[iranfromthezoo]

Okay before anyone jumps down my throat...or harps I tried a search and went back in the threads 20 times and couldn't find anything relevant. So please don't eat me or my lunch!

I wanted to know what you guys thought of downloading music illegally? Is it wrong? Why is it wrong? Do you do it? Why do you do it?

I mean know some see this as open, shut or what not but seriously I am getting more mad about people downloading illegally. I know there is more important stuff there...I guess it just bothers me more because I actually make my living off of music sales (is this me being selfish in that point?)

I really just want to know what you honestly think about downloading music illegally.

(note to mods, if this gets out of hand please kill thread)

[besson3c]

I think we all have are areas of comfort, our own little justifications and such, but I think one thing that people don't realize is that many people justify downloading tracks by taking the stance that they are opposed to musicians selling the same product over and over again and that they should make their money from live performances. Many of these same sorts of people don't go out and hear live music because it is too expensive, they are too busy, it is too inconvenient, etc.

So, consequently, many musicians are affected by these sorts of justifications, and I'm not even convinced that people are aware of what they are doing.

Would you be happy if the only live or recorded music available was whatever the major record labels (3 or 4 of them, I've lost track) have determined is the most profitable for them?

[mac128k-1984]

I think its wrong and I don't do it.

Some people view morality by popularity, i.e., everybody is doing it so it must be ok.
Some people view morality by justifying the need because they cannot obtain the music (or software) any other way, i.e., no money
and others just do it because they choose to w/o any major justification

[bstone]

I use the iTunes Music Store. Is that illegal?

[Ghoser777]

The only music I ever get by less than honest means have been ones that aren't in the iTunes music store - if I see it up there later, I'll buy it.

[]

Originally Posted by bstone

I use the iTunes Music Store. Is that illegal?

The iTunes Music Store is very legal. Any service that you pay for is most likely legal

[hickey]

I download music via torrent sites. But I really do feel guilty sometimes, because most of the music I listen to is smaller bands that dont make huge bankrolls.

[toledo79]

What if it's obscure, hard to find stuff? should i feel guilty?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by hickey

I download music via torrent sites. But I really do feel guilty sometimes, because most of the music I listen to is smaller bands that dont make huge bankrolls.

So then why do you do it?

[ghporter]

I have very poor "skilz" in terms of finding pirate music online. Just as well, as I'd feel bad about it. It is wrong, and not for any of the reasons the RIAA wants you to believe. It's wrong because taking something that is being sold without paying for it is called "stealing." I don't care about how many gold-plated Hummers or diamond studded swimming pools the artists have, it's still WRONG.

I do haunt places that sell used CDs, though. I finally found a copy of Chess the other day! No way to find that online that I've found. The difference between buying used CDs and downloading illegal copies of the same music is that there's only ONE CD (OK, there's as many as are in the album, but you get the point) and it's only going one place, while downloads are innumerable and go everywhere.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by 

Any service that you pay for is most likely legal

Yeah, LOL, AllofMP3, right ?

-t

[D. S. Troyer]

Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo

I wanted to know what you guys thought of downloading music illegally?

(Kanader eh.)

[rickey939]

And yes, I bought the song.

[Wiskedjak]

It is wrong. I "illegally" (technically, it's not illegal in Canada) downloaded a tonne of stuff during the Napster days, but only a handful since then. Generally, I find most of the stuff that's available for illegal download to not be worth the time it takes to steal it.

[kick52]

i find it annoying that limewire (the gnutella network, i think) was deliberatly put up to illegaly share music, and everyone knows that it is used for that and other illegal/bad things (child porn and stuff) and it isnt shut down.

[reader50]

When reading the thread title, I wondered what "illegal music" is, and why people might want to download any. Perhaps music that has dangerous volume levels that exceed safety limits? Or ones that put people to sleep, and therefore cause road accidents.

Here is an idea for a thread derail. What music should be illegal? Specific nominitions that come to mind.

[Jawbone54]

I don't feel comfortable walking into a store, stuffing a CD into my coat, and walking out. Therefore I don't feel comfortable downloading songs for free that I didn't pay for.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

I don't feel comfortable walking into a store, stuffing a CD into my coat, and walking out. Therefore I don't feel comfortable downloading songs for free that I didn't pay for.

-t

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by 

The iTunes Music Store is very legal. Any service that you pay for is most likely legal

Whew. I feel much better about paying that guy to make me a passport and social security card.

[hyteckit]

I don't feel confortable stealing wifi from my neighbors. That's equivalent to downloading music without paying you know.

[Allenzi35]

I dont feel bad for downloading music for free. I feel like I have been ripped off for years buying music for $15 to $20 a cd only to be dissapointed with it and NOT being able to return it. You can buy just about any other product on the market and return it if your not happy with it but you cannot return music. I have alot of cd's that have one or two good songs on them but the rest of the cd is trash. Before anyone starts with the whole "you can't return it because then everyone could just copy and return" or "you could preview the album on itunes before you buy" I'm talking about the hundreds of cd's that I bought my high school years (before everyone had a computer or even knew what cd burners were). The tables have turned.

Also, alot of people cry about lost sales and whatnot but what makes you think that I would have actually BOUGHT the music that I downloaded for free if it wasn't available for free? No one has lost any sales from me because if that music was never available for free download then I just simply would not have it. So no lost sales from me. So no, I don't feel bad about not paying for music and occationally I will purchase a cd that I feel is worth the money AFTER I have downloaded it for free. If it wasn't available for free D/L I would never take a chance for fear of being ripped off. I know alot of ppl will dissagre and try to flame but so what, from what I see, Brittney, Jay-Z, and (insert popular artists name here) do not look like they are starving to me.

[SirCastor]

I gave up illegally downloading music a quite sometime ago. I'm glad of it, as I didn't feel very good about it (but i guess I was more interested in the music than I was the morality of it.)

In some ways I'm glad it's happened because it's finally forcing the entertainment industry to realize that they can't screw the public over forever. Their model was only going to last so long, that time is up and now, because of their treatment of the consumer, they're eating it. Again though, I don't think it's right. Perhaps it would be different if they set fair prices, or if their artists were being given a good portion of the sales proceeds. But from what I understand, the only people who are raking in the dough are the people that have little/nothing to do with the actual making of music.

</rant>

[Goldfinger]

I download. And I don't feel guilty about it. I'm not paying +20 euros for a CD. Never. I used to buy tons of CDs, I have about 450 CDs but I just stopped buying them because the prices were getting insane.

[Andy8]

I would LOVE to be able to download music legally from iTMS (hint hint Apple) - but there is no legal service in Asia (excluding Japan and Australia). So I listen to the radio (online) or buy CD's.

[red rocket]

When I was younger, almost everybody used to lend their CDs and LPs to one another. The people who didn't own the originals made copies for themselves on tape or MiniDisc, and nobody thought there was anything wrong with it.

People also used to record songs off the radio, and nobody thought there was anything wrong with it, at least until some disc jockeys got pressured into interrupting the music, and then those stations lost a lot of listeners.

It's not like the artists were bitching about the fact that people were listening to their music on the radio without paying for the pleasure. If people like the music sufficiently, they'll still buy it in some physical format or other, I believe. That's what I do, anyway.

[kick52]

Originally Posted by reader50

When reading the thread title, I wondered what "illegal music" is, and why people might want to download any. Perhaps music that has dangerous volume levels that exceed safety limits? Or ones that put people to sleep, and therefore cause road accidents.

Here is an idea for a thread derail. What music should be illegal? Specific nominitions that come to mind.

like messages that have subliminal messages that made you smoke crack. *COUGH COUGH Another one bite the dust COUGH backwards COUGH COUGH*

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Allenzi35

I dont feel bad for downloading music for free. I feel like I have been ripped off for years buying music for $15 to $20 a cd only to be dissapointed with it and NOT being able to return it. You can buy just about any other product on the market and return it if your not happy with it but you cannot return music. I have alot of cd's that have one or two good songs on them but the rest of the cd is trash. Before anyone starts with the whole "you can't return it because then everyone could just copy and return" or "you could preview the album on itunes before you buy" I'm talking about the hundreds of cd's that I bought my high school years (before everyone had a computer or even knew what cd burners were). The tables have turned.

Also, alot of people cry about lost sales and whatnot but what makes you think that I would have actually BOUGHT the music that I downloaded for free if it wasn't available for free? No one has lost any sales from me because if that music was never available for free download then I just simply would not have it. So no lost sales from me. So no, I don't feel bad about not paying for music and occationally I will purchase a cd that I feel is worth the money AFTER I have downloaded it for free. If it wasn't available for free D/L I would never take a chance for fear of being ripped off. I know alot of ppl will dissagre and try to flame but so what, from what I see, Brittney, Jay-Z, and (insert popular artists name here) do not look like they are starving to me.

What if one is interested in music not put out by Brittney or Jay-Z?

Not everything in this world comes with a return policy just because you don't like the product. Some products/companies include a restocking fee. Some don't have a return policy at all. This is why you carefully research what it is you are buying.

If you can't find anything worth listening to beyond a couple of tracks on a CD, stop buying that crap. You are being exploited by the record companies who quite possibly do this intentionally. Expand your musical horizons, there is a lot out there that doesn't suck.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by red rocket

When I was younger, almost everybody used to lend their CDs and LPs to one another. The people who didn't own the originals made copies for themselves on tape or MiniDisc, and nobody thought there was anything wrong with it.

People also used to record songs off the radio, and nobody thought there was anything wrong with it, at least until some disc jockeys got pressured into interrupting the music, and then those stations lost a lot of listeners.

It's not like the artists were bitching about the fact that people were listening to their music on the radio without paying for the pleasure. If people like the music sufficiently, they'll still buy it in some physical format or other, I believe. That's what I do, anyway.

"Sharing" has been going on for ages, and people try to legally apply the same argument to file sharing - that putting your music on Gnutella (or whatever the latest and greatest P2P is now) is no different than lending your buddy a CD.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

I download. And I don't feel guilty about it. I'm not paying +20 euros for a CD. Never. I used to buy tons of CDs, I have about 450 CDs but I just stopped buying them because the prices were getting insane.

For some artists, it is difficult to recoup the costs involved in producing a CD of the quality the general public expects. Would you feel better about paying this kind of money if you knew that your artist really needed your money?

[Chuckit]

I'm a big music downloader. Probably 90 percent of the stuff in my iTunes library were downloaded from some illegitimate place or another. If the artist actually turns out to be any good, I'll buy the album (it's usually better quality than the rips you find). It's way too expensive just to buy stuff in hopes that it doesn't suck, though. And I listen to a lot of Japanese and Korean pop music, which is even more expensive since it has to be imported.

So yeah, for illegal music downloads. It's like shareware for the ear.

[mitchell_pgh]

It's wrong, it's breaking copyright, I don't do it (anymore).

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by besson3c

For some artists, it is difficult to recoup the costs involved in producing a CD of the quality the general public expects. Would you feel better about paying this kind of money if you knew that your artist really needed your money?

I don't really like most independent small artists. They wouldn't get my money anyway. I like big names from the beatles, stones, pink floyd to nelly furtado to Peter Gabriel heck I even like Lil' Kim (in short: I listen to all kinds of music) All of these have more than enough money. And most a sizeable chunck of the money you pay for a CD doesn't even go to them so meh. I'm not paying. I can't imagine that it's defficult to recoup the costs for most big name artists that I like.

Originally Posted by besson3c

If you can't find anything worth listening to beyond a couple of tracks on a CD, stop buying that crap. You are being exploited by the record companies who quite possibly do this intentionally. Expand your musical horizons, there is a lot out there that doesn't suck.

I don't get this argument. It sounds like you want people to change their taste in music. Just because you don't want to buy from the big record companies. Unforunately most of the world's music is sold by big record companies. And tbh, a LOT of "independent" music absolutely sucks. I've tried and listened to a lot of things and there aren't many small/independent bands/singers I really like (I do infact own the CDs of small bands that I like).
If P2P wasn't there I wouldn't even know all the independent artists I've listened to in my life. I'm not going to spend €20 just to try out a CD. A nor will most people.

If CD prices get to DVD price level (€10 or less) I'll buy them. The thing is that CD prices stay the same while DVD prices come down after a while. I can understand that the release price is high so you can make a ton of money on the "early adopters" but after that the price should come down. And that's rarely the case.

[jckalen]

I will pay for anything I don't already own. But I make an exception... I'm a bit older (pushing 40 ) and over the years, I amassed hundreds of legally purchased LP's and cassettes (and even a few 8 tracks). I don't feel at all guilty if I download an "illegal" version of something I already legally own strictly because it is a different media.

It would certainly be a hassle if I ever got picked up for it, but I can still produce the albums, tapes, etc in question, if not the receipts. And if I DID get fined or something, it would probably be less expensive than going out and re-purchasing thousands upon thousands of songs via itunes or hundreds of CD's.

[©öñFü$íóÑ]

Sure it's relatively hard to tell which media is legal or illegal to download and keep these days... especially when you have 'indie' music mixed in with other 'commercial' and 'record company' music on the P2P networks.

But only you would know if what you want (or are about to download) is going to be illegally obtained and stored. Or even if you don't know if it is or isn't illegal you should ask yourself the following:

"What does your conscience (or the voice within you) tell you?"
"If you can't do the time nor can't pay the fine, then don't do the crime."
"Does it 'feel' like the right thing to do?"
"What does common sense say?"
"Are you asking for trouble?"
"Do you have any morals?"
"Is it worth it?"

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

(in short: I listen to all kinds of music)

Doesn't sound like it. If you eliminate bands/artists because they aren't big-name, you eliminate most of them. Plus, most bands/artists start small; did you like them only after they became big?

[Dakar]

He's talking genres, not artists.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

I don't really like most independent small artists. They wouldn't get my money anyway. I like big names from the beatles, stones, pink floyd to nelly furtado to Peter Gabriel heck I even like Lil' Kim (in short: I listen to all kinds of music) All of these have more than enough money. And most a sizeable chunck of the money you pay for a CD doesn't even go to them so meh. I'm not paying. I can't imagine that it's defficult to recoup the costs for most big name artists that I like.


I don't get this argument. It sounds like you want people to change their taste in music. Just because you don't want to buy from the big record companies. Unforunately most of the world's music is sold by big record companies. And tbh, a LOT of "independent" music absolutely sucks. I've tried and listened to a lot of things and there aren't many small/independent bands/singers I really like (I do infact own the CDs of small bands that I like).
If P2P wasn't there I wouldn't even know all the independent artists I've listened to in my life. I'm not going to spend €20 just to try out a CD. A nor will most people.

If CD prices get to DVD price level (€10 or less) I'll buy them. The thing is that CD prices stay the same while DVD prices come down after a while. I can understand that the release price is high so you can make a ton of money on the "early adopters" but after that the price should come down. And that's rarely the case.

Perhaps I'm just being a little snooty, since my collection is largely comprised of Classical and Jazz recordings. Within this genre, certainly some is controlled by the larger record companies, but a great deal is also controlled by smaller independent labels. The latter is what I try to make a conscious effort to support.

I think we will start to see some of the bigger players move away from the major record labels over time too, at least the more established and sought after artists in the game, not the 1 or 2 hit wonders.

[besson3c]

All I ask of illegal downloaders is to carefully consider what you do and have a well thought out rationale. My problem is with people who download completely oblivious to the damage being caused (under the belief that all music is freely available like running water), or where convenience trumps all.

[Andy8]

No one forces you to buy music, you can always listen to the radio. It is free and legal!

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Andy8

No one forces you to buy music, you can always listen to the radio. It is free and legal!

No wonder it sucks.

[Allenzi35]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

I don't really like most independent small artists. They wouldn't get my money anyway. I like big names from the beatles, stones, pink floyd to nelly furtado to Peter Gabriel heck I even like Lil' Kim (in short: I listen to all kinds of music) All of these have more than enough money. And most a sizeable chunck of the money you pay for a CD doesn't even go to them so meh. I'm not paying. I can't imagine that it's defficult to recoup the costs for most big name artists that I like.


I don't get this argument. It sounds like you want people to change their taste in music. Just because you don't want to buy from the big record companies. Unforunately most of the world's music is sold by big record companies. And tbh, a LOT of "independent" music absolutely sucks. I've tried and listened to a lot of things and there aren't many small/independent bands/singers I really like (I do infact own the CDs of small bands that I like).
If P2P wasn't there I wouldn't even know all the independent artists I've listened to in my life. I'm not going to spend €20 just to try out a CD. A nor will most people.

If CD prices get to DVD price level (€10 or less) I'll buy them. The thing is that CD prices stay the same while DVD prices come down after a while. I can understand that the release price is high so you can make a ton of money on the "early adopters" but after that the price should come down. And that's rarely the case.

co-sign

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Dakar

No wonder it sucks.

Quoted for truth.

[Andy8]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Quoted for truth.

If you want quality, then pay for it!

[Chuckit]

Paying is no guarantee of quality.

[Andy8]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Paying is no guarantee of quality.

Stealing music certainly does not!

[Chuckit]

I never said, "If you want quality, just steal for it!"

[Monique]

By downloading musics, movies and other stuff, you steal from the artists. They do not get paid for it; so it is stealing. It seems to be so prevalent in the new generation between 10 and 40. You do not seem to care what happen to other people, that they worked very hard to achieve something; but in your heads it is ok to steal. I guess you do not see the face of the person you are stealing from so it makes it ok to you.

When I was in London, I went to see the Phantom of the Opera and some Asian girl was recording it on her little camera; I realized it during the intermission (interval) and told her that if she did not stop I would call the police on her; she stopped doing it. But, how many people think it is ok to steal like that and do not have any remorse, I guess people with non conscience.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Dakar

He's talking genres, not artists.

What difference does that make?

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I'm a big music downloader. Probably 90 percent of the stuff in my iTunes library were downloaded from some illegitimate place or another. If the artist actually turns out to be any good, I'll buy the album (it's usually better quality than the rips you find). It's way too expensive just to buy stuff in hopes that it doesn't suck, though. And I listen to a lot of Japanese and Korean pop music, which is even more expensive since it has to be imported.

So yeah, for illegal music downloads. It's like shareware for the ear.

What he said. Information wants to be free man!

[starman]

It's wrong, but....

Back in the Napster days, I was finding TONS of singles that I couldn't find anywhere, or were hard to find. What's WRONG is that the current model of having to pay $10-$12 for a whole f'n album just for ONE SONG is stupid. Using Napster was my way of getting back at the recording industry and finding copies of stuf from vinyl that I already owned but didn't transfer myself. (ooh, REBEL!). Since then, my collection from what I found on Napster has shrunken and I eventually found a lot of those songs on CDs I was willing to pay for (like compilations and such).

But things are still elusive. I have yet to find the version of Pete Townshend's "Slit Skirts" that was used on MTV, and it's been what, 22 years?

A note: I never once downloaded a whole album and not paid for it. I work like this: if I want something, I want the chance of AT LEAST skimming it first before I buy it unless I know what it is. I'll buy CDs blind like the new Maiden album, but if I hear a Wheezer song on the radio that I like, I might buy the CD and think the whole album sucks. I'd think it's fair to give me the chance of deciding if I like something, right? You can do it with pretty much anything...even women buy a dress to wear to a party and take it back the next day . Now, the iTMS lets you check songs, but it doesn't let you do listen to the part you might want to hear (for example, there are version of songs that differ and I want to listen to a specific part to tell which one I'm buying).

Another example: I discovered a Jarre song I never owned (GASP!) so I downloaded it to make sure that the import I found on eBay was the right one. It was, and I IMMEDIATELY paid for the CD after I verified that the version I downloaded was the one I wanted and paid for.

The record comapany really has to get out of this bullsh*t archaic model of selling plastic discs as the only way to make money. They could make a lot more money from people if they just gave them more choices.

On the other hand, my nephew downloads a ton of crap for free. Now, when I was his age I worked my ass off and bought at least one vinyl album a week, but I still copied albums from people but ONLY if I was unsure of whether I'd like the album.