[Socially Awkward Solo]

"Not content to imitate Mac OS X Tiger, today Bill Gates unveiled that Longhorn is going to contain a giant rip-off of Delicious Library, as well!

I know this sounds like a joke, but check out the screenshots above from his keynote at WinHEC. Hey, if only there were some way that you could have an online catalog of books, movies, music, and videogames... and what if you displayed the full-size covers of those items, and there was a search field to refine your choices, and a slider to zoom in and out, and you could buy an item with a single click? Yah. Someone should invent something like that."

http://www.wilshipley.com/blog/

[turtle777]

So they copied yet antother thing. Yawn.
That company is SO overfunded and SO under(brain)powered...

-t

[Randman]

Has M$ come up with one original idea other than the service pack? Really, why hasn't more mainstream media slammed the company for such ham-handed management and scuzzy dealings?

[Eug Wanker]

Hasn't stuff similar to that been around at MS for just about forever?

And anyways, the most blatant rip-off of recent times has been Dashboard. And no, those 1984 widgets don't quite cut it.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Hasn't stuff similar to that been around at MS for just about forever?

The basic idea has been around for ever, I think they are just pissy about the interface and "new" features.

[gururafiki]

I am not surprised. Microsoft has been "influenced" by Apple since day one, and I don't see them changing anytime soon.

[Eriamjh]

meh

[DarwinX]

Uggggh! Not to mention, have you seen the latest screen grabs of Longhorn. I was just viewing this slideshow today. Can it really be that ugly? Am I just picky?

http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow_viewe...o=1&i=1,00.asp

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by DarwinX

Uggggh! Not to mention, have you seen the latest screen grabs of Longhorn. I was just viewing this slideshow today. Can it really be that ugly? Am I just picky?

http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow_viewe...o=1&i=1,00.asp

Na you know the interface they add last minute will look just like tiger but blue.

[willed]

Originally Posted by DarwinX

Uggggh! Not to mention, have you seen the latest screen grabs of Longhorn. I was just viewing this slideshow today. Can it really be that ugly? Am I just picky?

http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow_viewe...o=1&i=1,00.asp

Wow. It looks like the aftermath of a car crash involving Win98, WinXp and Panther.

[sek929]

I gotta say If I were a PC using fool then I'd think Longhorn looked damn good.

But, alas, I am not...PUG FUGLY!! I dunno how they did it but they made blue as boring as beige.

(In the first image the control panel icon in the start menu looks taken directly from Win98. Early build?)

[DarwinX]

Originally Posted by sek929

(In the first image the control panel icon in the start menu looks taken directly from Win98. Early build?)

One would have to assume that the icon is in fact due to it being an early build, but wow does Longhorn look like crap. Dare we call that brushed metal?? I agree that they did make blue look bad too. Guess Steve was right about those photo copiers (in more ways than one).

[demograph68]

Tiger's GUI sucks too.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by demograph68

Tiger's GUI sucks too.

But it looks nice

[misnomer]

That blog makes no sense.

That media mania app is just an Avalon demo that a few of the developers from that team tossed together in a number of hours. The source will be available publicly to people playing with the current Avalon for Windows XP CTP. It's not even a real MS commercial application... it's just an example of a ClickOnce webapp, using Avalon, for purchasing entertainment online.

It's supposed to give developers an idea of how they might provide a more exciting, alternative UI for their webstore (for Longhorn and XP users w/ Avalon).

[gururafiki]

Originally Posted by DarwinX

Uggggh! Not to mention, have you seen the latest screen grabs of Longhorn. I was just viewing this slideshow today. Can it really be that ugly? Am I just picky?

http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow_viewe...o=1&i=1,00.asp

Wow, they really did get a lot of influence from OS X. Even the slider bar for icon size has been "reused". And the grey color scheme looks a lot like the brushed metal theme in OS X. And I thought it was just spotlight that was being ripped off!

bah. Still looks confusing as ever.

[chris e boy]

Not that im defending them or anything (love my mac just as much as anyone else here), but i watched some of the Bill Gates Keynote and the stuff in the screenshots is not going to be part of Longhorn.

The stuff in the screenshots was an example of how future webpages might look on Longhorn (complete with 3D effects and stuff). It looked really tacky and typical of MS. The example was of an imaginary music store. Microsoft could never come close to duplicating the usefulness of Delicious Library.

Just though id clear that up for you guys...

Onto other aspects of the keynote; Their search technology looking incredibly difficult to use, with loads of complicated options, keystrokes and naff looking icons; The UI is awful, looks like it was designed by a four year old. One of their major showpieces was something called "metro" which sounded exactly like PDF to me.

EDIT:

That media mania app is just an Avalon demo that a few of the developers from that team tossed together in a number of hours. The source will be available publicly to people playing with the current Avalon for Windows XP CTP. It's not even a real MS commercial application... it's just an example of a ClickOnce webapp, using Avalon, for purchasing entertainment online.

err... yeh, what that guy said.

[pliny]

Originally Posted by misnomer

That blog makes no sense.

That media mania app is just an Avalon demo that a few of the developers from that team tossed together in a number of hours. The source will be available publicly to people playing with the current Avalon for Windows XP CTP. It's not even a real MS commercial application... it's just an example of a ClickOnce webapp, using Avalon, for purchasing entertainment online.

It's supposed to give developers an idea of how they might provide a more exciting, alternative UI for their webstore (for Longhorn and XP users w/ Avalon).

So to show off this "operating system" that's vaporware and has been scaled back so much it should be called Dwarfhorn, they throw together something that other people came out with first and that looks like crap??

This should give people who use their stuff ALOT of confidence in whatever it is they are trying to do over there.

Hey I'm all for it�I think their software is not too good and the more stuff like this they do the more people see this.

[chris e boy]

This should give people who use their stuff ALOT of confidence in whatever it is they are trying to do over there

Yeh, even Paul Thurrott, Windows Worshipper extraordinaire said Longhorn "has the makings of a train wreck"

[itistoday]

Did anyone else notice that it seems Microsoft's version of the iTunes Music Store in those screenshots has the Beatles? It seems like they're really going to rub that in, and it really does hurt...

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by chris e boy

Yeh, even Paul Thurrott, Windows Worshipper extraordinaire said Longhorn "has the makings of a train wreck"

Where did he say that?

[Chris Grande]

They showed the "Media Mania" on a channel 9 video ( MSFTs Developer Blogs and Videos) its just using Amazons web services.

I watched the video yesterday and really nothing that amazing. Like previous posters have said over complicated interface. The one thing I did like was the ability to add your own metadata much easier then say tiger; what they showed of just dragging and dropping files onto keywords (kind of like iPhoto) was rather interesting.

[Eyenovation]

I say, take it as a compliment. What are you really going to do otherwise?

[Apple Pro Underwear]

am i the only one who thinks that "yeah, i get another good program FREE with the purchase of my OS"?

i know they are copying and apple does it too (sherlock/watson) but wouldn't you rather have it free with the OS than not?

[Rosyna]

This is a joke right? Delicious Library is nothing new. Furthermore DL is for owned, local content. The MS demo was for an online store. Completely different markets/paradigms. Finally, MS has been showing off this demo since 2003. Long before Delicious Library was released. If anything, it'd be more likely that Delicious Library is a poor copy of other software rather than the other way around.

[chris e boy]

Where did he say that?

In his blog of the ongoing windows hardware conference:

Paul Thurotts Wininfo

He doesnt seem too impressed with what hes seen...

[kugino]

i use DL and my wife loves it...but i don't see the resemblance. sure, longhorn will probably have half its features pilfered from tiger (conservative estimate...and the dock will be on the left and top instead of the right and bottom), but i think DL can feel comfortable...

[macintologist]

Apple Copies Ideas From Microsoft

Mac fanatics enjoy ranting about how Microsoft copies ideas from Apple and about how Apple is the "innovation department" for Microsoft. They are correct in saying that Microsoft copies ideas from Apple. However, the reverse is also true: Apple copies ideas from Microsoft. It is a 2-way street. Here are some examples:

-Sticky menus. Originally, if you clicked on a Mac menu, it appeared and then disappeared as soon as you released the mouse button. Microsoft had a better idea -- you can release the mouse button without the menu disappearing. From MacOS 8 forwards, Apple changed their menu behavior to match MS Windoze.
-Apples TextEdit program in MacOS X produces files in RTF format, a format developed by Microsoft.
-In MacOS X, next to the time there is a little sound icon, same as Windoze.
-The way that you sort columns in a file list has changed to the Windoze way -- instead of the ascending/descending triangle being in the right-top corner like MacOS 9, now in MacOS X it is actually on the column itself, like Windoze.
-Apple copied the idea of showing a little arrow on aliases/shortcuts.
-And the idea of arrow cursors with an extra symbol added, such as arrow and a plus sign (copy).
-A major idea that Apple borrowed from Microsoft is Context Menus.
-In MacOS X, when you move the mouse over the close box in the window titlebar, it shows an "X" for the close box, a dash for minimize, and a plus for maximize, just like MS Windoze.
-And then there is the Dock in MacOS X. It's a suspiciously similar idea to the Start/Task Bar in Windoze -- the things you have open listed horizontally on a bar across the bottom of the screen.
-MacOS X also has the "Computer" icon, like the "My Computer" in Windoze.
-MacOS X is shifting towards using file name extensions ("myfile.doc") instead of Mac type/creator codes.
-For a long time, MS Windows could update your clock for Daylight Savings Time automatically, whereas Mac users had to do it manually. Apple eventually realized that automatic updating was a good idea, and copied the idea.
-Apple noticed how well the .DLL (Dynamic Link Library) idea worked in Windoze so they copied the idea and produced their own version of it called a "Shared Library".
-Let's not forget the many hardware technologies that Apple borrows from the Wintel (x86 PC) world. For example, PCI, AGP, IDE/ATA/UDMA, USB, PC100/PC133 RAM, DDR RAM, etc.
-Also worth mentioning is that Apple copied GUI ideas from Xerox PARC.
-And this is not a complete list of copied ideas, but I cannot be bothered spending more time to make a comprehensive list.
So as you can see, if Microsoft is "guilty" of copying ideas, Apple is also "guilty" of the same "crime" and thus Mac fanatics are being hypocritical. However, it is not a crime, nor is it illegal. There is nothing wrong with Apple copying ideas from the Wintel (x86 PC) world. Companies copy ideas all the time and it encourages competition, technological progress, and improved products, all of which benefit the consumer and society.

My point is that Mac computers incorporate many Wintel technologies and ideas, and really one has to admit that both the Mac and Wintel worlds have helped each other to improve. As one Haxial user put it, "It doesn't matter who did what first and it doesn't matter which OS is 'better' because it's just a matter of opinion. Companies swap ideas, it's about improving their products, it's not a test."

Some Mac users have written to me to say that Microsoft copied some of the above ideas from other sources. So Apple copied ideas from Microsoft who copied ideas from some other company. I really do not care, that is irrelevant! They are missing the point. I repeat: It is hypocritical for Mac fanatics to complain about Microsoft copying ideas because Apple does the same thing.

[Photo678]

Very well said...thank you

[pliny]

There are many errors in that list.

If i had the time/inclination maybe I would go through them one by one.

[RonnieoftheRose]

Yeah DLLs rule.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by macintologist

Apple Copies Ideas From MicrosoftHere are some examples:

-Sticky menus. Originally, if you clicked on a Mac menu, it appeared and then disappeared as soon as you released the mouse button. Microsoft had a better idea -- you can release the mouse button without the menu disappearing. From MacOS 8 forwards, Apple changed their menu behavior to match MS Windoze.

twm

-In MacOS X, next to the time there is a little sound icon, same as Windoze.

?

-A major idea that Apple borrowed from Microsoft is Context Menus.

twm

-In MacOS X, when you move the mouse over the close box in the window titlebar, it shows an "X" for the close box, a dash for minimize, and a plus for maximize, just like MS Windoze.

NeXTSTeP

-And then there is the Dock in MacOS X. It's a suspiciously similar idea to the Start/Task Bar in Windoze -- the things you have open listed horizontally on a bar across the bottom of the screen.

NeXTSTeP (come on, you know better than this)

-MacOS X also has the "Computer" icon, like the "My Computer" in Windoze.

NeXTSTeP

-MacOS X is shifting towards using file name extensions ("myfile.doc") instead of Mac type/creator codes.

CP/M

-For a long time, MS Windows could update your clock for Daylight Savings Time automatically, whereas Mac users had to do it manually. Apple eventually realized that automatic updating was a good idea, and copied the idea.

Shareware

-Apple noticed how well the .DLL (Dynamic Link Library) idea worked in Windoze so they copied the idea and produced their own version of it called a "Shared Library".

First, "how well the .dll idea worked in Windoze"

Second, UNIX has .dylibs

-Let's not forget the many hardware technologies that Apple borrows from the Wintel (x86 PC) world. For example, PCI, AGP, IDE/ATA/UDMA, USB, PC100/PC133 RAM, DDR RAM, etc.

Wha? I thought this was about Apple copying Microsoft. MS invented none of those. Using standard hardware so different computers can interoperate is a bad thing?

-Also worth mentioning is that Apple copied GUI ideas from Xerox PARC.

argh

-And this is not a complete list of copied ideas, but I cannot be bothered spending more time to make a comprehensive list.

It's over-complete, because most of the items are spurious.

[THE MAC GOD]

That's sad... not so much a blatant ripoff as I was expecting... but Delicious Library is my favorite Mac app... period... and something needs to be done!

[ironknee]

i like the blog's title, "Longhorn: Today's technology, tomorrow!"

[klinux]

Originally Posted by turtle777

So they copied yet antother thing. Yawn.
That company is SO overfunded and SO under(brain)powered...

-t

Yawn. Another zealot's kneejerk reaction. I looked at both software and I would hardly call it a copy. Yet the author writes that "I'm amazed, yet appalled." It looks like he is easily influenced. I can hardly wait to tell him about Santa Claus.

And regarding under(brain)powered, trutle777, why don't you try to see if you can get hired at Microsoft? If you get hired, you can either 1) quit because you refuse to work at the Evil Empire and come here to gloat or 2) start working at Microsoft, make some real changes, and come here to gloat. Either option is more substantial than sniping cowardly on a Mac board.

[goMac]

This sounds like a kneejerk reaction:

a) It is simply a demo
b) It looks nothing like Delicious Library
c) Computer cataloging programs have been around forever
d) It's simply a frontend for Amazon

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally Posted by macintologist

Mac fanatics enjoy ranting about how Microsoft copies ideas from Apple and about how Apple is the "innovation department" for Microsoft. They are correct in saying that Microsoft copies ideas from Apple. However, the reverse is also true: Apple copies ideas from Microsoft. It is a 2-way street. Here are some examples:

some of those things you listed IMo is Apple including some good features offered by the most popular OS. the most popular OS sets the standard.

sort of like a car having 4 doors. nobody after the standard goes with 3 doors or 6 doors, they stick with 4 because the most popular maker does it and the potential customers have adopted it. Yes, it's still copying but it's of a lesser nature.

[DeathMan]

Originally Posted by macintologist

Apple Copies Ideas From Microsoft

-Sticky menus. Originally, if you clicked on a Mac menu, it appeared and then disappeared as soon as you released the mouse button. Microsoft had a better idea -- you can release the mouse button without the menu disappearing. From MacOS 8 forwards, Apple changed their menu behavior to match MS Windoze.

This, I believe is more about bringing people over, or making switchers feel more comfortable than copying a better feature. It was a long time before I even knew that you could have sticky menues. Now I use them sometimes, but still not even most of the time. I don't consider one way better than the other.

-Apples TextEdit program in MacOS X produces files in RTF format, a format developed by Microsoft.

Because Microsoft developed something, that makes it copied? RTF is an open format. Don't be stupid.
[quote]
-The way that you sort columns in a file list has changed to the Windoze way -- instead of the ascending/descending triangle being in the right-top corner like MacOS 9, now in MacOS X it is actually on the column itself, like Windoze.
/quote]
I don't know what this is supposed to mean

-Apple copied the idea of showing a little arrow on aliases/shortcuts.

You got us there. Its about even now. Windows is a bad copy of the Mac OS interface, and the Mac stole the little arrow off the shortcut. Again, I think this was something for windows users to understand things. I never had trouble knowing what was an alias and what wasn't. (italic text)

-And the idea of arrow cursors with an extra symbol added, such as arrow and a plus sign (copy).

If microsoft invented this, kudos, cause its a great feature. I'm willing to bet however, that it was adobe. (changing the cursor to to give feedback as to the behavior of the action)

-A major idea that Apple borrowed from Microsoft is Context Menus.

a UI crutch, but it comes in handy.

-MacOS X also has the "Computer" icon, like the "My Computer" in Windoze.

They also let you turn it off (which I have). Can you do that in windows?

-MacOS X is shifting towards using file name extensions ("myfile.doc") instead of Mac type/creator codes.

Interoperability

-For a long time, MS Windows could update your clock for Daylight Savings Time automatically, whereas Mac users had to do it manually. Apple eventually realized that automatic updating was a good idea, and copied the idea.

a true innovation


This list is crap. The only real improvements are Contextual menus (a dangerous innovation for user interface) and The little Arrow on shortcuts (which sometimes bug me cause they change the appearance of the icon) really only the contextual menu is really useful.

And maybe that thing about sorting, cause I wasn't sure what that even meant, but it could be the great innovation.

[nagha]

um, i do know one way Apple copied MS:

they saw how badly Explorer sucked and they rewrote the Finder in OS X so that it sucked just as bad.

na

[klinux]

Originally Posted by DeathMan

Because Microsoft developed something, that makes it copied? RTF is an open format. Don't be stupid.

Puhlease. 90% of any debates on this board is on technicality rather than actual real world significance so at the very least please get the technical facts right.

RTF is not open nor is it a format. It is developed by Microsoft, it is a specification, and one is not not allowed to modify it freely.

[DeathMan]

Originally Posted by klinux

Puhlease. 90% of any debates on this board is on technicality rather than actual real world significance so at the very least please get the technical facts right.

RTF is not open nor is it a format. It is developed by Microsoft, it is a specification, and one is not not allowed to modify it freely.

Excuse my misuse of technological terminology. Let me rephrase: RTF is a well known and widely used and documented specification. I'm not sure how a format differs from a standard, though. And instead of open, I should have said not purposely obfuscated into an actual obstacle even to its creators (like the .doc format).

Maybe to you there is a big difference between a specification, a document language, and a format, but to me (and anyone else who doesn't care about the difference between .gzip and .bzip) its all just formats.

[klinux]

Yeah, Linux, BSD, Solaris, OS X - all UNIX based, what's the difference?

It's fine if you choose to be simplistic and generalize. However, when you try to obfuscate and misrepesent (RTF = open) and then based your opinion on that ("Don't be stupid") - don't get mad at those who choose to be correct and stand their ground.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by klinux

Yeah, Linux, BSD, Solaris, OS X - all UNIX based, what's the difference?

It's fine if you choose to be simplistic and generalize. However, when you try to obfuscate and misrepesent (RTF = open) and then based your opinion on that ("Don't be stupid") - don't get mad at those who choose to be correct and stand their ground.

As long as we're hanging on nit-picky little details here, you used the word "based" in the past tense when it should have been in the present tense.

[DeathMan]

Originally Posted by klinux

Yeah, Linux, BSD, Solaris, OS X - all UNIX based, what's the difference?

It's fine if you choose to be simplistic and generalize. However, when you try to obfuscate and misrepesent (RTF = open) and then based your opinion on that ("Don't be stupid") - don't get mad at those who choose to be correct and stand their ground.

Despite what the OSS people think, the world does live and die by the distinction between GPL'd software and non GPL'd software. RTF is more "open" than say .doc, and that is the point I was making. The word "open" is not only for OSS. Maybe I should have qualified it a little better, but dang, nitpicky. I was most definitely not attempting to misrepresent.

So are you arguing against my point or my verbiage? Because I still want people to not be stupid and point to using a documented "specification" (not open!) as stealing ideas from MS.

[MrKlin]

Good one, Charles, I get your joke but since we are all being technical here, based is used as an adjective and not a transitive verb.

From dictionary.com

based
adj
1: being derived from (usually followed by `on' or `upon'); "a film based on a best-selling novel" 2: having a base; "firmly based ice" 3: having a basis; often used as combining terms; "a soundly based argument"; "well-founded suspicions" [syn: founded] 4: having a base of operations; "a company based in Atlanta" [syn:based(p)]


This message is

[ryaxnb]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Hasn't stuff similar to that been around at MS for just about forever?

And anyways, the most blatant rip-off of recent times has been Dashboard. And no, those 1984 widgets don't quite cut it.

http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/da...s_konfabulator

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by MrKlin

Good one, Charles, I get your joke but since we are all being technical here, based is used as an adjective and not a transitive verb.

Your opinion is based on that - adjective.
You based your opinion on that - transitive verb, with "opinion" being the object of the verb.

Now, let's look at the original post:

However, when you try to obfuscate and misrepesent (RTF = open) and then based your opinion on that ("Don't be stupid") - don't get mad at those who choose to be correct and stand their ground.

As you can see, "based" is quite clearly being used as a transitive verb here. Also, the conjunction "and" is being used to join the verb "try" with "based." If "based" were anything other than a verb, then you'd have a nonparallel construction, which would, oddly enough, be wrong.

But don't get mad at me for choosing to be correct and standing my ground!

[ryaxnb]

Originally Posted by DarwinX

Uggggh! Not to mention, have you seen the latest screen grabs of Longhorn. I was just viewing this slideshow today. Can it really be that ugly? Am I just picky?

http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow_viewe...o=1&i=1,00.asp

IT IS UGLY

[ryaxnb]

Originally Posted by nagha

um, i do know one way Apple copied MS:

they saw how badly Explorer sucked and they rewrote the Finder in OS X so that it sucked just as bad.

na

THE FINDER IS NOT AN INTERNET BROWSER. Windows explorer is!!!!!!???!?!??!?!?!?!?!? http://www.toastytech.com is extreme but there it is.