, if Israel decided to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities. And the million dollar question is .... how is that inaccurate? Let alone being a criticism or an attack on Israel? Clearly the Iranians would retaliate against such a move. And on top of that it would seriously inflame the already highly volatile Muslim world. You could easily see a regional war breaking out in the Middle East if this were to happen.

Anyway, the man does not seem to be saying that Israel is the "bad guy". All he said was that "the possibility that Israel would bomb Iran's nuclear facilities" was the greatest short-term threat to world peace. Anyone that follows the events in the region with an ounce of intellectual honesty would have to concede that such an action (which is not out of the realm of possibility since Israel is reported to be planning to do just that, and it's not as if they haven't taken similar action before. Furthermore, most nuclear proliferation experts say that Iran is several years away away from developing a nuclear bomb .... so the whole "wipe Israel off the map" hysteria is more hype than actual threat.

But hey, this is the good ole US of A ... and anything that is a knock against Israel in the slightest ...... real or simply perceived .... is denounced as "anti-Semitism".

OAW

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

What would anyone from Massachusetts know about bigotry?

Umm, so yeah...MORE bigoted comments from you.

By all means, take my shovel for that hole yer diggin'

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Umm, so yeah...MORE bigoted comments from you.

By all means, take my shovel for that hole yer diggin'

True!

[sek929]

n/m

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by sek929 

At least I have the nutsack to actually say where I'm from, so people like you can make snap judgements about my character.

Actually my last post to you was viceral reaction to my my own prejudices and I actually agreed with you. Being from Manhattan, and have worked out of New Bedford, Boston, Gloucester, Falmouth,Biddeford and Portland I know a little about the lay of the land. Having lived in the deep south for 20 years, Charleston, and the gullah islands, Atlanta and
middle Georgia I'll answer the question you couldn't. People from Massachsetts know way more about bigotry than the rest of us. True!

[probablecause]

I think there is a cultural issue at play here. Many Jews are indoctrinated from a very early age to associate the state of Israel with their spirituality. It's in prayers, hymns and sermons to love Israel and to be spiritually and emotionally connected to it. Traveling to Israel and supporting it financially (with bonds, making donations etc) are all expected.

However, I think many Jews, and perhaps Orion27, now fail to separate that emotional and spiritual connection from the political Israeli state as it exists in the physical world. That's why I believe many Jews feel personally insulted when Israel is criticized--to them its like you are criticizing their religion. However, I think its up to the individual to figure out if someone is criticizing a policy or criticizing a race. The automatic link between criticizing Israel and bigotry(which this thread seems to have started out doing) is wrong and is causing censorship in open discussions.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

According to the links, he criticized a specific policy … so how come you conclude his remarks were `definitely antisemitic' (on the basis of this single quote)?

Saying that Israel is the biggest threat to the world is antisemitic. Israel is facing an existential threat posed by Iran and must do what is necessary to secure the well-being of its citizens. Edwards is making the same mistake as the international community when it condemned Israel's strike on Osirak. Most pundits today praise Israel for it, yet demagogues like Edwards criticize Israel when it's facing essentially the same threat from Iran. Hypocrisy and Jew-hatred, that's what it is.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by probablecause 

However, I think its up to the individual to figure out if someone is criticizing a policy or criticizing a race.

True enough (although Jewish is not a race). Take a look at my previous posts - I have satisfied that requirement.

[macintologist]

What's with conservatives obsession with Israel and anything anti-Israel is therefore somehow unPatriotic or anti-American?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

What's with conservatives obsession with Israel and anything anti-Israel is therefore somehow unPatriotic or anti-American?

I'll respond to that question with a Jewish perspective and based on the assumption you were asking a serious question. I don't think any conservatives claim that being pro-Israel makes one patriotic or pro-American, or the converse. Conservatives have an affinity for Israel. From a political standpoint, conservative Christians see Israel as a great ally of America, the only true ally of America in the Middle East and the only country in the region with a liberal democratic tradition similar to America's.

From a religious standpoint, many conservatives (often referred to as evangelicals) view the Jewish people as God's chosen people and that it is their duty to be supportive of Jews and the Jewish state. Other conservatives (often referred to as fundamentalists) believe in supporting Israel as a condition for the return of the Christian deity.

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by probablecause 

I think there is a cultural issue at play here. Many Jews are indoctrinated from a very early age to associate the state of Israel with their spirituality. It's in prayers, hymns and sermons to love Israel and to be spiritually and emotionally connected to it. Traveling to Israel and supporting it financially (with bonds, making donations etc) are all expected.

However, I think many Jews, and perhaps Orion27, now fail to separate that emotional and spiritual connection from the political Israeli state as it exists in the physical world. That's why I believe many Jews feel personally insulted when Israel is criticized--to them its like you are criticizing their religion. However, I think its up to the individual to figure out if someone is criticizing a policy or criticizing a race. The automatic link between criticizing Israel and bigotry(which this thread seems to have started out doing) is wrong and is causing censorship in open discussions.

I know the difference between Zionism and anti-semitism. I have no illusions when it come to the democrats. Hillary and Arafat. Bill Clnton and Arafat, Carter and Arafat. The biggest terrorist enablers, all. When the democrats attack Israel they are attacking the Jews. And this year's DNC Winter Meetings were opened by an invocation delivered by an Imam of the Karbala Islamic Education Center and advisor to the leader of the Iran-backed Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution, Shi'ite Husham Al-Husainy. Sweeet!

And now the new enabler Joe Kennedy and Chavez, Iran's biggest cheerleader. How about another follow up question for John Edwards. Mr Edwards, recently you were accused of saying Israel was the biggest threat to world peace. You have denied it and now say Iran is the biggest threat to world peace. It is well know that Caesar Chavez has recently received a shipment of 100,000 AK 47's and is actively seeking to seal a deal to procure 3 more submarines from Russia. Given that Iran and Venezuela are close allies, how do reconcile the fact prominent members of the democrat party are taking oil money from
Chavez?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Saying that Israel is the biggest threat to the world is antisemitic. Israel is facing an existential threat posed by Iran and must do what is necessary to secure the well-being of its citizens. Edwards is making the same mistake as the international community when it condemned Israel's strike on Osirak. Most pundits today praise Israel for it, yet demagogues like Edwards criticize Israel when it's facing essentially the same threat from Iran. Hypocrisy and Jew-hatred, that's what it is.

No, that's not what he said. According to the links provided here, he said:

Perhaps the greatest short-term threat to world peace, Edwards remarked, was the possibility that Israel would bomb Iran's nuclear facilities.

Thus he says that an attack of Iran's nuclear would have severe consequences. He does not say that Israel's existence is the biggest threat to world peace. That's a rather substantial difference. Now, you may feel free to disagree on his opinion, sure, but to call it antisemitic is a stretch. Remember that the current US government is against a military strike and for diplomacy and Israel's proposed strike is against current US foreign policy. They're just being more polite about it and sugar-coat the same message.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

I'm sure you don't want another history lesson. You fell asleep during the last one.

I'm not the one who made all the vague generalizations about wars and countries that had nothing to do with Iraq. You seem to be well known around here for your vague generalizations. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid, junior.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

I know the difference between Zionism and anti-semitism. I have no illusions when it come to the democrats. Hillary and Arafat. Bill Clnton and Arafat, Carter and Arafat. The biggest terrorist enablers, all. When the democrats attack Israel they are attacking the Jews. And this year's DNC Winter Meetings were opened by an invocation delivered by an Imam of the Karbala Islamic Education Center and advisor to the leader of the Iran-backed Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution, Shi'ite Husham Al-Husainy. Sweeet!

And now the new enabler Joe Kennedy and Chavez, Iran's biggest cheerleader. How about another follow up question for John Edwards. Mr Edwards, recently you were accused of saying Israel was the biggest threat to world peace. You have denied it and now say Iran is the biggest threat to world peace. It is well know that Caesar Chavez has recently received a shipment of 100,000 AK 47's and is actively seeking to seal a deal to procure 3 more submarines from Russia. Given that Iran and Venezuela are close allies, how do reconcile the fact prominent members of the democrat party are taking oil money from
Chavez?

One minute you're rambling about Israel, and then you're blathering on about Casear Chavez. This reminds me of a "discussion" we had on another thread. Is it possible for you to stay on a subject, or do you always blather on endlessly about things that have nothing to do with the subject at hand?

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by KarlG 

One minute you're rambling about Israel, and then you're blathering on about Casear Chavez. This reminds me of a "discussion" we had on another thread. Is it possible for you to stay on a subject, or do you always blather on endlessly about things that have nothing to do with the subject at hand?

Why not join the discussion Karl and dispense with the personal attacks. You haven't contributed a damn thing in half a dozen posts over several threads.

KarG Last 6 threads

Edwards: Biggest Threat israel 191 Views / 35 Replies
One minute you're rambling about Israel, and then you're blathering on about Casear Chavez. This reminds me of a "discussion" we had on another thread. Is it possible for you to stay on a subject, or...
Posted by KarlG, on Today at 07:26 PM, in Political/War Lounge



Edwards: Biggest Threat israel 191 Views / 35 Replies
I'm not the one who made all the vague generalizations about wars and countries that had nothing to do with Iraq. You seem to be well known around here for your vague generalizations. Keep drinking...
Posted by KarlG, on Today at 07:22 PM, in Political/War Lounge



Edwards: Biggest Threat israel 191 Views / 35 Replies
More vague generalizations. I'm kind of curious; how old are you?
Posted by KarlG, on Today at 03:29 PM, in Political/War Lounge



Poor Britney: Checks Out of Rehab Again 179 Views / 14 Replies
It's a good thing there's nothing else more important going on in the world.
Posted by KarlG, on Today at 01:02 PM, in MacNN Lounge



Run Chicken Ruuuuuun! 498 Views / 61 Replies
I distinctly remember one of his promises in the 2000 election was to shrink the government's size. I'll work on finding that.

I'm well aware that he's no conservative.

There is, unfortunately, a...
Posted by KarlG, on Today at 09:21 AM, in Political/War Lounge



Run Chicken Ruuuuuun! 498 Views / 61 Replies
One article, by someone who appears to have been duped, does not make the case. I'm constantly amazed at how some people are so easy to fool. Of course, Bush has been telling people, and some people...

[OldManMac]

Nice try, taking those out of context, but it doesn't wash, and it doesn't surprise me. Have a nice evening.

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by KarlG 

Nice try, taking those out of context, but it doesn't wash, and it doesn't surprise me. Have a nice evening.

Nighty Night KarlG

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by KarlG 

Nice try, taking those out of context, but it doesn't wash, and it doesn't surprise me. Have a nice evening.

Nothing's out of context.


Why don't you just show him up and post something substantial?

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

Nothing's out of context.
Why don't you just show him up and post something substantial?

Do your homework and go back and read KarG/s threads.
When KarlG posts something constructive I'll respond if it's
warranted

[deedar]

Interesting that this happened amonth ago and is only now being reported...

Again, why is claiming that the biggest threat to world peace would be Israel bombing nuclear reactor in Iran anti-semetic?????

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by deedar 

Interesting that this happened amonth ago and is only now being reported...

Again, why is claiming that the biggest threat to world peace would be Israel bombing nuclear reactor in Iran anti-semetic?????

Because Edwards assigns the threat to Israel, by implication the Jews. it did not address the cause, Iran ignoring the international community which demand they not pursue the developement or acquisiton of the nuclear weapon. That is the threat, not the elimination of the threat.

Edwards and the democrats should identify and point out the real threat, Muslim extremeism and non-compliance with international law.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

Because Edwards assigns the threat to Israel, by implication the Jews.

NO!

No good comes of equating Israel with The Jews. No good whatsoever. All you're doing is damaging the credibility of Jews everywhere by conflating them with the Israeli government. It is possible to be Jewish and not Israeli. It is possible to be Jewish and not agree with Israel's policies. 'Jewish' is not a nationality it is not the same thing as Israeli. No one is implicating the Jews in anything here except you.

Stop looking for anti-Semitism where there is none. Just because one is a Jew does not mean one is a victim, which is exactly what you're trying to paint Jews as by insisting that criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. We're not all victims!

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

NO!

No good comes of equating Israel with The Jews. No good whatsoever. All you're doing is damaging the credibility of Jews everywhere by conflating them with the Israeli government. It is possible to be Jewish and not Israeli. It is possible to be Jewish and not agree with Israel's policies. 'Jewish' is not a nationality it is not the same thing as Israeli. No one is implicating the Jews in anything here except you.

Stop looking for anti-Semitism where there is none. Just because one is a Jew does not mean one is a victim, which is exactly what you're trying to paint Jews as by insisting that criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. We're not all victims!

I'm not conflating the Jews with Israel, perception is reality. While you may appreciate the subtleties, the perception is it's a Jewish problem. Why not put the blame where it belongs? Afraid of getting your throat slit? So, in order to be credible and a good Jew, one has to sign his own death warrant? I'm begiining to understand why so many American Jews are Democrat.
Because in the face of anti-semitism one must appear credible by giving lip service to the appeasers.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

I'm not conflating the Jews with Israel, perception is reality. While you may appreciate the subtleties, the perception is it's a Jewish problem.

No, it isn't the generally accepted perception. It might be yours or that of a few others, but you shouldn't jump to this conclusion.

Also, it perpetuates another myth, namely that of the `anti-semitic Jew'.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Also, it perpetuates another myth, namely that of the `anti-semitic Jew'.

You haven't heard of self-hating Jews? If only they did not exist.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

You haven't heard of self-hating Jews? If only they did not exist.

Well, I've heard of people who claim the world is full of 'em

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

No, it isn't the generally accepted perception. It might be yours or that of a few others, but you shouldn't jump to this conclusion.

Also, it perpetuates another myth, namely that of the `anti-semitic Jew'.

Doesn't the Israeli flag have the star of David on it ?
Are you telling me that the perception of Israel is not as a Jewish State?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

Doesn't the Israeli flag have the star of David on it ?
Are you telling me that the perception of Israel is not as a Jewish State?

Are you telling me that all Jews live in Israel or have Israeli citizenship? And that any action by the state of Israel has a religious quality to it? So I think it's rather you who equates Jew and Israeli.

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Are you telling me that all Jews live in Israel or have Israeli citizenship? And that any action by the state of Israel has a religious quality to it? So I think it's rather you who equates Jew and Israeli.

Israel, a jewish state, a liberal democracy, includes citizens of many ethnic and religious backgrounds.

So what's the problem? I don't have a problem with it. I have a problem with people who who first point to Israel ( and Jews ) as the source of evil in the world.