[ambush]

Please take time to read what I have to say.

I've been very active lately (I'm now a registered member of the nationalist social-democrat party (even tho lately they've been leaning on the Right side, I think it's about to change), the Parti Qu�b�cois). I will be doing a lot of activism for the next elections, in which I will legally be able to vote. That's like 2 years from now anyway. I'm implicated in the "Jeunes" (Youth) section of the party but also at my school (in a group) where I (will) write articles in the newspaper and just inform people in general. Recently, I've done a lot of reasearch on Qu�bec Nationalism because I had to hand out a paper for my politics course. Anyway I can post the PDF for french speaking fellows.

For americans especially (I know a lot of you do jokes about us, but then again we joke about you too -- anyway I have no problems with 49% of the US and that's a lot (E.g. the states near Qu�bec (I even ecourage their touristic industry) VT, NY, MA, Maine, etc but also for the Euro people in here (and the rest of the World also), I will try to objectively describe the situation of Qu�bec in a short summary of our history.

It all begins when France comes here in America. France having trouble in Europe, never put a lot of energy in their colony. We basically lost the demographic battle against the English colonies -- France was busy with all kinds of wars in Europe anyway. So yeah, the English finally attacked us in a lame backstab (Les Plaines D'Abraham) fight. And well France finally agreed to give New-France (which would later because Qu�bec) to England. So England has power over a french colony in America. They try to assimilate us -- doesn't work because we have a different culture, history, language, etc..

The American revolutions happens, the British govt. buys the Qu�bec people and tell them not to participate to the american revolution. As a "gift", they give us more power, bigger territory, etc. So we don't help the americans, even tho they came in Montr�al I think. Anyway. So yeah...

Then the friggin' LOYALISTS (they loved England SO MUCH) come here because they don't want to be americans (that's OK... who am I to judge that anyway). And then, the British unites us (loyalist + french canadians) into Canada... Lower Canada and Upper Canada (lower=french canadians)... And of COURSE even tho we're a lot more than the loyalists, they have more power than us. So basically we sit there and let them govern us while we're numerically more than them. So to make a long story short, they try to assimilate us again (assimilation is a theme that's very popular in our history, as you can already see). We tried to reform the political system that disadvantaged us for no reason. Doesn't work, the Brits LAUGH at us and humiliate us. We try to rebel with help from fellow americans. No dice. Even if we had the will to put an end to this slavery, this utter political disgrace, we were totally massacred by Colborne's superior army. After a couple of battles won, they finally massacred us into our own churches. They hung those who were not killed in the battles and sent others in British colonies (namely Australia, where one of my ancestors was exiled.) Anyway.. since 1960 (the quit revolution), we do nothing but try to survive in our religion, in our past, our language, our culture. Then 1960 comes. The quiet revolution begins. The Qu�bec people wants to flourish.... real nationalism begins... we finally take back our electricity (Hydro-Qu�bec), etc, etc. A bourgeois Qu�b�cois class begins to appear (before, ONLY the english had the power and the money). To make a long story short, we went through 2 "referendums"... we lost the first 40% vs. 60% and the last one in 1995 (I was rougly 10) 49.7%.

Hard facts: We possess every attribute of a nation: our own Culture, religion (bah!), language, history and finally TERRITORY. We never, even historically, BELONGED to Canada. We're NOT like the rest of Canada.

The canadian/british government has enslaved us (but ALSO the natives) to serve their idiotic federalist ideology. They hated us, tried to assimilate us. No luck, we're still here and strong. We have been the victims of all sorts of hate, etc. E.g. they sent a LOT more french-canadians to "test" (they knew we had no chance) the beaches in Germany. ON ****ing PURPOSE. The list is ****ing long. We have been for a LONG time, the "white niggers (n�gres blancs)" (NO offense intended to my fellow african-americans) of Nort America.

In the 1995 referendum, the "non" camp (against independance) had 9x more money than the "oui" camp. DESPITE STRICT provincial laws, they found a way to bypass the law. They also frauded MILIONS in Patriotic ads. heck, it was funded by the government of Canada. Our own assimilation. What a ****ing disgrace. Last news is that former minister Gagliano was in the mafia. He was also involved in the patriotic frauds.

Misc. Notes: Technically, we're not part of the Canadian constitution. Qu�bec has NOT SIGNED THE CONSTITUTION (conf�d�ration act) OF CANADA.

Harvard study showed we are 100% able ECONOMICALLY to make our independance.

Canadian federalism is going DOWN, and even the other provinces agree on that.

What are your thoughts (americans who did their independance from the Brits, I'm interested to know what you think, no i'm no talking to you Kilbey.) on our situation.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by ambush:
(I'm now a registered member of the nationalist social-democrat party)

�
Okay, I just found out that my monitor's screen is invulnerable to a "Holy ****, I just spat out all my Mountain Dew" moment.


Continue on.

[ambush]

Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
�
Okay, I just found out that my monitor's screen is invulnerable to a "Holy ****, I just spat out all my Mountain Dew" moment.


Continue on.

I wanted you to comment on Qu�bec Nationalism. But anyway, I can't have such grand expectations with you. You're a living deception.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by ambush:
I wanted you to comment on Qu�bec Nationalism. But anyway, I can't have such grand expectations with you. You're a living deception.

See, these are the funny little comments that make me glad that I asked DH to let you back on.

Am I supposed to say any form of patriotism is bad? What do you want from me?

[ambush]

I wanted this thread to be a serious one as this issue is FAR from being resolved and is likely to grow in importance in the next year.

But thanks for just turning it into another thrash thread. You do it so well. So yeah, you deceive me but I'm getting used to it.

Now go back to trying to prove your HITLER IZ A LEFTIST thesis and leave us alone. Just because YOUR thread was locked by DH doesn't mean MINE has to be locked. Thank you for your cooperation.

THat being said (in the most polite manner), I hope your next comment will be something about Qu�bec Nationalism.

[MacGorilla]

Quebec can survive being independent but it will have to negotiate and sign all the treaties Canada has on it's own, NAFTA, etc. It wont be a free lunch.

As an observer I don't get why Quebec wants to be free; that already have many special laws and no one in Canada is mistreating them.

It seems the Quebec thing goes in cycles. Its probably time for another indepedence vote before things return to normal.

[ambush]

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Quebec can survive being independent but it will have to negotiate and sign all the treaties Canada has on it's own, NAFTA, etc. It wont be a free lunch.

As an observer I don't get why Quebec wants to be free; that already have many special laws and no one in Canada is mistreating them.

It seems the Quebec thing goes in cycles. Its probably time for another indepedence vote before things return to normal.

Considering we would have won the last vote w/o the frauds... it's very close to being the last try -- and it will surely make us independant. Next time we'll have the UN in here to verify there are no frauds happening. But then again, can we ever be certain? I think not. The federalists already shown how determined they are to make us stay in their sinking federalist ship. They recently passed the C-20 bill that gives them the right to decide if a vote is legal or not and what is the "majority". E.g. we win next referendum with 60%, they would still have to decide if it's legal. How does it even make sense?

Yes they are mistreatign us. Over many issues. Namely in Healthcare. Ask other provinces that aren't rich like Alberta. Ask them in what state is their healthcare. Over the issue of culture and language. Canada does not want to recognize, acknowledge our differences. YOu want a proof? We're not in the constituion. We did NOT sign it.

Our federalist system SUCKS. Historically we don,t belong here. We have all the attributes of a nation. What the **** are we waiting for. Heck, they should have just let us go in the first place.

[Wiskedjak]

Honestly, even if Quebec were to obtain a 100% "yes" vote for independence, I seriously doubt it would separate from Canada. Given all the money that Quebec receives from Canada, I seriously doubt that Quebec could survive, at it's current standard of living, without that income. Or, perhaps you're thinking about all that hydro-electric power Quebec exports to the US; hydro-electric power whose source sits on First-Nation lands and whose people will in all likelihood choose to remain part of Canada.

No. I think it's more likely that the separatists would try to use such a "yes" vote and the threat of separation as a bargaining tool rather than actually separate.

I also don't see a "yes" vote anytime in the near future. The majority of Quebec's population either lives in Quebec City or Montreal or are non-Francophone. These people stand nothing to gain through Quebec independence and much to lose. Look at the demographics of the last referendum; the majority of the people who voted "yes" were rural Francophones.

As a Canadian, I would hate to see Quebec separate from Canada, although I would respect it's right to do so should >59% of it's population decide to do so. Should Quebec decide to be independent, I would hope it understands what "independent" actually means.

[ambush]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Honestly, even if Quebec were to obtain a 100% "yes" vote for independence, I seriously doubt it would separate from Canada. Given all the money that Quebec receives from Canada

The problem is that we DON'T receive that much money from Canada. Anyway that money we receive is only the taxes we paid to the federal govt. coming back to us (they keep a part of it, unfortunately.)

I seriously doubt that Quebec could survive, at it's current standard of living, without that income. Or, perhaps you're thinking about all that hydro-electric power Quebec exports to the US; hydro-electric power whose source sits on First-Nation lands and whose people will in all likelihood choose to remain part of Canada.

It's been proven by many economists (you must have missed them studies -- but then again you probably read newspapers like the National Post.)that it's 100% feasible with the economy Qu�bec actually has. The first-nations have signed treaties, they will stay with us. But yes, the federal govt. likes to use that argument to scare people. I see it works well, too. If Qu�bec separates, it'll keep the same land. The First-Nations, first of all, would not be able to deal with the installations and the headquarters are down here in Montr�al.

No. I think it's more likely that the separatists would try to use such a "yes" vote and the threat of separation as a bargaining tool rather than actually separate.

Actually, no. I've been to conferences of the party and we're pretty f'in serious about it. To the point where we have written a temporary constistution for La R�publique du Qu�bec if the yes wins (which is more than likely to happen).

I also don't see a "yes" vote anytime in the near future. The majority of Quebec's population either lives in Quebec City or Montreal or are non-Francophone. These people stand nothing to gain through Quebec independence and much to lose. Look at the demographics of the last referendum; the majority of the people who voted "yes" were rural Francophones.

You are 100% wrong about Qu�bec's d�mographics. Better luck next time. We probably won the 1995 referendum. But the federal government had to cheat, like they always did, in the name of an united Canada.

As a Canadian, I would hate to see Quebec separate from Canada, although I would respect it's right to do so should >59% of it's population decide to do so. Should Quebec decide to be independent, I would hope it understands what "independent" actually means.

59% eh? Where on Earth did you find that number? This is anti-democratic BTW. More like 50%+1.

We're up for some cool constitutional action, next elections. The party's program is pretty straightforward: Independance will be the priority.

5 years at most and we're out of here. Gosh I want my country really bad.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by ambush:
59% eh? Where on Earth did you find that number? This is anti-democratic BTW. More like 50%+1.

50%+1 is a bit small of a margin to so drastically affect the lives of 50%-1 of your fellow citizens.

Let me ask you this; post separation, what would you do if 50%+1 of the Quebec population chose to RE-unite with Canada? Separatists always act as though once you've separated it will all be over. But you rarely seem to put much thought into post-separation. Should you separate with only 50%+1 of your population, you must remember that 50%-1 may want to reunite and that number has always fluctuated. It could be that the Quebec separation vote is replaced with a Quebec reunification vote.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by ambush:
5 years at most and we're out of here. Gosh I want my country really bad.

Separatists have been saying "5 years at most and we're out of here" since 1965. Talk about separation is practically a part of Quebec culture now. The reality is that while your population, just like Alberta's, likes to complain about the rest of Canada, most of them don't really want to separate. After 40 years of trying to separate, eventually that should become obvious to the Separatists.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

I don't think Quebec would do as well without the rest of Canada.

I say separation is a good thing as many US products are delayed MANY months in coming to Canada because they have to make every bit of packaging bilingual. Not to mention all those traffic signs.

Nuts to that.

[Spliff]

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Quebec can survive being independent but it will have to negotiate and sign all the treaties Canada has on it's own, NAFTA, etc. It wont be a free lunch.

They've been getting a "free lunch" for a long time. So many handouts from the Federal government. Bombardier should've been left to die a long time ago. They can't compete without subsidies (in the hundreds of millions of dollars) from the government.

Quebec can blow me. I'm sick of their whining. Let 'em separate.

[Athens]

Originally posted by ambush:

It all begins when France comes here in America. France having trouble in Europe, never put a lot of energy in their colony. We basically lost the demographic battle against the English colonies -- France was busy with all kinds of wars in Europe anyway. So yeah, the English finally attacked us in a lame backstab (Les Plaines D'Abraham) fight. And well France finally agreed to give New-France (which would later because Qu�bec) to England. So England has power over a french colony in America. They try to assimilate us -- doesn't work because we have a different culture, history, language, etc..

England didn't try to assimilate New France, if they did, the Quebec Act wouldn't have been created.

The Quebec Act was passed on June 22nd, 1774 by the British government, and became effective May 1st, 1775. It was framed largely by Gov. Sir Guy Carleton, although not all of his policies were incorporated into it.

The Quebec Act guaranteed the use of French civil law and British criminal law. It also guaranteed French Canadians the right to practice Roman Catholicism. The Act allowed the Catholic Church in Quebec to collect tax from it's members. Another part of the Quebec Act guaranteed the preservation of the landholding system at the time (the seigneural system). Under the Quebec Act, the colony would be governed by a governor and 17 to 23 appointed counsellors, but an elected assembly would not be provided.

The Quebec Act gave Quebec control over much of what is now Quebec, Ontario, and the Midwestern United States. The American settlers became enraged when Quebec acquired Indian Territory, which they believed to be theirs by right. The Americans considered the Quebec Act to be one of the "Intolerable Acts", which may have cotributed to the outbreak of the American Revolution.

The Quebec Act was passed to settle questions about the government and law for the French, but the British had a more selfish reason for passing the act. The British had a possible revolution in the Thirteen Colonies, and they wanted to have French support if the revoultion began. The British at least wanted to keep the French in Quebec from joining it.


Tell me what would Quebec gain from Independence that it doesn�t currently have now, besides billions in hand outs from the other provinces?


Ok I just read your other post

Yes they are mistreatign us. Over many issues. Namely in Healthcare. Ask other provinces that aren't rich like Alberta. Ask them in what state is their healthcare. Over the issue of culture and language. Canada does not want to recognize, acknowledge our differences. YOu want a proof? We're not in the constituion. We did NOT sign it.

Our federalist system SUCKS. Historically we don,t belong here. We have all the attributes of a nation. What the **** are we waiting for. Heck, they should have just let us go in the first place.

For one Alberta is a Rich provenience, Alberta and Ontario are the ones that carries all the other proveniences. Second we have recognized and acknowledged your differences, otherwise you wouldn�t have all this special treatment that no other provinces get. And don�t forget how much influence Quebec has had, French is the second official language for the entire country. All government services are in French and English even here in BC. Again I ask what difference will you notice as a your own nation? When it comes to health care, Quebec is the biggest fighter to protect the Canadian Health Act, and would prob as a independent country have the same system anyways.

[shmerek]

If find it interesting that anything the feds say against separation is just a scare tactic but everything the bloc says is truth. I lived in Montreal for five years and the majority of people I met were not interested in separation. There is no threat of the french language dying out and that is basically the only difference between quebec and the rest of Canada so I don't get what the problem is. All the provinces are getting screwed on health care; it isn't just a quebec thing.

Even if you did separate it would be a big friggin mess. What about those that voted no how would they be able to retain Canadian citizenship? If you want to separate find but you will have to hand that Canadian passport back thanks. Also what currency would you use? What if Montreal wanted to remain a part of Canada or become a city-state like the Vatican or Monaco would the new country of quebec be as permissive as the rest of Canada? What about all the canadian military bases in quebec? They would have to be stripped and sent back home to the motherland. You would have to take on part of the federal deficit as well. The amount of negotiations and **** like that would go on for years and years. It wouldn't be as easy as you thing and unless you had a 100% yes vote it would be total chaos. It seems to me that the only people that really want to separate are those form the townships who don't really have a clue about what Canada is really about.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by Athens:
England didn't try to assimilate New France, if they did, the Quebec Act wouldn't have been created.

The Quebec Act was passed on June 22nd, 1774 by the British government, and became effective May 1st, 1775. It was framed largely by Gov. Sir Guy Carleton, although not all of his policies were incorporated into it.

The Quebec Act guaranteed the use of French civil law and British criminal law. It also guaranteed French Canadians the right to practice Roman Catholicism. The Act allowed the Catholic Church in Quebec to collect tax from it's members. Another part of the Quebec Act guaranteed the preservation of the landholding system at the time (the seigneural system). Under the Quebec Act, the colony would be governed by a governor and 17 to 23 appointed counsellors, but an elected assembly would not be provided.

The Quebec Act gave Quebec control over much of what is now Quebec, Ontario, and the Midwestern United States. The American settlers became enraged when Quebec acquired Indian Territory, which they believed to be theirs by right. The Americans considered the Quebec Act to be one of the "Intolerable Acts", which may have cotributed to the outbreak of the American Revolution.

The Quebec Act was passed to settle questions about the government and law for the French, but the British had a more selfish reason for passing the act. The British had a possible revolution in the Thirteen Colonies, and they wanted to have French support if the revoultion began. The British at least wanted to keep the French in Quebec from joining it.


Tell me what would Quebec gain from Independence that it doesn�t currently have now, besides billions in hand outs from the other provinces?


Ok I just read your other post


For one Alberta is a Rich provenience, Alberta and Ontario are the ones that carries all the other proveniences. Second we have recognized and acknowledged your differences, otherwise you wouldn�t have all this special treatment that no other provinces get. And don�t forget how much influence Quebec has had, French is the second official language for the entire country. All government services are in French and English even here in BC. Again I ask what difference will you notice as a your own nation? When it comes to health care, Quebec is the biggest fighter to protect the Canadian Health Act, and would prob as a independent country have the same system anyways.

Beautifual post. Quebec, as a defeated territory or country, was treated handsomly by the British compared to many other nations at that time when many would just try to assimilate the people/territory that they defeated. Quebec has had better treatment than any other province of our country throughout its history, and is integral to the history of Canada, but separatists are too blind and ignorant to see that they are just as much a part of Canada as any other province. French language? Distinctive culture? So what? There are many areas of Canada with their own economies, own cultures distinct to their regions, and many of us Canadians have had to learn French because of the importance of Quebec's culture in our society, not to mention its large dominance in the affairs of Canadian politics. Where do you think most of the money went from that Sponsorship Scandal? You realize it was to keep Quebec businesses and politicians "happy."

I get so tired of you separatist idiots who've followed the fascist's "vive le Quebec libre" mantre when he visited Canada after we helped liberate France during WWII. The lies of the Bloc in the mid 90's such as "we will continue to use Canadian currency," etc., were transparanet to those who realized that they were bluffing, and what the true reality of a Quebec country meant: it was on its own and not retaining perks related to Canada. You're deluding yourself if you think that separatism is nothing more than racism, a political power struggle, and an idea based on a false representation of historical facts.

*edited* Athens, this post was directed at Ambush, but I felt your post to be well worth repeating as it reflected some of the false claims of separatists when it comes to the supposed treatment of Quebec throughout its history!

[shmerek]

Originally posted by ambush:
Please take time to read what I have to say.

I've been very active lately (I'm now a registered member of the nationalist social-democrat party (even tho lately they've been leaning on the Right side, I think it's about to change), the Parti Qu�b�cois). I will be doing a lot of activism for the next elections, in which I will legally be able to vote. That's like 2 years from now anyway. I'm implicated in the "Jeunes" (Youth) section of the party but also at my school (in a group) where I (will) write articles in the newspaper and just inform people in general. Recently, I've done a lot of reasearch on Qu�bec Nationalism because I had to hand out a paper for my politics course. Anyway I can post the PDF for french speaking fellows.

For americans especially (I know a lot of you do jokes about us, but then again we joke about you too -- anyway I have no problems with 49% of the US and that's a lot (E.g. the states near Qu�bec (I even ecourage their touristic industry) VT, NY, MA, Maine, etc but also for the Euro people in here (and the rest of the World also), I will try to objectively describe the situation of Qu�bec in a short summary of our history.

It all begins when France comes here in America. France having trouble in Europe, never put a lot of energy in their colony. We basically lost the demographic battle against the English colonies -- France was busy with all kinds of wars in Europe anyway. So yeah, the English finally attacked us in a lame backstab (Les Plaines D'Abraham) fight. And well France finally agreed to give New-France (which would later because Qu�bec) to England. So England has power over a french colony in America. They try to assimilate us -- doesn't work because we have a different culture, history, language, etc..

The American revolutions happens, the British govt. buys the Qu�bec people and tell them not to participate to the american revolution. As a "gift", they give us more power, bigger territory, etc. So we don't help the americans, even tho they came in Montr�al I think. Anyway. So yeah...

Then the friggin' LOYALISTS (they loved England SO MUCH) come here because they don't want to be americans (that's OK... who am I to judge that anyway). And then, the British unites us (loyalist + french canadians) into Canada... Lower Canada and Upper Canada (lower=french canadians)... And of COURSE even tho we're a lot more than the loyalists, they have more power than us. So basically we sit there and let them govern us while we're numerically more than them. So to make a long story short, they try to assimilate us again (assimilation is a theme that's very popular in our history, as you can already see). We tried to reform the political system that disadvantaged us for no reason. Doesn't work, the Brits LAUGH at us and humiliate us. We try to rebel with help from fellow americans. No dice. Even if we had the will to put an end to this slavery, this utter political disgrace, we were totally massacred by Colborne's superior army. After a couple of battles won, they finally massacred us into our own churches. They hung those who were not killed in the battles and sent others in British colonies (namely Australia, where one of my ancestors was exiled.) Anyway.. since 1960 (the quit revolution), we do nothing but try to survive in our religion, in our past, our language, our culture. Then 1960 comes. The quiet revolution begins. The Qu�bec people wants to flourish.... real nationalism begins... we finally take back our electricity (Hydro-Qu�bec), etc, etc. A bourgeois Qu�b�cois class begins to appear (before, ONLY the english had the power and the money). To make a long story short, we went through 2 "referendums"... we lost the first 40% vs. 60% and the last one in 1995 (I was rougly 10) 49.7%.

Hard facts: We possess every attribute of a nation: our own Culture, religion (bah!), language, history and finally TERRITORY. We never, even historically, BELONGED to Canada. We're NOT like the rest of Canada.

The canadian/british government has enslaved us (but ALSO the natives) to serve their idiotic federalist ideology. They hated us, tried to assimilate us. No luck, we're still here and strong. We have been the victims of all sorts of hate, etc. E.g. they sent a LOT more french-canadians to "test" (they knew we had no chance) the beaches in Germany. ON ****ing PURPOSE. The list is ****ing long. We have been for a LONG time, the "white niggers (n�gres blancs)" (NO offense intended to my fellow african-americans) of Nort America.

In the 1995 referendum, the "non" camp (against independance) had 9x more money than the "oui" camp. DESPITE STRICT provincial laws, they found a way to bypass the law. They also frauded MILIONS in Patriotic ads. heck, it was funded by the government of Canada. Our own assimilation. What a ****ing disgrace. Last news is that former minister Gagliano was in the mafia. He was also involved in the patriotic frauds.

Misc. Notes: Technically, we're not part of the Canadian constitution. Qu�bec has NOT SIGNED THE CONSTITUTION (conf�d�ration act) OF CANADA.

Harvard study showed we are 100% able ECONOMICALLY to make our independance.

Canadian federalism is going DOWN, and even the other provinces agree on that.

What are your thoughts (americans who did their independance from the Brits, I'm interested to know what you think, no i'm no talking to you Kilbey.) on our situation.

Okay I read what you had to say and you are basically bitching over what happened over a 100 years ago. Get over it already. Enslaved you? Please, you are doing a serious disservice to the first nations by lumping your suffering in with their's. I don't recall the federal government taking french children away form their families and putting them into boarding schools to rid them of their cultural heritage. The beaches of Germany WTF are you talking about? White-niggers??? You are talking out your ass dude. If anything the anglos in quebec are discriminated against not to mention people of various other ethnic origins. Didn't that drunk Parizeau blame the last failure on the ethnic vote? If you want to have a serious discussion you shouldn't of written the whiny drivel above.

[Athens]

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:
Beautifual post. Quebec, as a defeated territory or country, was treated handsomly by the British compared to many other nations at that time when many would just try to assimilate the people/territory that they defeated. Quebec has had better treatment than any other province of our country throughout its history, and is integral to the history of Canada, but separatists are too blind and ignorant to see that they are just as much a part of Canada as any other province. French language? Distinctive culture? So what? There are many areas of Canada with their own economies, own cultures distinct to their regions, and many of us Canadians have had to learn French because of the importance of Quebec's culture in our society, not to mention its large dominance in the affairs of Canadian politics. Where do you think most of the money went from that Sponsorship Scandal? You realize it was to keep Quebec businesses and politicians "happy."

I get so tired of you separatist idiots who've followed the fascist's "vive le Quebec libre" mantre when he visited Canada after we helped liberate France during WWII. The lies of the Bloc in the mid 90's such as "we will continue to use Canadian currency," etc., were transparanet to those who realized that they were bluffing, and what the true reality of a Quebec country meant: it was on its own and not retaining perks related to Canada. You're deluding yourself if you think that separatism is nothing more than racism, a political power struggle, and an idea based on a false representation of historical facts.

*edited* Athens, this post was directed at Ambush, but I felt your post to be well worth repeating as it reflected some of the false claims of separatists when it comes to the supposed treatment of Quebec throughout its history!

Well Said, another side note I would like to mention, is how many Prime Ministers have been from Quebec.

Prime Minister Jean Chretien born in 1934 in Shawinigan Quebec
He passed the Clarity Bill saying Quebec can only separate after a solid majority votes "yes" on a clear question.

Prime Minister Brian Mulroney born March 20, 1939 in Baie Comeau. Quebec. He created the Canada Multiculturalism Act 1988

Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau, there is just to much to be said about this great man. Well except he was Prime Minister for 16 years.

Prime Minister Sir Wilfrid Laurier born November 20, 1841 in St. Lin Quebec

and there are prob more, I just don�t feel like digging past 100 years.

[Athens]

ops

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by ambush:
What are your thoughts (americans who did their independance from the Brits, I'm interested to know what you think, no i'm no talking to you Kilbey.) on our situation.

just off the top of my head, any chance that quebec could become a member of the eu?

geographically i think iceland and turkey are just about as far apart as quebec and france.

would people there even be interested?

[Spliffdaddy]

I love this thread.

[MacGorilla]

Originally posted by Spliff:
They've been getting a "free lunch" for a long time. So many handouts from the Federal government. Bombardier should've been left to die a long time ago. They can't compete without subsidies (in the hundreds of millions of dollars) from the government.

Quebec can blow me. I'm sick of their whining. Let 'em separate.

Thats how I feel; if you are going to go, go, if not, quit your bitchin'

[Spliffdaddy]

*Spliffdaddy takes notes...and waits for the day when the South rises again*

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Quebec can survive being independent but it will have to negotiate and sign all the treaties Canada has on it's own, NAFTA, etc. It wont be a free lunch.

As an observer I don't get why Quebec wants to be free; that already have many special laws and no one in Canada is mistreating them.

It seems the Quebec thing goes in cycles. Its probably time for another indepedence vote before things return to normal.

I am not sure this will go so far this time. It is true that there are cycles, but it is always the same group of people animating (and crucifying) the effort for the Independance.

In a few generations, it may be reality, but not in this one, imho.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by ambush:
Considering we would have won the last vote w/o the frauds... it's very close to being the last try -- and it will surely make us independant. Next time we'll have the UN in here to verify there are no frauds happening. But then again, can we ever be certain? I think not. The federalists already shown how determined they are to make us stay in their sinking federalist ship. They recently passed the C-20 bill that gives them the right to decide if a vote is legal or not and what is the "majority". E.g. we win next referendum with 60%, they would still have to decide if it's legal. How does it even make sense?

Yes they are mistreatign us. Over many issues. Namely in Healthcare. Ask other provinces that aren't rich like Alberta. Ask them in what state is their healthcare. Over the issue of culture and language. Canada does not want to recognize, acknowledge our differences. YOu want a proof? We're not in the constituion. We did NOT sign it.

Our federalist system SUCKS. Historically we don,t belong here. We have all the attributes of a nation. What the **** are we waiting for. Heck, they should have just let us go in the first place.

Ambush, je pense que tu pousses un peu fort.

I do not believe there were so many frauds or that the federalism system sucks so much that an Independant Quebec would be better. Don't get me wrong: I believe in Quebec's Independance, but not because Canada sucks: that is a very lame proposal then. Canada is a great country, with or without Quebec; perfectible, of course, like all democracies. But it does not suck, nor does its political system.

If Quebec wants its independance, it should not be in reaction to Canada, but rather, because of a will to make something we can own for ourselves, something we want to create to get better as a growth process.

Ts� j'veux dire?

[ambush]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
50%+1 is a bit small of a margin to so drastically affect the lives of 50%-1 of your fellow citizens.

Let me ask you this; post separation, what would you do if 50%+1 of the Quebec population chose to RE-unite with Canada? Separatists always act as though once you've separated it will all be over. But you rarely seem to put much thought into post-separation. Should you separate with only 50%+1 of your population, you must remember that 50%-1 may want to reunite and that number has always fluctuated. It could be that the Quebec separation vote is replaced with a Quebec reunification vote.

Last time I checked the books, the ideology of Democracy was about the majority of the people ruling. Not 59%+1 (wherever that silly number came from.)

About your other silly assertion: the government won't do another referendum after the vote. You silly ...

[ambush]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Separatists have been saying "5 years at most and we're out of here" since 1965. Talk about separation is practically a part of Quebec culture now. The reality is that while your population, just like Alberta's, likes to complain about the rest of Canada, most of them don't really want to separate. After 40 years of trying to separate, eventually that should become obvious to the Separatists.

That's it, close your eyes on the numbers.
You see, you can say "40 years"... yeah 40 years is long. But you can also say 2 votes. And the last one we lost by 0.3%. Hey, Mr. Percentage, this means 49.7% of Qu�bec wanted to separate. Whoops, the government actually passed a law that would enable immigrants to vote a lot faster. Whoops the government funded 9x more the NON camp. Whoops they also frauded milions for TV ads and flags and ****. Whoops stupid Ontarians came here in Montr�al downtown to CRY and tell us they wanted us to stay here.

Canada can be a good country -- if you consider yourself as a Canadian, which I don't.

Some of you -- I have the impression -- cannot understand Nationalism. Even if you did your independance (Americans).

[ambush]

Originally posted by Athens:
England didn't try to assimilate New France, if they did, the Quebec Act wouldn't have been created.


Tell me what would Quebec gain from Independence that it doesn�t currently have now, besides billions in hand outs from the other provinces?


Ok I just read your other post


For one Alberta is a Rich provenience, Alberta and Ontario are the ones that carries all the other proveniences. Second we have recognized and acknowledged your differences, otherwise you wouldn�t have all this special treatment that no other provinces get. And don�t forget how much influence Quebec has had, French is the second official language for the entire country. All government services are in French and English even here in BC. Again I ask what difference will you notice as a your own nation? When it comes to health care, Quebec is the biggest fighter to protect the Canadian Health Act, and would prob as a independent country have the same system anyways.

If you can't spell province right I'm not arguing with you. It's just pointless, you see.

But here it is: It is a historical fact that the Brits have tried to assimilate us. The Qu�bec Act wasn't for long and they just wanted us to ally against the american revolution. Please read the Durham report (a lord that was sent here to investigate on the causes of the 1837 rebellion) he said CLEARLY "assimilate them" and he propose the Union Act. it's in the friggin books go educate yourself for god's sake.

[ambush]

Originally posted by shmerek:
If find it interesting that anything the feds say against separation is just a scare tactic but everything the bloc says is truth. I lived in Montreal for five years and the majority of people I met were not interested in separation. There is no threat of the french language dying out and that is basically the only difference between quebec and the rest of Canada so I don't get what the problem is. All the provinces are getting screwed on health care; it isn't just a quebec thing.

Even if you did separate it would be a big friggin mess. What about those that voted no how would they be able to retain Canadian citizenship? If you want to separate find but you will have to hand that Canadian passport back thanks. Also what currency would you use? What if Montreal wanted to remain a part of Canada or become a city-state like the Vatican or Monaco would the new country of quebec be as permissive as the rest of Canada? What about all the canadian military bases in quebec? They would have to be stripped and sent back home to the motherland. You would have to take on part of the federal deficit as well. The amount of negotiations and **** like that would go on for years and years. It wouldn't be as easy as you thing and unless you had a 100% yes vote it would be total chaos. It seems to me that the only people that really want to separate are those form the townships who don't really have a clue about what Canada is really about.

All of your questions are answered in the Parti Qu�b�cois' documentations. There are actually PhDs working on constitutions at this moment. And they outline how every details -- from the military to the post offices -- will work in the new Qu�bec.

[ambush]

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:
Beautifual post. Quebec, as a defeated territory or country, was treated handsomly by the British compared to many other nations at that time when many would just try to assimilate the people/territory that they defeated. Quebec has had better treatment than any other province of our country throughout its history, and is integral to the history of Canada, but separatists are too blind and ignorant to see that they are just as much a part of Canada as any other province. French language? Distinctive culture? So what? There are many areas of Canada with their own economies, own cultures distinct to their regions, and many of us Canadians have had to learn French because of the importance of Quebec's culture in our society, not to mention its large dominance in the affairs of Canadian politics. Where do you think most of the money went from that Sponsorship Scandal? You realize it was to keep Quebec businesses and politicians "happy."

I get so tired of you separatist idiots who've followed the fascist's "vive le Quebec libre" mantre when he visited Canada after we helped liberate France during WWII. The lies of the Bloc in the mid 90's such as "we will continue to use Canadian currency," etc., were transparanet to those who realized that they were bluffing, and what the true reality of a Quebec country meant: it was on its own and not retaining perks related to Canada. You're deluding yourself if you think that separatism is nothing more than racism, a political power struggle, and an idea based on a false representation of historical facts.

*edited* Athens, this post was directed at Ambush, but I felt your post to be well worth repeating as it reflected some of the false claims of separatists when it comes to the supposed treatment of Quebec throughout its history!

You go tell that we were well treated by the government. GO tell that to the Quebecers, you'll receive a punch in your face. Go tell that to Michel Tremblay who wrote about the miserable economical condition of the Qu�becers in the 50es. And how they were exploited. Go ahead, do your uneducated self a favor and read the ****ing history books. It's a story of assimilation. They try, we resist. Read teh Durham report. Friggin idiot. Read it: it's in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durham_Report

Tell that to the regiments of French-Canadians who were sent on the first lines to act as cannon folders. Actually you can't: they're all dead. We were exploited by rich bosses.. cheap labour, no right to speak in French, etc. They hated us, the government never did anything until we realised in 1960 it was just enough.

You make me want to puke. Next referendum don't come here to cry and ask us to stay. Please don't.

[ambush]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
just off the top of my head, any chance that quebec could become a member of the eu?

geographically i think iceland and turkey are just about as far apart as quebec and france.

would people there even be interested?

LOL probably. Europe in America!! what a great idea.

Feasible? No. But sweet idea.

[ambush]

Originally posted by SimpleLife:
Ambush, je pense que tu pousses un peu fort.

I do not believe there were so many frauds or that the federalism system sucks so much that an Independant Quebec would be better. Don't get me wrong: I believe in Quebec's Independance, but not because Canada sucks: that is a very lame proposal then. Canada is a great country, with or without Quebec; perfectible, of course, like all democracies. But it does not suck, nor does its political system.

If Quebec wants its independance, it should not be in reaction to Canada, but rather, because of a will to make something we can own for ourselves, something we want to create to get better as a growth process.

Ts� j'veux dire?

j'suis d'accord mais le f�d�ralisme canadien bat de l'aile.

[benb]

Originally posted by ambush:
If you can't spell province right I'm not arguing with you. It's just pointless, you see.

Later. . .

Originally posted by ambush:
Read teh Durham report. Friggin idiot.

[Spliffdaddy]

*hugs ambush*

Best of luck in your endeavour to distance yourself from Canada.

[Psychonaut]

Ambush, I'm still not clear on how you (and other Qu�b�cois) feel that you are oppressed by the federalist system. I'm speaking about present day, post-L�vesque.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by ambush:
j'suis d'accord mais le f�d�ralisme canadien bat de l'aile.

Yes, it is not that strong, but nevertheless, you are actually, in this thread, making more troubles than federalism has made; be careful in your judgement; you are quite heavy-handed here.

[Spliff]

Ambush,

Have you ever left the borders of Quebec to visit the rest of Canada for any significant amount of time? And visiting the Acadians in New Brunswick doesn't count.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by ambush:
You go tell that we were well treated by the government. GO tell that to the Quebecers, you'll receive a punch in your face. Go tell that to Michel Tremblay who wrote about the miserable economical condition of the Qu�becers in the 50es. And how they were exploited. Go ahead, do your uneducated self a favor and read the ****ing history books. It's a story of assimilation. They try, we resist. Read teh Durham report. Friggin idiot. Read it: it's in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durham_Report

Tell that to the regiments of French-Canadians who were sent on the first lines to act as cannon folders. Actually you can't: they're all dead. We were exploited by rich bosses.. cheap labour, no right to speak in French, etc. They hated us, the government never did anything until we realised in 1960 it was just enough.

You make me want to puke. Next referendum don't come here to cry and ask us to stay. Please don't.

Wait, you're complaining about that report written by a British politician sent to Canada before it had even been formed as its own country? Incredible at the kind of dredge separatists are willing to use as propaganada. And having studied Quebec in the 19th century before, that report's nothing new, and still doesn't change a thing I've said about Quebec's favorable treatment by the British compared to many defeated people/nations of that time.

Quebec throughout the history of Canada's involvement in wars has had a considerable lack of participation compared to other provinces. This isn't to suggest that there haven't been some great groups in our armed forces to have come out of Quebec, but to complain that they were sent to the front lines as only fodder shows a complete lack of understanding to Quebec's opposition of participation in the World Wars. It also underscores how you are ignorant of Quebec's political power in federal matters.

Many provinces have at various times had their difficulties with the federal government, but Quebec has still been treated with such a favored attituted compared to any other province. The 1950's? Well, considering you're not old enough to vote, I doubt you can feel the grievences of the politics from back then. It's not as though the federal government is "keeping you down" with repressive politics or enforcing repressive systems on the Quebec people. Instead of dealing with the fact that Quebec has had favourable treatment for at least 40 years (ignoring how well it was treated by Britain after its defeat), you're still complaining about things that are not affecting the lives and work of the current citizens of Quebec. Governments make mistakes but progress happens, while separatist idiots like you are crying over things that happened in the past had have already been dealt with in a positive manner to the benefit of your province.

I realize you live in Quebec, and I've visited it a few times and talked with a couple people on the issue of separatism without managing to get punched. Some people aren't so wrapped up in ideology that they can discuss political matters with other people without resorting to physical violence because of the opinions expressed by other people.

And as Psychonaut so elegantly asks: how are you being opressed by the current federalist system?

[Spliff]

Originally posted by ambush:
All of your questions are answered in the Parti Qu�b�cois' documentations.

LOL. You believe the propaganda of a political party?

[shmerek]

Originally posted by ambush:
All of your questions are answered in the Parti Qu�b�cois' documentations. There are actually PhDs working on constitutions at this moment. And they outline how every details -- from the military to the post offices -- will work in the new Qu�bec.

So somewhere in the bloc propaganda it explains how the quebecois were lead to their slaughter on the beaches of Germany? It also explains the "white nig***" discrimination you are talking about? Any Phd can work on a constitution, it doesn't mean that the Canadian government will agree with the terms.

[shmerek]

Originally posted by Spliff:
LOL. You believe the propaganda of a political party?

Of course he does otherwise he wouldn't be a seperatist. It is curious how everything the bloc says it truth but anything the feds says is fear mongering and propaganda.

[ambush]

Originally posted by benb:
Later. . .

Yes -- I mispell some words on purpose and I make some typos. Also, English is not my mother tongue.

But that guy went from Province to Provenience.

[ambush]

Originally posted by shmerek:
Of course he does otherwise he wouldn't be a seperatist. It is curious how everything the bloc says it truth but anything the feds says is fear mongering and propaganda.

Please don't blame me for not trusting Martin -- after all wasn't he the president of that Canada Steamship Lines company? Ahem Ahem.

Also, isn't Gagliano affiliated with the NYC mafia???? You forgot the sponsorship scandal too.

Who knows what else happened? We found this in just one year.

I'm very sorry -- I don't trust them at all.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by ambush:
Please don't blame me for not trusting Martin -- after all wasn't he the president of that Canada Steamship Lines company? Ahem Ahem.

Also, isn't Gagliano affiliated with the NYC mafia???? You forgot the sponsorship scandal too.

Who knows what else happened? We found this in just one year.

I'm very sorry -- I don't trust them at all.

And the companies receiving money were Qu�becois. It was about political appeasement to Quebec companies and Quebec politicians.

[James L]

Originally posted by Spliff:
LOL. You believe the propaganda of a political party?

Yup....he does. Isn't it a shame that the mind of such a passionate youth can be twisted so poorly into believing that crap?

To the orginal poster, there are always two sides to every story. Please do not base all of your thoughts on propoganda from a political party. Look at all the people in the states who actually passionately believe a government that lied to them to invade a country under false pretenses.

[James L]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
...when the South rises again*

With a banjo in one hand, white extremists in its political party, a gun rack in every pickup, and the word "YEEEEHAW" in your new national anthem I am sure.

Or, at least, that is how it sounds when you make comments like that.

[ambush]

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:
Wait, you're complaining about that report written by a British politician sent to Canada before it had even been formed as its own country? Incredible at the kind of dredge separatists are willing to use as propaganada. And having studied Quebec in the 19th century before, that report's nothing new, and still doesn't change a thing I've said about Quebec's favorable treatment by the British compared to many defeated people/nations of that time.

This is just one of the many examples, unfortunately.

Quebec throughout the history of Canada's involvement in wars has had a considerable lack of participation compared to other provinces. This isn't to suggest that there haven't been some great groups in our armed forces to have come out of Quebec, but to complain that they were sent to the front lines as only fodder shows a complete lack of understanding to Quebec's opposition of participation in the World Wars. It also underscores how you are ignorant of Quebec's political power in federal matters.

Who can blame us for not wanting to fight for the Boers war? After all we're French people. The Qu�bec people is more pacifist than the rest of Canada/America. E.g. the war in Iraq: there was a HUGE demonstration downtown. Anyway, we did go to WW2 and we were on the frontlines eating the bullets for you. My family can tell.

There were MANY secret ops involving elite french groups (to collaborate with the French R�sistance, because obviously we speak better French than you), people rarely know about them.

Many provinces have at various times had their difficulties with the federal government, but Quebec has still been treated with such a favored attituted compared to any other province. The 1950's? Well, considering you're not old enough to vote, I doubt you can feel the grievences of the politics from back then. It's not as though the federal government is "keeping you down" with repressive politics or enforcing repressive systems on the Quebec people. Instead of dealing with the fact that Quebec has had favourable treatment for at least 40 years (ignoring how well it was treated by Britain after its defeat), you're still complaining about things that are not affecting the lives and work of the current citizens of Quebec. Governments make mistakes but progress happens, while separatist idiots like you are crying over things that happened in the past had have already been dealt with in a positive manner to the benefit of your province.

I realize you live in Quebec, and I've visited it a few times and talked with a couple people on the issue of separatism without managing to get punched. Some people aren't so wrapped up in ideology that they can discuss political matters with other people without resorting to physical violence because of the opinions expressed by other people.

And as Psychonaut so elegantly asks: how are you being opressed by the current federalist system?

-the current federalist system sucks (see healthcare)
-federalism does not automatically sucks (see the USA). but it does when one of the provinces/states isn't part of the federation
-we want more power on immigration
-OUR LANGUAGE
-and finally something you can't understand: we want our own country.
-if we're sooooo favored, why don't we separate. if they give us so much money, you,d be richer w/o us? no?

[ambush]

Originally posted by shmerek:
So somewhere in the bloc propaganda it explains how the quebecois were lead to their slaughter on the beaches of Germany? It also explains the "white nig***" discrimination you are talking about? Any Phd can work on a constitution, it doesn't mean that the Canadian government will agree with the terms.

If you were not such a bigot, you'd know the Bloc is a party who represents the Qu�b�cois People and fights for them in a federal way. There's no propaganda involved. It's plain hard truth.

If you prefer Martin (STEAMSHIP+SPONSORSHIP), Chr�tien (AHEM Grand-M�re scandal+sponsorship), Gagliano (MAFIA, sponsorship), that's YOUR business. I don't feel like I want to be represented by them.

You are ironic.

Next time when you open your mouth to say "propaganda" or "lies", think twice.

[Timo]

Originally posted by ambush:
Last time I checked the books, the ideology of Democracy was about the majority of the people ruling. Not 59%+1 (wherever that silly number came from.)

Actually, in a representative democracy, the trick is to protect the rights of a minority from the tyranny of a majority.

It's not clear what an independent Quebec stands to gain, but I agree with the above poster that if there were a project that the federal system pervents Quebec from achieving, then yes it would be good to separate. But your proposal is simply the substituting of one tyranny of a majority for another. And if there were every an example of this folly, the French Revolution's time of Terror would be a good example to look into.

[ambush]

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:
And the companies receiving money were Qu�becois. It was about political appeasement to Quebec companies and Quebec politicians.

WHAT KIND OF ARGUMENT IS THAT, IDIOT?
QUEBECOIS? NO THEY DIDNT EVEN CONSIDER THEMSELVES QUEBECOIS, THEY'RE HARDCORE FEDERALIST CANADIANS. FRAUD IS FRAUD. HELLO?????

You know who benefited from that money? They're big federalists firms like BCP, run by (oh what a surprise) JOHN PARISELLA



Who is John Parisella? He was a high ranking pro-federalist Liberal high ranking director of the Liberal Party.

If you say people like him are Qu�b�cois, I will puke on you