[I WAS the One]

I have a low budget right now, and I need to buy a PowerMac G4 for my home business that I'm gonna start as soos as i get that new mac on my desk! I work with Protools (by day) and with Photoshop (by night). I was using my old 233mhz beige G3 desktop for that for a long time, and I feel i'm running at 25mph on a 75mph zone! get it? so here's the choices I have:

1) Power Mac G4 867MHz Dual Processor / 256MB RAM / 60GB HD / Combo (DVD-ROM/CD-RW) / NVIDIA GeForce4 MX
for $1494.95

or...

2) the NEW Power Mac G4 1.0GHz Processor / 256MB RAM / 60GB HD / Combo (DVD-ROM/CD-RW) / NVIDIA GeForce4 MX for $1494.95

different macs, same price....PLEASE HELP!

[derekn]

DP 867. You'll be able to do more simultaneously and unless you really need FW800, the 867 is better overall. It doesn't sound you'll be using it for gaming so the 32MB GeForce 4 MX will be fine. And if you need it, you'll be able to use OS 9 (sans hacks) as the startup OS.

[Superchicken]

DUAL!
No question that last low end is still better than this low end! Photoshop will enjoy the Dual, as will ProTools I suspect, heck you could run em both at the same time.

[CatOne]

Dual 867 over single 1000 FOR SURE. No question here.

Parallelism is WAY better on the dual... and for single-threaded tasks it's only 13% slower which is hardly noticeable.

The dual will feel (pardon this) much "snappier" because one task won't slow down another. It's quite nice.

[Mac Zealot]

*chants* DUALIE... DUALIE.... DUALIE!

[I WAS the One]

I will buy the dual g4 then! by the way, somebody told me that in macwarehouse they have a dual 1.0 ghz g4 reconditioned for $1,699.00 waht do you think? --- mmm, maybe the other one is the best,(because its new, you know...) thanxs anyway... this site rocks!!!
peace

[BrunoBruin]

The dual-1GHz isn't a bad buy - it has a faster bus than the 867, a better graphics card (64 vs. 32MB) and the SuperDrive to boot.

[AssassyN]

If I were buying any refurb. Dual machine, it would be the Dual 1Ghz without a doubt. If I couldn't afford it, I'd save up and get it rather than just dealing w/ a lower machine. You'll be glad you did Good luck w/ your new Mac!

[AssassyN]

And by the way, that site has a great reputation for their quality refurb. machines. Refurbs. are nothing to be afraid of, they've actually been put through more quality tests than new ones because when the machines are sent back they have to be thoroughly quality checked before resold, so you're buying a machine that's been checked and rechecked, plus they'll warrenty their refurbs. just like new machines.

[Cadaver]

If you use OS X, then I also vote for a dual processor machine over a single processor any time.

Now, if it's a choice between a dual 500 or a single 1GHz, I'd have a hard time... but between a dual 867 and a single 1.0, the choice is easy.

[I WAS the One]

answer me this:
why refurb is cheaper than a used one?
do I have to buy all the apple i-softwares that comes free with new powermacs, just because they are refurb?

I really don't know exactly the difference between a used one, a refurb one and a dis****inued one...

do I have to go for the brand new, just because... or do you guys think refurb isn't bad.
(I still thinking about the 867mhz dual g4... I dont know, it feels more secure than the refurbished one...)

[bbrowne74]

Originally posted by I WAS the One:
answer me this:
why refurb is cheaper than a used one?
do I have to buy all the apple i-softwares that comes free with new powermacs, just because they are refurb?

I really don't know exactly the difference between a used one, a refurb one and a dis****inued one...

do I have to go for the brand new, just because... or do you guys think refurb isn't bad.
(I still thinking about the 867mhz dual g4... I dont know, it feels more secure than the refurbished one...)

No, not at all. I bought a refurbished 1Ghz TiBook, and other then the box it came in, it came packed the same as a new machine - the refurb boxes aren't the snazzy white ones with the picture of the product. It is a normal brown box, says refurb on it, but it is packed as a new machine with all the same stuff (cables, CDs, etc.) as the new one. The software on my refurb TiBook (which I'm on now) was no different then what is on a TiBook when you buy it new.

[Kenneth]

I read something "negative" on the refurb. PowerMac on macintouch.com

http://www.macintouch.com/g4-2003pt02.html#mar05

Since you are going for the PowerMac.. a dualie will be a better choice.

Check the deals here
http://www.lowendmac.com/ppc/deals.html
dealmac.com as well.

[I WAS the One]

if I buy a brand new mac, somebody told me I will lost all the OS9 software!!! because I will never be able to boot from OS9.
WTF!!!???? somebody explain this to me, please. I have software in my old machine that i will install on that new g4 if I buy it. (I was hoping to have two drives, one with osx and the other with os9. now thay say i can't. it is true??

[derekn]

That's the point I mentioned above. The DP 867 WILL boot into OS 9 and classic. The new PowerMacs (with FW 800) will NOT boot into 9, you'll only have classic there. You can supposedly boot into OS 9 with a hack but I don't know if even that will work or not. So if you need an OS 9 startup as a necessisty, get the DP 867.

And having X on one drive and 9 on another is no problem either. You can put two seperate drives on the ATA/100 and ATA/66 busses, both are bootable.

[booboo]

I couldn't bear the noise of a Dual 867 - I bought one and sent it back - and bought a second hand Dual 533 which is perhaps closer in performance than you might imagine.

For audio work, some 867's also have some serious audio noise issues - (as well as the physical fan-noise issues) which, as a ProTools user, could seriously affect you.

visit G4noise.com

The Dual 533 is an absolute joy, and feels much faster than - subjectively almost twice as fast as - the 733 Digital Audio (with backside cache) I had previously. I'm sure it will do me just fine until the G5...

[I WAS the One]

say what???

533 dual better than 867 dual????

thats the same thing like upgrading my old 233mhz g3 to a dual 500 mhz overclocked! I want to know If this guy KNOWS what his talking about.

and by the way, no OS 9 support its a MSN/Monopoly style. Let me tell you this, lots of Prootools users, wont buy again lots of plug ins just to play music on a OSX envoirement.. thats BS!

If i was thinking to sell my old g3... I guess I will keep it then!

iSWITCH means, apple its SWITCHING to a MSN business style! dont you guys think? hahaha!

anyway thats good for the biz!

[booboo]

Originally posted by I WAS the One:
say what???

533 dual better than 867 dual????

thats the same thing like upgrading my old 233mhz g3 to a dual 500 mhz overclocked! I want to know If this guy KNOWS what his talking about.

Your comparison of a 233MHz G3 to a Dual 500MHz is not fair. Your 233MHz G3 to a 366MHz G3 would be fairer. Do you remember when the G4 733 (with backside cache) came out. It was hardly any faster than the G4 533 single processor. I.e 10-20%, not a linear scaling.

I am not saying the Dual 533 is better than the Dual 867. What I am saying is this:

1. The dual 867 is very noisy (fan noise) Maybe the PSU replacement program fixes this. The fan noise is related to the fact it runs so hot, PCI cards end up hotter. I wouldn't be entirely pleased about this if I were putting $3,000 Digidesign cards in there....

2. The dual 867 has some audio problems - RF getting into the audio outputs, and even into PCI soundcards. This absolutely rules out the dual 867 for me (for serious audio work).

3. You would think the dual 867 would be at least 50% faster than the dual 533, but in fact it's not. More like 25%. What I'm saying is that the performance scaling is not linear. Bear in mind they have the same bus speed, 133MHz, same AGP speed 4x... though the 533 has a slower ATA bus, slower RAM (a marginal loss)

I'd be happy to run a benchmark. In fact, someone, please. Let's do it!

I just want to save you from an expensive mistake. I bought my Dual 867 from a company I have dealt with a lot, and consequently they agreed to allow me to return my MDD for a full refund. If I'd not been such a 'good' customer, they might have been less willing...

[booboo]

Originally posted by I WAS the One:
I will buy the dual g4 then! by the way, somebody told me that in macwarehouse they have a dual 1.0 ghz g4 reconditioned for $1,699.00 waht do you think? --- mmm, maybe the other one is the best,(because its new, you know...) thanxs anyway... this site rocks!!!
peace

All the first generation MDD's have audio problems. If you buy one, buy it on the condition that you can return the machine if it suffers from audio problems.

It doesn't matter how many plug-ins you can run, if your audio ends up with background noise that shouldn't be there, the machine is useless.

I don't know if the new MDD's have fixed this. apparentlly not according to G4noise.com.

Did you bother to follow the link I gave you?

Sad to say, I don't think now is the time to spend a sizeable sum of money on a new G4 MDD for audio use...

[I WAS the One]

FAIR.

Thanxs for the knowledge and experience that you share with me. Believe it or not, this will be my next proyect for a radio-show production. and believe me, I'm trying to buy a better equipment than the one I use back in my job,they have protools on a cheap PC clone and I have to make some kind of miracles there, but then I went to digidesign webpage and download the free prottols there, and in my opinion, in mac ,that software works a lot better. so, I've been using mac since 1989, and I am the kind of mac user that always try to get pc people to switch, since the beggining. In other words, I really am on a low budget here, so I want to know what kind of mac fits my needs in both markets, digital design and audio productions.
like I say before, at night i am a graphic designer, but in the day im working on audio productions and vice versa... Im tire of my old g3 now, I just want to make the right desition, and start right away. your opinions are very valuable for me. I am taking seriusly your advice. I WAS the one who brought special effects on print art, I WAS the one who brought photo restauration back in 89... today I am a new guy learning from MASTERS like you guys! thanxs.

the world still spinning... wooohoooo!

[BillyB]

Originally posted by I WAS the One:
I will buy the dual g4 then! by the way, somebody told me that in macwarehouse they have a dual 1.0 ghz g4 reconditioned for $1,699.00 waht do you think? --- mmm, maybe the other one is the best,(because its new, you know...) thanxs anyway... this site rocks!!!
peace

If it is the QuickSilver 2002 Dual 1.0 Ghz... JUMP ON IT! (discontinued Aug. 2002). This WILL boot into OS 9 & has the superdrive.

I bought mine in December from eBay for $1825... Great Machine! And I agree, that "refurbs" actually have been scrutinized much more closely for resale and you will probably be pleased with it 99% of the time.

[OreoCookie]

Dual. Period.

[booboo]

Originally posted by I WAS the One:
FAIR.

...but then I went to digidesign webpage and download the free prottols there, and in my opinion, in mac ,that software works a lot better. so, I've been using mac since 1989, and I am the kind of mac user that always try to get pc people to switch, since the beggining. In other words, I really am on a low budget here, so I want to know what kind of mac fits my needs in both markets, digital design and audio productions....

One more thing:

ProTools FREE is currently only available for Mac OS 9.

So that rules out the new MDD machines completely. And as I've said before, I can't recommend the first gen MDD's without serious reservations.

Hopefully Digidesign will release a version of ProTools FREE for Mac OS X, but intill then, you need a Mac that can boot in OS 9.

I would say these are the best machines for now and the immediate future, in order of preference.

Dual 1GHz Quicksilver
Dual 800MHz Quicksilver

Or I'd buy a cheaper, older G4, such as the Dual 533 ;-) as a stopgap (or a 466 if you can find one really cheap, and put a Dual 1GHz+ Dual processor upgrade in it) until the next generation of Mac's... G5?

I too stick with and recommend the Mac, though the MDD debacle did rock my faith...

[I WAS the One]

do everybody in this forum thinks the dual 800mhz g4 quicksilver works great with os9, osx, graphics and audio?

just checking different opinions

[I WAS the One]

by the way... now I have my mind spinning, and my original idea of buying a new mac has change. so. any links or ideas where to buy an old g4 like quicksilver dual 800 mhz? HELP

[Kenneth]

The DP 800 QS is a good choice but I heard that these machine has some sort of hardware issue.

I found some DP800 in smalldog.com. You may want to check here for the complete line of old and new PowerMac.

http://www.lowendmac.com/ppc/deals.html#old

[a2daj]

I don't recall any hardware issues with the dual 800s.

[loh]

I truthfully am really happy with my MDD Dual 867 that I bought last november. If you go for a quicksilver, youre going for a machine that is already a few generations old. Not saying theres anything wrong with the QS machines, but they are getting older, Plus you can get a Dual 867 machine brand NEW for the same price as those used Dual 800s. There is the issue that the MDD makes noise, but Apple released the power supply exchange program which will probably make the MDD G4s just as quiet if not quieter than quicksilver machines. One last thing, you wont be getting Jaguar with a quicksilver machine. Keep those things in mind

[booboo]

Originally posted by loh:
...If you go for a quicksilver, youre going for a machine that is already a few generations old. Not saying theres anything wrong with the QS machines, but they are getting older, Plus you can get a Dual 867 machine brand NEW for the same price as those used Dual 800s. There is the issue that the MDD makes noise, but Apple released the power supply exchange program which will probably make the MDD G4s just as quiet if not quieter than quicksilver machines.

The Quickilver is ONE generation old than yours.

The AUDIO problems with the MDD's have not been resolved. The PSU fan whine may well be fixed with the exchange programme.

This guy is doing audio work, so the MDD's audio issues are particularly relevant...

[Cadaver]

Originally posted by Kenneth:
The DP 800 QS is a good choice but I heard that these machine has some sort of hardware issue.

I found some DP800 in smalldog.com. You may want to check here for the complete line of old and new PowerMac.

http://www.lowendmac.com/ppc/deals.html#old

I'm posting this from a Quicksilver Dual 800... and so far, since originally purchased right when they were released, I've had zero hardware problems. It's been the most stable computer (PC or Mac) I've ever laid hands on.

It is (was) available with a Superdrive, it will boot OS 9 (not that I ever do) and isn't really that noisy. The stock hard drive was the loudest component (since replaced).

It's got a 4x AGP slot... mine's holding a GeForce 3 card.

The only issues that some may have with the Quicksilver is 1) no audio input. Not a big deal for me and correctable with an iMic. And 2) limited to 1.5GB of RAM vs. 2GB in the newer machines. Again, for most people this isn't a big deal.

As for ATA66 vs ATA100 or 133, a fast hard drive, like a WD Special Edition 8MB cache model, will get you 99.9% of the way there performance-wise. Although ATA66 is limited to 128GB per drive.

[Kenneth]

May be they are just some isolated problem. As always you can do a search on DP800 in this forum and see.

[I WAS the One]

I am having a headache right now.

[booboo]

The only issues that some may have with the Quicksilver is 1) no audio input. Not a big deal for me and correctable with an iMic. And 2) limited to 1.5GB of RAM vs. 2GB in the newer machines. Again, for most people this isn't a big deal.
[/B]

You're right, the lack of an audio input is a pain (that was also true of the G4 Digital Audio) but on the other hand, anyone doing serious recording with a Mac would be well advised to invest in a Soundcard anyway. There are inexpensove USB solutions, but a pro PCI card would be a better choice, I feel.

The hardware issues with the QS AFAIK affected only one specific Digidesign card. I'll repost back with the details when I uncover them...

There are various inexpensive PCI cards from M*audio, such as the audiophile 2496, which are very high quality, and the company must be applauded for suppoting OS X from day 1, and this card I would generally recommend.

However, for our Protools using friend here, a secondhand Audiomedia III might be a better bet, it would provide better than 16 bit quality, digital I/O, and also allow him to run a 'real' version of ProTools, i.e. ProTools 6 LE. ($75 'upgrade') There are of course better, and more expensive cards, but this one regularly turns up for as little as $120 and, at that price, can't be beat.

[booboo]

Originally posted by Cadaver:
I
The only issues that some may have with the Quicksilver is 1) no audio input. Not a big deal for me and correctable with an iMic. And 2) limited to 1.5GB of RAM vs. 2GB in the newer machines. Again, for most people this isn't a big deal.

The only issues that some may have with the Quicksilver is 1) no audio input. Not a big deal for me and correctable with an iMic. And 2) limited to 1.5GB of RAM vs. 2GB in the newer machines. Again, for most people this isn't a big deal.
[/B]

You're right, the lack of an audio input is a pain (that was also true of the G4 Digital Audio) but on the other hand, anyone doing serious recording with a Mac would be well advised to invest in a Soundcard anyway. There are inexpensove USB solutions, but a pro PCI card would be a better choice, I feel.

The hardware issues with the QS AFAIK affected only one specific Digidesign card. I'll repost back with the details when I uncover them...

There are various inexpensive PCI cards from M*audio, such as the audiophile 2496, which are very high quality, and the company must be applauded for suppoting OS X from day 1, and this card I would generally recommend.

However, for our Protools using friend here, a secondhand Audiomedia III might be a better bet, it would provide better than 16 bit quality, digital I/O, and also allow him to run a 'real' version of ProTools, i.e. ProTools 6 LE. ($75 'upgrade') There are of course better, and more expensive cards, but this one regularly turns up for as little as $120 and, at that price, can't be beat.

[I WAS the One]

I am planning to buy the Mbox audio card from digidesign, and a powermac g4 dual. the thing is that I Have plug ins I cant use with OSX so I will have to stay in OS9 just for audio production. but in the other hand, I have the brand new software upgrades of photoshop and freehand, including illustrator 10 and flash mx.. those apps will run awsome on the OSX... so the buttom line is I need a brand new mac, with two brains, one for OS9 and one for OSX, half graphics, half audio, and I only have $1700 for the machine and 500 for the audio card. LOW BUDGET , BIG PROBLEM...ONE SOLUTION...YOUR ADVICE!

[chris v]

Macconnection and maczone both have dual 867's on close-out for 1495.00 I'm thinking about nabbing one of those in the next couple weeks.

FWIW, I'm running Logic Platinum and a Quicksilver Dual Gig and am very happy with its performance so far. I've been able to run 16-18 audio tracks with compressers and EQ's on each, and also 4 or 5 reverbs and echos on stereo busses without it stumbling.

CV

[Mac Zealot]

It can be done. It really can be done.

[I WAS the One]

so what will be the final statement?

what should I do?

a) 800mhz dual QS
b) 1ghz dual QS
c) 867 Mhz Dual DDR
d) upgrade your old g3
e) nothing of all above

tic toc tic toc....

[Mac Zealot]

Originally posted by I WAS the One:
so what will be the final statement?

what should I do?

a) 800mhz dual QS
b) 1ghz dual QS
c) 867 Mhz Dual DDR
d) upgrade your old g3
e) nothing of all above

tic toc tic toc....

1. Dual ghz
2. Dual 867
3. Dual 800 (in that order)

1. The dual ghz is quieter than the dual 800.
2. The dual ghz is built better.
3. The dual 867 is PROBABLY quiter.
4. The quicksilver is nicer than the MDD.

[I WAS the One]

I hope everything turns fine. I will buy it tomorrow. so I will keep in touch with u guys! thanxs for everything

your mac-friend:
I (WAS) the ONE

[booboo]

Originally posted by I WAS the One:
I hope everything turns fine. I will buy it tomorrow. so I will keep in touch with u guys! thanxs for everything

your mac-friend:
I (WAS) the ONE

Let us know what you get...:-)

PS It really pissed me of everyone continuing to recommend the Dual 867.

Dual 867 + earplugs = great for video, graphics, etc.

But it CANNOT be recommended unconditionally for audio.

End of story.

[Agent69]

Originally posted by booboo:
Let us know what you get...:-)

PS It really pissed me of everyone continuing to recommend the Dual 867.

Dual 867 + earplugs = great for video, graphics, etc.

But it CANNOT be recommended unconditionally for audio.

End of story.

Then just get the powersupply fix from Apple.

[booboo]

Originally posted by Agent69:
Then just get the powersupply fix from Apple.

NO NO NO NO NO NO!

I'm not talking about the whine of the PSU fans, I'm talking about signal noise that finds its way onto the audio outputs, more noticeably the headphone outputs, but also into PCI sound outputs.

Please visit G4noise.com, or at least read a few of the posts in this thread.

[I WAS the One]

HEY!!!! people!!! wassup!!! I am still waiting for my brand new powermac that I order on maczone yesterday!!! finally I decide for the 867dual g4, because I did my homework and I finally realize, that the mac is not going to be on the same room where the mic is so, the sound is not going to infiltrade inside the recordind session, and it have enough power to run photoshop nicely too... and by the way.. I really need an OS 9 HD bootable and a OS X HD (two hard drives on that 867dual g4) answer me this:
Can I put the os 9 HD from my old G3 directly to my G4 without problems and then just switch between one to the other??? it will be bootable right? or I have to erase it (the OS 9 one)and reformat it again if I want to use it inside my brand new 867dual g4?

help

[Person Man]

Originally posted by derekn:
You can supposedly boot into OS 9 with a hack but I don't know if even that will work or not.

not true.

The "hack" mentioned on MacFixIt is only for the current 2003 15" iMacs, not any of the other machines. OS 9 will never work on the others, because they have totally new motherboards. (The 2003 15" flat panel iMac has the same motherboard as the previous model, so OS 9 still has the drivers available for it... Only the ROM file was changed)

[I WAS the One]

I am surfing the net, with my brand new (and noisy) 867mhz dual g4!!!! its faster!!! its a new kind of machine!!!! I am happy....thanxs for the help guys! but let me tell you what is happening right now... when I start up the mac everything went fine, but when I installed another disk from an old g3 (the one I dont want to lost) THE FAMOUS QUESTION MARK WAS FLASHING IN FRONT OF MY EYES!!! well, I disconnect the old drive and then everything went to normal again... but I need to boot from that disk!! for real. all my daily work is there! I know that I can have both disks, the os X and the OS 9 bootable, on a 867 dual g4, thats why I get it! so please help me! I need to boot from my old g3 OS 9.2.2 drive inside my new mac!
what I have to do???

[Simon]

Originally posted by I WAS the One:
...but when I installed another disk from an old g3 (the one I dont want to lost) THE FAMOUS QUESTION MARK WAS FLASHING IN FRONT OF MY EYES!!! well, I disconnect the old drive and then everything went to normal again... but I need to boot from that disk!! for real. all my daily work is there! I know that I can have both disks, the os X and the OS 9 bootable, on a 867 dual g4, thats why I get it! so please help me! I need to boot from my old g3 OS 9.2.2 drive inside my new mac!
what I have to do???

OK, give us some more info.

- Where did you install that drive? If it's on the same channel as the stock HD and they are both set to master you could get problems.

- My old dual 867 had the stock HD set to cable select so I set the additional drive to cable select as well. That worked. Did you?

- Have you tried starting with the option key pressed down to get to the screen where you can select your startup disk?

- Does it boot from the stock HD if you take out the old G3 drive?

[I WAS the One]

- Where did you install that drive? If it's on the same channel as the stock HD and they are both set to master you could get problems.

A: in the same tray with the stock HD (I dont know if it set to master too)

- My old dual 867 had the stock HD set to cable select so I set the additional drive to cable select as well. That worked. Did you?

A: nope. I think I will try that

- Have you tried starting with the option key pressed down to get to the screen where you can select your startup disk?

A: no, but when I start up with the os 9 cd, no drives show up.. only the cd was there.

- Does it boot from the stock HD if you take out the old G3 drive?

A: yes, perfectly. os X runs great!!!

[Simon]

Originally posted by I WAS the One:
in the same tray with the stock HD (I dont know if it set to master too)

OK, I bet your problems are gone as soon as you put the disk into the front ATA/66 bay.

Originally posted by I WAS the One:
- My old dual 867 had the stock HD set to cable select so I set the additional drive to cable select as well. That worked. Did you?

nope. I think I will try that

Yeah. I bet the problems arise because the disks are fighting about who is master and who slave, thus none of them is seen on the channel. Therefore you have no disk that the system could load from and that's where you get the question mark from.

Originally posted by I WAS the One:
Have you tried starting with the option key pressed down to get to the screen where you can select your startup disk?

A: no, but when I start up with the os 9 cd, no drives show up.. only the cd was there.

Try this just to make sure that there isn't a blessed system around that doesn't get loaded for some strange (software) reason.

Originally posted by I WAS the One:
yes, perfectly. os X runs great!!!

Yeah, so software doesn't seem to be the problem here. I really think there must be some problem on the ATA/100 channel...