[l'ignorante]

When I was in the war: (25 years ago and it was a cold one) we had these gasmasks that seemed to me already then more of a Jules Verne fantasy than a useful instrument against anything really small and nasty. But, 25 years of war technology development later, soldiers still look like they're about to jump from the trenches and fight the Germans with spikes on their helmets.
this one is almost 100 years old:
.
it doesn't look that much different from what the soldiers in Irak are using.
Don't get me wrong: I'm probably the only pro-war European, it's just does masks, they could at least have updated the designs.

[macvillage.net]

I don't know about the masks our soldiers are using... but I read somewhere that most of the masks given to civilians in the past (Israeli's, and such) are about as effective as coffee filters during most situations. They wouldn't filter out what would most likely be in the bomb... They would be good for 9/11 like debris (asbestos and dust)

Not to mention, like all gas masks... they don't have a long shelf life. Gas mask filters need to be replaced after a little while, regardless of use.

I remember the first time my Cl2 savvy mask crapped out on me. I was refilling a chlorinator of an indoor pool... in a tiny pumproom.. with PPG3 tabs... The fumes from that are unlike anything. Outdoors are a different story... DIfferent tabs, not nearly as bad.

Boy is is freaky to know your mask is crapping out. And I didn't even get a good breath in... Just a hint of an odor, and I was out of there... no harm... but a scare none the less. Ugh.

[daimoni]

.

[engaged]

I can only speak from what I knew several (ten or so) years ago - I've still got mine somewhere.

They (at least the British ones) are much better than that; they come in several different sizes, the lenses can be made with prescriptions for those that wear glasses, and there's a drinking tube that you can use with special containers.

Can't comment on the NBCD suits though.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by l'ignorante:
I'm probably the only pro-war European,

Hmm. Mind if ask why? We have all heard the American POV. As a European, what is yours? Why are you pro-war?

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by daimoni:
I say we need new masks with spikes on the top. Now that would be fierce!

[holygoat]

A UK newspaper recently reported that the gas masks provided to British troops in the Gulf are past their manufacturer shelf life. The MoD (presumably after testing) have extended it by a further five years.

The same goes for another item of equipment, I can't remember which. But it's not particularly reassuring for the troops: "Yes, the manufacturer wouldn't guarantee it to last this long, but your bosses do, so it's OK".

[Nicko]

How about something like this?

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by holygoat:
A UK newspaper recently reported that the gas masks provided to British troops in the Gulf are past their manufacturer shelf life. The MoD (presumably after testing) have extended it by a further five years.

The same goes for another item of equipment, I can't remember which. But it's not particularly reassuring for the troops: "Yes, the manufacturer wouldn't guarantee it to last this long, but your bosses do, so it's OK".

Having been in a silly situation with a mask that went bad... it's scairy. Forget about when in a situation with no easy escape like I had. I just had to walk out the room to a hallway with open doors and windows. They don't have that capability.

I would have a panic attack with that mask on.

The mask makes you feel pretty cool. Muffles your voice, hear your breath. It makes you feel like Darth Vador or something. It's a neat thing... especially when you know there is poison in the air...

But when you can't trust it... Yikes.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
But when you can't trust it... Yikes.

That's why the US military makes you go into a gas chamber full of CS gas. The idea is to give you confidence.

The newer mask the US has is much better than the older M-79. You can change the filter while wearing it and it is easier to shoot with. The filter can also be set for left handed firing. It's also much easier to breathe in the newer mask, and you can "pant" in it. The older one resricted your breathing so you would almost pass out if you ran.

They still suck though. I wouldn't want to wear one again.

[RAILhead]

Here's a pic of the current masks.

I believe it's model 8025-USMIL (formerly named Model 8025-M17).

Here's a direct download link to the spec PDF.

Maury

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
That's why the US military makes you go into a gas chamber full of CS gas. The idea is to give you confidence.

The newer mask the US has is much better than the older M-79. You can change the filter while wearing it and it is easier to shoot with. The filter can also be set for left handed firing. It's also much easier to breathe in the newer mask, and you can "pant" in it. The older one resricted your breathing so you would almost pass out if you ran.

They still suck though. I wouldn't want to wear one again.

But there is no mask that can truly block any hazard.... so military planners can only make good guesses as to what's in saddams missles. Especially true with chemical agents. A filter can block one very well... and not even touch another.


Besides. Doubt your going into a chamber with an outdated mask...

But what's the expiration date on the masks used in Iraq right now?

Fact is, if someone dies in those chambers... The US Army takes the heat. If it happens in warfare... Iraq takes the heat.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
But there is no mask that can truly block any hazard.... so military planners can only make good guesses as to what's in saddams missles. Especially true with chemical agents. A filter can block one very well... and not even touch another.


Besides. Doubt your going into a chamber with an outdated mask...

But what's the expiration date on the masks used in Iraq right now?

Fact is, if someone dies in those chambers... The US Army takes the heat. If it happens in warfare... Iraq takes the heat.

I don't know where you are getting your information from, but the mask currently in service is pretty new. They came out just a few months before I left the Army, so I'm not as familiar with them as I am the older M-17, but the newer mask is much better.

I don't know about masks in the British Army but US masks don't have expiration dates. The filters are replaceable. There are training ones that only work for CS, and then there are the real ones that work for the real agents. You don't get those unless you are going in combat. Those filters do have an expiration date, so you have to replace them periodically.

The mask itself is simply inspected and maintained in the usual course of business. It's not something that really wears out, but if you were to damage one (hard to do, they are pretty sturdy), you simply get another one. It isn't as if they are in short supply.

Nobody gets killed in the gas chamber in basic training because the gas used in training is just CS. Of course, the masks and the rest of the MOPP suit has been tested for live agents, but that isn't something ordinary infantry troops do. Nevertheless, I would be fairly confident wearing one in a chemical zone, although I wouldn't exactly be happy about being in such a zone.

The main problem with operating in a chemical environment is the logistics of decontamination afterwards. Even a hasty decontamination takes a couple of hours per company of troops, during which the troops are fairly immobile and vulnerable. You train how to do that, but it is still a significant issue.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I don't know where you are getting your information from, but the mask currently in service is pretty new. They came out just a few months before I left the Army, so I'm not as familiar with them as I am the older M-17, but the newer mask is much better.

I don't know about masks in the British Army but US masks don't have expiration dates. The filters are replaceable. There are training ones that only work for CS, and then there are the real ones that work for the real agents. You don't get those unless you are going in combat. Those filters do have an expiration date, so you have to replace them periodically.

The mask itself is simply inspected and maintained in the usual course of business. It's not something that really wears out, but if you were to damage one (hard to do, they are pretty sturdy), you simply get another one. It isn't as if they are in short supply.

Nobody gets killed in the gas chamber in basic training because the gas used in training is just CS. Of course, the masks and the rest of the MOPP suit has been tested for live agents, but that isn't something ordinary infantry troops do. Nevertheless, I would be fairly confident wearing one in a chemical zone, although I wouldn't exactly be happy about being in such a zone.

The main problem with operating in a chemical environment is the logistics of decontamination afterwards. Even a hasty decontamination takes a couple of hours per company of troops, during which the troops are fairly immobile and vulnerable. You train how to do that, but it is still a significant issue.

My point is, a fiter is only good for certain agents. There is no true "universal filter"... hence one that works for certain gasses, is ineffective on others. So while the US can make a very good guess based on intelegence what's in Saddams bombs... they can never ensure 100% protection. If Saddam was clever.. he would use something different, to alter the chemical makeup... and render the filters ineffective. That is the scairy part. Having a mask for one chemical, when it is possible, however remote it is, that a completely different chemical could be unleashed.

Bio is somewhat different, it's more of a "universal" mask.

Masks don't really expire (they are rubber and plastic)...as long as they don't get cracked or damaged, they should be good forever really... But the filters do.

Not to mention defects... the military has a reputation of small defects in gear (I heard the other day, some of the suits issued for protection came in kits where some got 2 pants... good they realized early when they could fix those up before anyone could be effected). Granted that chance is tiny, and the reason for the reputation is simply the bulk that they supply... thousands and thousands... of course there are a few mistakes.


But still... one has to hope the intellegence was good enough to find out exactly what Saddam could put in a bomb.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
My point is, a fiter is only good for certain agents. There is no true "universal filter"... hence one that works for certain gasses, is ineffective on others. So while the US can make a very good guess based on intelegence what's in Saddams bombs... they can never ensure 100% protection. If Saddam was clever.. he would use something different, to alter the chemical makeup... and render the filters ineffective. That is the scairy part. Having a mask for one chemical, when it is possible, however remote it is, that a completely different chemical could be unleashed.

Bio is somewhat different, it's more of a "universal" mask.

Masks don't really expire (they are rubber and plastic)...as long as they don't get cracked or damaged, they should be good forever really... But the filters do.

Not to mention defects... the military has a reputation of small defects in gear (I heard the other day, some of the suits issued for protection came in kits where some got 2 pants... good they realized early when they could fix those up before anyone could be effected). Granted that chance is tiny, and the reason for the reputation is simply the bulk that they supply... thousands and thousands... of course there are a few mistakes.


But still... one has to hope the intellegence was good enough to find out exactly what Saddam could put in a bomb.

Sure, nothing in war is 100% and being a soldier in wartime is a dangerous occupation. And as you say, defects can exist in equipment and the enemy can't be counted upon to cooperate with your defenses.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't exaggerate too much. I don't know how the chemistry works out in a mask filter, but I know they are tested against the likely agents. I sincerely doubt that Iraq is on the cutting edge of WMD technology. They probably don't possess anything really novel.

[OB1]

My only gas mask experience was when we connected one to a bong. We used to like torturing each other like that when we were 15.