[raskol]

Am I the only person on Earth who thinks that staring at a monitor is like staring at a light bulb? Why are we forced to read black text on a white background? This is so hard on the eyes. Working on a computer today is like reading book in direct sunlight! Emitted white light from a monitor is in no way like looking at print on paper.

I know this is because the Mac GUI was essentially originally for page layout but I do very little page layout! I know that I can change the colors in some applications but that doesn't really help. The Aqua interface is so bright that it's like staring at TV in a dark room.

Can someone please design a GUI that would allow me to change all my font and background colors so that I don't have to stare at light bulbs all day? Maybe make my OS and all applications look like Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio. Although I would prefer white fonts instead of black.

[voodoo]

Use the System preferances>Universal Access to invert your display. Presto! Black is white!

Butt ugly though.

[raskol]

Thanks for nothing. Typical response. Why do you waste my time? Is it a personal problem you have?

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by raskol:
Thanks for nothing. Typical response. Why do you waste my time? Is it a personal problem you have?

I think the question is what is YOUR problem?

He gave a completely reasonable and useful response.

What did you expect?

"oh, here you go, I designed a GUI just for you that should be perfect for your needs"

Yeah right...

EDIT: Question for you - what colour is most paper?

[pixelghetto]

Whoa, chill out. He offered a solution that he could. A 'thank you' would not go a miss.

[raskol]

Look I am not a newbie. I know I can do the universal access thing. That is not my point. My point was that the whole idea of black text on a white background is flawed. If you actually read my post instead of treating it like a problem report or a bug you would know what I am talking about.

Cipher your a tech. I don't need a tech I need a designer. Paper does not emit light it reflects light. You didn't understand my post. Do you know the difference between CMYK and RGB?

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by raskol:
Look I am not a newbie. I know I can do the universal access thing. That is not my point. My point was that the whole idea of black text on a white background is flawed. If you actually read my post instead of treating it like a problem report or a bug you would know what I am talking about.

Cipher your a tech. I don't need a tech I need a designer. Paper does not emit light it reflects is. Further proof you didn't read my post.

Still doesn't excuse bad manners, does it now?

White copy on black is insanely difficult to read, that's why. If the brightness bothers you, guess what? Turn it down until it does resemble reading from a piece of paper.

[pixelghetto]

Just your attitude probably turned anyone off from helping, and also this is the 'MacNN Lounge'. I am sure the question would have been better suited to another forum.

[raskol]

White copy? I am not printing it I am trying to read it on the monitor. It is easier to read at a UNIX terminal than it is on my web browser.

I don't have bad manners it is just that people don't really read for understanding they read with bias. I don't have a handicap.

[raskol]

I don't really need help. I guess I was just trying to voice an opinion that every application assumes that black text on a white background is the only way to do it.

I am sorry if I sounded like a jerk. I thought voodoo was being sarcastic.

[rjenkinson]

Originally posted by raskol:
I don't really need help. I guess I was just trying to voice an opinion that every application assumes that black text on a white background is the only way to do it.

black text on a white background is a good idea because it gives you the highest degree of contrast. it's easy to read.

the problem you outlined doesn't have to do with this issue of contrast directly: it's with how bad CRTs are on your eyes. turn down the brightness on your display if it's bothering you that much. another more expensive remedy for this is to switch to an LCD monitor.

-r.

[raskol]

You make my point wonderfully. Green on black is very easy to read.

White text on black background provides the same exact level of contrast as black text on white background.

If I turn down the brightness on my monitor, photos don't look correct. LCDs do not help. You are still stuck with too much glaring whiteness. Now Apple's products are all white too! What is this fascination? Racism?

You are all just apologizing for interface designer's lack of creativity.

[ShotgunEd]

Originally posted by raskol:
You make my point wonderfully. Green on black is very easy to read.

White text on black background provides the same exact level of contrast as black text on white background.

If I turn down the brightness on my monitor, photos don't look correct. LCDs do not help. You are still stuck with too much glaring whiteness. Now Apple's products are all white too! What is this fascination? Racism?

You are all just apologizing for interface designer's lack of creativity.

You could set up a custom style sheet in your browser so pages would be green text on black background by default. Just because you think something doesn't mean its right.
I'm not sure how the white on black thing arose in the beginning, it could be something to do with page layout i suppose.
The problem in your original post is that you said "Why are we forced to read black text on a white background?". We aren't forced, you can change it in various ways, the people who posted here thought it might be nice to point some of these out.

[rjenkinson]

Originally posted by raskol:
You make my point wonderfully. Green on black is very easy to read.

White text on black background provides the same exact level of contrast as black text on white background.

well, no. you're wrong. green on black does not provide the same degree of contrast as black on white (higher contrast means easier to read). but white on black makes edges hard to read.

-r.

[Mark Tungston]

Originally posted by raskol:
You make my point wonderfully. Green on black is very easy to read.

White text on black background provides the same exact level of contrast as black text on white background.

If I turn down the brightness on my monitor, photos don't look correct. LCDs do not help. You are still stuck with too much glaring whiteness. Now Apple's products are all white too! What is this fascination? Racism?

You are all just apologizing for interface designer's lack of creativity.

tech wise - a lcd on laptop would use a lit more energy using a dark gui than a light one

printing screen shots - would use a lot of ink

contrast - rjenkinson is correct and gui is like it is mainly because of what he said. also think about acessibility. color blind people really appreciate mostly white and then black highlight colors. much better for them

and i think your design aesthetics maybe a little out there. i'm sure pablo picasso would possibly scoff at beautiful macs too.

hold on....macs are already taking heat for slow but beautiful OS and you're still complaining? geez louise...you really can't please everybody. also keep in mind you are in the vast minority

[Korv]

I just had to chime in. When I'm using UNIX I make everything white on black, bacause black on white hurts my eyes with the overwhelming glaring whiteness. I too wish I had a way to turn everything to white on black.

[raskol]

Originally posted by rjenkinson:


well, no. you're wrong. green on black does not provide the same degree of contrast as black on white (higher contrast means easier to read). but white on black makes edges hard to read.

-r.

Please people read and comprehend. I did not say green on black provides the same contrast. You quoted me and you still misunderstood. I may be in the vast minority but I would argue that is because no one else even thinks about it.

Before you go blindly defending the status quo go to a website like ars technica and tell me that site is hard to read.

Thanks for the support Korv!

And please I never said it should ONLY be my way I would just like to have the option. I don't think it is much to ask.

[Thrax]

I'm surprised someone hasn't answered this correctly yet.

White text on a blue screen is the easiest to read. White on black is a close second. This is why early computers typically offered these as defaults.

With the advent of the GUI, WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) became more important than making something easier on the eyes on screen. Since creating something for black text on white paper was the most common use for early computers, most of the GUI was designed accordingly.

[daimoni]

.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Thrax:
I'm surprised someone hasn't answered this correctly yet.

White text on a blue screen is the easiest to read. White on black is a close second. This is why early computers typically offered these as defaults.

With the advent of the GUI, WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) became more important than making something easier on the eyes on screen. Since creating something for black text on white paper was the most common use for early computers, most of the GUI was designed accordingly.

and, for the design industry, color positive on white is the norm.

[raskol]

Originally posted by daimoni:
raskol: Wow. You really are an ass-clown.

Wow what an astute observation. Thank you.

Oh and thanks for you contribution.

Now since most of us don't do just one thing a computer, like page layout or graphic design, how about giving users the option. Or does everyone have to be a print designer to use a Mac?

Like I said in the first post I realize that the Mac GUI was originally designed as a page layout app by Xerox yes I know. But the fact that it has a mouse and pull-down menus doesn't mean we all have to be stuck with windows that are painful to read. The Mac GUI is not WYSIWYG only the individual windows are.

You Mac people are all still running around patting yourselves on the back that Mac OS had the first consumer available mouse driven interface. Ok congratulations now can we move on? Some of us have been around since the first Apple computer and that was easier to read text on than what I have now. Yes green on black is easier to read. Ever seen an air traffic control screen that is black on white? You think it might be important that they can read their screens?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by raskol:


Wow what an astute observation. Thank you.

yes. Daimoni is one of the more astute members here. You were being sarcastic, he wasn't.
;0)

[daimoni]

.

[raskol]

You two recently pubescent pasty face geeks wanna get it on?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by raskol:
You two recently pubescent pasty face geeks wanna get it on?

LOL! that is so...so wrong...in so many ways.

[Millennium]

It is true that white on black provides the same level of contrast as black on white.

There's another issue at play, however: color balance. Black is a cooler color than white (indeed, they're at the ends of the spectrum). A cool color on a warm background makes the letters appear to "pop out" of the page, making it easier to read. Warm text on a cool background "sinks into" the page, and isn't as easily readable.

The properties of a CRT can make black on white pretty eye-blasting, it's true. But it's still the most readable combination. The trick is to have as little whitespace as practical; you need some, but if you have too much it's a problem. Just another design consideration to put into play.

I think this is one of the reasons Apple put the stripes into Aqua. That helps to break up the whitespace so that it isn't physically painful to look at.

[EDIT: Flipped a few words around so that this actually makes some sense]

Something nobody has mentioned yet is: are you reading your monitor in the dark? If so, turn on a lamp. Light around the screen is easier on your eyes. I would imagine that is where your eye-strain solution lies.

Also, Usability studies have shown that black text on white is easier to read than the reverse at smaller sizes. Small details are easier to see when they are dark or saturated colours.

Finally, old terminals and monitors were not white text on black background because it was easier on the eyes. They did it to preserve the CRT. Early CRTs were crappy and would wear out from being used too often. White text on black background means less phosphors being used.

Regardless, set your Mac up the way you like it.

[Miniryu]

Originally posted by raskol:
Look I am not a newbie. I know I can do the universal access thing. That is not my point. My point was that the whole idea of black text on a white background is flawed. If you actually read my post instead of treating it like a problem report or a bug you would know what I am talking about.

Cipher your a tech. I don't need a tech I need a designer. Paper does not emit light it reflects light. You didn't understand my post. Do you know the difference between CMYK and RGB?

I seriously doubt anyone wants to design u a pile or sh�t much less an entire theme/scheme. Both of my parents have bad eyes and cannot read white on black. Black on white works fine. I think your problem (similar to a UNIX user) is that you spend to much time staring at your computer screen. Go outside once in a while and look at real sunlight and the white of a web browser might not seem so bright.

[wataru]

raskol is possibly the most abusive poster I've ever seen on these forums. I mean Ca$h could be a jackass, sure, but rarely did he lash out at people who were trying to help him.

[G4ME]

but when did cash ever want our help?

[Miniryu]

Originally posted by G4ME:
but when did cash ever want our help?

He asked me for �nal one time.

[AlbertWu]

black on white creates more white glare because of the contrast between the light bouncing off the screen and the light (or lack thereof) on the other side, just like you can see a reflection of yourself in the window of a dark room, but it's harder when the lights inside are turned on. the white glare makes white text (white on white) harder to read than it would be for black text, because the majority of the screen is not dark.

[AlbertWu]

Originally posted by Miniryu:


He asked me for �nal one time.

the day that becomes "help" is the day i run far far away...

[usedmac]

It's obvious that raskol is asking this question here because he doesn't have the people skills to get away with this s*** in the real world. Go take a manners class and then come back when you're ready to act like a decent person. Most people like him either die virgins or rapists.

[PorscheBunny]

Originally posted by raskol:
Thanks for nothing. Typical response. Why do you waste my time? Is it a personal problem you have?

�

Paper does not emit light it reflects light. You didn't understand my post. Do you know the difference between CMYK and RGB?

�

You two recently pubescent pasty face geeks wanna get it on?

You ask for help and you respond to it like that?! See if anyone helps you in the future!

Ok, if you're so damn smart, you fucking design it.

I don't think they'll be receptive to your offer to 'get it on' with you, especially after what you said eariler.

[PorscheBunny]

Originally posted by Thrax:
I'm surprised someone hasn't answered this correctly yet.

White text on a blue screen is the easiest to read. White on black is a close second. This is why early computers typically offered these as defaults.

You are incorrect.

Green on black and amber on black (70s and early 80s) long preceded white on blue.

[AlbertWu]

Originally posted by Thrax:


White text on a blue screen

I prefer NOT to be reminded of the BSOD, thankyouvermuch

[kmkkid]

Yes many older consoles used lime green on black, which is easy on the eyes, but wheres the "real world" value in those colours? Computers are supposed to be an extension of the real world arnt they? or at least thats where they are headed.

Chris

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by raskol:
Look I am not a newbie. I know I can do the universal access thing. That is not my point. My point was that the whole idea of black text on a white background is flawed. If you actually read my post instead of treating it like a problem report or a bug you would know what I am talking about.

Cipher your a tech. I don't need a tech I need a designer. Paper does not emit light it reflects light. You didn't understand my post. Do you know the difference between CMYK and RGB?

Uh, yeah, okay then... Don't let the door hit you...

[tooki]

I for one do in fact find white-on-black (like ArsTechnica) harder to read than black-on-white.

The Mac GUI wasn't designed by Xerox, and neither the Xerox Alto nor the Lisa and Mac were designed for doing DTP. The bitmap graphics they use just happen to have made the Mac the only viable platform for running DTP apps at the time.

If your monitor seems too bright, raskol, just turn on some ambient lighting!! Get a nice torchiere or wall sconces -- IOW, lamps that shine the light onto your ceiling, diffusing it onto the room.

Yes, raskol, you've been kinda nasty in this thread, not to mention full of sh... -- er, misconceptions and prejudices. Be nice or be gone, please.

tooki

P.S. The difference between the light characteristics of paper and a computer screen isn't RGB vs. CMYK, but rather subtractive vs. additive light. There are several color models for each (RGB, YUV, LAB, etc for additive; CMYK, CcMmYKk, Hexacolor, spot color, etc for subtractive).

[Thrax]

Originally posted by PorscheBunny:


You are incorrect.

Green on black and amber on black (70s and early 80s) long preceded white on blue.

Yeah, I know. But those were the less expensive (bad) monitors. The more expensive (good) monitors were usually black and white or blue and white.

[Mac Zealot]

k, calm down, I think raskol forgot his coffee.

CRTs do indeed suck for reading text, and I can't believe he lkes green on black as I always thought reading those monitors was like getting an xray.

Stop complaining, it's not like windows is any better

[oVeRmInD911]

Does anyone have a copy of BlackLight anymore? The person's iDisk is down, and I lost my copy. Can anyone help me out?

[raskol]

God some of you people are so up-tight and/or sensitive it is unbelievable.

Nick Burns is right on.

[Miniryu]

You guys are all stupid, and you are all wrong. Red on orange background is the easiest to see.

Originally posted by Thrax:


Yeah, I know. But those were the less expensive (bad) monitors. The more expensive (good) monitors were usually black and white or blue and white.

The "good" monitors were not invented yet. The first montors were green monochrome, with amber to follow. Colour (hence allowing white on blue) didn't come until years later.

Originally posted by raskol:
God some of you people are so up-tight and/or sensitive it is unbelievable.

So the person who lashes out at people for offering legitimate assistance is not the uptight one? Give me a break.

The only way for you to save face is to grow up and apologize for acting like an immature little punk. The choice is yours.