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Sky Captain · Jul 31, 2007, 08:36 AM

The court heard Mr Norton was playing cricket on an outdoor pitch with his 17-year-old son James when up to 15 youths gathered at the fence and began shouting abuse.

These little hellians KILLED this man out playing with his son.
Killed him.

Only in Americ...

Cipher13 · Jul 31, 2007, 08:37 AM

And they'll probably spend less time in jail than someone caught smoking pot.

Sky Captain · Jul 31, 2007, 08:48 AM

They'll probably all go free.
Citing the father should have just stayed home.

And he couldn't defend himself. He would have been imprisioned.
Probably even for shouting at them.

Dakarʒ · Jul 31, 2007, 08:53 AM

Mmmm... abject cynicism, part of a complete breakfast.

Doofy · Jul 31, 2007, 08:56 AM

ASBO*, I reckon.

Ciph - pot smokers don't get jail here. Jail is reserved for retired elderly ladies who've underpaid their community charge by a fiver.

(* go have a look at that wiki page. It's quite amusing as to just how stupid our law-givers are)

Sky Captain · Jul 31, 2007, 09:01 AM

A city is sueing gang members here in the US.
How stupid and ineffectual is that?

Dakarʒ · Jul 31, 2007, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

A city is sueing gang members here in the US.
How stupid and ineffectual is that?

It's pretty bad.

Doofy · Jul 31, 2007, 09:05 AM

What is it about our political systems which allows morons to rise to the top and make the rules?

Really? Where did we go wrong?

Dakarʒ · Jul 31, 2007, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Really? Where did we go wrong?

We made it profitable.

Sky Captain · Jul 31, 2007, 09:09 AM

When personal responsibility was replaced with entitlements.

osiris · Jul 31, 2007, 09:17 AM

What a tragic story.
What causes this kind of behavior? Are these people idiots? Societal misfits? Asses?
There's something wrong with the modern world, cause these incidents are on the rise in the most unsuspecting places.

Doofy · Jul 31, 2007, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by osiris

What causes this kind of behavior? Are these people idiots? Societal misfits? Asses?
There's something wrong with the modern world, cause these incidents are on the rise in the most unsuspecting places.

Why is the UK an unsuspecting place for an incident of this nature to occur? I expect this kind of behaviour here.

What's it down to? Libs being soft on law and order. Being soft on adult law and order filters down to the kids of the adult thugs who get let off for whatever they did.

Straight up, if you go shoplifting here you'll get a metaphorical slap on the wrist. If you underpay your community charge by a fiver you'll get prison. I'm not joking.

True story: Woman at home alone, middle of the night. Stalker/potential rapist messing around her garden and banging on her door. She calls the police. When they arrive, they give him a lift home with no charge and then come back to her house to question her for two hours about the knives she has in her kitchen. Knives in her kitchen, who would have thought it?

Point? The whole of the UK law system is now totally screwed up. Totally FUBAR.

ghporter · Jul 31, 2007, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

A city is sueing gang members here in the US.
How stupid and ineffectual is that?

Stupid sounding? Sure is. But it is NOT ineffectual. LAPD says that these suits have had a serious impact on gang activity, and other cities are likewise impressed. It's because gangs aren't just "bad kids with nothing to do but get into trouble," but rather big business. Drugs are getting less and less profitable, so some gangs are getting into other lines of "work," like bank fraud. I wish I were kidding.

What bothers me most about this whole "youth violence" issue is that "upstanding and good hearted people" blame violence in the media and games for it, when it's almost all due to bad parenting. And the parents aren't as much to blame as THEIR parents, who did a piss-poor job on them.

There's a huge divide in the U.S., it's cultural, and it's pervasive. It separates families with parents who actually try to parent from those with parents who just let the kids raise themselves without direction or supervision. The kids in either kind of family are likely to be anything but dumb. So what happens when someone who is clever, inventive and bored finds something to do without supervision? Often BAD things happen.

Doofy · Jul 31, 2007, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by ghporter

Stupid sounding? Sure is. But it is NOT ineffectual. LAPD says that these suits have had a serious impact on gang activity, and other cities are likewise impressed.

I'm not understanding this. Which legal entity are the cities filing suit against? Do they just file against the Bloods and a few months later a big cheque signed by the Bloods' CEO turns up in the mail?

osiris · Jul 31, 2007, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Why is the UK an unsuspecting place for an incident of this nature to occur? I expect this kind of behaviour here.

What's it down to? Libs being soft on law and order. Being soft on adult law and order filters down to the kids of the adult thugs who get let off for whatever they did.

Straight up, if you go shoplifting here you'll get a metaphorical slap on the wrist. If you underpay your community charge by a fiver you'll get prison. I'm not joking.

True story: Woman at home alone, middle of the night. Stalker/potential rapist messing around her garden and banging on her door. She calls the police. When they arrive, they give him a lift home with no charge and then come back to her house to question her for two hours about the knives she has in her kitchen. Knives in her kitchen, who would have thought it?

Point? The whole of the UK law system is now totally screwed up. Totally FUBAR.

It's not much better in the USA. I come from a large law enforcement family and have heard the stories too many times. I'm not saying that someone should get 10 years for stealing a loaf of bread, but for violent crimes I have zero tolerance.

nonhuman · Jul 31, 2007, 10:10 AM

Wow, two hours and no Clockwork Orange references...

Dakarʒ · Jul 31, 2007, 10:11 AM

Sorry, I was busy with the ol' in-out in-out.

osiris · Jul 31, 2007, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ

Sorry, I was busy with the ol' in-out in-out.

Get that warm feeling in your gutty works?

Dakarʒ · Jul 31, 2007, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by osiris

Get that warm feeling in your gutty works?

Righty-right.

Chuckit · 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

I'm not understanding this. Which legal entity are the cities filing suit against? Do they just file against the Bloods and a few months later a big cheque signed by the Bloods' CEO turns up in the mail?

From what I understand, they're going after known gang members. They're basically trying to get an injunction that stops gang members from gathering. That way, if the cops see the gang doing anything together, they have cause to act. All in all, I'd say it's one of the less ****witted ideas law enforcement has come up with. If it works, the gang will have to choose either to disband or be forcibly broken up.

Also, in the actual case here, I'm not sure it's accurate to say they murdered him. They harassed him and he dropped dead from stress because he had a weak heart. It's still incredibly dickish and sad, but it sounds like the kids just wanted to show that they were Tough Guys, not do any serious harm.

Doofy · Jul 31, 2007, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

From what I understand, they're going after known gang members. They're basically trying to get an injunction that stops gang members from gathering. That way, if the cops see the gang doing anything together, they have cause to act.

Right, so it's an ASBO then.

Won't work. Especially when the words "harassment" and "first amendment" start floating with the dollar signs in front of the Bloods' lawyer's eyes.

Doofy · Jul 31, 2007, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Also, in the actual case here, I'm not sure it's accurate to say they murdered him. They harassed him and he dropped dead from stress because he had a weak heart. It's still incredibly dickish and sad, but it sounds like the kids just wanted to show that they were Tough Guys, not do any serious harm.

That's why they're up on manslaughter charges, not murder.

Chuckit · Jul 31, 2007, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Right, so it's an ASBO then.

Won't work. Especially when the words "harassment" and "first amendment" start floating with the dollar signs in front of the Bloods' lawyer's eyes.

But that's the entire purpose of the court orders. The cops could already break up the gangs now, but of course it would get called out as harassment and all that. If there is a court order, there's no grounds for legal recourse (at least as far as I can see — IANAL and all that). You can't accuse the court of harassing you.

Doofy · Jul 31, 2007, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

But that's the entire purpose of the court orders. The cops could already break up the gangs now, but of course it would get called out as harassment and all that. If there is a court order, there's no grounds for legal recourse (at least as far as I can see — IANAL and all that). You can't accuse the court of harassing you.

I can see many, many problems with this. For example;

*) Prove that the bloke is a member of the gang.

*) Prove that the gang is actually a criminal organisation, not a social one.

Dakarʒ · Jul 31, 2007, 11:11 AM

Prove that the bloke is a member of the gang.

Given the amount of tats they do, that probably wouldn't be too hard.

Doofy · Jul 31, 2007, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ

Given the amount of tats they do, that probably wouldn't be too hard.

So, the cops arrest a couple of guys for hanging together in a gang. They both have "Bloods" tats.

Now prove that those tats aren't from bygone days and that they're not now hanging together as the "Ex Bloods for Justice" charitable/community group.

Dakarʒ · Jul 31, 2007, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

"Ex Bloods for Justice" charitable/community group.

If they can convince people that's what they're doing, they deserve to get off.

Chuckit · Jul 31, 2007, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

I can see many, many problems with this. For example;

*) Prove that the bloke is a member of the gang.

*) Prove that the gang is actually a criminal organisation, not a social one.

So you think they won't be able to get the court orders in the first place?

Graviton · Jul 31, 2007, 11:27 AM

10 and 13?

They must have some really useless parents.

Doofy · Jul 31, 2007, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

So you think they won't be able to get the court orders in the first place?

Dunno. It'd be a very long stretch around your bill of rights to get it, I reckon. Depends how straight your courts are, I guess.

lpkmckenna · Jul 31, 2007, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

I can see many, many problems with this. For example;

*) Prove that the bloke is a member of the gang.

*) Prove that the gang is actually a criminal organisation, not a social one.

You sound like a gang's defense attorney. Stop being unnecessarily negative and give this legal innovation a chance.

Rumor · Jul 31, 2007, 02:11 PM

he was hit on the head by a missile and suffered a heart attack.

A missle and all he got was a heart attack? Lucky guy.

Chuckit · Jul 31, 2007, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Dunno. It'd be a very long stretch around your bill of rights to get it, I reckon. Depends how straight your courts are, I guess.

From other cases I've seen, injunctions like this aren't really new ground. The novelty here is having the city use them to separate a large group of people.

Taliesin · Aug 1, 2007, 10:29 AM

British children kill a man with stones?

That must be another whitewashing done by BBC, it were probably muslim children who did that. Aren't palestinian children known for throwing stones at adults, there is a link.

Taliesin

Sky Captain · Aug 2, 2007, 08:48 PM

It's tanks they throw stones at.
Tanks.

macintologist · Aug 18, 2007, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

You sound like a gang's defense attorney. Stop being unnecessarily negative and give this legal innovation a chance.

This legal innovation just gives more power to the police and less to innocent bystanders who might be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

What we need to do is legalize drugs and deprive the gangs of their major source of income. No money, no game.

Chuckit · Aug 18, 2007, 12:47 PM

You reckon gangs exist because those people are so rich?

Doofy · Aug 19, 2007, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Taliesin

British children kill a man with stones?

That must be another whitewashing done by BBC, it were probably muslim children who did that. Aren't palestinian children known for throwing stones at adults, there is a link.

And there's me thinking that all the muzzer kids are off on terrorist training weekends in Pakistan.

vmarks · Aug 19, 2007, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Right, so it's an ASBO then.

Won't work. Especially when the words "harassment" and "first amendment" start floating with the dollar signs in front of the Bloods' lawyer's eyes.

Or "Freedom of Association" for that matter.

Sky Captain · Aug 19, 2007, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

You reckon gangs exist because those people are so rich?

No, gangs exist because their parents have failed in instilling values of respect in their children.
Nothing more.
100% the parents fault.

Bad behaviour know no economic bounds.

Monique · Aug 21, 2007, 05:58 PM

Useless children; if they had some parents or a place to go after school things like that would not happen.

What stupid reasons did those bullies give?

Sky Captain · Aug 21, 2007, 06:45 PM

They can go home and study their lessons!
But noooo. The want to hurt someone.

We have the same **** here in the states.
parents that won't raise their children.

Sky Captain · Aug 24, 2007, 08:05 AM

Yet more dangerous children.

Woman dies following park attack
A 20-year-old woman who was attacked by a gang of youths in a park in Lancashire, has died in hospital.
Sophie Lancaster and her 21-year-old boyfriend Robert Maltby were found with serious head injuries in the park in Bacup, Rossendale.

The attack happened in the early hours of Saturday 11 August at Stubby Lee Park.

Lancashire police have charged five teenage boys, aged between 15 and 17, with section 18 wounding.

There was a doozie in Wisconsin reported. 10 people stood around while a woman was raped and crying for help. People suck.

This is why my current wife carries a gun.
My first wife didn't. And she died because of it.

Kevin · Aug 24, 2007, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

What is it about our political systems which allows morons to rise to the top and make the rules?

Really? Where did we go wrong?

It was wrong from the start. Nothing has changed. We just suck.

Kevin · Aug 24, 2007, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ

Given the amount of tats they do, that probably wouldn't be too hard.

They remind me of the idiots with Legalize it! bumper stickers on their car.

JonoMarshall · Aug 24, 2007, 08:59 AM

I blame video games.

JonoMarshall · Aug 24, 2007, 09:00 AM

(and rap music)