[The Godfather]

I am 90% certain that Microsoft will not have VPC for Intel Macs this year. Historically, they have sat on their butts for as long as they could, when it comes to VPC releases.

But according to this

Originally Posted by http://macwindows.com/

iEmulator to be the first to put x86-native Windows
on Intel Macs. January 12, 2006 -- Next month iEmulator.com will ship a new version iEmulator that will run Windows on the new Intel-based Macs. This will be the first piece of software to enable Windows to run on the Intel Macs.

In iEmulator 1.7.9, the x86 processor will no longer be emulated and will no longer translate between PowerPC and x86 instructions. A spokesperson for the developer told us that native access to the Intel processor will result in large performance gains for running Windows.

"Initial testing is going quite well, and the performance increase is stunning," said Richard Peters of iEmulator.com

Although the processor is now native, not all emulation is eliminated in this release. The PC BIOS, video hardware, and Ethernet card will still be emulated in version 1.7.9.

The 1.7.9 release will be a free upgrade to iEmulator owners.

Currently, there is now way to run Windows on the first-generation Intel Macs, making them less Windows-compatible than PowerPC Macs: x86 emulators won't run in Rosetta and the lack of a PC BIOS gives Windows no way to boot natively at this point in time.

(Yesterday we reported Microsoft's intention to port Virtual PC to the Intel Mac.)

And this
http://qemu.org/qemu-accel.html

And this
http://m2.dad-answers.com/qemu-forum...opic.php?t=594

iEmulator may be the only virtualized PC for the Mac starting next month. I wouldn't be surprised if Guest PC would follow shortly.

The x86 transition is a great opportunity for them because the VPC leverage (fast PPC-x86 emulation) is now gone. I would start writing that 25 dollar check if I had an Intel Mac.

[JoshuaZ]

Hmmm.... but will it be able to play horrible PC games?

[Y3a]

Cool! Will I be able to continue collecting viruses and spybots within my XP environment?

[olePigeon]

Mmm. Counter-Strike and Civ IV.

[harrisjamieh]

The WinTel app promises to be made to work with x86 macs, at near native speed

http://openosx.com/wintel/

[greenamp]

All these emulator app guys are gonna be sore if somebody figures out how to dual boot OS X / Windows on an Intel Mac.

[residentEvil]

Originally Posted by greenamp

All these emulator app guys are gonna be sore if somebody figures out how to dual boot OS X / Windows on an Intel Mac.

Why? these emulators allow you to run another OS inside your current one, appearing as an application. Dual boot means you can boot into one, do something, shutdown, reboot into the other one. NOT the same thing.

[Calimus]

Originally Posted by greenamp

All these emulator app guys are gonna be sore if somebody figures out how to dual boot OS X / Windows on an Intel Mac.

Not really. If you could have windows apps, and osx apps running side by side so you could copy and paste back and forth, and have them interact in other ways, then I could see some big advantages to a dual boot setup. Games on the other hand will always be best running natively in windows, but with the dual cores, I could perhaps see some tech where nearly a whole processor would be available for each os. Since most pc games don't use the dual cpus anyway, you would see the same performance in this case, or relatively close. It's exciting times for us mac users(especially the ones who miss our PC games)

[alex_kac]

Why? Many people don't want to dual boot. They want to boot up an emulator real quick in a window so they can keep using their Macs.

[King Bob On The Cob]

They can say all they want, but until someone gets QEMU and BOCHS running natively, don't count on it right off the bat.
(These companies just stick frontends on open source emulators, I can't give them credit because their frontends usually suck.)

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by residentEvil

Why? these emulators allow you to run another OS inside your current one, appearing as an application. Dual boot means you can boot into one, do something, shutdown, reboot into the other one. NOT the same thing.

If sometime down the road dual booting Windows on an x86 Mac becomes a trivial feat, why would there be any need to run a software Windows emulation app? There really isn't a a whole lot of things you would need to do in Windows which would require using it in emulation as a separate program, when you could just use Windows natively on your same computer by just rebooting. And no emulation software will run Windows at peak performance, at least not compared to the performance of running it natively.

Why is it now that Mac-Intels are out, people are acting like Windows is such a must have OS?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by greenamp

If sometime down the road dual booting Windows on an x86 Mac becomes a trivial feat, why would there be any need to run a software Windows emulation app? There really isn't a a whole lot of things you would need to do in Windows which would require using it in emulation as a separate program, when you could just use Windows natively on your same computer by just rebooting.

Because rebooting twice just to use one program is a pain in the ass. I would reverse the question. Unless they're running a super performance-heavy game, why would anyone want to reboot into a different OS when you could just launch a program?

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Because rebooting twice just to use one program is a pain in the ass. I would reverse the question. Unless they're running a super performance-heavy game, why would anyone want to reboot into a different OS when you could just launch a program?

What kind of program is such a necessity for you that you absolutely need Windows for? And if you do have an app that you must use on a consistent basis chances are you need it for much more than just a couple of clicks here and there right? And if you need that app so bad for so much chances are you would rather run it natively than in a slightly less snappy emulated version.

Not to mention an emulator with Windows would cost more than just Windows alone.

( again, this is all under the assumption that Windows could dual boot seamlessly on an x86 Mac )

[olePigeon]

I wouldn't dual boot. First of all, one thing that's nice about running Windows on top of OS X in a VM are things like drag-and-drop file copying, shared clipboards, saved states with instant boot, and not to mention a contained environment for Windows on the off chance that I get a virus or trojan. If that malicious software decides to format the HDD... who cares?

But if I dual (duel? hehe) boot Windows, if there's malicious code running on the Windows partition it can certainly affect my Mac partition.

Plus, when it comes to the annual reinstall of Windows, I just keep a base Windows install image on a DVD someplace. Copy it over, and I'm good to go real quick. Don't have to format/install that takes several hours.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by greenamp

What kind of program is such a necessity for you that you absolutely need Windows for? And if you do have an app that you must use on a consistent basis chances are you need it for much more than just a couple of clicks here and there right? And if you need that app so bad for so much chances are you would rather run it natively than in a slightly less snappy emulated version.

I can tell you of quite a few CAD designers who also have a Mac with Photoshop and Illustrator for doing custom textures and templates. They'd be in heaven if they could just have a Mac with their Adobe apps plus a VM running near native speeds using AutoDesk.

Not to mention Mac users who would really like to use AutoDesk, but are using something else just because they don't want to invest in a highend PC just to run a CAD program. They already payed $2500 for a nice Mac.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by greenamp

What kind of program is such a necessity for you that you absolutely need Windows for?

You need Windows for any program that will not run on Mac OS X but will run on Windows. For instance, many companies rely on GoldMine. It only runs on Windows. Therefore, they need Windows for that.

Originally Posted by greenamp

And if you do have an app that you must use on a consistent basis chances are you need it for much more than just a couple of clicks here and there right? And if you need that app so bad for so much chances are you would rather run it natively than in a slightly less snappy emulated version.

For many programs, the speed difference between running virtualized and running completely natively is completely negligible. And you're assuming that I only want to use that program.

Originally Posted by greenamp

Not to mention an emulator with Windows would cost more than just Windows alone.

( again, this is all under the assumption that Windows could dual boot seamlessly on an x86 Mac )

QEMU is free, and $25 for iEmulator is nothing for the convenience of not having to drop everything and switch to a different OS just to use one program.

Anyway, virtualizers already exist for Windows and Linux. VMware is not going out of business. So your argument that there isn't a market for such a thing is disproven by reality.

[Hugi]

I really look forward to being able to test my websites quickly on IE/Windows, as will most other web developers (IE in VPC on PowerPC sucks rather badly).

To the people that are trying to tell me I can just reboot my machine to test web sites on Windows: I appreciate the sentiment but really, why the fudge are you trying to tell me what I need?

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

You need Windows for any program that will not run on Mac OS X but will run on Windows. For instance, many companies rely on GoldMine. It only runs on Windows. Therefore, they need Windows for that.

Uhh thanks for stating the obvious. Any major company that needs Windows to run an application they rely on is not gonna consider switching to Macs and running Windows in emulation. Speedier windows emulation on x86 Macs is not going to change the IT face of the average business. Engineers aren't gonna suddenly trade in their dual Xeon dells for a Power Mac and run their cad software in emulation.

For many programs, the speed difference between running virtualized and running completely natively is completely negligible. And you're assuming that I only want to use that program.

You must have some super duper G5 prototype Mac because the performance slowdown in VPC on my dual G5 Power Mac is far from negligible. It's quite noticeable.

QEMU is free, and $25 for iEmulator is nothing for the convenience of not having to drop everything and switch to a different OS just to use one program.

Again, what program do you use, you specifically, that is so necessary, yet trivial enough at the same time, that would be so much more convenient for you in emulation as opposed to natively?
My point is, if you really really need Windows so bad chances are you need it for much more than just a copy and paste job here and there. And if all you need to do in Windows in a few clicky actions here and there, chances are you don't need Windows at all. You're just using it as a novelty.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by greenamp

You must have some super duper G5 prototype Mac because the performance slowdown in VPC on my dual G5 Power Mac is far from negligible. It's quite noticeable.

Uh, he was referring to virtualization - running an OS in a virtual machine - rather than running an OS in an emulated environment on a different processor architecture.

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Uh, he was referring to virtualization - running an OS in a virtual machine - rather than running an OS in an emulated environment on a different processor architecture.

Uh, and I'm referring to running Windows natively in a dual boot environment on an x86 Mac as opposed to running it via emulation software in OS X on an x86 Mac.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by greenamp

You must have some super duper G5 prototype Mac because the performance slowdown in VPC on my dual G5 Power Mac is far from negligible. It's quite noticeable.

You must not have read a single thing in this thread if you believe that's relevant. We're talking about running programs natively on the CPU in a virtualized environment, not emulating a whole PC in software. Virtual PC on a G5 is not comparable because it's not doing the same thing.

Originally Posted by greenamp

Again, what program do you use, you specifically, that is so necessary, yet trivial enough at the same time, that would be so much more convenient for you in emulation as opposed to natively?

Internet Explorer 6 to test Web pages, just like hugi.

Originally Posted by greenamp

My point is, if you really really need Windows so bad chances are you need it for much more than just a copy and paste job here and there. And if all you need to do in Windows in a few clicky actions here and there, chances are you don't need Windows at all. You're just using it as a novelty.

Even if I need it for more than a copy-and-paste job here and there, it's more convenient not to have to restart the computer anytime I want to switch programs.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by greenamp

Uh, and I'm referring to running Windows natively in a dual boot environment on an x86 Mac as opposed to running it via emulation software in OS X on an x86 Mac.

greenamp, are you high? ChuckIt was talking about a VM environment on Mactels, and you responded with a statement about VPC on the G5. That response was completely irrelevant to the conversation, but I'm glad you seemingly realize your error now.

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

greenamp, are you high? ChuckIt was talking about a VM environment on Mactels, and you responded with a statement about VPC on the G5. That response was completely irrelevant to the conversation, but I'm glad you seemingly realize your error now.

Are you even reading this thread at all?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by greenamp

Are you even reading this thread at all?

…this from the guy who randomly brings up a G5 emulator when we're talking about x86 virtualization programs?

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

You must not have read a single thing in this thread if you believe that's relevant. We're talking about running programs natively on the CPU in a virtualized environment, not emulating a whole PC in software. Virtual PC on a G5 is not comparable because it's not doing the same thing.

Neither of the apps in the original post of this thread state that they run Windows apps 100% virtualized in OS X. iEmulator says it comes close, but still has to emulate such things as the gpu, etc. It is still emulation. Any idea that these programs will allow you to open some Windows app like you would any other OS X app, without the sublayer of the emulated OS, is a misconception.

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

…this from the guy who randomly brings up a G5 emulator when we're talking about x86 virtualization programs?

I didn't randomly bring it up at all. I said it for a reason. Please catch up.

[The Godfather]

Engineers and other professionals invariably need Windows for work, but many of us like Macs and leave them at home. In my line of work, the only application that ties us to Windows is AutoCAD (no equivalents will work). If I could have iEmulator in the background with just AutoCAD in a new x86 PowerBook, I could actually use it to work and sell the PC.

I wouldn't mind one bit if the slowdown is 50%. A Duo is already twice as fast as needed for AutoCAD work.
Same goes for the compilers, logic synthesizers and PCB editors that I used in school until last year.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by greenamp

Neither of the apps in the original post of this thread state that they run Windows apps 100% virtualized in OS X. iEmulator says it comes close, but still has to emulate such things as the gpu, etc. It is still emulation. Any idea that these programs will allow you to open some Windows app like you would any other OS X app, without the sublayer of the emulated OS, is a misconception.

You're putting words into my mouth. It will require you to run Windows, yes, but it will run Windows at near-native speed (see the QEMU link). It is not comparable to Virtual PC for PPC.

I didn't randomly bring it up at all. I said it for a reason. Please catch up.

So what was your reason for bringing it up? It's not the same technology, so just because something is true of that program doesn't mean it would be true of a virtualizer. So why did you mention it?

[Hugi]

"Trivial" stuff I look forward to running at near-full speed alongside OS X (I am one of two Mac users at a 50 people company).

- Running Navision, our accounting software
- Use the software developed for our inhouse use (Windows delphi crap - up until now, I've had a separate PC running Windows for that)
- Using Cisco phone manager (for the IP-phone on my desk)
- Running MS Visual studio for dynamically testing consuming the Web Services I am developing in java on OS X.
- Testing the websites I create on IE/Win Opera/Win
- Running Outlook as my Exchange client (Entourage sucks as an Exchange client)
- Using Toad - a decent SQL development environment, of which OS X has none. I have up until now been running it on a separate Windows box.

And that's just off the top of my head. When you work in a mixed environment, having Windows running at near-full-speed in a window on your primary machine is infinitely useful.

And no, I really don't want to reboot each time I do any of those things.

[f1000]

Originally Posted by greenamp

There really isn't a a whole lot of things you would need to do in Windows which would require using it in emulation as a separate program, when you could just use Windows natively on your same computer by just rebooting.

^ Spoken like someone who's never had to use VPC for a mission critical app. I can't even begin to describe the loss of productivity that would result if I had to dual-boot into PC mode. The simple act of transferring a file from a Win app to an OS X app would become an exercise in tedium.

[The Godfather]

One thing is for sure. If Guest PC and iEmulator scrap their respective projects because "they are too stupid", then Pear PC will update their product and allow Tiger x86 running in a window under MSWindows. Then Apple will be really screwed.

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by The Godfather

Engineers and other professionals invariably need Windows for work, but many of us like Macs and leave them at home. In my line of work, the only application that ties us to Windows is AutoCAD (no equivalents will work). If I could have iEmulator in the background with just AutoCAD in a new x86 PowerBook, I could actually use it to work and sell the PC.

I wouldn't mind one bit if the slowdown is 50%. A Duo is already twice as fast as needed for AutoCAD work.
Same goes for the compilers, logic synthesizers and PCB editors that I used in school until last year.

That's not a very efficient way to work at all though. It may be suitable for you but I would imagine to many such a method would not be suitable.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by greenamp

That's not a very efficient way to work at all though. It may be suitable for you but I would imagine to many such a method would not be suitable.

So running a program in a virtualized environment is inefficient, but rebooting several dozen times a day is efficient. That's a new one.

[Brass]

Originally Posted by harrisjamieh

The WinTel app promises to be made to work with x86 macs, at near native speed

http://openosx.com/wintel/

Plus it's already available NOW ... and it's free.

May not have all the features, but now you don't NEED to run an expensive commercial application, or to reboot.

Anyone actually tried WinTel (ie, packaged Bochs) on an Intel Mac?

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

So running a program in a virtualized environment is inefficient, but rebooting several dozen times a day is efficient. That's a new one.

I like how you just randomly pick something I say and respond to it while ignoring the context in which it was written.

The reason I quoted Godfather is b/c I was responding to what he said specifically. He said that as an Engineer, he would gladly scrap his PC to run his Windows only cad program(s) via emulation on his future MacBook, even if the performance hit was as much as 50%.

k?

I stand by my original statement that if Windows can be dual booted on an x86 Mac seamlessly, doing such will be the more popular option.

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by greenamp

That's not a very efficient way to work at all though. It may be suitable for you but I would imagine to many such a method would not be suitable.

For numeric computations and simulations, yes, use Windows natively and get 100% performance. For AutoCAD and the rest of medium-powered apps, Virtualized is best.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by greenamp

I like how you just randomly pick something I say and respond to it while ignoring the context in which it was written.

The reason I quoted Godfather is b/c I was responding to what he said specifically. He said that as an Engineer, he would gladly scrap his PC to run his Windows only cad program(s) via emulation on his future MacBook, even if the performance hit was as much as 50%.

That would still be more efficient that rebooting every time he wanted to do something in another program. On a sufficiently fast computer, most of the time, the computer is waiting for your input. But if you are constantly rebooting, you are waiting on the computer instead. That is absolutely inefficient. So between the two options, if your computer is faster than you need to to be to run a given program, running the program in virtualization is a better option than rebooting.

[f1000]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

So running a program in a virtualized environment is inefficient, but rebooting several dozen times a day is efficient. That's a new one.

Try having to reboot several dozen times an hour. The whole idea is too retarded to even contemplate.

As others have noted above, there are a great many engineering and scientific programs that must be run from Windows. There are also quite a number of consumer and other professional apps that don't have Mac analogues. Dual-booting might be fine for some applications (especially for those that require maximum performance), but it's a no-go for multitasking between Mac and Windows apps.

[The Godfather]

So you are saying that both ways of running Windows are necessary?

[f1000]

Originally Posted by The Godfather

So you are saying that both ways of running Windows are necessary?

I'd say yes if there were significant performance advantages to dual-booting.

[Brass]

Originally Posted by greenamp

I like how you just randomly pick something I say and respond to it while ignoring the context in which it was written.

The reason I quoted Godfather is b/c I was responding to what he said specifically. He said that as an Engineer, he would gladly scrap his PC to run his Windows only cad program(s) via emulation on his future MacBook, even if the performance hit was as much as 50%.

k?

I stand by my original statement that if Windows can be dual booted on an x86 Mac seamlessly, doing such will be the more popular option.

I very much doubt it. I would certainly not dual boot if I could run a near-100% speed emulator (and the current crop, such as WinTel, is near 100% speed, and is free).

At the large organisation where I work, they are now using virtual machines to run Windows, even on DELL PCs! Why would people not do it on an Apple Intel Mac???

(The reason it is done on the DELLs is so that they can run multiple instances of Windows on 1 server, thereby running several virtual servers on one bit of hardware - yes, this is in production. They are using "VMWare", but there are other alternatives).

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Brass

I very much doubt it. I would certainly not dual boot if I could run a near-100% speed emulator (and the current crop, such as WinTel, is near 100% speed, and is free).

The OpenOSX repackaging of Bochs? I think you must have it confused with another program. WinTel is not near native speed and it not free.

[Brass]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

The OpenOSX repackaging of Bochs? I think you must have it confused with another program. WinTel is not near native speed and it not free.

Sorry, I got myself a bit confused... but I was not far off.

Bochs IS free. WinTel is a bundled distribution of Bochs which is NOT free.

However, I believe that the Mac OS X INTEL version of WinTel (and Bochs) is near native speed.
NB: I'm NOT talking about the PPC version. But I'd be interested to hear from anyone who's tried the INTEL version.

Having said all that, free Windows is available, via Bochs, for Mac OS X for Intel, at much greater speed than for PPC.

[besson3c]

Apps like VMWare (recent versions) use local resources such as video cards rather than emulating them. It will be only a matter of time before running virtualized Windows apps in OS X is pretty much indistinguishable from booting into Windows to run the same app.