[besson3c]

Here is a deceptively difficult question that I'm sure will cause some debate:

What exactly is the role of our high schools and higher-ed schools?

[Ghoser777]

My answer: to make kids think.

I get asked constantly by students, "When am I ever going to use this in life"... and they're right, most of them will never use the pythagorean theorem ever after they finish their last math class. But what's great about geometry, and I think this can be true for all subjects, is that the questions can be posed in such a way that students have to think deeply, through synthesis different ideas from different situations, to reach an answer. This skill, at least in my opinion, is more important than any math theorem or whatnot.

That said, I don't think college, or even high school, is for everyone. I have several kids who would be much better suited for a trade school.

[besson3c]

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
My answer: to make kids think.

I get asked constantly by students, "When am I ever going to use this in life"... and they're right, most of them will never use the pythagorean theorem ever after they finish their last math class. But what's great about geometry, and I think this can be true for all subjects, is that the questions can be posed in such a way that students have to think deeply, through synthesis different ideas from different situations, to reach an answer. This skill, at least in my opinion, is more important than any math theorem or whatnot.

That said, I don't think college, or even high school, is for everyone. I have several kids who would be much better suited for a trade school.

Interesting answer... so, how would you design curriculum? I mean, you could get students to think teaching any number of things....

[JohnSmithXTREME]

Since this is a broad question, it deserves a teleological answer. Education is used to pacify the middle and lower classes, and to instill in them the values of their society.

[demograph68]

I got my GED. My time in high school was a nightmare. I had terrible anxiety from being in a school with 1600 other students. I took a class for computer graphics during the same year I got my GED. That was almost 5 years ago. If it wasn't for that class, I wouldn't be here right now.

[lavar78]

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
My answer: to make kids think.

Sadly, most kids resist thinking at every turn. What I wouldn't give to eliminate calculators from schools...

I get asked constantly by students, "When am I ever going to use this in life"... and they're right, most of them will never use the pythagorean theorem ever after they finish their last math class. But what's great about geometry, and I think this can be true for all subjects, is that the questions can be posed in such a way that students have to think deeply, through synthesis different ideas from different situations, to reach an answer. This skill, at least in my opinion, is more important than any math theorem or whatnot.

Exactly -- problem solving is universal. That's part of the answer I give my kids. I also tell them that they actually have no idea what they'll need later in life. Those that have their lives all planned out as teenagers don't seem to realize things can (and probably will) change. The other thing I tell them is that there will surely be plenty of times in their lives when they'll have to do something they don't like. They need to learn suck it up and deal.

That said, I don't think college, or even high school, is for everyone. I have several kids who would be much better suited for a trade school.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[RAILhead]

I really, really enjoyed the rolls we had in High School. Back then, an extra roll was only a dime, so I'd buy about half a dozen extra.

Those were the good ol' days...

[Kilbey]

Day care?

[KeriVit]

I think it started out as the right idea.... teach kids the basics on many levels then go deeper into the subjects so that hopefully, one might find out our niche. The problem is then, it is not necessarily nurtured. There are so many pre-requisites and requirements that one cannot delve into the subjects that might have the most influence on the pursuit of a college degree or a career path in a differnt direction. That is why the first year or so of college is a waste. Many students do not truly know what they want to do. They think they might, because they got a taste, but once it is a concentration- it's like "Oh, ****! What is this?"

I see some middle and high schools changing this somewhat, but the state still regulates it- so there is little control on an individual basis. There are relaxed environments, more extra-curricular groups, and open policies.

Pesrsonally, I hated high school, some due the classes, some social issues. However, I thrived in college. I was fortunate to find my path. My peers weren't always so lucky. Of my group, let's see.... 3 out of 9 graduated within 4 years. 2 more later.4 still haven't. I'm not putting them down- everyone is still successful in their own right. I'm proud of all of my friends.

That being said- the role of high schools could be adjusted to allow more nurturing, not forcing everyone toward college necessarily but toward finding one's true path.

[webcookie]

I can't speak for every high school, but the one that I went to (for 2 years before dropping out to homeschool because I couldn't stand it) was pretty much just a babysitting service. No learning could take place because the faculty had to be bothered with making sure everyone behaved, wasn't on drugs, wasn't selling drugs at the school, etc. They had to make an announcement one morning during my sophomore year that no one should buy the pot being sold in the parking lot because it was laced with something bad. Needless to say, some kid bought the pot and got very sick.

I thought very seriously about becoming a teacher, but since I left high school and experienced homeschooling, and realized what crap public school is, I couldn't do it. If I ever have children, I will homeschool them.

School *should* be a place for knowledge to thrive, to get students interested, to help them find a path in life. But I fear that most schools are not that way. That's why I advocate homeschooling. With that, you can make sure your kids are getting what they need, and not having to worry about going to school with a bunch of drug dealers and bullies.

The sad thing about high school is that they all operate with the premise of "get this kid to university" and label anyone as a failure who isn't well suited to that premise.

Some kids are more suited to trades, arts, etc. - they should offer an education to help students who should be on that path.

[finboy]

Two words: operant conditioning.

The thing is, everyone can learn to problem solve and think critically, but our schools aren't set up to do that. After almost 20 years as an instructor in higher ed (college and tech school), I still find that approximately 30-40 percent of undergrads don't need to be here. They need to be somewhere learning about life, and hard work, and how to establish and meet goals, etc. They have no use for book or experiential learning in a curriculum at this stage of their lives, and need to be more focused before society sets about exhausting resources in their behalf.

To some extent, that's the fault of loose admission standards at colleges -- in a quest for green. But it's also a failure of the public school system that would rather indoctrinate and placate than actually challenge students -- also a quest for green. There is no substitute for building self-esteem through hard work and trial-and-error.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

What exactly is the role of our high schools and higher-ed schools?

High school: General education in a variety of topics while emphasis on helping to find the student's interest. Developing the student's interest and strengths in the direction they are thinking of and/or helping them make a decision on a career.

College: Developing a student to be a professional in their field of choice.



I personally think I grew up a lot in college, but it is not their responsibilty. It was mine and I am glad I turned out well.



[If a student has not found anything yet, liberal arts with standard helpful classes such as Business 101, General Computing 101 and etc.]

[besson3c]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
What exactly is the role of our high schools and higher-ed schools?
College: Developing a student to be a professional in their field of choice.

I was waiting for somebody to say this. There is great polarization between those who think that colleges/universities ought to be hands on/trade-school like and those who think it should be liberal artsy/ivory tower/academic/theoretical.

I'd say that by far and large, most universities adopt the latter approach, this is sort of the premise of a liberal arts education.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
College: Developing a student to be a professional in their field of choice.

No, that's grad school or professional school.

College (at least in the liberal arts) is where you learn how to do research, how to organize that research, how to really write in a clear and concise way, and above all, how to independently organize yourself.

[typoon]

I think one thing they should be teaching in school is basic things like how to balance a check book. How and what they should do not to run up so much Credit card debt. Things like how loans work, interest rates, 401K, IRA's and things like that they will need for real life. As well as the normal stuff. I think classes like that should be made into required classes. They should also teach students to think for themselves and not be fed some teacher's political views as it happening in many schools today. A teacher should keep their politics out of the class room and in classes that teach American history or classes of the sort should let the student express their views while keeping theirs out.

[finboy]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
No, that's grad school or professional school.

College (at least in the liberal arts) is where you learn how to do research, how to organize that research, how to really write in a clear and concise way, and above all, how to independently organize yourself.

I agree.

A general, liberal arts education would be great, with a sense of where we are in the timeline of history, but it's become so slanted that kids are mainly indoctrinated in the first two years of college and disheartened after that.

[finboy]

Originally posted by typoon:
should let the student express their views

I think this has to be tempered with reality as well. I think kids should be encouraged to form and express their opinions, but I think that there needs to be someone moderating the discuss. Kids may not have well-developed opinions about important topics, or opinions that reflect years of study and experience. A teacher should be able to express themselves without biasing their audience, I would hope.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
No, that's grad school or professional school.

College (at least in the liberal arts) is where you learn how to do research, how to organize that research, how to really write in a clear and concise way, and above all, how to independently organize yourself.

For certain professions like a doctor or lawyer, yes.

I was not born of privilege like some folk. I took out loans, worked while attending college just to go to college. I worked my ass off, got jobs while in school and graduated and worked full-time in my profession. Are you proposing I stayed in school for 2 more years and wracked up another 30,000 in debt and missed out on another 25,000-30,000 on income? I certainly can't sustain a scholastic lifestyle for that long. I gained 20lbs in my senior year from the pressure and was broke as hell.

I am a graphic designer and I think 4 years was perfect. I learned all that stuff you mentioned in High School. (I did go to a special HS though)

[besson3c]

Originally posted by typoon:
I think one thing they should be teaching in school is basic things like how to balance a check book. How and what they should do not to run up so much Credit card debt. Things like how loans work, interest rates, 401K, IRA's and things like that they will need for real life. As well as the normal stuff. I think classes like that should be made into required classes. They should also teach students to think for themselves and not be fed some teacher's political views as it happening in many schools today. A teacher should keep their politics out of the class room and in classes that teach American history or classes of the sort should let the student express their views while keeping theirs out.

Republican, right? Your post screams Republican...

I disagree completely. I believe a teacher needs to do everything possible to engage students in learning critical thinking skills. If this requires throwing out a belief or even playing devil's advocate to jump-start a conversation, so be it. This is a far cry from requiring students to adopt your viewpoints or not entertaining opposing viewpoints - this is not a good environment for encouraging critical thinking.

Have you had an experience like this, or have you just read some stats about the democratic tendencies of professors and assumed that they must be brainwashing students with their own beliefs?

This sort of "solution" is overly simplistic and ineffective, much like pushing unconditional abstinence and telling kids that doing drugs are not cool. At a cursory glance, it sounds like this is logical and reasonable, but I believe this approach has been ineffective for years. I'd prefer proper education on this subject matter and getting students to use their brains based upon known facts rather than prudish puritanical beliefs or fear-mongering propaganda.

As for teaching students about interest rates and such, how dull! Why not kill two birds with one stone and teaching students how to think so that they can figure this out on their own? This subject matter is not difficult enough to warrant an entire class devoted to this, is it? Am I missing something?

It all comes back to critical thinking skills.

[besson3c]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
For certain professions like a doctor or lawyer, yes.

I was not born of privilege like some folk. I took out loans, worked while attending college just to go to college. I worked my ass off, got jobs while in school and graduated and worked full-time in my profession. Are you proposing I stayed in school for 2 more years and wracked up another 30,000 in debt and missed out on another 25,000-30,000 on income? I certainly can't sustain a scholastic lifestyle for that long. I gained 20lbs in my senior year from the pressure and was broke as hell.

I am a graphic designer and I think 4 years was perfect. I learned all that stuff you mentioned in High School. (I did go to a special HS though)

Another way of looking at what a liberal arts education tries to teach is "learning how to learn."

I agree that some subject matter is better suited for a trade school. Graphic design might be one of these subjects, although I'd argue that to associate with the best in this field one ought to have a handle on design theory, history, and should be able to deconstruct a piece of work.

A little knowledge of theory that has been internalized to the point of application can help a more broad and general understanding of the work, rather than just relying on experience to produce something that looks decent - and that looks like all of the rest of your work.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

I went to an art school that forced me to take a certain amount of humanities credits.

Including math, writing, business, history, technology as well special humanities just for my major. hostory of graphic design and art history.

4 years in a good college is plenty. some people art not apt to the educational process though I have to admit.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
I went to an art school that forced me to take a certain amount of humanities credits.

Which is an illustration of how a bachelor's degree is not an education designed to help people specialize. If anything, bachelor's degrees are designed to prevent people from specializing too much too early. That's why they contain strict distribution requirements and have you take a bunch of survey courses. You are not allowed to just take classes in your chosen field because you are supposed to come out with a broad (though less in depth) general education.

More advanced degrees (which I am NOT suggesting everyone is obliged to take) are all about increasingly narrow specialization.

[lavar78]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Which is an illustration of how a bachelor's degree is not an education designed to help people specialize. If anything, bachelor's degrees are designed to prevent people from specializing too much too early. That's why they contain strict distribution requirements and have you take a bunch of survey courses. You are not allowed to just take classes in your chosen field because you are supposed to come out with a broad (though less in depth) general education.

More advanced degrees (which I am NOT suggesting everyone is obliged to take) are all about increasingly narrow specialization.

Engineering did both. I had certain requirements to fill for humanities and such, but my schedule was dominated by chemical engineering classes after freshman year. You get a deeper understanding if you get an advanced degree, but it's not necessary in those fields.

[Athens]

Originally posted by besson3c:
Here is a deceptively difficult question that I'm sure will cause some debate:

What exactly is the role of our high schools and higher-ed schools?

To teach our kids life skills, basic education, prep for college education. As well during school hours they are the babysitters of our children, and should also be the first line of intervention to abuse, or messed up kids.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Which is an illustration of how a bachelor's degree is not an education designed to help people specialize. If anything, bachelor's degrees are designed to prevent people from specializing too much too early. That's why they contain strict distribution requirements and have you take a bunch of survey courses. You are not allowed to just take classes in your chosen field because you are supposed to come out with a broad (though less in depth) general education.

More advanced degrees (which I am NOT suggesting everyone is obliged to take) are all about increasingly narrow specialization.

i agree with you as long as the career choice warrants it.

don't make it sound like higher education is not enough anymore. there are kids who are even less fortunate than I was out there with a even difficult financial road ahead of them.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
i agree with you as long as the career choice warrants it.

don't make it sound like higher education is not enough anymore. there are kids who are even less fortunate than I was out there with a even difficult financial road ahead of them.

Whether or not higher education is enough any more is a complicated issue. Probably my most successful friend has only a high school diploma. He's an entrepreneur and has been in business for himself since he was 17. He won't tell me how much he recently sold one of his businesses for, but he can retire whenever he wants to.

On the other hand if you are going to work for someone else, it is increasingly hard to get a foot in the door with only a high school diploma. That's why I went to college at age 28. In parts of the country (and in some fields), a bachelors degree is treated the way a high school diploma is supposed to be treated. In order to get even an entry level clerical job you have to have a 4 year degree of some sort. So to stay ahead, you kind of need a graduate degree even if you aren't doing something very specialized like law, medicine, etc.

That isn't yet the case in all of the country, or in all fields. Nor is it the case that formal qualifications mean anything in terms of general knowledge or common sense. The fact that advanced education gets progressively narrower can mean that people remain generally ignorant while being theoretically highly educated. On the other hand, another person can have no paper qualifications while being highly self educated. My mother was a good example of that. She left school at 14.

If you do need a formal education, there really are no financial reasons you can't get it. It doesn't matter how poor you are, you can finance it though financial aid or loans. Of course, it is better if you don't have to do that. But if you do, you can. Don't be one of those bitter people who assumes that everyone who gets an advanced degree was born with a silver spoon because most of us were not and have the school debt to prove it.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by lavar78:
Sadly, most kids resist thinking at every turn. What I wouldn't give to eliminate calculators from schools...

How exactly is performing arithmetic the same thing as "thinking"?

[typoon]

Originally posted by besson3c:
Republican, right? Your post screams Republican...

I disagree completely. I believe a teacher needs to do everything possible to engage students in learning critical thinking skills. If this requires throwing out a belief or even playing devil's advocate to jump-start a conversation, so be it. This is a far cry from requiring students to adopt your viewpoints or not entertaining opposing viewpoints - this is not a good environment for encouraging critical thinking.

Have you had an experience like this, or have you just read some stats about the democratic tendencies of professors and assumed that they must be brainwashing students with their own beliefs?

This sort of "solution" is overly simplistic and ineffective, much like pushing unconditional abstinence and telling kids that doing drugs are not cool. At a cursory glance, it sounds like this is logical and reasonable, but I believe this approach has been ineffective for years. I'd prefer proper education on this subject matter and getting students to use their brains based upon known facts rather than prudish puritanical beliefs or fear-mongering propaganda.

As for teaching students about interest rates and such, how dull! Why not kill two birds with one stone and teaching students how to think so that they can figure this out on their own? This subject matter is not difficult enough to warrant an entire class devoted to this, is it? Am I missing something?

It all comes back to critical thinking skills.

Mostly republican. I do agree that professors should allow critical thinking by students. I do also believe that it should be tempered discussion. Don't get me wront I don't thing it is wrong for a teacher to play Devil's advocate on an issue but when a teacher only expresses on side and not the other then it IS wrong IMO.

Yes I have had personal experiences with this several times while in High School and in college. In 9th grade I had a teacher tell us to find an article in a newspaper and write an opinion about it. She gave me a Grade NOT based on my paper but based more on my opinion that I had written on my paper that I was basically wrong. So yes Maybe an experience like that can jade someone a little bit.

You are right teach about interest rates and such IS and CAN be dull. It's up to the professor to make it interesting. There are ways to not make it dull for students. I also don't think you need a whole class for it but Professors could get maybe someone like a local business owner or someone to teach students certain things. Make some type of presentation about maybe what they did, how they did it. things like that. It doesn't have to be dull.

I'm all for getting students to think for themselves and for critical thinking unfortunately IMO I don't think it is happening as much as it should.

[besson3c]

Originally posted by Athens:
To teach our kids life skills, basic education, prep for college education. As well during school hours they are the babysitters of our children, and should also be the first line of intervention to abuse, or messed up kids.

So teachers need to take on some of the responsibilities of parents? They aren't really trained to do this (nor are they paid enough to take on 2 major jobs

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

Don't be one of those bitter people who assumes that everyone who gets an advanced degree was born with a silver spoon because most of us were not and have the school debt to prove it.

Ok, just don't be one of those snobby people who assumes everyone who gets an advanced degree is more qualified for life than those without.



I still disagree with you. I didn't pay 15,000 a year to learn how to research and to write clearly.

I learned how to be a professional in the field of my interest as well as developing solid skills in commmunication and other areas to ease myself into being a contributing citizen of society.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
Ok, just don't be one of those snobby people who assumes everyone who gets an advanced degree is more qualified for life than those without.

I don't, or at least, I try not to. Remember, I didn't have any degree at all until I got my AA when I was 30. At the age when most people already have degrees I was literally mopping floors and cleaning latrines in the Army. I try hard not to forget where I came from and treat others with respect regardless of what they do for a living.

About learning to research and write well, that should be a continuous process. There is never a point where you have finished learning those skills whether you are in school or not. But it is one of the main skills taught implicitly in higher ed, and in the long run, it is probably more useful in life than the explicit curriculum. If a person can't communicate or organize themselves, then what they know is wasted.

[Ghoser777]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
How exactly is performing arithmetic the same thing as "thinking"?

I've asked students to add 2 and 3 together, and they give me a blank stare until they are allowed to reach for their calculators. I mean, I can understand if they count on their fingers or in their head... but if they need a calculator to do that operation, save some type of disability, they are missing the concept of addition. Or at-least, they have not been able to link what they understand as addition (putting two groups of items together and counting the new number of items) with the mathematical operation of addition in an abstract context. I don't think adding 2+3 and getting 5 is the basis of thinking, but I find most kids don't even have a context to think within! They don't know how to look at what information is given, what they know, what they don't know, and how to come up with and try a potential strategy to find what they don't know, and then to finally check their answer to see if it makes sense both mathematically and intuitively. They also can't tell me what a given information means after an operation has been done on it (like adding two groups gives the number of items in both groups combined). It can be very frustrating... I only wish I know of a way to encourage them to think more, but it almost seems easier to tell them to use their calculators and tell them recipes as it makes them happier, and probably will improve their test scores

[lavar78]

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
I've asked students to add 2 and 3 together, and they give me a blank stare until they are allowed to reach for their calculators.

Tell me about it! While working with a 10th grader in algebra, I waited patiently while he plugged 0 minus 2 into his calculator. After he got the answer, I asked him why he didn't just do it in his head. His response? "It's easier on the calculator." My heart sank. In general, kids are more focused on getting the answer the easiest way possible (hence all the cheating) than learning how to actually find the answer. One of the things that leads to is a whole slew of high-school graduates who have trouble with simple things like multiplication. I can't count how many times kids have been awed by the fact I can do things like scientific notation in my head. They're completely lost without their crutch.