[BkueKanoodle]

Before any one flames me, I must say this is just my opinion. From what I've read here, some people seem to be having a lot of problems with their 12"s Screws falling out, gaps in fit a finsih, wobbling, warping, Metal coming unglued. I thought thse were the typical board rants. You know how you never see a lot of positive rants, always complaints.

Anyways, stopped by a Mac store today to browse. I was talking to the clerk, and I noticed the 12 inch had the sticky trackpad problem. I asked him if he's had any complaints about this, and he said "yes, but not as many as this" and he proceeded to close the book and show me how bad the fit was on the 12 inch , gaps and warps everywere. It looked awful. He said that they have gone through 3 display models because they get handled so much.

I'm not dissing the 12 inch, but I'm starting to wonder if the thing is as sturdy as people claim it is.

Makes me glad I decided to get a tibook instead. At least there, I knew I was buying a delicate flower.

[fetopher]

Usually don't respond to these, but I just got my 12" yesterday. Its beautiful. I cannot find a thing wrong with it. Maybe I'm just lucky. I love it.

[iDriveX]

I've had the 12" for about 2 months now and besides some bad RAM that came with the PowerBook from PowerMax, I have never had a problem with it. It's 10x better than my iBook/600 ever was. I love it. I don't respond much to these types of threads either but I gotta defend my 'book.

[PeterKG]

So what is the point of your post? I somehow doubt a salesperson at an Apple store would stand there and point out any flaws in a display unit, or have one on the floor that is flawed.

Instead of worring about the condition of the 12" Powerbook, just come back later when your paint starts flaking off your TiBook, and tell us all about it.

[JVB_2112]

Went to my local Apple dealer and had a look at the 12" Powerbook. It was perfect, there were none of the visible problems as described here on the boards.

Most people don't post anything good about products here on the boards unless asked. However, everyone always wants to vent when they feel there is a problem with their purchases.

JVB

[ebisix]

Maybe if someone put up a poll about it we could get the real numbers.

[BkueKanoodle]

Originally posted by PeterKG:
So what is the point of your post? I somehow doubt a salesperson at an Apple store would stand there and point out any flaws in a display unit, or have one on the floor that is flawed.

Instead of worring about the condition of the 12" Powerbook, just come back later when your paint starts flaking off your TiBook, and tell us all about it.

Sound a tad bit defensive there. Maybe I hit to close to home.

My point was to ask if looking at the types of problems that are popping up, maybe the 12 inch isn't the sturdy laptop it was made out to be.

Yes its a rev A, but wasn't the titaniuum blasted as "delicate" when it first came out? Now that they've got the bugs worked out, (including the paint) people still seem to want to refer to them as "fragile" Does this mean the 12 inch will enjoy the same reputation based on the flaws of its rev a intro?

And why can't Apple seem to do decent QA on product intro's. Not to start a PC vs Mac war, but you don't see the same consistent design problems on the same product line on the pc side.

Inquiring minds want to know.

And for the record, it wasn't an apple store, it was a 3rd party Mac only reseller.

[JVB_2112]

Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:
Does this mean the 12 inch will enjoy the same reputation based on the flaws of its rev a intro?

I think I'm missing your point. How many people have reported 12" PB flaws? 100, 200? How many 12"ers has Apple shipped? 10,000? 20,000? I think it all comes down to the numbers. Without knowing the actual numbers of serious issues, it's just a lot of speculation that widespread flaws do exist.

Sure a few computers will ship that have some form of flaw. Quality control requires a lot of diligence on the part of the inspectors. Unfortunately human workers are not always at their best, they make mistakes and things get shipped that never should have.

I've ordered a 12" Powerbook that should arrive next week. I don't worry that it's going to have serious flaws. Why? Because I have talked to 12" BP owners whom have nothing but good things to say about their purchase. I have also looked at several of the 12" PBs first hand and was satisfied.

I do however consider the negative feedback from users that have experienced issues, but I take into account that they normally represent a very vocal minority.

JVB

[chrisutley]

There is nothing wrong with the message that started this thread. I have been wondering the same thing ... Does the 12" have more problems than a typical Rev A Apple laptop? I don't know...

I know I bought my wife a Rev A 12" iBook and it has never been to Apple, and has no problems to speak of. That's just one iBook out of thousands so again, I don't know...

I think the exotic nature of the PowerBooks (see super thin, aluminum/titanium) makes them more likely to have problems. Speculation I know, just my opinion.

[Rivak]

my 12" is coming apart at the seams and I sill love it!

I don't think it is shoddily built, I just think it could use a few more screws and less glue

[JVB_2112]

Originally posted by Rivak:
my 12" is coming apart at the seams and I sill love it!

I don't think it is shoddily built, I just think it could use a few more screws and less glue

I've seen that picture posted several times on the boards, and I assume that that is one of the issues that the original poster was referring to.

What have you done to get the issue resolved? Have you contacted Apple yet?

JVB

[penmanila]

i've owned and used a rev A ibook, rev A tibook, and now a rev A albook. only the tibook had a problem (the flaking paint, which i already knew about when i bought the machine). they've all worked beautifully.

until someone can actually bring up figures that prove that, say, "3 out of every 5 albooks are flawed," (something that has actually been said of the emac's crt, for example) then we can't create or contribute to the impression that this is a bad product. i've had my albook for two weeks and still can't find a thing wrong with it, and maybe i'm just lucky, but i think many thousands of us are "lucky" in this respect.

[Rivak]

I haven�t contacted Apple yet because right now I need my computer and I can�t afford to be without it. In a few weeks, if it gets worse [or even if it doesn�t] I will probably call Apple and see what my options are.

[BkueKanoodle]

Just to do an unscientific study, I drove around to 3 compusa's tonight, 1 fry's, 1 Power Mac Pack, and every single one had a 12 inch on display, and every single one had something wong with it.

Fry's = Missing key

Compusa 1 = Sticking trackpad, wobble, bad fit on close

Compusa 2 - Sticky trackpad, wobble

Compusa 3 =Missing screw, bad fit close

Powermac pack - Bad fit case

So my numbers say there is obviously a problem, Your mileage may vary.

Don't get me wrong, my goal was never to bash the book, I still plan on buying one, but I'm waiting till they get these bugs worked out.

The whole reason I spent this much time on this topic is I want me to be wrong. I want to believe that the 12 is solid, because when it is, I will buy it.

But as I said in my first post, in my opinion, they are not as sturdy as at first thought.

[badnewsblair]

I'm commenting on what "penmanila" said about revision A products. A few weeks ago, a few individuals started raving to the forum that revision A products were destined to fail and that basically stated, all that bought the revision A were uninformed buyers. This just proves them wrong in my opinion. The 17-inch will be my first Mac and I hope those individuals are all wrong and penmanila is right (we'll see though). Fight the power!

[badnewsblair]

... and may I add, I have seen two 12-inchers and one of which had the stuck button. Easily fixed with a visit to the store. An <i>annoyance</i> at it's worse. If I didn't need the power and features (and screen realestate!) of the 17-inch, I would have had the portability of the 12 already! It's a great little book (thinking about buying one for my girlfriend eventually... heheheh).

[Homan]

So far I'm pretty happy with my 12" PB. I've only had it a month, but I've used it almost every day since I bought it.

[PeterKG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:
[B]Just to do an unscientific study, I drove around to 3 compusa's tonight, 1 fry's, 1 Power Mac Pack, and every single one had a 12 inch on display, and every single one had something wong with it.

Fry's = Missing key

Compusa 1 = Sticking trackpad, wobble, bad fit on close

Compusa 2 - Sticky trackpad, wobble

Compusa 3 =Missing screw, bad fit close

Powermac pack - Bad fit case

So my numbers say there is obviously a problem, Your mileage may vary.



InCompetentUSA has all laptops locked in braces to avoid theft. How were you able to close the lids?

If anyone has been to a Fry's and seen how awful they maintain floor models would not be suprised about a missing key that a CUSTOMER either stole or pulled it off.

You drove around to 4 stores to try to prove a point? Why? I think you have another agenda here.

I don't buy a word of what you say.

[BkueKanoodle]

If you ask they will take it out of the cage.

Floor models tend to show how a model is going to hold up to repeated abuse. None of the other models we're missing parts.

And it wasn't to prove a point, it was to prove to myself I was wrong, so I could take away the excuse I was using for not buying one.

You don't have too buy what i say, but that doesn't make you right.

Lets put it another way, how many think thats Apple's Rev A products seem to be less then perfect?

[penmanila]

just to bring more perspective into the issue, we could ask if any revision was ever perfect, and free of its own little set of problems. of course, rev A products tend to have perhaps more manufacturing problems than succeeding ones. (in the tibook's case, i think it was in fact the rev B's that had the worst cases of flaking paint.)

but the simple fact is, if there wasn't a rev A that people could actually buy and use and test--and complain about, for any problems found--there wouldn't be a better rev B to address those problems on top of new added or improved features. so it's us rev A people who are actually, willingly assuming the burden of product improvement for everybody else. we get and pay for the gratification of being early adopters.

like everyone else, i feel i deserve a 100% perfect machine for the money i paid. but realistically, i know that here and there a problem might arise with the first batch of anything. the only question is, are the problems tolerable, repairable, and subject to a speedy refund or exchange if they're unreasonably bad?

if i waited for a rev C of anything, i wouldn't have gotten any of my work done--and i'd have been the last to hold a machine now overdue for an upgrade to hopefully something better, at least in terms of specs: the next rev A.

[superfoo]

Originally posted by PeterKG:
InCompetentUSA has all laptops locked in braces to avoid theft. How were you able to close the lids?

If anyone has been to a Fry's and seen how awful they maintain floor models would not be suprised about a missing key that a CUSTOMER either stole or pulled it off.

You drove around to 4 stores to try to prove a point? Why? I think you have another agenda here.

I don't buy a word of what you say. [/B]

Honestly. Why do you think he started this thread? For no reason other than to make the 12" look bad? What would he have to gain by doing that?

I have been contemplating purchasing a 12" myself, and in fact posted a thread asking the same question earlier this week, as I had a similar concern (see "12" AlBook a Lemon?").

The fact is, the traffic on this board regarding the 12" does give way to some concern in so far as build quality of this particular system... I have not been a Mac user long enough to see what a rev. A anything is usually like, but if they're all like this, it certainly doesn't look like they're very well tested.

I have an 867MHz PowerBook that I purchased the very day they were updated. This is my first Mac, and after only about 4 months of having this machine, I find that I am going to have to send it in for repairs due to a bad video card. The week or so that I will be without my workstation is going to be a PAIN... if I did not have another laptop to move my data to until my PB is fixed, I would be completely SOL. Hence why I created the thread I mentioned above; If I'm going to buy another Apple laptop, I certainly don't want to go through the same ordeal with the second one, too.

Apple's lack of 24/7 support (for products other than servers), and the unavailiblity of any kind of on-site service or local repair center option (the Apple Store doesn't seem to do much of anything when it comes to repairs.), even for an additional charge, makes hardware issues an even greater concern, as this means more downtime, and, in some cases, even repeat trips back to Apple for jobs that weren't done right in the first place.

That said, shouldn't the these type of pre-sale concerns be something worth actually addressing, rather than something to ridicule? Perhaps there really are quality issues that Apple is doing a poor job of controlling and/or addressing?

[Nawoo]

Originally posted by superfoo:
Honestly. Why do you think he started this thread? For no reason other than to make the 12" look bad? What would he have to gain by doing that?

I have been contemplating purchasing a 12" myself, and in fact posted a thread asking the same question earlier this week, as I had a similar concern (see "12" AlBook a Lemon?").

The fact is, the traffic on this board regarding the 12" does give way to some concern in so far as build quality of this particular system... I have not been a Mac user long enough to see what a rev. A anything is usually like, but if they're all like this, it certainly doesn't look like they're very well tested.

I have an 867MHz PowerBook that I purchased the very day they were updated. This is my first Mac, and after only about 4 months of having this machine, I find that I am going to have to send it in for repairs due to a bad video card. The week or so that I will be without my workstation is going to be a PAIN... if I did not have another laptop to move my data to until my PB is fixed, I would be completely SOL. Hence why I created the thread I mentioned above; If I'm going to buy another Apple laptop, I certainly don't want to go through the same ordeal with the second one, too.

Apple's lack of 24/7 support (for products other than servers), and the unavailiblity of any kind of on-site service or local repair center option (the Apple Store doesn't seem to do much of anything when it comes to repairs.), even for an additional charge, makes hardware issues an even greater concern, as this means more downtime, and, in some cases, even repeat trips back to Apple for jobs that weren't done right in the first place.

That said, shouldn't the these type of pre-sale concerns be something worth actually addressing, rather than something to ridicule? Perhaps there really are quality issues that Apple is doing a poor job of controlling and/or addressing?

Well said , my man

[mikerally]

The whole reason I spent this much time on this topic is I want me to be wrong. I want to believe that the 12 is solid, because when it is, I will buy it.

Like any new product just rolling off the production line, there will always be minor problems for a few.

My 12 inch Powerbook G4 does have a couple of very mild issues with fit and finish - but they don't compromise the integrity and functionality of the machine.

That said, this is always expected, I know about dozen people who own Titanium Powerbook G4's right from Revision A to the very latest version - and throughout every version - I always spot a minor problem or two - I won't go into a list.

I guess it comes down to being very picky VS. having a geniune problem - it bothers some people to have the slightest thing wrong no matter what - and some people are so laid back they don't even worry about the big ones (I know someone who doesn't seem to care that some of their paint is flaking - as far as they're concerned the machine is just for work anyway).

It all depends on what kind of person you are - I'm picky about things like dead pixels and such - I was lucky enough to have none.
I examined the fit and finish of the Powerbook, and any problems I found were so mild that I forgot about them quickly - not to mention none of my friends ever notices them.

[darren h]

Firstly, I will start by saying I really like my 12" book, it is a very impressive machine, my first Mac for many years.

However, it is not without it's downsides, I have the slightly larger gap one side when the lid is shut, the fit between the plastic and metal above the open catch is not good (bulges out), the battery does'nt fit flush and the keyboard has the bowing that has been mentioned elsewhere.

Yes I would expect a perfect product for the amount of money it cost, unfortunately, I am resigned to the fact that this will never happen with any product. My new car went back at least six times in the first year to fix 'minor' irritations. If I sit here and look at something as simple as my table lamp, I can find 'fit and finish' that is not 'perfect'.

The 12" book is not an ugly lump of black plastic, the way it is designed means that the tolerences are small, any 'problem' like an ill fitting battery will stand out, If I look at my girlfriends Sony, some of the problems are the same, only less noticable as it is ugly black plastic.

Full marks to Apple for pushing the boundries of what is excepted. They have raised the bar for product design yet again and should continue to do so. There will be casualties along the way but if that is the price we must pay for better function and looks from our products then so be it.

Every time someone new sees my book they always comment on how smart it is, to me that says it all.

[suprz's ghost]

It's always amazing to me that people buy rev a machines and then either get angry when they have bugs or break etc..... i have a rev a machine myself (B&W G3) and i know all it's bugs and i knew it getting into it (i got it free so i live with it) i personally would not buy a rev a, but if i did i would just accept it would have problems and buy an applecare policy and be prepared to deal with the bug etc...but as someone here said "i dont believe a word you say" or something like that, i say you are either a fool or an eternal optimist.(almost the same thing) rev a will have problems THAT'S THE TRUTH

[icruise]

Originally posted by suprz's ghost:
It's always amazing to me that people buy rev a machines and then either get angry when they have bugs or break etc..... i have a rev a machine myself (B&W G3) and i know all it's bugs and i knew it getting into it (i got it free so i live with it) i personally would not buy a rev a, but if i did i would just accept it would have problems and buy an applecare policy and be prepared to deal with the bug etc...but as someone here said "i dont believe a word you say" or something like that, i say you are either a fool or an eternal optimist.(almost the same thing) rev a will have problems THAT'S THE TRUTH

Let me first say that I don't agree with the premise of this thread at all. On the whole I don't think the new books are any different the others have been in the past.

But to say that people are fools to expect a good quality product from a rev. A machine is total BS. We totally have the right to get upset if there are problems with our machines.

[Loco Bozo]

Originally posted by suprz's ghost:
It's always amazing to me that people buy rev a machines and then either get angry when they have bugs or break etc..... i have a rev a machine myself (B&W G3) and i know all it's bugs and i knew it getting into it (i got it free so i live with it) i personally would not buy a rev a, but if i did i would just accept it would have problems and buy an applecare policy and be prepared to deal with the bug etc...but as someone here said "i dont believe a word you say" or something like that, i say you are either a fool or an eternal optimist.(almost the same thing) rev a will have problems THAT'S THE TRUTH

You really don't expect people who just dropped $1500-3000 on machine NOT to be upset when it doesn't work properly? I think that's unrealistic.

Whether or not it is objectively reasonable, people expect something that's brand new to work perfectly. When it doesn't, whether or not you deem it reasonable, they will be upset. In any case, the consumer still loses out, since he or she has run around and deal with getting the laptop in for repair, and being without it for several days.

I was pretty annoyed that a key feel off my new 12" AlBook and that the trackpad button stuck. Apple has been building laptops for 10+ years, and these type of problems should have been solved years ago. New software or hardware bugs are a separate issue as far as I'm concerned, but these are mechanical and quality control problems, rather than issues with new technology, that should have been solved before these machines shipped.

Despite my annoyance, I'm very happy with my AlBook. It a great little machine.

[chrisutley]

I have purchased at least 5 Rev A machines from Apple over the years (3 laptops), and not a single one of them had a problem that required replacement or repair.

The number of different problems the 12" PowerBook is reported to have is not normal, is not acceptable, and should not be expected. Apple needs to be held to higher standards than that, and I know they can do better than that.

What do you think all these replacements and repairs is doing to their ~28% margins? They must be hemorrhaging cash the way they repair and replace the old TiBooks and the new 12". Shipping both ways, parts, and labor - ouch.

My 667 DVI has 3 different problems, all of which require service in Houston. There's still a chance they could work the bugs out of the AI books, making them far more reliable than the TiBooks ever were, but I wouldn't count on it.

Did I mention I love my TiBook and will buy an AI Book soon? As long as Apple stands behind the products and repairs them, I will keep buying them. I'd be happier and Apple would have more money if they could ship them with fewer defects.

Originally posted by suprz's ghost:
It's always amazing to me that people buy rev a machines and then either get angry when they have bugs or break etc..... i have a rev a machine myself (B&W G3) and i know all it's bugs and i knew it getting into it (i got it free so i live with it) i personally would not buy a rev a, but if i did i would just accept it would have problems and buy an applecare policy and be prepared to deal with the bug etc...but as someone here said "i dont believe a word you say" or something like that, i say you are either a fool or an eternal optimist.(almost the same thing) rev a will have problems THAT'S THE TRUTH

[ghost_flash]

Been to 3 apple stores and played with all the 12" powerbooks.

Of all the powerbooks totalling 6, I have yet to come across one that had any problems. Not hot, just warm like any other laptop.
Picture was terrific, keyboard fantastic! great feedback to my fingers as opposed to the Titanium which was too mushy for me.

[suprz's ghost]

o.k. let me clarify,

most people will realize and agree that based upon apples track record with rev a machines that there will probably be a GOOD chance there will be flaws in any rev a machine. i am not saying that you dont have the right to be upset, hell, i'd be pissed!!! but i impatiently wait for the next revision in order for all the initial bugs and flaws to be worked through. all i wanted to say is that even though you paid good money for your machine, if it is a rev a it is bound to have bugs and flaws. if you know that going into the game, you have to be willing to deal with it.

i wasnt calling anyone a crybaby,or anything like that (maybe fool was too strong a word)

[BkueKanoodle]

Just to keep this thread hopping..

Does anyone thing that apples decision to use Metal cases for their laptops, while making the machine look cool, also lends itself to problems inherit in the use of metal for laptops? (ie denting, warping, heat transference)

Do you think apple should try and find a different material for their cases? I know metal has its advantages, but having used and managed 1000's of laptops of various laptops over the years, Plastic seems to handle day to day use better then the metal cases.

Yes metal looks cooler, but shouldn't a laptop be more rugged? I'd like to hear peoples opinions without being attacked for heresy, or labeled a troll.

[ph0ust]

since few people are actually posting their answer to the original question, i am curious about something else:

why the hell are so many apple users blindly defensive about apple regardless of what is being discussed? are most of you guys the little kids that got picked on in school and are now over compensating or something? i mean come on, it is hard to get through a single post around here without someone asking why another person made a complaint, and then flaming them?

is apple cool? yes.

do they screw up like every other company in the world? of course.

[BkueKanoodle]

Originally posted by ph0ust:
since few people are actually posting their answer to the original question, i am curious about something else:

why the hell are so many apple users blindly defensive about apple regardless of what is being discussed? are most of you guys the little kids that got picked on in school and are now over compensating or something? i mean come on, it is hard to get through a single post around here without someone asking why another person made a complaint, and then flaming them?

is apple cool? yes.

do they screw up like every other company in the world? of course.

Think Different.

Unless you think different then everybody else in the Cult of Apple, then your wrong.

[bamchum]

I remember when the 12" and 17" were announced at MacWorld and there was much gnashing of teeth on the part of those, like me, who had recently purchased 15" 1Ghz TiBooks. This was especially so given that the original 15" models had, as everyone knows, serious problems with fan noise.

At the time, a lot of people cancelled their orders for 15" TiBooks and placed orders for the new machines. Some indulged in a little gloating at their good fortune, crowing with 20/20 hindsight about how foolish we all were to have bought machines a few weeks before MacWorld (even if the machine had only been announced a few weeks before). At the time, in this thread, someone posted some pictures of apparently warped screens on 12" and 17" aluminum PBs at MacWorld. Yet the very possibility of warped screens was ferociously denied by those who didn't want to believe the pictures: the problems couldn't have been with the machines but must have been with the way the pictures were taken, they said. But the person who posted the pictures also wrote these sage words:

And whether or not the machines in these pictures display manufacturing defects, my main point still stands, I believe. Namely, that it's a mistake to think that the new PBs will resolve all of the outstanding problems of the TiBooks without introducing new ones. They may well have manufacturing defects, poorly-fitted parts, loud fans and even warped screens. Especially as this is an entirely new design.

Just as some are advising (ex post facto) that one should never buy before MacWorld, I would advise that one should think long and hard before buying the first iteration of a powerbook.

Am I now glad I bought my TiBook in December? Absolutely. Is it a great machine? Yes. Were there problems? Yes, notably the fan noise, but it has been fixed by Apple.

I wonder what kinds of problems are going to crop up with the 17"? Anyone want to bet where screen warpage will rank among them? I'm guessing it'll get top billing.

[icruise]

Originally posted by bamchum:
At the time, in this thread, someone posted some pictures of apparently warped screens on 12" and 17" aluminum PBs at MacWorld. Yet the very possibility of warped screens was ferociously denied by those who didn't want to believe the pictures: the problems couldn't have been with the machines but must have been with the way the pictures were taken, they said.

That was a total red herring. The person who took the pictures (who is a Japanese man I know who is very concerned with just about every conceivable detail of the powerbooks) said absolutely nothing regarding "warping." No one else who saw the 17" powerbooks in person has mentioned any "warping." The picture was to show the thinness of the powerbook, not to show off some problem. If there was any warping in the picture, it was due to a crappy digital camera. I can't believe I'm still talking about it.

That doesn't mean it is impossible that the 17" will have that sort of problem, but you can't make that kind of determination from one picture.

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by Icruise:
That was a total red herring. The person who took the pictures (who is a Japanese man I know who is very concerned with just about every conceivable detail of the powerbooks) said absolutely nothing regarding "warping." No one else who saw the 17" powerbooks in person has mentioned any "warping." The picture was to show the thinness of the powerbook, not to show off some problem. If there was any warping in the picture, it was due to a crappy digital camera. I can't believe I'm still talking about it.

That doesn't mean it is impossible that the 17" will have that sort of problem, but you can't make that kind of determination from one picture.

I agree: and I speak as a professional digital specialist.
I've used medium end equipment before and they even have terrible macro distortion when you get up close you are getting more of a fisheye effect. Better off using a high resolution image at a further distance and then increase the size and crop in photoshop.

[chrisutley]

Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:
Does anyone thing that apples decision to use Metal cases for their laptops, while making the machine look cool, also lends itself to problems inherit in the use of metal for laptops? (ie denting, warping, heat transference)

Yes, I think it lends itself to some problems. However, I think the G4 laptops get so hot they may not have a choice, as the metal cases function like a big heatsink. Just a hunch...

[peternj]

Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:
Sound a tad bit defensive there. Maybe I hit to close to home.

My point was to ask if looking at the types of problems that are popping up, maybe the 12 inch isn't the sturdy laptop it was made out to be.

I had to get 3 powerbooks to get one that was not either warped or the screen damaged, I'm now on a 3rd that seems to be okay. There is the slightest of warps on the right side in that it's a paper width off from lid pad to palm rest when shut.

But other than that it's pretty nice. But please never buy from a reseller. The Apple Store in NYC were fantastic in changing it 3 times. By fantastic until the store my normal experience has been a tough luck attitude from resellers,

There is a quality control problem. And I would not like to see my powerbook roughly handled. The warp would get worse.

The best lid and perfect case had a screen that every time you opened it would ripple in one area like a stone in a pond. the next had a warp that made shutting the case hard to impossible. And the warp was nearly a quarter inch on the right side.

The third had a corrupted OS and had to be clean installed and as I mention the lid is slightly raised on the right side.

[Sarah31]

hmm i have been observing this thread for quite some time now and i have to say that anyone who has gotten a defective product should do what is right and return it for replacement. as for problems....well what do expect this is a forum 90% of the posts here are problems a forum is not a means of gauging the quality of a product.

at the numbers they are producing these at (from my understanding talking with apple they are in very high demand) very high rate. and my gues would be that sure there are problems with the odd product here and there. if that is the case those who get the few that are out there just return them. if it is putting you out and you can't then STHU it is not our issue or apple's.

for the guy that used store demos as an example of quailty. get real. i suppose your would complain to a publisher if a magazine in a rack at your general store was ripped? come on demos get man handled why the heck do you think they get sold for so damn cheap?

i use self put together PCs and based on the reviews and comments on forums you would think that my boxes would not even fire up. but to tell you the truth they are solid as rocks. nary an issue with them.

as for 24/7 service. would be nice but apple chose to sacrifice some service for the benefit cost wise of us all. hell i get better 8+ hour service from them then 24/7 service from the helpdesk of my isp.once they learn i use linux they basically hang up.

personally i can't wait to get my powerbook. if it has flaws i will return it. no skin off my hump and it definitely helps apple improve their design and production of their product.i sure won't judge the entire 12" line by my one measely powerbook. but honestly i don't expect any issues as i have never been let down by apple.

fwiw when i talked to apple yesterday to find out when to expect my book to ship i asked directly about complaints on the 12" and i was candidly told that to the knowledge of the person attending my call that there were no major issues reported on the 12". just standard reports which mean that the overall quality of the majority of the 12" pb is good.

just my 2 cents.

[Mac Zealot]

Actually this is a forum of blind zealots like me

Now to answer that question in the topic? Yes. They are.

[mikerally]

The number of different problems the 12" PowerBook is reported to have is not normal, is not acceptable, and should not be expected. Apple needs to be held to higher standards than that, and I know they can do better than that.

I don't understand this, I must be very lucky, because I don't find any problems with my 12 inch Powerbook - and I'd expect that I represent the vast majority of users who probably did not even bother to visit this forum because they had nothing to complain about.

Remember, just because you hear a ton of problems in this Forum, it doesn't mean that's what the majority of people experience.

And I have to say I'm actually impressed, my 12 inch Powerbook was one of the first off the line, manufactured literally weeks before I got it - and for such a sophisticated design and build, *very* little has gone wrong!

[skyman]

Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:
Just to do an unscientific study, I drove around to 3 compusa's tonight, 1 fry's, 1 Power Mac Pack, and every single one had a 12 inch on display, and every single one had something wong with it.

Fry's = Missing key

Compusa 1 = Sticking trackpad, wobble, bad fit on close

Compusa 2 - Sticky trackpad, wobble

Compusa 3 =Missing screw, bad fit close

Powermac pack - Bad fit case

So my numbers say there is obviously a problem, Your mileage may vary.

Don't get me wrong, my goal was never to bash the book, I still plan on buying one, but I'm waiting till they get these bugs worked out.

The whole reason I spent this much time on this topic is I want me to be wrong. I want to believe that the 12 is solid, because when it is, I will buy it.

But as I said in my first post, in my opinion, they are not as sturdy as at first thought.

You do realize these display units get the shi7 beat out of them?

You do realize these displays units never (ok very rarely) get any attention from the store employees?

You do realize that these display units gets more use in one day then you could possibly put on your PowerBook in a week?

Honestly, you can not and should not base your opinion of the durability of a product based on the display models.

[Raidiant]

Why don't we look to the fact that apple produces these laptops in somewhere where you would never want to spend a day in. I've been to one of those factories, it nearly made me puke. However you'd be glad to know that electronic manufacturers have way better working conditions then most other factories.

Also don't we all know that laptops are known to be more problem prone then desktops. The LCD being the problem that haunts me all the time.

Unscientifictly we can simply look at the ibook forums and realize how little problems the ibooks have in comparison to the sales ratio. Which I believe the ibook is one of apple's top selling products. So in conclusion I would say that the powerbooks have more problems.

I would say the buyers of the 12 inch powerbooks are risking a 50/50 chance of failure. From my own purchasing experience this seem to apply to alot of apple products recently, the ibook I had earlier had a massive stuck pixel failure took me two weeks to fix it.

[JVB_2112]

Originally posted by Raidiant:
I would say the buyers of the 12 inch powerbooks are risking a 50/50 chance of failure. From my own purchasing experience this seem to apply to alot of apple products recently, the ibook I had earlier had a massive stuck pixel failure took me two weeks to fix it.

Give me a break a 50/50 chance of failure? Can you please provide you extensive market research to back up this claim?

That's too bad about the stuck pixel you encountered on your iBook, but dead pixels are one of the most common issues customers have with any device that utilizes an LCD. Did you know that on a 1024x768 LCD there are just over 2 million pixels each controlled with their own transistor. That's a large number of possible points of failure, and one of the reasons why LCD's are not perfect. Your bad pixel experience is no indicator that there is a 50/50 chance of failure for 12" Powerbooks, or any other Apple product for that matter.

In the past year I have bought 3 new Apple computers, and I have my forth on order. All of which have been free of defects. Two of my friends have also received new Apple computers this past year, both of which were perfectly normal. So see, it's not all bad news.

JVB

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by JVB_2112:
Did you know that on a 1024x768 LCD there are just over 2 million pixels each controlled with their own transistor.

That's *three* transistors per pixel (each for red, green, and blue). About SEVEN MILLION transistors.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:
Fry's = Missing key

Can't speak for the others, but dealers here in Germany have told me that they have to keep their Apple laptops under glass, because Wintel *******s keep ripping off keys.

-s*

[elvis2000]

Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:
If you ask they will take it out of the cage.

Floor models tend to show how a model is going to hold up to repeated abuse. None of the other models we're missing parts.

And it wasn't to prove a point, it was to prove to myself I was wrong, so I could take away the excuse I was using for not buying one.

You don't have too buy what i say, but that doesn't make you right.

Lets put it another way, how many think thats Apple's Rev A products seem to be less then perfect?

The faithful can deny deny deny -- but I chose to hold on a purchase based on seeing 3 of 3 display models here in Cleveland with issues. Sticky trackpads -- poor fit and finish, etc. Wondering if I'm a fool sticking with Apple since '93.

jw

[JVB_2112]

Originally posted by elvis2000:
Wondering if I'm a fool sticking with Apple since '93.

jw

Yes, you're a fool for sticking with Apple since '93 since you have seen 3 Powerbooks with issues.

JVB

[b11051973]

I've had my 12" PB for about a month and don't have any complaints.

[escher]

Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:
Do you think apple should try and find a different material for their cases?

To state the obvious, Apple has found a different material for its cases. The iBooks are built of Lexan (?) plastic and are thus very rugged. But the iBook's enclosure is not perfect either. Plastic is elastic.

For example, the screen on my May 2001 iBook/500 is bent down from the hinge. In other words, when the iBook is closed, there is more clearance between screen and main body at the hinge, while the screen touches the body in the corners. Because the enclosure is plastic, I can't bend it into shape. If the enclosure were metal, e.g. Aluminum, I could bend it into shape and it would stay that way.

My point is, no case material is perfect. All case materials have advantages and disadvantages that vary with circumstances and use.

Escher